Naruto VI: HASHIRAMAAAAAA!!!!!! [spoilers]

[Kato]

I guess I might as well go with the general consensus... Also, shame on the two lazy people :smalltongue:

Ahem: This Thread is for discussion of Hashi... Masashi Kishimoto's Naruto manga (and anime). Please be careful since most posters are usually up to date with the most recent scanlations and except directly following a new release spoiler tags will sparcely be used.

The previous thread can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259286)

Madara, please have the honor to welcome our readers:
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/113/9/7/madara_chapter_628_by_kortrex-d62rlmx.png
Credit to Masashi Kishimoto and Kortrex @ deviant art

[Kato]

Regarding new chapter:

Yay, flashy action. Not really too much more except a nice call back to... what, four hundred chapters ago? I'm still glad they did make use of it. And... I'm pretty sure nothing is over yet...

And neither will Oro suddenly turn into the villain again.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Much as I love Madara's mug that pagestretch is terrible.

[LaZodiac]

So....Orochimaru comes across the torn in half Tsunade. Interesting. And some hints that Sasuke isn't 100% good. I'm happier about this.

[Morph Bark]

zombietsunadeplz /jk

[KnightDisciple]

So....Orochimaru comes across the torn in half Tsunade. Interesting. And some hints that Sasuke isn't 100% good. I'm happier about this.
Hm.
Wasn't the last time Tsunade did the 'heal everyone' bit, during the Pein invasion? And it basically drained her?
I ask because Sakura seems to be coping pretty well. Not even really showing exhaustion.
....I wonder if that means she's got ungodly huge reserves now that the seal's finished building up?

[darksolitaire]

Hm.
Wasn't the last time Tsunade did the 'heal everyone' bit, during the Pein invasion? And it basically drained her?
I ask because Sakura seems to be coping pretty well. Not even really showing exhaustion.
....I wonder if that means she's got ungodly huge reserves now that the seal's finished building up?

She'd better. She's spent three years building it. And she isn't using chakra to look young :smalltongue:

[LaZodiac]

Hm.
Wasn't the last time Tsunade did the 'heal everyone' bit, during the Pein invasion? And it basically drained her?
I ask because Sakura seems to be coping pretty well. Not even really showing exhaustion.
....I wonder if that means she's got ungodly huge reserves now that the seal's finished building up?

Yha, Tsunade was sent into a brief coma after using it to heal an entire city of people. Sakura is using it to heal an entire army and is totally fine. Sakura's basically super Tsunade.

[Kato]

Yha, Tsunade was sent into a brief coma after using it to heal an entire city of people. Sakura is using it to heal an entire army and is totally fine. Sakura's basically super Tsunade.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uDr9YtEGtcQ/TL2oF3INr5I/AAAAAAAAADY/bBlIeE1gbKw/s1600/frankyfstcover.png

Yeah, everyone is super previous Sannin. But she does have the benefit of youth and not wasting chakra on her appearance.

What made Sasuke look evil? :smallconfused:

[LaZodiac]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uDr9YtEGtcQ/TL2oF3INr5I/AAAAAAAAADY/bBlIeE1gbKw/s1600/frankyfstcover.png

Yeah, everyone is super previous Sannin. But she does have the benefit of youth and not wasting chakra on her appearance.

What made Sasuke look evil? :smallconfused:


His eyes, the shadows used on him, some of his phrasing, Jugo's mysteriousness. There are hints Sasuke is planning SOMETHING.

[Somewhere]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #29:
"[Mutou Burakku] no Nonouesan ga kanzen ni doukyou da to hanmei!! Issho ni ganbarimashou!!"

"It's confirmed that [Mutou Black]'s Nonoue-san is from the same town as I! Let's work hard together!!"

The word 'doukyou' could be either same town or same province. I'm going with town, considering the enthusiasm here.
So, Mutou Black. It's one of the three series in the latest crop of WSJ newbies (Soul Catcher(S) and Smoky B.B. being the other two). Started recently; this next issue should be the.. 5th chapter?
It doesn't seem like anybody serious is scanlating any of these 3 series, oddly enough. So the only thing I know about Mutou Black is what others have said; that it gives some Rurouni Kenshin vibes, but the protagonist uses aikido.

[Olinser]

Yha, Tsunade was sent into a brief coma after using it to heal an entire city of people. Sakura is using it to heal an entire army and is totally fine. Sakura's basically super Tsunade.

The trigger that sent her into a coma was not healing, but shielding everybody from Shinra Tensei.

Also keep in mind when that happened, Tsunade had spent a fairly extended period healing casualties caused by the 6 Pains. She was most definitely not at full chakra to start with, and shielded an entire VILLAGE from a massive attack. I don't know whether we've ever actually gotten an accurate population count of Konoha.

A good portion of the army is already dead, as well, from fighting zetsu and the zombies.

If we say that only half of the army is still in fighting shape (which honestly is probably a generous estimate), then that means Sakura is only healing 40,000 people.

Tsunade, on the other had, was healing and shielding the entire VILLAGE.

Konoha has been stated by Kishimoto to be the biggest of the villages. Even if you say they are all the same size, then Konoha provided 1/5 of the 80,000 ninja (16,000).

If you give them an EXTREMELY HIGH active military participation rate of 10%, that means there are 160,000 people total in the village.

For reference, during World War 2, only 8% of the US population ever served on active duty over the entirety of the war. Currently, the average military participation for countries is less than 1% of their population The most militarized nation on earth right now, North Korea, only has 4% of their population in the military.

So by those estimates, Tsunade healed AND shielded 4 times as many people as Sakura, and over a much longer period of time - AND Sakura has the benefit of leeching the 9-tails chakra.

Sakura is powerful, sure, but she's not even up to Tsunade's level, never mind Naruto and Sasuke.

[LaZodiac]

The trigger that sent her into a coma was not healing, but shielding everybody from Shinra Tensei.

Also keep in mind when that happened, Tsunade had spent a fairly extended period healing casualties caused by the 6 Pains. She was most definitely not at full chakra to start with, and shielded an entire VILLAGE from a massive attack. I don't know whether we've ever actually gotten an accurate population count of Konoha.

A good portion of the army is already dead, as well, from fighting zetsu and the zombies.

If we say that only half of the army is still in fighting shape (which honestly is probably a generous estimate), then that means Sakura is only healing 40,000 people.

Tsunade, on the other had, was healing and shielding the entire VILLAGE.

Konoha has been stated by Kishimoto to be the biggest of the villages. Even if you say they are all the same size, then Konoha provided 1/5 of the 80,000 ninja (16,000).

If you give them an EXTREMELY HIGH active military participation rate of 10%, that means there are 160,000 people total in the village.

For reference, during World War 2, only 8% of the US population ever served on active duty over the entirety of the war. Currently, the average military participation for countries is less than 1% of their population The most militarized nation on earth right now, North Korea, only has 4% of their population in the military.

So by those estimates, Tsunade healed AND shielded 4 times as many people as Sakura, and over a much longer period of time - AND Sakura has the benefit of leeching the 9-tails chakra.

Sakura is powerful, sure, but she's not even up to Tsunade's level, never mind Naruto and Sasuke.

Oh, right! My bad, it's been awhile so I forgot.

[Kato]

If you give them an EXTREMELY HIGH active military participation rate of 10%, that means there are 160,000 people total in the village.


While I don't want to argue with the main point I still feel the need to point out a) this wasn't the whole fire nation but the fire nation's military center, which means a way above average percentage of the population could/would be in the military, like if you take a city that holds a military base you would also easily have a higher percentage than averaged over the whole US (or other country) which results in a possibly lower non-military population in Konoha and b) it's not clear how many people Tsunade actually supported. There is not much point in healing all the civilians if they are already dead or out of danger and thus only supporting the ninja's would make much more sense.

So, overall, I'd say it is hard to say exactly who supported more soldiers with their technique (but I'd assume it's Sakura, or that's what Kishi is trying to make us believe)



@Zodiac: Maybe it's just me having given up on the manga but I don't think Sasuke is plotting anything, except maybe a suicide attack to save the other ninjas. He's given in to the light side of the force...

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'll point out folks that the portion of the Ninja Alliance present at the battle is kinda small.

While not a sure fire method if you go back to chapter 611 and 612 when everybody showed up... looks to be maybe a hundred people or so. Maybe two but certainly still something in three digits. That's before any permanent casualties like Neji's too. So in my estimation we're well under the proactively-healing-an-entire-village-as-a-nuke-countermeasure high watermark. Of course expect Sakura to keep y'know functioning while doing it.

As for Tsunade vs Sakura right now I'd say they are obviously intended as full peers in ability now. I expect its something like in finesse and technical skill Sakura has exceeded Tsunade balanced against Tsunade's higher Senju/Uzumaki baseline. Mitigated further by age differences.

Course both of them share the same crippling weakness that overrides all of that....

[Olinser]

I'll point out folks that the portion of the Ninja Alliance present at the battle is kinda small.

While not a sure fire method if you go back to chapter 611 and 612 when everybody showed up... looks to be maybe a hundred people or so. Maybe two but certainly still something in three digits. That's before any permanent casualties like Neji's too. So in my estimation we're well under the proactively-healing-an-entire-village-as-a-nuke-countermeasure high watermark. Of course expect Sakura to keep y'know functioning while doing it.

As for Tsunade vs Sakura right now I'd say they are obviously intended as full peers in ability now. I expect its something like in finesse and technical skill Sakura has exceeded Tsunade balanced against Tsunade's higher Senju/Uzumaki baseline. Mitigated further by age differences.

Course both of them share the same crippling weakness that overrides all of that....

Their weakness being the token chick on the team?

[Fjolnir]

Orochimaru is about to use SCIENCE!!! to save tsunade isn't he?

[Morph Bark]

Edo!Tsunade incoming.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Their weakness being the token chick on the team?

In a universe of token chicks.

*sigh*

[Kato]

Their weakness being the token chick on the team?
Lacking a Y chromosome is a severe genetic disease in Kishi-verse which results in you being cleraly inferior to any person who does have a Y chromosome. It really is quite heartbreaking to the point where some people lacking it have the problem they go entirely unnoticed no matter their achievements. (I think the name starts with a T and ends with an n...)


Edo!Tsunade incoming.
Hm... maybe he will absorb her through his new Zetsu-body or possibly even give his life to save her?
Okay guys, how much of a **** storm can we expect if Oro uses Old-Sand-woman's (sorry, I forgot her name... something with C?) revival jutsu sacrificing himself for Tsunade because.... old love(?)?

[LaZodiac]

Lacking a Y chromosome is a severe genetic disease in Kishi-verse which results in you being cleraly inferior to any person who does have a Y chromosome. It really is quite heartbreaking to the point where some people lacking it have the problem they go entirely unnoticed no matter their achievements. (I think the name starts with a T and ends with an n...)

Hm... maybe he will absorb her through his new Zetsu-body or possibly even give his life to save her?
Okay guys, how much of a **** storm can we expect if Oro uses Old-Sand-woman's (sorry, I forgot her name... something with C?) revival jutsu sacrificing himself for Tsunade because.... old love(?)?

Ironic given that Y chromosone's are just incomplete X's :smalltongue:

You know, atleast Sakura is getting to do SOMETHING. As you said, Tenten hasn't done jack all, and her specialization is useless in this universe. Hell, all of Team Might Guy, who ARE part of the original Konoha group, didn't get to do anything in that big chapter of the Konoha group doing stuff. Mostly because Neiji is dead.

...if Orochimaru uses Chiyo's revive technique to save Tsunade, I'm not sure how I'll feel about this series anymore.

[Starwulf]

Just posting in thread to mark it ^^

[LaZodiac]

Just posting in thread to mark it ^^

You don't need to post in a thread to subscribe to it. And hey, be part of the community! Tell us your silly thoughts on what antics Orochimaru is going to get up to with Tsunade's severed torso.

[Olinser]

In a universe of token chicks.

*sigh*

Could be worse. They could be in Bleach, where they'd still be token chicks, but also have to carry around massive, gravity-defying racks.

[LaZodiac]

Could be worse. They could be in Bleach, where they'd still be token chicks, but also have to carry around massive, gravity-defying racks.

Unless they're like Rukia and the Doll House chick, in which they're flat as a board.

[darksolitaire]

Tell us your silly thoughts on what antics Orochimaru is going to get up to with Tsunade's severed torso.

Oh god, now you made me think about it. Answer, of course, is snakes!

The real question is what he needs Suigetsu and Karin to be there with him :smalleek:

[LaZodiac]

Oh god, now you made me think about it. Answer, of course, is snakes!

The real question is what he needs Suigetsu and Karin to be there with him :smalleek:

Karin's a health pack, keeping her around is useful.

Suigetsu, no idea. Since Orochimaru has a tree body, maybe he needs his water buddy nearby to water him. Just a joking suggestion :smallbiggrin:

[Olinser]

You don't need to post in a thread to subscribe to it. And hey, be part of the community! Tell us your silly thoughts on what antics Orochimaru is going to get up to with Tsunade's severed torso.

The answer has already been given by LFG.

http://www.lfgcomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lfg2501-677-june10-13.gif

TSUNADE SPIDER!!!!

[Starwulf]

I predict he makes her into a naga(that's the mythical creature that has a human torso/face but body of a serpent, right?). I mean, really, that's the only choice at all. Obviously! :smallbiggrin:

[LaZodiac]

The answer has already been given by LFG.

http://www.lfgcomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lfg2501-677-june10-13.gif

TSUNADE SPIDER!!!!

Well, snake, but I get what you mean.


I predict he makes her into a naga(that's the mythical creature that has a human torso/face but body of a serpent, right?). I mean, really, that's the only choice at all. Obviously! :smallbiggrin:

Naga's are typically more "they're pure snake except for the face" so I think you're thinking more of a Lamia.

[Starwulf]

Well, snake, but I get what you mean.



Naga's are typically more "they're pure snake except for the face" so I think you're thinking more of a Lamia.

Ahh, yeah, Lamia it is. I just googled it, then checked out images, that is what I was thinking about. So, Tsunade-Lamia-Sama! Heh.

[lord_khaine]

Naga's are typically more "they're pure snake except for the face" so I think you're thinking more of a Lamia.

It really depends on the source, i have actualy mostly seen the ½ human ½ snake Naga's.

[Morph Bark]

You don't need to post in a thread to subscribe to it.

While you don't need to post in a thread to subscribe to it, you do need to post in a thread to turn the little ball next to it in the thread list of a forum into a checkmark.


As for Tsunade, I'm going with eating her to acquire her bloodline or something. Considering Orochimaru can turn into a giant snake, I wonder why he hasn't yet figured out a way to eat people and graft their bloodline stuff to himself, like he did with Danzo.

[Ramza00]

As for Tsunade, I'm going with eating her to acquire her bloodline or something. Considering Orochimaru can turn into a giant snake, I wonder why he hasn't yet figured out a way to eat people and graft their bloodline stuff to himself, like he did with Danzo.
What bloodline does Tsuande have that Orochimaru wants?

It can't be the wood bloodline for Tsuande doesn't have it, furthermore Orochimaru now has a Zetsu body and thus possess the wood bloodline the only stronger living wood users out there than him are Obitio and Yamato, we also have Edo Hashirama and Edo Madara.

Same rational with just general Senju blood, why would Orochimaru care for his Zetsu body is a more pure Senju than Tsuande.

Don't get me wrong Orochimaru wants something from Tsuande but it is not her bloodline limits.

[Morph Bark]

She still also has Uzumaki blood. Perhaps it might have something to do with that? Sure, it may be purer in Karin (likely 1/2 as opposed to 1/4), but we can't be sure though (we know nothing of Tsunade's other grandparents), plus on any front Karin is weaker and less capable than Tsunade.

[LaZodiac]

I can think of two reasons why Orochimaru can go out of his way to revive Tsunade.

1: He loves her, which would be silly though understandable

2: He knows how unbelievably strong and useful she'd been in a fight, which is perfectly understandable.

[Morph Bark]

He loves how unbelievably strong she is, clearly. :smallwink:

[LaZodiac]

He loves how unbelievably strong she is, clearly. :smallwink:

True. For a guy like Orochimaru, that's to be expected.

A part of me really hopes he has some Jiraiya DNA so he can revive him too, so we can get the old and new Sanin together. Just for old times sake.

[Olinser]

What bloodline does Tsuande have that Orochimaru wants?

It can't be the wood bloodline for Tsuande doesn't have it, furthermore Orochimaru now has a Zetsu body and thus possess the wood bloodline the only stronger living wood users out there than him are Obitio and Yamato, we also have Edo Hashirama and Edo Madara.

Same rational with just general Senju blood, why would Orochimaru care for his Zetsu body is a more pure Senju than Tsuande.

Don't get me wrong Orochimaru wants something from Tsuande but it is not her bloodline limits.

Obito is not a wood user. He has a Zetsu grafted on him, but he has never once used Wood technique.

Edo Madara is the one throwing around wood techniques - he has a Hashirama clone grafted onto his chest (which is..... nasty, btw).

[darksolitaire]

Edo Madara is the one throwing around wood techniques - he has a Hashirama clone grafted onto his chest (which is..... nasty, btw).

I want this to be source of hilarity between Hashirama and Madara.

Hashirama: You have my face in your chest!
Madara: It's not what it looks like!

[Olinser]

I want this to be source of hilarity between Hashirama and Madara.

Hashirama: You have my face in your chest!
Madara: It's not what it looks like!

Hashirama: You have my face in your chest!
Madara: It's not awkward unless you let it be awkward, bro.

[LaZodiac]

Hashirama: You have my face in your chest!
Madara: It's not awkward unless you let it be awkward, bro.

"It's...it's not like I got a tattoo of you or a-anything. Baka"

[Soras Teva Gee]

"It's...it's not like I got a tattoo of you or a-anything. Baka"

We have a winner.

[Morph Bark]

It would only be weird if Hashirama had Madara's face on his chest, too. :smalltongue:

[darksolitaire]

It would only be weird if Hashirama had Madara's face on his chest, too. :smalltongue:

My new head canon is that Orochimaru did this.

Alternatively, Madara and Hashirama are completely nonchalant about it.

Hashirama: If that my face in your chest that I see?
Madara: Why yes, yes it is.
Hashirama: Huh, ok.

[LaZodiac]

My new head canon is that Orochimaru did this.

Alternatively, Madara and Hashirama are completely nonchalant about it.

Hashirama: If that my face in your chest that I see?
Madara: Why yes, yes it is.
Hashirama: Huh, ok.

Well, if you think about it...Kabuto was the one who did it. But he had absorbed so much Orochimaru, and has been explicitly trying to imitate Orochimaru, that it would be a thing that Orochimaru WOULD do.

Also, I imagine Hashirama knows full well about Madara's extreme man crush.

[ben-zayb]

Tell us your silly thoughts on what antics Orochimaru is going to get up to with Tsunade's severed torso.

Well...
Orochimaru with his sick ideas, might make a twisted flesh-golem-zombie-robot sequence, harvesting Tsunade's upper torso (for her healing/vitality), A's lower torso and feet (for Raiton armor and speed), Oonoki's left arm (for Dust release), Gaara's right arm (for maneuvering Sand), and finally Terumi's head (for Lava release) for an "And I form the head" finish.

On a more serious note, how about the scroll that Suigetsu found that is supposed to give Sasuke an upper hand in the war? Could it actually be a some potent mind-controlling jutsu against the Kages?

[LaZodiac]

Well...
Orochimaru with his sick ideas, might make a twisted flesh-golem-zombie-robot sequence, harvesting Tsunade's upper torso (for her healing/vitality), A's lower torso and feet (for Raiton armor and speed), Oonoki's left arm (for Dust release), Gaara's right arm (for maneuvering Sand), and finally Terumi's head (for Lava release) for an "And I form the head" finish.

On a more serious note, how about the scroll that Suigetsu found that is supposed to give Sasuke an upper hand in the war? Could it actually be a some potent mind-controlling jutsu against the Kages?

Well, by my understanding, Tsunade used the last of her strength to heal the other kages.

That IS an interesting idea, though. As is the second theory you gave :smalltongue:

[ben-zayb]

Well, by my understanding, Tsunade used the last of her strength to heal the other kages.

That IS an interesting idea, though. As is the second theory you gave :smalltongue:

It was actually more of a crack theory anyway, silly as it is. Then again, this is Orochimaru we're talking about. No other shounen character ever disgusts and grosses me out as much as he does.

[Olinser]

It was actually more of a crack theory anyway, silly as it is. Then again, this is Orochimaru we're talking about. No other shounen character ever disgusts and grosses me out as much as he does.

Whatever ole Orochimaru does, we can rest assured that it will be sneaky, underhanded, probably borderline perverted, and be awesome at the same time it will be disgusting.

[Kato]

Well...
Orochimaru with his sick ideas, might make a twisted flesh-golem-zombie-robot sequence, harvesting Tsunade's upper torso (for her healing/vitality), A's lower torso and feet (for Raiton armor and speed), Oonoki's left arm (for Dust release), Gaara's right arm (for maneuvering Sand), and finally Terumi's head (for Lava release) for an "And I form the head" finish.

"By your powers combined I am Captain Kage?" :smalltongue: Okay, maybe more a classic merging robot scenario.



On a more serious note, how about the scroll that Suigetsu found that is supposed to give Sasuke an upper hand in the war? Could it actually be a some potent mind-controlling jutsu against the Kages?
Wow, that has been forever ago... Maybe Kishi forgot about that? When did they find it again?


Also: Am I really the only one who has lost enough faith in Kishi to think both Sasuke and Oro are good guys now?

[Morph Bark]

Well...
Orochimaru with his sick ideas, might make a twisted flesh-golem-zombie-robot sequence, harvesting Tsunade's upper torso (for her healing/vitality), A's lower torso and feet (for Raiton armor and speed), Oonoki's left arm (for Dust release), Gaara's right arm (for maneuvering Sand), and finally Terumi's head (for Lava release) for an "And I form the head" finish.

On a more serious note, how about the scroll that Suigetsu found that is supposed to give Sasuke an upper hand in the war? Could it actually be a some potent mind-controlling jutsu against the Kages?

If he'd do that, he'd at least just get all their intact arms and give it multiple heads. Asura style.

[ben-zayb]

If he'd do that, he'd at least just get all their intact arms and give it multiple heads. Asura style.

If we go this route, technically Oro probably would only need their blood for the jutsu to work and transfuse them with his own. :smalltongue:

I was banking my silly theory on japanese culture stereotypical fascination for such intertransformation sequence. Besides, why pass up the opportunity to make a Voltron reference?

[darksolitaire]

Also: Am I really the only one who has lost enough faith in Kishi to think both Sasuke and Oro are good guys now?

IMO Oro is and will be bad, but remember that bad guys are allowed to act against their alignment. :smallbiggrin: As of recent chapters Oro's motives have become a bit unclear. When he was resurrected he still wanted Sasuke's body, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have other goals. Saving Tsunade "just because" could fit him.

[Somewhere]

Ch 634

Page 7, upper right panel
Viz: "<snip>Never mind that!! Will ya hurry up and weave some jutsu signs?!! C'mon, get with it!! You want me to shake ya off my head?!"
Panda: "<snip>Yeah no prob!! Just hurry up and do the seal!! I'll jump right on it!!"
Original: "<snip> Sogaina koto yori nou!! Hayou jutsu no in wo musubecha honmani!! Atama kara furi otosudo!!"

Huh, I guess that Gamakichi speaks in a non-standard dialect, as I can only parse some words here and there in the first two sentences.
Anyway, the last sentence is the big difference here. Panda switches speaker from Gamakichi to Naruto for some reason. And completely changed the last sentence, for that matter. 'Atama kara furi otosu' is basically 'Shake off from the head'.
Panda can handle the first two sentences, but completely bails out on the last sentence. The one that's mostly standard Japanese. I don't know.

Page 12/15
Viz goes with Inferno Style: Susano'o Flame Control
Panda goes with Enton - Susanoo Kagutsuchi

So, the kagutsuchi used here. 迦具土命.
Normally, 迦具土 is read 'kagutsuchi', as part of 'kagutsuchi no kami', one of the ways to write the name for that fire god who burned Izanami to death while being born, then got beheaded by Izanagi for that.
But here, Kishimoto has 'tsuchi' split up; with 土 being read as 'tsu' (a valid way to read that individual kanji) and '命' being read as 'chi'. 命 by itself usually means command/decree/destiny/life. So you can see how Viz came up with 'Flame Control' here.

Page 15, center panel
So what's the name Naruto came up with for that?
Viz goes with...
"Scorch style, nimbus gale jetblack arrow formation: zero"

[Olinser]

By the way, is anybody else's Willing Suspenion of Disbelief strained by Gamakichi's gigantic appearance?

We saw him just a couple months ago in comic time, when Naruto was training on Mount Myuboku. His last growth spurt, from hand-sized to bit-bigger-than-human-sized, took over 2 years.

But in just a couple months to go from bit-bigger-than-human sized to full on gigantic? That just strained my willingness to accept it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ehh after all the BS the series has pulled that doesn't even make an impression on me.

Between Tobito and Orochimaru being back... heck I've got more issue with Sasuke being able to summon a snake if anything.

[LaZodiac]

Ehh after all the BS the series has pulled that doesn't even make an impression on me.

Between Tobito and Orochimaru being back... heck I've got more issue with Sasuke being able to summon a snake if anything.

What's worse is that the snake is the first snake's son, which Sasuke used as a living meat shield. Poor guy.

[Olinser]

What's worse is that the snake is the first snake's son, which Sasuke used as a living meat shield. Poor guy.

I thought it was a clone, not a son. YMMV on whether that's worse.

[jindra34]

I thought it was a clone, not a son. YMMV on whether that's worse.

No that was the one used by Kabuto iirc.

[ben-zayb]

By the way, is anybody else's Willing Suspenion of Disbelief strained by Gamakichi's gigantic appearance?


Ehh after all the BS the series has pulled that doesn't even make an impression on me.THIS. The growth spurt was tame compared to all the bad character development (or lack thereof), and the supermassive plotholes and inconsistencies brought out lately (escalated around the time Obito's identity was revealed)


What's worse is that the snake is the first snake's son, which Sasuke used as a living meat shield. Poor guy.
Yeah, didn't the kid snake wonder what happened to its dad and why it didn't come back?

Also...Sakura is practically an upgraded carbon-copy of Tsunade. The Kuchiyose summon didn't even vary. They could've made some random BS name for a summon instead the same Katsuyu. :smallsigh:

[Kato]

Meh, Gamakichi is a magical frog that lives in whateverland... Maybe at some point he can change his size by will?

New chapter, chaps.

Bickering between Karin and Suigetsu, Oro is good (admit it, guys. There's no evil plan. He. Is. Good.), Tsunade gets rather easily fixed...

Naruto and Sasuke disagree whether to destroy the juubi or save the bijuus... Burn, baby, burn...

The Kages are quite suddenly fixed up and ready to return to action.

And we get a shot of Kakashi and Obito.

So... uhm... actually kind of decent chapter with a lot of stuff happening. YMMV on how good that stuff is, though.

[ben-zayb]

Meh, Gamakichi is a magical frog that lives in whateverland... Maybe at some point he can change his size by will?

New chapter, chaps.

Bickering between Karin and Suigetsu, Oro is good (admit it, guys. There's no evil plan. He. Is. Good.), Tsunade gets rather easily fixed...

Naruto and Sasuke disagree whether to destroy the juubi or save the bijuus... Burn, baby, burn...

The Kages are quite suddenly fixed up and ready to return to action.

And we get a shot of Kakashi and Obito.

So... uhm... actually kind of decent chapter with a lot of stuff happening. YMMV on how good that stuff is, though.


The biggest twist about Oro was that there was none? :smallconfused::smallsigh:
Here's to hoping Sasuke has something up his sleeves... instead of weird turnaround like Oro.

EDIT: No Mecha-ge for me, either. :smallfrown:

Oh well, Naruto's becoming Bleach now, where being sliced up is not much of a threat. I really feel sorry for Neji... somehow.

[Morph Bark]

What's worse is that the snake is the first snake's son, which Sasuke used as a living meat shield. Poor guy.

Manda was kind of a bastard, to the point where even Orochimaru thought so. I'm betting he might've not been a great father figure either.

Pretty decent chapter.

Orochimaru did pretty good in here. Typical that we didn't get to see Tsunade's face at old age. I would've liked it better if she couldn't entirely be saved, it detracts from her near-death many chapters ago.

I'm betting the Naruto-Sasuke exchange regarding the bijuu will become important.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To be fair it would not nessecarily be un-snakeish to be devoid of ordinary affection and say respect anyone strong enough or some such.

New Chapter:
Well I'm glad the Kage's survived because an off screen whupping was just a load of bull way to go out even if it was just Tsunade.

Yeah and seems Sasuke is still a jack-ass. No way Naruto is going to let Kurama's friends go down, they're his friends now too.

Guessing Naruto will free and become Jinchuriki for all of them and go SSJ3 Sage of the Six Paths from doing so.

[LaZodiac]

Oh my god.

Spoilers: This chapter was kind of brilliant, atleast at the start. Karin and Suigetsu bickering is really fun, though Karin saying that nearly being killed by Sasuke felt good is MORE THEN A LITTLE CREEPY. But then we get Orochimaru....OROCHIMARU IS STICKING OUT HIS TONGUE AND MOVING HIS HEAD AND WIGGLING HIS FINGERS AND MAKING "oooh isn't this so mysteriouuuus" NOISES! BEST THING EVER.

Also, Orochimaru's motivation seems interesting. I feel it's a cop out to save Tsunade, though it makes sense that the other Kages are alive.

Sasuke is clearly starting to put some strain on Sakura and Naruto, which is good. Which is REALLY good.

I actually didn't know what that last page was until Kato mentioned it. Thanks!

[KnightDisciple]

Oh my god.

Spoilers: This chapter was kind of brilliant, atleast at the start. Karin and Suigetsu bickering is really fun, though Karin saying that nearly being killed by Sasuke felt good is MORE THEN A LITTLE CREEPY. But then we get Orochimaru....OROCHIMARU IS STICKING OUT HIS TONGUE AND MOVING HIS HEAD AND WIGGLING HIS FINGERS AND MAKING "oooh isn't this so mysteriouuuus" NOISES! BEST THING EVER.

Also, Orochimaru's motivation seems interesting. I feel it's a cop out to save Tsunade, though it makes sense that the other Kages are alive.

Sasuke is clearly starting to put some strain on Sakura and Naruto, which is good. Which is REALLY good.

I actually didn't know what that last page was until Kato mentioned it. Thanks!

Indeed.

Also, I think the following sentence is very much still applicable. No real spoilers at this point.

Orochimaru is on no one's side but Orochimaru's. Orochimaru is for no one but Orochimaru.

I think at this point trying to speculate beyond that may well prove frustrating.

[Kato]

I actually didn't know what that last page was until Kato mentioned it. Thanks!

You're welcome.

Also, I kind of went over t pretty quick but I also very much enjoyed the trio's bickering, especially Oro's last comment and the others decision of him being the weirdest :smallbiggrin:

I am kind of curious why Kishi keeps hiding old Tsunade but I guess it's only a running gag at this point.

[Olinser]

This chapter just reinforces my initial impression of Sasuke's 'change'.

Nobody is going to trust him to be Hokage. The only way he's going to be Hokage is if he takes it by force and becomes a dictator.

As soon as the dust settles on Madara's corpse, there's going to be another fight.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I am kind of curious why Kishi keeps hiding old Tsunade but I guess it's only a running gag at this point.

Probably because it would raise the question of why Jiraiya didn't look that old. :smallwink:

[Somewhere]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #30:
"JoJo no geimu no PV wo Shinjuku no aruta mae de mita. Okuyasu no ninki ga sugokatta...!!"

"I saw the JoJo game PV at Shinjuku Alta. Okuyasu's popularity was amazing!"

So yea, on June 10, a promotional video for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All Star Battle was played on the giant video screen on the side of Shinjuku Alta (a 8 story shopping complex near Shinjuku Station).
Okuyasu is a character from part 4 of JoJo's, according to wiki. I've actually never took the time to check out JoJo's.

[LaZodiac]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #30:
"JoJo no geimu no PV wo Shinjuku no aruta mae de mita. Okuyasu no ninki ga sugokatta...!!"

"I saw the JoJo game PV at Shinjuku Alta. Okuyasu's popularity was amazing!"

So yea, on June 10, a promotional video for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All Star Battle was played on the giant video screen on the side of Shinjuku Alta (a 8 story shopping complex near Shinjuku Station).
Okuyasu is a character from part 4 of JoJo's, according to wiki. I've actually never took the time to check out JoJo's.

Okuyasu is a silly guy. JoJo is pretty awesome and you should read it. Glad in part to see Kishimoto is a fan of Jojo.

[Morph Bark]

Y'know what I'm wondering about? How the heck could Sakura summon Katsuyu when Katsuyu had already been summoned by Tsunade, and Katsuyu still being present where Tsunade is.

Yeah, she can split up, sure, but doesn't a summoning summon the entire creature, whether it wants to or not? I remember that being a huge thing with Gamabunta way back with Naruto.

[VanBuren]

Y'know what I'm wondering about? How the heck could Sakura summon Katsuyu when Katsuyu had already been summoned by Tsunade, and Katsuyu still being present where Tsunade is.

Yeah, she can split up, sure, but doesn't a summoning summon the entire creature, whether it wants to or not? I remember that being a huge thing with Gamabunta way back with Naruto.

Gigaslug.

By which I mean it appears that there's only one slug and all summons are just subdivision of the gigaslug.

[darksolitaire]

Orochimaru is awesome. He has character development, even.


Gigaslug.

By which I mean it appears that there's only one slug and all summons are just subdivision of the gigaslug.

I...I can't even begin to imagine the amount of salt you need to pour on one of those :smalleek:

[Olinser]

Orochimaru is awesome. He has character development, even.



I...I can't even begin to imagine the amount of salt you need to pour on one of those :smalleek:

Fake character development. Its just BS he's feeding Tsunade.

Orochimaru is totally going to be the Final Villain.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Y'know what I'm wondering about? How the heck could Sakura summon Katsuyu when Katsuyu had already been summoned by Tsunade, and Katsuyu still being present where Tsunade is.

Yeah, she can split up, sure, but doesn't a summoning summon the entire creature, whether it wants to or not? I remember that being a huge thing with Gamabunta way back with Naruto.

Fairly evident Katsuyu is actually some kind of giant slug hive-mind gestalt and probably the only slug.

[darksolitaire]

Fake character development. Its just BS he's feeding Tsunade.

But, but, internal monologue!

[The Troubadour]

Okuyasu is a character from part 4 of JoJo's, according to wiki. I've actually never took the time to check out JoJo's.

It's awesome.

[LaZodiac]

But, but, internal monologue!

I have a feeling Orochimaru is legitimately a good guy now. I WANT him to be, so he can have a happy ending.

[Starwulf]

I have a feeling Orochimaru is legitimately a good guy now. I WANT him to be, so he can have a happy ending.

Really? I still have issues with him from when he killed Sarutobi, and then was the cause for Sasuke's betrayal of the Leaf(yes, I was a Sasuke fan boy up until that point). I cheered when I found out Sasuke killed him, then booed when he made his come back. Right now I'm still on the "dislike" side of the Orochimaru fence, though if he can find a way to bring back Jiraiya , I'd definitely give that thought process a rethink :) I miss the pervy sage.

[LaZodiac]

Really? I still have issues with him from when he killed Sarutobi, and then was the cause for Sasuke's betrayal of the Leaf(yes, I was a Sasuke fan boy up until that point). I cheered when I found out Sasuke killed him, then booed when he made his come back. Right now I'm still on the "dislike" side of the Orochimaru fence, though if he can find a way to bring back Jiraiya , I'd definitely give that thought process a rethink :) I miss the pervy sage.

I miss Jiraiya too.

Also, the reason I think Orochimaru needs some sort of happy ending is because...well, he's just really AWESOME. He had a really good motivation as a villain, and I think he might of actually had a change of heart.

[ben-zayb]

Also, the reason I think Orochimaru needs some sort of happy ending is because...well, he's just really AWESOME. He had a really good motivation as a villain, and I think he might of actually had a change of heart.

IMHO the best moment to have made the Heel-Face turn was back when Jiraiya was alive, as it would've made more sense to be convinced back to the good side by a really close fire-forged friend. Now I just think that he's way past the Moral Event Horizon. Then again, the same goes for Sasuke. And shounen plot, being shounen, dictates that he should be redeemed and get a happy ending, holding hands with the rest of the guys and singing Kumbaya.

At this point what would be the climax of the story? Sasuke-Naruto wouldn't have so much OOMPH, as it isn't as personal, without the tension brought by being evil and having really awful goals. At this point watching John Cena wrestle a broom might even be more exciting.

[Morph Bark]

I actually think it might've been harder to turn Orochimaru over a new leaf during Jiraiya's lifetime (or at least not any easier). While they were close, Orochimaru also had great contempt for Jiraiya.

I still think a key point in his change of heart is the fact that he now has an immortal body, so it doesn't really matter what happens. Just as long as he doesn't lose his free will to the Moon's Eye Plan, of course. When that is prevented, who knows what he'll do?

[LaZodiac]

At this point what would be the climax of the story? Sasuke-Naruto wouldn't have so much OOMPH, as it isn't as personal, without the tension brought by being evil and having really awful goals. At this point watching John Cena wrestle a broom might even be more exciting.

...Sasuke vs Naruto isn't personal? Have we been reading the same manga?

[ben-zayb]

...Sasuke vs Naruto isn't personal? Have we been reading the same manga?

With the way the manga is going?

Sasuke v Naruto at the rooftop? Personal. The recognition vs weakness-denial tension is there.
Sasuke v Naruto at the VotE? Personal. Naruto was trying hard saving a friend from doing some crappy deal with Oro.
Sasuke v Naruto for the hokage title? Should be, except that being Kage now doesn't have that special vibe anymore. So not as much.

EDIT: Oh, and read that again. Not personal =/= not as personal

[Sotharsyl]

I have a feeling Orochimaru is legitimately a good guy now. I WANT him to be, so he can have a happy ending.

I don't think he's a good guy per say, as a individual Orochimaru is just as evil as before it's just that his biggest evil acts were done "to be the wind that moves the windmill" to throw the world in a state of chaos/change then observe how it reacts thus getting sweet sweet knowledge from the situation.

Right now Sasuke has a goal starting a new better system which means he will make that windmill spin at 36000 rpm and Orochimaru can just sit back and observe events without needing to be the source of the change.

For example Sasuke wants to get rid of the bijuu because he knows them only as weapons of destruction, like everybody sans Naruto, the first logical thing Naruto should do in reaction to Sasuke's plan is tell everybody that the Bijuu are sentient,oppressed beings and boom new knowledge for Oro.

[Traab]

I don't think he's a good guy per say, as a individual Orochimaru is just as evil as before it's just that his biggest evil acts were done "to be the wind that moves the windmill" to throw the world in a state of chaos/change then observe how it reacts thus getting sweet sweet knowledge from the situation.

Right now Sasuke has a goal starting a new better system which means he will make that windmill spin at 36000 rpm and Orochimaru can just sit back and observe events without needing to be the source of the change.

For example Sasuke wants to get rid of the bijuu because he knows them only as weapons of destruction, like everybody sans Naruto, the first logical thing Naruto should do in reaction to Sasuke's plan is tell everybody that the Bijuu are sentient,oppressed beings and boom new knowledge for Oro.

pfft, that windmill of change speech sure sounded high and mighty, but in reality, that was only a part of it. He wanted revenge. revenge on the village, revenge on his sensei for not making him the yondaime. Its why he made them fight on a rooftop so sarutobi could see his village burn. He was there to HURT the third, he wanted to make him suffer, and then make him die. He could have forced change in a thousand different ways, but he wanted to kill the third hokage, thats what mattered to him most. He could have assasinated the third, but he wanted him to see his village die around him. He could have trapped the third in that cage and left him there as a hopeless spectator while he went off killing everything, but he didnt. All because he wanted the third dead. Hell, he could have even used edo tensei then LEFT. But he wanted to be there to see him die. He wanted to taunt and torment him personally.

[Ramza00]

pfft, that windmill of change speech sure sounded high and mighty, but in reality, that was only a part of it. He wanted revenge. revenge on the village, revenge on his sensei for not making him the yondaime. Its why he made them fight on a rooftop so sarutobi could see his village burn. He was there to HURT the third, he wanted to make him suffer, and then make him die. He could have forced change in a thousand different ways, but he wanted to kill the third hokage, thats what mattered to him most. He could have assasinated the third, but he wanted him to see his village die around him. He could have trapped the third in that cage and left him there as a hopeless spectator while he went off killing everything, but he didnt. All because he wanted the third dead. Hell, he could have even used edo tensei then LEFT. But he wanted to be there to see him die. He wanted to taunt and torment him personally.
Agreed

Continuing though...Orochimaru though has encountered a lot in the last three years. He has been on death door due to the third hokage's legacy on him (sealed hands), being defeated by sasuke, followed by being sealed by Itachi. (note for some reason all the different aspects of Orochimaru seem aware of each other actions.)

He did achieve a partial revenge against the third so less of the venom of being screwed is there. But during those three years he also got his ass kicked thrice* (one of them the consequence of his revenge, the other two the consequence of his ambition) and suddenly I bet Orochimaru doesn't want to be evil just for the sake of evil, being an opportunistic nonparticipant probably sounds like a good idea to Orochimaru. Being the wind that changes the world paints a giant target on one's back.

*To top it all off, as an honorary fourth, Orochimaru also sees his apprentice Kabuto who was trying his best to emulate and surpass Orochimaru get his assed kicked by those damn Uchiha once again. Kabuto had all the "logical trump cards" and he still lost to those stinking eye powers.

[LaZodiac]

Also, keep in mind all Kabuto was doing was retreading what Orochimaru did. The only thing Kabuto did that was unique is achive Snake Sage mode. Everything else was just boring old stuff Orochimaru already did. And Orochimaru wants to see different things.

[Sotharsyl]

pfft, that windmill of change speech sure sounded high and mighty, but in reality, that was only a part of it. He wanted revenge. revenge on the village, revenge on his sensei for not making him the yondaime. Its why he made them fight on a rooftop so sarutobi could see his village burn. He was there to HURT the third, he wanted to make him suffer, and then make him die. He could have forced change in a thousand different ways, but he wanted to kill the third hokage, thats what mattered to him most. He could have assasinated the third, but he wanted him to see his village die around him. He could have trapped the third in that cage and left him there as a hopeless spectator while he went off killing everything, but he didnt. All because he wanted the third dead. Hell, he could have even used edo tensei then LEFT. But he wanted to be there to see him die. He wanted to taunt and torment him personally.

True true,

Vengeance was a huge part of it, it's just that it was achieved already and the next biggest motivation is the windmill thing.

Actually I was very disappointed by the Hiruzen/Oro conversation back in the Uchiha shrine or more precisely the lack there-off imho there should have been at least a WTF reaction that a now adolescent Sasuke is serving Orochimaru and a even bigger one when he sees it's a partnership in fact.

Also the thread title sincs up very well with the new volume cover :D

[Morph Bark]

Also, keep in mind all Kabuto was doing was retreading what Orochimaru did. The only thing Kabuto did that was unique is achive Snake Sage mode. Everything else was just boring old stuff Orochimaru already did. And Orochimaru wants to see different things.

And that is assuming Orochimaru didn't achieve Snake Sage mode, of course. If he did, in a few chapters we'll have three sages fighting on one side*.

*assuming Tsunade isn't a Slug Sage or such, but considering her vanity I doubt that she ever tried to achieve it if she knew of it.

[Nekura]

pfft, that windmill of change speech sure sounded high and mighty, but in reality, that was only a part of it. He wanted revenge. revenge on the village, revenge on his sensei for not making him the yondaime. Its why he made them fight on a rooftop so sarutobi could see his village burn. He was there to HURT the third, he wanted to make him suffer, and then make him die. He could have forced change in a thousand different ways, but he wanted to kill the third hokage, thats what mattered to him most. He could have assasinated the third, but he wanted him to see his village die around him. He could have trapped the third in that cage and left him there as a hopeless spectator while he went off killing everything, but he didnt. All because he wanted the third dead. Hell, he could have even used edo tensei then LEFT. But he wanted to be there to see him die. He wanted to taunt and torment him personally.

I think Oro’s speech just spelled out that Sasuke is still evil. Oro already got a good part of his revenge killing the 3rd. Now he has calmed down a bit and is content to watch Sasuke destroy Konoha in his quest for revenge. Oro was always good about biding his time and watching Sasuke ruin Konoha in his misguided attempt to fix it currently amuses him. The only way Sasuke could become Hokage is by force and as unlikely as him achieving that is it would only be for a short time as doing so would just make Konoha crippling weak. Sai even pointed out that Sakura’s smile was fake when she said she was happen Sasuke came back and that she trusts him.

[Morph Bark]

New chapter
Wait, what? Madara is going to revive himself, using Obito as a sacrifice? Why would he do this? Oh god. :smalleek:

[Kato]

New chapter
Wait, what? Madara is going to revive himself, using Obito as a sacrifice? Why would he do this? Oh god. :smalleek:

Geez, why would he... ?


Also, who else does he have as an option? Okay, though, maybe I'm not quite getting it...

Madara wants to become the Jinchuriki, so apparently he needs to be alive. So now he's going to make Obito thanks to his Zetsu body (?) use the Rinne Tensei to revive him. As dead as Obito is I guess there really isn't much use for him anyway.

Though, I guess thiw will make Madara actually weaker what with not being an immortal zombie anymore. But maybe Obito will instead use the technique to bring back Rin, if that is even still possible after ??? years... And Madara will get terribly pissed. Though, I don't see it happen, I guess it is a possibility.

[Morph Bark]

Geez, why would he... ?


Also, who else does he have as an option? Okay, though, maybe I'm not quite getting it...

Madara wants to become the Jinchuriki, so apparently he needs to be alive. So now he's going to make Obito thanks to his Zetsu body (?) use the Rinne Tensei to revive him. As dead as Obito is I guess there really isn't much use for him anyway.

Though, I guess thiw will make Madara actually weaker what with not being an immortal zombie anymore. But maybe Obito will instead use the technique to bring back Rin, if that is even still possible after ??? years... And Madara will get terribly pissed. Though, I don't see it happen, I guess it is a possibility.


As great as it would be to see Obito revive Rin instead, where is her body even at this point? It would probably have to be nearby for it to work on her. Assuming you need the body.

I missed the fact that apparently Madara needs to be alive to be a Jinchuuriki. Becoming even more powerful is clearly the only reason he'd ever give up his functional immortality.

[ben-zayb]

As great as it would be to see Obito revive Rin instead, where is her body even at this point? It would probably have to be nearby for it to work on her. Assuming you need the body.

I missed the fact that apparently Madara needs to be alive to be a Jinchuuriki. Becoming even more powerful is clearly the only reason he'd ever give up his functional immortality.

I think only a DNA sample is needed, which would be tooooo weird if somehow Obito has them. I mean...sweet baby you-know-who, so creepy.

[darksolitaire]

As great as it would be to see Obito revive Rin instead, where is her body even at this point? It would probably have to be nearby for it to work on her. Assuming you need the body.

I missed the fact that apparently Madara needs to be alive to be a Jinchuuriki. Becoming even more powerful is clearly the only reason he'd ever give up his functional immortality.

I'm not sure you need to be alive to be Jinchuuriki. Obito had the previous Junchuurikis animated, and they still had the beasts in them. Also, Rinne Tensei doesn't need sacrifice like Edo Tensei does. So Madara has no reason to sacrifice Obito, unless he does it just because. And Rinne Tensei doesn't need DNA, probably.

[Kato]

I'm not sure you need to be alive to be Jinchuuriki. Obito had the previous Junchuurikis animated, and they still had the beasts in them. Also, Rinne Tensei doesn't need sacrifice like Edo Tensei does. So Madara has no reason to sacrifice Obito, unless he does it just because. And Rinne Tensei doesn't need DNA, probably.


Doesn't Rinne auto-kill the caster, though?

Aren't the beasts inside the juubi so whatever the Jinchuriki displayed must have been their own powers--- probably.

And it's pretty much the one reason for Madara to become alive... I thought he said it more clearly but it seems clear to me that's his reasoning.

[Douglas]

Doesn't Rinne auto-kill the caster, though?

No. The only reason Pain died when he used it on Konoha was that it used too much chakra to do it on such a large scale and he didn't have enough left after doing so much fighting. He used it on a much smaller scale all the time to bring back his slain Paths with no ill effects.

[jindra34]

Actually a few (or maybe more) chapters back it was stated that both aspectsRinne Tensei killing the user (which is how/why Obito got some control) and that to be able to fully control the 10-tails one needed to be a living Jinchuuriki. were true. So yeah Pain's sacrifice pretty much stuck Obito up a creek without a paddle...

[Somewhere]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #31:
"Chichi no hi ni inisharu iri no kutsu****a wo moraima****a. Meccha ureshii. Ganbaruzo-!!"

"For Father's Day, I received socks with my initials. I'm very happy. I'll do my best!"

[Kato]

Actually a few (or maybe more) chapters back it was stated that both aspectsRinne Tensei killing the user (which is how/why Obito got some control) and that to be able to fully control the 10-tails one needed to be a living Jinchuuriki. were true. So yeah Pain's sacrifice pretty much stuck Obito up a creek without a paddle...
Aha, so I wasn't imagining things. Thank you. :smallbiggrin:


Kishi's ToC comment for issue #31:
"Chichi no hi ni inisharu iri no kutsu****a wo moraima****a. Meccha ureshii. Ganbaruzo-!!"

"For Father's Day, I received socks with my initials. I'm very happy. I'll do my best!"

I don't know why but I always kind of assumed Kishi was still single and definitely not a father...

[darksolitaire]

I don't know why but I always kind of assumed Kishi was still single and definitely not a father...

It just that these Shonen Mangakas don't seem like the marrying types. :smalltongue: Oda is married too, but what about Kubo?

[ben-zayb]

It just that these Shonen Mangakas don't seem like the marrying types. :smalltongue: Oda is married too, but what about Kubo?

Then there's this awesome guy (not awesome to some since he is yet to finish HxH) Togashi, who married a fellow mangaka (the Sailor Moon mangaka I think)

[Sotharsyl]

I'm not sure you need to be alive to be Jinchuuriki. Obito had the previous Junchuurikis animated, and they still had the beasts in them. Also, Rinne Tensei doesn't need sacrifice like Edo Tensei does. So Madara has no reason to sacrifice Obito, unless he does it just because. And Rinne Tensei doesn't need DNA, probably.


The newest rules (which Madara specifically states) seems to be you need to be alive to be a Jin.

Those things Obito did with the jin was a combination of Nagato's Pain jutsu + Edo Tensei channeling the power of the bijuu in the statue ... as far as I can tell.

[darksolitaire]

The newest rules (which Madara specifically states) seems to be you need to be alive to be a Jin.

Those things Obito did with the jin was a combination of Nagato's Pain jutsu + Edo Tensei channeling the power of the bijuu in the statue ... as far as I can tell.


Ok, seems legit. Hard to tell when there's several jutsus flying willy-nilly. :smallbiggrin:

[Somewhere]

It just that these Shonen Mangakas don't seem like the marrying types. :smalltongue: Oda is married too, but what about Kubo?

Kubo actually got married relatively recently; I think that it was in December of just last year.

[Sotharsyl]

Actually a few (or maybe more) chapters back it was stated that both aspectsRinne Tensei killing the user (which is how/why Obito got some control) and that to be able to fully control the 10-tails one needed to be a living Jinchuuriki. were true. So yeah Pain's sacrifice pretty much stuck Obito up a creek without a paddle...

There was a paddle his name is Sasuke :P

I imagine Obito's endgame was something like this:

Obito - "Ok Sasuke not that I got the Rinneghan back from Nagato and into your eyes you can sacrifice yourself to bring back your parents and family!"

Obito - "What who's in that extra body bag, well it's your great great great uncle I'm sure he would be very disappointed you didn't remember him now get to it!"

[darksolitaire]

Obito - "What who's in that extra body bag, well it's your great great great uncle I'm sure he would be very disappointed you didn't remember him now get to it!"

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Scamming Sasuke to resurrect Madara is hilarious.

[Olinser]

It just that these Shonen Mangakas don't seem like the marrying types. :smalltongue: Oda is married too, but what about Kubo?

In fact, Oda's marriage coincided with a rapid increase of Nami's cup size and massive spike in general fanservice in the comic.

I wonder if Kubo will follow suit.

[LaZodiac]

In fact, Oda's marriage coincided with a rapid increase of Nami's cup size and massive spike in general fanservice in the comic.

I wonder if Kubo will follow suit.

Well to be fair Nami's appearance is based off of her.

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, I think Oda met her when she was playing Nami in One Piece musical.

So it was the other way around.

[ben-zayb]

New chapter's out!
Phew! I thought for a moment there we'd also get an Obito face-turn. In hindsight, wasn't this Tobi's plan all along? To be the Juubi and use the enormous chakra to power the Mugen Tsukuyomi?

[Kato]

Well, thank you, Naruto...

Because really, I couldn't have figured out what was happening on those last pages on my own.
So... why did he have to nearly die for it?

Okay, I guess Madara and Obito beating up each oher might be a pretty decent idea... We'll see how it goes?

Though, Minato's use of his teleportation was smart, but then again, this is Minato.

[Morph Bark]

So... hum. Okay!
To be honest, if Naruto hadn't mentioned it on the last page, I would've not figured it out immediately, as it looks rather vague.

I guess Obito could stop Madara's attempt due to also having the Rinnegan himself?

This is a better outcome than Madara becoming the Jinchuuriki though. Then again, now they still have TWO ridiculously powerful, practically-immortal, destruction-happy ninja to deal with.

[Socratov]

so, **** happens, but if obito is the new jinchuriki, does that mean he will need to learn to control the tailed beast within him? something other jinchuuriki take a lot of time learning? and does this mean that hashirama will have an easy time subduing obito as a jinchuuriki? I mean, I see no real downsides to this...

Oh, and I really htink naruto shuold be able to learn his dad's flying thunder god technique... it would be awesome...

[ben-zayb]

so, **** happens, but if obito is the new jinchuriki, does that mean he will need to learn to control the tailed beast within him? something other jinchuuriki take a lot of time learning? and does this mean that hashirama will have an easy time subduing obito as a jinchuuriki? I mean, I see no real downsides to this...
Then again, Obito already has two things going for him: sharingan and senju blood, which means better control of the Juubi.

[Olinser]

I feel like that last panel, with the picture of Obito's new face, should be captioned with:

UMADBRO!?!?!?

[LaZodiac]

I feel like that last panel, with the picture of Obito's new face, should be captioned with:

UMADBRO!?!?!?

Say what you will about Naruto, it's improving the life of people who like memes immensely.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Say what you will about Naruto, it's improving the life of people who like memes immensely.

Proxy wars also improve the life of the undeserving.

No, I'm not seriously equating people who like memes with war profiteers. I just think both groups need to die.

[Somewhere]

Blah, late on the ToC comment since nobody put up a scan of the ToC page on the mangahelpers thread. And I was going to try grab the scan of the entire issue itself, but the raw didn't get uploaded on Friday and I haven't had time over the weekend. So here's Viz's translation of Kishi's ToC comment for issue #32:

"To my longtime editor and concept-creator of Killer Bee, Shimazaki-san, thank you for everything. And to Bapti-san, it's great to be working with you!"

Incidentally, from other ToC comments this issue, it seems that this Bapti-san is also the editor for World Trigger and Cross Manage. Apparently he's a nice guy with a cute daughter :smallbiggrin:

Ashihara's comment (World Trigger):
"My studio was shocked by the cuteness of the daughter of my editor, Bapti-san. Talk about world class beauty!"

Kaito's comment (Cross Manage):
"I got the super high-quality macarons I've always wanted and enjoyed them with my staff. Thank you so much, my kind editor Bapti-san!"

[LaZodiac]

Blah, late on the ToC comment since nobody put up a scan of the ToC page on the mangahelpers thread. And I was going to try grab the scan of the entire issue itself, but the raw didn't get uploaded on Friday and I haven't had time over the weekend. So here's Viz's translation of Kishi's ToC comment for issue #32:

"To my longtime editor and concept-creator of Killer Bee, Shimazaki-san, thank you for everything. And to Bapti-san, it's great to be working with you!"

Incidentally, from other ToC comments this issue, it seems that this Bapti-san is also the editor for World Trigger and Cross Manage. Apparently he's a nice guy with a cute daughter :smallbiggrin:

Ashihara's comment (World Trigger):
"My studio was shocked by the cuteness of the daughter of my editor, Bapti-san. Talk about world class beauty!"

Kaito's comment (Cross Manage):
"I got the super high-quality macarons I've always wanted and enjoyed them with my staff. Thank you so much, my kind editor Bapti-san!"

Jeez, the guy scouted Naruto and Cross Manage, AND THEN ALSO WORLD TRIGGER?

I guess people aren't always going to bat a thousand, no matter how good they are :smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

I don't read any manga currently beyond Naruto and Bleach, but I presume then that those two are pretty good ones?

[Ramza00]

New manga is up, obitio shows off

[LaZodiac]

I don't read any manga currently beyond Naruto and Bleach, but I presume then that those two are pretty good ones?

Cross Manage is.

World Trigger is signifigentely not.

Anyway, chapter: no spoiler tags because I've got nothing to say. It was alright.

[Somewhere]

Oh right, public holiday in Japan next Monday, hence the issue coming out on Saturday.
Friggin fantastic, the ToC page scan isn't posted on the mangahelpers thread yet again. Eventually I'll just try navigating 2chan to find the scan myself.

Cross Manage is a series that I like a lot, but sadly it did not click at all with Jump's target audience. Bottom dweller in the polls and sales low enough they don't make the weekly Oricon charts.
Lessee, this is issue #33. Issues #35 and #36 will be debuting new series, so I would expect 2 series to get the axe, in issues #34 and #35 to make room. It is a near lock that Cross Manage will be one of those two. It saddens me, but at least it's been a great ride.
About the series itself... it follows a high school boy who used to play football/soccer before but got injured. In the present, he gets roped by the heroine into becoming the manager of the girls lacrosse team. It's a sports series that splits a noticable amount of focus away from the sport and onto the main characters' growth and their relationships. Some of the supporting characters get solid development too. The artwork is pretty solid; does a good job at distinguishing characters. It's a shame; this series probably would've fared a lot better in another magazine. But on the other hand, it being in WSJ gave it the shot to be brought over to NA, which is probably the only way I would've even heard of it.

World Trigger is a battle series with a sci-fi setting. Mysterious beings from another world can suddenly appear on Earth and attack humans. Humans have set up an organization specifically to fight said beings, utilizing these things called Triggers. Triggers turn into either melee weapons or guns. I think it still has some potential, and I do like some of the ideas. But it moves very, very slowly. I don't blame anyone who'd get turned off by the pace. It also really didn't help that a few of the first ten chapters were kind of filler.
Not a lot of battles so far; lot of exposition so far. In just the last chapter, ch 21, it finally formalized our main trio as a team.

[Olinser]

Hmm, looks like I was pretty far off on how this ended up.

However, new theory time!

Obito appears to be in a mode similar to Naruto's 9-tails chakra mode.

If it is the same, it means that the Juubi is draining Obito's chakra as he uses the mode. If that is the case - Obito is going to curb stomp everybody present, but then be forced out of the mode by the Juubi. That may be what Madara is counting on.

[Kato]

Well, not much happening... Just a big show of power. I'd say a whole chapter on this is a bit long but meh.


@Olinser: Maybe, but it seems more like Madara has something else up his sleeve. Probably something we have never seen. But as Obito seems to be all-powerful right now I guess he will show them despair. *insert evil laughter*

[LaZodiac]

*Cross Manage*

It was shaping up to be comparable to Eyeshield 21. I hope it stays.

Anyway, on topic! This being sort of like the Nine Tailed Fox chakra mode seems fairly accurate.

[Morph Bark]

I'm curious about Madara's trump card. It seems Obito has just about literally lost his mind though.

[jindra34]

New chapter:
And predictably: OH CRAP, this is bad. Bad to the degree of forcing GOD MADARA to step up his game...

[Olinser]

Well, not much happening... Just a big show of power. I'd say a whole chapter on this is a bit long but meh.


@Olinser: Maybe, but it seems more like Madara has something else up his sleeve. Probably something we have never seen. But as Obito seems to be all-powerful right now I guess he will show them despair. *insert evil laughter*

I really think this may be what Madara planned all along. I mean honestly, did anybody reasonably expect Obito to sacrifice his life to revive Madara?

I'm thinking that Madara pulled a, "I'll go first!" gambit on Obito. Madara tells Obito his plan is to be the Jinchuriki of the Juubi after Obito revives him. So Obito betrays him and becomes the Jinchuriki himself.... just as planned. :smallamused:

There has to be some major negative drawback to being the first one to be the Jinchuriki, that Madara can overcome by being the SECOND one.

Madara may have some technique that either lets him steal the chakra from Obito now that he's in a human, rather than a Bijou, form.

OR, as an alternate, I was thinkin about this earlier. Madara has a Rinnegan.

What seems to kill the user of the Rinne Tensei is the massive chakra drain it takes. So... what if Madara were to use his Rinnegan to revive HIMSELF!?!?!

He has unlimited chakra, so he won't die from chakra loss. Now he's alive, he still has his Rinnegan, and he's suckered Obito into falling on the grenade. Game, set, match! :smallcool:

[Morph Bark]

Y'know, I always figured that the Sage used one specific ability of the Rinnegan to become the Juubi's Jinchuuriki: the ability to absorb chakra.

The Tailed Beasts are creatures made of chakra, and the Juubi's body became the moon, allegedly, so only its chakra was sealed inside of the Sage. Absorbing it and then putting a seal on it so it'd stay inside of him sounds easy enough to me. So Madara could easily "steal" the Jinchuuriki status, maybe.

Obito seems to have turned himself into the Jinchuuriki differently, by using his Kamui to physically merge with the Juubi directly.

[LaZodiac]

Y'know, I always figured that the Sage used one specific ability of the Rinnegan to become the Juubi's Jinchuuriki: the ability to absorb chakra.

The Tailed Beasts are creatures made of chakra, and the Juubi's body became the moon, allegedly, so only its chakra was sealed inside of the Sage. Absorbing it and then putting a seal on it so it'd stay inside of him sounds easy enough to me. So Madara could easily "steal" the Jinchuuriki status, maybe.

Obito seems to have turned himself into the Jinchuuriki differently, by using his Kamui to physically merge with the Juubi directly.

So Obito is Sephiroth now, and he's become one with the life stream? Okay.

[DiscipleofBob]

So Obito is Sephiroth now, and he's become one with the life stream? Okay.

Nonsense, Obito has ten wings, not one.

[Infernally Clay]

I'm curious about Madara's trump card. It seems Obito has just about literally lost his mind though.

I'm thinking something along the lines of Fushi Tensei. I know Orochimaru developed the jutsu himself, but that doesn't mean there isn't a jutsu like it that Madara could use to send his soul into Obito's body and take over.

[Ramza00]

Hmm, looks like I was pretty far off on how this ended up.

However, new theory time!

Obito appears to be in a mode similar to Naruto's 9-tails chakra mode.

If it is the same, it means that the Juubi is draining Obito's chakra as he uses the mode. If that is the case - Obito is going to curb stomp everybody present, but then be forced out of the mode by the Juubi. That may be what Madara is counting on.

not quite the difference is obitio form has a lot of natural energy and thus why half of obitio is scaley

I would not be surprised that it is naruto sage training and balance that saves the day

[LaZodiac]

Nonsense, Obito has ten wings, not one.

http://mirex.mypage.sk/GALERY/safer.jpg

:smalltongue:

[some_geek]

I'm curious about Madara's trump card. It seems Obito has just about literally lost his mind though.

I think that Obito may still be somewhere deep inside whatever is left of his body. Naruto has often 'traveled inside himself' to talk to the 9-tails. I have a theory that Naruto will be going to travel into Obito's mind in a similar way and connect with the other Biju trapped in there...

[Infernally Clay]

I think that Obito may still be somewhere deep inside whatever is left of his body. Naruto has often 'traveled inside himself' to talk to the 9-tails. I have a theory that Naruto will be going to travel into Obito's mind in a similar way and connect with the other Biju trapped in there...

Nah... Obito was able to recreate the Ten Tails by taking only a very small amount of the chakra of the Eight and Nine Tails and combining it with the other seven Biju. Since we know that just half of Kurama is stronger than five of those seven Biju, it's quite possible that giving Naruto the other half of Kurama would give him the power he needs to then take the chakra he was given by the other seven Biju and turn Kurama into a Ten Tails Biju as well (especially if the Eight Tails helps out by giving Naruto a bit of its own chakra as well).

I think we could be looking at a Ten Tails Jinchuriki vs Ten Tails Jinchuriki battle. Much like Sasuke, Gaara and Nagato, in a lot of ways, Obito is who Naruto could have become had he chosen to give into the hatred. It's sort of a running theme of the manga - showing us how the path Naruto has taken has always been the right one. So it's fitting that Naruto and Obito would become "equals", only for Naruto to prove himself to be the stronger man.

[some_geek]

Nah... Obito was able to recreate the Ten Tails by taking only a very small amount of the chakra of the Eight and Nine Tails and combining it with the other seven Biju. Since we know that just half of Kurama is stronger than five of those seven Biju, it's quite possible that giving Naruto the other half of Kurama would give him the power he needs to then take the chakra he was given by the other seven Biju and turn Kurama into a Ten Tails Biju as well (especially if the Eight Tails helps out by giving Naruto a bit of its own chakra as well).

I think we could be looking at a Ten Tails Jinchuriki vs Ten Tails Jinchuriki battle. Much like Sasuke, Gaara and Nagato, in a lot of ways, Obito is who Naruto could have become had he chosen to give into the hatred. It's sort of a running theme of the manga - showing us how the path Naruto has taken has always been the right one. So it's fitting that Naruto and Obito would become "equals", only for Naruto to prove himself to be the stronger man.

With 'connect with Biju' I meant communicate, not really much else, since my theory is not specific about that.

However, 'a fight of words and thoughts', which seems to be the running theme indeed, requires for Naruto to communicate with Obito in some way. That could also be inside Obitos head, if the Biju has taken over Obitos body.

[ben-zayb]

I honestly hope it's the Jyuubi that's in control of Obito actions right now. Otherwise, I can't see from a logical in-story perspective why in the big moon isn't he performing the mugen tsukoyomi yet.

Oh wait... since when did I get the impression that he hadn't done so yet, and all those last pages were merely an illusion? o_o

[LaZodiac]

I honestly hope it's the Jyuubi that's in control of Obito actions right now. Otherwise, I can't see from a logical in-story perspective why in the big moon isn't he performing the mugen tsukoyomi yet.

Oh wait... since when did I get the impression that he hadn't done so yet, and all those last pages were merely an illusion? o_o

The one thing that would of made Sasuke's heel turn face a good plot twist, if we didn't get the hints that he's not actually heel turn face, would be if it's later revealed the Infinite Tsyukoyomi was activated, thus why Sasuke returned all good guy feels and stuff.

[Olinser]

The one thing that would of made Sasuke's heel turn face a good plot twist, if we didn't get the hints that he's not actually heel turn face, would be if it's later revealed the Infinite Tsyukoyomi was activated, thus why Sasuke returned all good guy feels and stuff.

I'm telling ya, Sasuke is in full Dr Horrible mode.

"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it!"

[Kato]

I honestly hope it's the Jyuubi that's in control of Obito actions right now. Otherwise, I can't see from a logical in-story perspective why in the big moon isn't he performing the mugen tsukoyomi yet.

Oh wait... since when did I get the impression that he hadn't done so yet, and all those last pages were merely an illusion? o_o

I'd guess a ritual concerned with turning the moon into a giant eye takes some time... And as such killing off all the flies who'd bother you while doing it seems like a pretty logical thing.

BUT it would be a good explanation for Sasuke's actions. Too bad this happened much earlier than the Jubi fusion.

[Infernally Clay]

I don't think the Infinite Tsukuyomi has been activated yet. Remember that it will be used to create the world Obito or Madara wants (depending on who uses the jutsu) so, if Obito had already activated it, at the very least Rin would show up out of nowhere.

As for who is in control... Well, we know that not just anyone can withstand the pressure of containing even the Eight Tails. With Kurama, it seems only an Uzumaki can contain the whole thing (everyone else can at most contain half). So, yeah, logically Obito's body isn't strong enough to contain the Ten Tails. While he may have Uchiha and Senju DNA, he never awoke the Rinnegan naturally and we can't ignore the biggest flaw in this plan - even Madara and Hashirama only have an insignificant amount of the Sage's DNA within them. There's no guarantee Madara could contain the Ten Tails either, especially since the difference between him and the Sage should be even greater than the difference between the Biju and the Ten Tails.

[Olinser]

I don't think the Infinite Tsukuyomi has been activated yet. Remember that it will be used to create the world Obito or Madara wants (depending on who uses the jutsu) so, if Obito had already activated it, at the very least Rin would show up out of nowhere.

As for who is in control... Well, we know that not just anyone can withstand the pressure of containing even the Eight Tails. With Kurama, it seems only an Uzumaki can contain the whole thing (everyone else can at most contain half). So, yeah, logically Obito's body isn't strong enough to contain the Ten Tails. While he may have Uchiha and Senju DNA, he never awoke the Rinnegan naturally and we can't ignore the biggest flaw in this plan - even Madara and Hashirama only have an insignificant amount of the Sage's DNA within them. There's no guarantee Madara could contain the Ten Tails either, especially since the difference between him and the Sage should be even greater than the difference between the Biju and the Ten Tails.

I think you have a bit of a misconception - it's not the pressure that they can't contain. It's the fact that the beast is actively trying to break free. From everything everybody in the Naruto world has said, with regards to the Jinchuriki, the only question is WHEN the beast is going to break out - not IF. And it applies to ALL of the tailed beasts. Remember that Obito just told us a couple chapters ago that the mist Ninja put the 3-tailed beast inside Rin, planning for it to break free and go berserk inside Konoha.

Nobody has the willpower or chakra to indefinitely contain a tailed beast that is actively trying to break out. My impression of that necklace that Naruto won from Tsunade was that it was specifically made so Hashirama could help his wife contain the Kyuubi.

Killer B isn't any more suited to containing a tailed beast than any other Cloud ninja. But B basically formed a pact with the 8-tails, so it isn't constantly trying to break free anymore.

Likewise with Naruto - he was barely able to contain Kurama when he was actively trying to break free, even at only half power. Without Minato and Kushina, the Kyuubi would have broken out at least twice - and probably 3 or 4 times, if you include the times that Yamato suppressed him. At full power, they had to wait until Kushina was a fully grown ninja before they were willing to risk putting the Kyuubi inside her. And even then, Minato would have had to help her re-seal the Kyuubi when the seal weakened.

Basically, NOBODY alone can contain a tailed beast forever if they don't want to be contained. They an keep them chained for a while, and use a lot of their chakra for that period, but they are eventually going to break out.

[Sotharsyl]

I'm telling ya, Sasuke is in full Dr Horrible mode.

"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it!"

Not sure if want ...

I'd be most interested in Sasuke and Hinata's songs though :smalltongue:

[Somewhere]

Viz's translation of Kishi's ToC comment for issue #33 since I still haven't seen a scan of the raw ToC page:

"I switched my toilet paper brand. The new one is perfect for me and my hemorrhoids."

....uh, thanks for telling the WSJ audience that, Kishi.

So the version of ch 638 that NA WSJ ran is actually the full colour digital version (I presume as part of the kicking off of the digital version of WSJ in Japan). Three things:
1. When Obito was lying down on the statue before becoming the jinchuuriki, Obito's hair was white!? Or am I not seeing things right?
2. When Obito smashed through Hashirama and Tobirama at the last page, while Tobirama's insides are paper/dust like the usual Edo Tensei zombie, Hashirama's actually brown wood. Consider me surprised. Unless that was a wood clone there.
3. Looking at this in full colour reinforces that I miss Kishi's character design style from part I.

[LaZodiac]

Viz's translation of Kishi's ToC comment for issue #33 since I still haven't seen a scan of the raw ToC page:

"I switched my toilet paper brand. The new one is perfect for me and my hemorrhoids."

....uh, thanks for telling the WSJ audience that, Kishi.

So the version of ch 638 that NA WSJ ran is actually the full colour digital version (I presume as part of the kicking off of the digital version of WSJ in Japan). Three things:
1. When Obito was lying down on the statue before becoming the jinchuuriki, Obito's hair was white!? Or am I not seeing things right?
2. When Obito smashed through Hashirama and Tobirama at the last page, while Tobirama's insides are paper/dust like the usual Edo Tensei zombie, Hashirama's actually brown wood. Consider me surprised. Unless that was a wood clone there.
3. Looking at this in full colour reinforces that I miss Kishi's character design style from part I.

Kishi be trollin' yo.

I miss his designs too, though I sadly cannot see the color pages myself. Also, it was probably a wood clone.

[Infernally Clay]

Regarding Obito's hair going white... Madara was forcing him to use Rinne Tensei, which turned Nagato's hair white as well. It just does that to you. Somehow Obito overcame Madara's control before the jutsu killed him and instead used a jutsu to seal the Ten Tails inside himself.

[ben-zayb]

Regarding Obito's hair going white... Madara was forcing him to use Rinne Tensei, which turned Nagato's hair white as well. It just does that to you. Somehow Obito overcame Madara's control before the jutsu killed him and instead used a jutsu to seal the Ten Tails inside himself.

I'm pretty sure the Rinne Tensei attempt never even happened, because as Naruto already explained, the seals were different.

EDIT: Before the new chapter comes up, just found out they had a colored version (http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/5p4oczae40vzuk8dlq2qno4yfmpq0u75/) for the WSJ's 45th Anniversary. Obito looks far creepier, and somehow reminds me of Bleach hollows (Ichigo's in particular).

[Kato]

New chapter.


A whole bunch of stuff happening but mostly action-y. Obito has a lot of fancy new skills but is not yet in full control of his powers. But in the end Naruto is in danger. Geez, I wonder if he will make it.... :smalltongue:

Madara can finally indulge in his man crush.

Also, if Sarutobi or Minato do not at some point try to use Death God on Obito I'll be pissed.

[LaZodiac]

This was an alright chapter.

Big ole fat Jubeito is kind of funny. Also, SASUKE will DELETE the PAST!

[Olinser]

Sasuke's statement in the 2nd to last panel looks like it's confirming what I've been saying about him the whole time. His problem with Obito and Madara's plan is that Sasuke wants to be the one in charge.

I fully expect there to be another fight as soon as Obito and Madara bite it.

[Sotharsyl]

This was an alright chapter.

Big ole fat Jubeito is kind of funny. Also, SASUKE will DELETE the PAST!


All that shoving ice-cream into his face while crying about Rin is finally showing.

Also Sasuke confirmed for Dr. Who villain "The Avenger" works as a Time Lord title.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not that I object because the last thing this book needs is more padding but...

Naruto's time to master Jinchuriki powers: years and the whole manga

Tobito's time to master Jinchuriki powers: about a minute, tops

:smalltongue:

[Olinser]

Not that I object because the last thing this book needs is more padding but...

Naruto's time to master Jinchuriki powers: years and the whole manga

Tobito's time to master Jinchuriki powers: about a minute, tops

:smalltongue:

He hasn't mastered them. He's just leeching it's chakra and throwing out raw power moves.

[LaZodiac]

Not that I object because the last thing this book needs is more padding but...

Naruto's time to master Jinchuriki powers: years and the whole manga

Tobito's time to master Jinchuriki powers: about a minute, tops

:smalltongue:

As Olinser said. Additionaly, the Jubei is a mindless beast, with no emotion to really pull AGAINEST you when you try to use it's power. So arguably it would be easier to master, if you could contain all that chakra.

[Olinser]

As Olinser said. Additionaly, the Jubei is a mindless beast, with no emotion to really pull AGAINEST you when you try to use it's power. So arguably it would be easier to master, if you could contain all that chakra.

ACTUALLY, that brings up an interesting discussion I had with one of my buddies.

I personally think that the only reason that the Juubi is a mindless beast is because it isn't complete.

Remember, the 8 and 9 tails are still free, only a small part of their chakra was absorbed into the Juubi, while the other beasts were absorbed completely.

The Juubi may be in basically in the Kurama 'blood tails' mode right now. When Naruto was taken over by the power and he manifested the various amount of tails, he became just a raging beast, despite the fact that Kurama is a very intelligent being.

Right now, the Juubi is still contained in the statue, and it has raw power, but it doesn't have the intelligence, personality, or control that it would have as a complete being.

IF the 8 and 9 tails were to be absorbed in, it might get to it's complete form, and possibly have a coherent intelligence and personality.

[LaZodiac]

It probably could! Looks like things have backfired for our villains.

[Olinser]

It probably could! Looks like things have backfired for our villains.

Nah, I'm still convinced this is, "Just as planned" for Madara. :smallamused:

[Socratov]

New chapter.


A whole bunch of stuff happening but mostly action-y. Obito has a lot of fancy new skills but is not yet in full control of his powers. But in the end Naruto is in danger. Geez, I wonder if he will make it.... :smalltongue:

Madara can finally indulge in his man crush.

Also, if Sarutobi or Minato do not at some point try to use Death God on Obito I'll be pissed.


emphais mine, no they can't. The price for the Death God's release is literally your life. You forfeit your life in return for a favor from the Death God. Since the third and Fourth are both not alive (as in , without soul) they can't trade it for a favor form the Death God. Simple math really: you can't substract what you don't have in a natural number system (where negative numbers don't exits), if only contemporary bankers had though of this...

On the chapter, rather interesting: the plot is moving, we get to see cool jutsus from the past badasses (still, Fourth why you no teach naruto flying thunder god in some way or other or have him inherit it from you!) along with an array of techniques form Obito in jinchuuriki form. I expect lots of goodness in the coming episodes. Oh, and yes I do ignore all the Sasuke bits...

All in all, I liked this chapter. It sense (ish), good pacing, no real story flaws and cool stuff. ( but then again, I'm easy to please :smalltongue:)

[Fostire]

emphais mine, no they can't. The price for the Death God's release is literally your life. You forfeit your life in return for a favor from the Death God. Since the third and Fourth are both not alive (as in , without soul) they can't trade it for a favor form the Death God. Simple math really: you can't substract what you don't have in a natural number system (where negative numbers don't exits), if only contemporary bankers had though of this...

They do have a soul. Orochimaru and sasuke took them out of the death god.

[Olinser]

emphais mine, no they can't. The price for the Death God's release is literally your life. You forfeit your life in return for a favor from the Death God. Since the third and Fourth are both not alive (as in , without soul) they can't trade it for a favor form the Death God. Simple math really: you can't substract what you don't have in a natural number system (where negative numbers don't exits), if only contemporary bankers had though of this...

On the chapter, rather interesting: the plot is moving, we get to see cool jutsus from the past badasses (still, Fourth why you no teach naruto flying thunder god in some way or other or have him inherit it from you!) along with an array of techniques form Obito in jinchuuriki form. I expect lots of goodness in the coming episodes. Oh, and yes I do ignore all the Sasuke bits...

All in all, I liked this chapter. It sense (ish), good pacing, no real story flaws and cool stuff. ( but then again, I'm easy to please :smalltongue:)

Incorrect. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd were explicitly not able to be Edo Tensei revived by Kabuto (and the 4th by Orochimaru before him) because their souls were sealed. Apparently, they were sealed in the mask of the death god in the Uzumaki compound. Orochimaru figured it out, and cracked the mask open, releasing their souls. THEN he was able to revive them.

Presumably, the reason nobody had freed the soul of the 4th before, was that as a kinjutsu, nobody really remembered how to perform it. Presumably, it started out as a final suicide attack in the Uzumaki clan. You sacrifice yourself to kill somebody else - maybe they did something with the souls once they were in the mask, even if it was just set them free to go on to the next life. When the 3rd figured out the jutsu, and taught it to the 4th, he simply didn't know that the souls were sealed inside the mask. He thought they were permanently sealed.

They most definitely could use the Death God seal at this point. In fact, that might actually be the best option available to them against Madara, it has already proven effective against Edo Tensei zombies.

Whether it will work on OBITO is an entirely different matter. I seriously doubt any of them, with the possible exception of Hashirama, has the power to drag out the Juubi.

[Infernally Clay]

Nah, I'm still convinced this is, "Just as planned" for Madara. :smallamused:

I dunno 'bout that. He was visibly annoyed that he was revived with Edo Tensei and even moreso that he was revived before the Ten Tails was itself "complete". He called Obito impatient, if I recall. Of course, this is Madara we're talking about and he has plenty of back up plans. I mean, the original plan was to have Nagato gather the Biju and use Rinne Tensei to revive Madara - and even after that plan failed and Madara's other plan (to have Obito use Rinne Tensei instead) failed, Madara hasn't lost his composure or anything.

That doesn't mean everything is going according to plan, however. By the way he's talking, he had no intention of using his "trump card".

[Soras Teva Gee]

Incorrect. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd were explicitly not able to be Edo Tensei revived by Kabuto (and the 4th by Orochimaru before him) because their souls were sealed. Apparently, they were sealed in the mask of the death god in the Uzumaki compound. Orochimaru figured it out, and cracked the mask open, releasing their souls. THEN he was able to revive them.

Presumably, the reason nobody had freed the soul of the 4th before, was that as a kinjutsu, nobody really remembered how to perform it. Presumably, it started out as a final suicide attack in the Uzumaki clan. You sacrifice yourself to kill somebody else - maybe they did something with the souls once they were in the mask, even if it was just set them free to go on to the next life. When the 3rd figured out the jutsu, and taught it to the 4th, he simply didn't know that the souls were sealed inside the mask. He thought they were permanently sealed.

They were all in the stomach of the Shinigami.

Which is evidently beyond the reach of Edo Tensei, presumably because they are removed from the natural cycle. The Uzumaki mask was an alternate means of summoning and controlling the entity on a sympathetic basis. That's why Orochimaru had to cut his own guts open and immediately body swap.

Presumably no one had done it before because aside even if you had some existential concern for their souls its a bit much to kill yourself over.

While Orochimaru of course had a way out and an external practical reason for bothering to go to the effort to do so.

[Somewhere]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #34:
"[Hai sukoa gaaru] wo yonda. Omoshironatsukashii!! Mukashi no geimu mata yaritakunatta!!"

"I read Hi Score Girl (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=61066). It's interesting and nostalgic!! It made me want to play those old games again!!"

Sadly, only the first chapter has been scanlated. Reading it definitely triggered some nostalgia for me. If you have fond memories of Street Fighter II, definitely worth checking that chapter.

http://helugame.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/highscore-girl-vol-4/
Some person's blog post on the 4th volume...
I'm really intrigued; while the first chapter has the main cast as 6th graders, the 4th volume starts high school, apparently. So ~3-4 years passed between the start and the 4th volume. And accordingly, the 4th volume's moved to the Playstation/Saturn era.
Shame that it's a seinen so there's no furigana crutch. Still, I do have some interest in finding the raws and look through the art of it at least.

Edit: Wait, the 1st chapter's scanlation was released only within a week or two ago. I presume that this is a not-dead project, hell yes.

[Kato]

Re Death God:
While we haven't seen any zombies use the Justu so far we know (as was discussed) they do have souls. So it seems likely they would be able to do that. Though, on the other hand, one could argue since the mask is broken (which for some reason seems to be the corporeal incarnation of the Shinigami's stomach (???????)) it may be impossible to seal souls now which would do... I don't know. I guess it's just a way to say "No, we can't use that."

[Soras Teva Gee]

Umm since when is the mask broken? Unless it was mentioned briefly in a later chapter or something

Because in chapter 618, Orochimaru uses it, has the entity gut itself, then takes it off and performs Edo Tensei. It was still in one piece and all.

While one could argue that our reaper friend should 'die' from cutting open its guts I dare say that I don't exactly consider that all maneuver that fatal to a spectral psychopomp. And that would be the only obvious reason you couldn't use Dead Demon Consuming Seal again.

Heck even if the "wound" is still there rendering imprisonment ineffectig you could presumably still kill people with the tech. Not contain Juubi since they'll reform later or whatever but it might break Edo Tensei and would kill a normal person.

[ben-zayb]

Or... maybe the Death God seal simply has a "does not work for non-living creatures". I mean, what can a dead soul still offer to the Shinigami himself? Maybe the Shinigami has no longer any use for a soul if it isn't from a living source anymore. Kind of like how making a Faustian pact for a soul already claimed by something/someone (death or another devil) else shouldn't work (unless you're Mr. Krabbs or something).

And technically, a person has to be dead and free (not bound to the Shinigami for instance), for his soul to be freely available for Edo Tensei jutsu.

[Kato]

Umm since when is the mask broken? Unless it was mentioned briefly in a later chapter or something


My bad, I somehow thought the mask got broken during the ritual. :smallredface:


Yeah, there are reasons why it might not work but I still hope they try or explain why it won't work instead of never do anything about it.

[Infernally Clay]

I'm not sure you can use Shiki Fujin whilst under the effects of Edo Tensei. It's even debatable if the jutsu would work a second time, plus there'd be no drama. If anyone is going to use Shiki Fujin, though, it'll be Naruto. In fact I'm pretty certain the reason Jinchuriki can't use Shiki Fujin is because the price would be the Biju, not the ninja.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watching the Pain invasion arc in the anime...

1) Ibiki is far more badarse than I had ever imagined.

2) Oh my frag, I hate Pain and all his ilk so much, the whiney little expletive. Death was far too good for him, the entitled little second expletive. (I will just have to content myself with the thought he's probably roasting in some hell dimeonsion, and rightfuly so.) Sorry, Pain, mate, I doubt very much you really know what real suffering is like; you may have had it bad, but other people have had if far, far, far worse than you ever could imagine, you santmonious third expletive. You are not the only one to loose people. Your pain is not special. And all you are doing is throwing a childish little tantrum.

Every time I hear him speak, I only hear Superboy Prime.

I nearly loathe Pain more than Sasuke (at least Sasuke had some redeeming features at some point.)



Speaking of Sasuke, I laughed so, so hard when the "eight tails" poofed into a severed tentacle. Game set and match: Killer Bee.



Danzo. Just Danzo. It's one thing to get the impression on how pants-on-head idiotic he is, and quite another to see it in action...



Plus side: with so much going on there's not been chance for flashbacks for episodes, so there's that...!



I now return you to your regularly scheduled frag-know-show-many-years-ahead discussion of what's happening in the manga...!



Edit: Ahahahahahaha! Pain, you just got schooled by a genin! Go Konohamaru!

[Traab]

Watching the Pain invasion arc in the anime...

1) Ibiki is far more badarse than I had ever imagined.

2) Oh my frag, I hate Pain and all his ilk so much, the whiney little expletive. Death was far too good for him, the entitled little second expletive. (I will just have to content myself with the thought he's probably roasting in some hell dimeonsion, and rightfuly so.) Sorry, Pain, mate, I doubt very much you really know what real suffering is like; you may have had it bad, but other people have had if far, far, far worse than you ever could imagine, you santmonious third expletive. You are not the only one to loose people. Your pain is not special. And all you are doing is throwing a childish little tantrum.

Every time I hear him speak, I only hear Superboy Prime.

I nearly loathe Pain more than Sasuke (at least Sasuke had some redeeming features at some point.)



Speaking of Sasuke, I laughed so, so hard when the "eight tails" poofed into a severed tentacle. Game set and match: Killer Bee.



Danzo. Just Danzo. It's one thing to get the impression on how pants-on-head idiotic he is, and quite another to see it in action...



Plus side: with so much going on there's not been chance for flashbacks for episodes, so there's that...!



I now return you to your regularly scheduled frag-know-show-many-years-ahead discussion of what's happening in the manga...!



Edit: Ahahahahahaha! Pain, you just got schooled by a genin! Go Konohamaru!

Too be fair, Im pretty sure naruto is still technically genin rank.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Too be fair, Im pretty sure naruto is still technically genin rank.

Remember when ninja ranks were relevant?

No neither do I.

[Ramza00]

2) Oh my frag, I hate Pain and all his ilk so much, the whiney little expletive. Death was far too good for him, the entitled little second expletive. (I will just have to content myself with the thought he's probably roasting in some hell dimeonsion, and rightfuly so.) Sorry, Pain, mate, I doubt very much you really know what real suffering is like; you may have had it bad, but other people have had if far, far, far worse than you ever could imagine, you santmonious third expletive. You are not the only one to loose people. Your pain is not special. And all you are doing is throwing a childish little tantrum.
I am pretty sure that Pain's point was that he wasn't special, every smaller nation experienced the same pain that the wars the larger nations/villiage systems created. Pain also made the point how can the hokage the leader of a big nation who performed such travesties said she had it rough when she is leader of a major villiage and thus continues the system.

The only way he is special is that he got roughed up, and he has the power to stop it. He has the power of god, the power of superman, and he is now going to fix the world instead of trying to save it.

[Fjolnir]

Pain: Jiraya killed my dog! I must have VENGEANCE!!!!

[darksolitaire]

Pain: Jiraya killed my dog! I must have VENGEANCE!!!!

He killed my dog.

I killed his hidden village.

(and him)

[Traab]

He killed my dog.

I killed his hidden village.

(and him)

Balance has been restored.

[VanBuren]

Pain: Jiraya killed my dog! I must have VENGEANCE!!!!

Really, that's just poor pacing on Kishi's part. The dog wasn't meant to be one of Nagato's two great pains, but the way that particular chapter ended really made it seem that way.

[Infernally Clay]

Nagato became "evil" because Konohagakure took everything from him. His parents were killed by Konoha-nin, his teacher abandoned him to return to Konohagakure and (as far as he was aware) Konohagakure allied itself with Amegakure to kill Yahiko and destroy Akatsuki. It's no real wonder he flattened the place.

Even then, his goal was to create a world that isn't that much different from our own - just replace the kinjutsu with nukes. Nagato wanted peace, but he thought fear was the only way to do it.

[Sotharsyl]

I am pretty sure that Pain's point was that he wasn't special, every smaller nation experienced the same pain that the wars the larger nations/villiage systems created. Pain also made the point how can the hokage the leader of a big nation who performed such travesties said she had it rough when she is leader of a major villiage and thus continues the system.

The only way he is special is that he got roughed up, and he has the power to stop it. He has the power of god, the power of superman, and he is now going to fix the world instead of trying to save it.

Slow clap.

Completely agreed.

Honestly I don't even think Tsunade really believed what she was saying, she's 50 fought in wars and travelled the world she knows what a **** place it is, I think she just felt the need to reply because she was the Hokage and couldn't let Nagato get away with what he was saying even though it was true.

[Fjolnir]

Really, that's just poor pacing on Kishi's part. The dog wasn't meant to be one of Nagato's two great pains, but the way that particular chapter ended really made it seem that way.

I know it wasn't but you have to admit that some of the bad guys in naruto are almost THAT petty....

[Aotrs Commander]

Having just watched Pain's big spiel, before Hinata came in to Save the Day in what has to be the best confession of love, like, ever, he's even more loathesome then I had thought.

Given his stated plan was to make a big weapon so that people would use it and use it again and again every generation or so to keep the pain fresh. It's not nuclear deterant, repeated nuclear war and pointing at the survivors in the metaphorical irradiated ruins and going "and now you can be as miserable as me!" (And people called the moon's eye plan stupid...)

It's not peace or justice he wanted, no matter how much he bleated and rationalised and deluded himself; he was ultimately throwing a childish screaming tantrum because life wasn't fair and wanted everybody else to be hurt just as much as he did. All his ramblings were just empty, pointless words.

I stand by my prior statement, Nagato was a self-righteous little [excrement]bag who deserves far worse than what he's going to get.

I'm pretty sure I loathe him more than Sasuke, and that's saying something. Hell, he's very neary earned that very special place at the absolute bottom of everything alongside Gladiator (for very similar reasons, as it happens).

He's made this arc... barely tolerable, to be honest1. He's a terrible villain, practically the manifestation on a canon-Stu. There's just something about that particular brand of self-righteous self-delusional arrogance I, to paraphrase Douglas Adams, just really, really, really want to hit with a brick.



Seriously, the any of filler the villains - yes even pants-on-head-fragtarded Raiga for the Curry of Life arc - was better than this.

Sadly, I will now have to wait until about October to see 8-tails Naruto rip him a new one (before daftly not pile driving his skull through the planet's crust, unfortunately).



In short, I really don't like that guy.



1The number of times I actually had to pause the DVD for five minutes while I turned the air blue swearing at him in a most un-typically-urbanely-witty Bleakbanely manner... I don't use full-on profanity f-bombs very often, but Pain warrented both barrels and I can't even begin to self-censor many of the things I called him on these boards, except to say they were the most offensive profanities I could think of, strung together.

[Douglas]

Given his stated plan was to make a big weapon so that people would use it and use it again and again every generation or so to keep the pain fresh. It's not nuclear deterant, repeated nuclear war and pointing at the survivors in the metaphorical irradiated ruins and going "and now you can be as miserable as me!" (And people called the moon's eye plan stupid...)
I'd say actually it is nuclear deterrent, he was just very pessimistic about how long the strength of the deterrence would last. His plan was not "force everybody to use nukes", it was "give everyone nukes and let nature take its course". All the rest was just prediction about how everyone else would handle having nukes.

[Frozen_Feet]

Saying Pain thought his pain was somehow "special" is almost opposite of what he actually thought. Rather, his reply to "your pain isn't special! Everyone feels pain!" was pretty much "Sure they do. Now whatcha gonna do about it?"

[Kato]

Saying Pain thought his pain was somehow "special" is almost opposite of what he actually thought. Rather, his reply to "your pain isn't special! Everyone feels pain!" was pretty much "Sure they do. Now whatcha gonna do about it?"

Yeah... While you are entitled to your opinion, Aorts, I think you're pretty much on your own with that interpretation of Pain's/Nagato's character (well, or at least most people will disagree). Not saying I love him but I give him more credit even if I wouldn't support his plan to pacify the world.

[Traab]

I know it wasn't but you have to admit that some of the bad guys in naruto are almost THAT petty....

I actually prefer the stupid over the petty. Like sasuke ignoring the fact that every single legendary shinobi he had ever heard of at that point, had ALL gotten mind bendingly strong in konoha, including his brother, and he decides leaving the village is the best way to get strong. All because he was jealous of naruto catching up to him, (surpassing his emo ass actually) Its like in his mind all he had to do was let a teacher push a button and BOOM power on tap, but everyone in konoha refused to push that power button for him.

God sasuke was stupid. The only thing that somewhat ameliorated the rank dumbassitude of sasuke was being able to blame the curse seal for screwing with his mind, along with his second dose of tsukiyoma "hate me to get strong" dumbassery from his big bro. I could write a freaking thesis on the various ways various people didnt just hold the idiot ball, they made sweet passionate love to it, then rectally inserted it into themselves.

Here is one I am honestly curious about. WHY ARENT THERE A METRIC BUTTLOAD OF 4 YEAR OLD UCHIHA BABIES?! Seriously, Orochimarus very first step upon getting sasuke should have been to milk him dry of reproductive juice and start creating his own army of super uchiha babies of doom. He couldnt have only had one female (karin) left in his entire army. Even if she somehow was, nothing stopped him from grabbing random women from all over the nations for the same purpose. Instead he relied upon the pure luck of sasuke living long enough to get taken over with no backup in place for the sharingan should the worst occur, or, you know, when he needs another new body later on.

[Olinser]

I actually prefer the stupid over the petty. Like sasuke ignoring the fact that every single legendary shinobi he had ever heard of at that point, had ALL gotten mind bendingly strong in konoha, including his brother, and he decides leaving the village is the best way to get strong. All because he was jealous of naruto catching up to him, (surpassing his emo ass actually) Its like in his mind all he had to do was let a teacher push a button and BOOM power on tap, but everyone in konoha refused to push that power button for him.

God sasuke was stupid. The only thing that somewhat ameliorated the rank dumbassitude of sasuke was being able to blame the curse seal for screwing with his mind, along with his second dose of tsukiyoma "hate me to get strong" dumbassery from his big bro. I could write a freaking thesis on the various ways various people didnt just hold the idiot ball, they made sweet passionate love to it, then rectally inserted it into themselves.

Here is one I am honestly curious about. WHY ARENT THERE A METRIC BUTTLOAD OF 4 YEAR OLD UCHIHA BABIES?! Seriously, Orochimarus very first step upon getting sasuke should have been to milk him dry of reproductive juice and start creating his own army of super uchiha babies of doom. He couldnt have only had one female (karin) left in his entire army. Even if she somehow was, nothing stopped him from grabbing random women from all over the nations for the same purpose. Instead he relied upon the pure luck of sasuke living long enough to get taken over with no backup in place for the sharingan should the worst occur, or, you know, when he needs another new body later on.

Not true. Although Orochimaru was from Konoha, the Sound Four were most definitely NOT, and they were the ones that fed Sasuke the line about Orochimaru making him stronger, and convinced him to leave the village (after thoroughly handing him his ass, I might add).

Also, at that point, Sasuke had seen both Gaara and Zabuza, shinobi completely out of his league, who had no affiliation with Konoha.

With regards to basically Sharingan breeding... that's actually tough to argue one way or the other, there are simply too many unknowns.

As far as we know, the only Shinobi with the Sharingan had 2 Uchiha parents. There is no guarantee a half-Uchiha would have the Sharingan, even when 'full' clan members like Obito couldn't awaken it for an extremely long period of time.

Also, even if you could breed them like that, you could say the same thing about every Kekkai Genkei. Why aren't there 1000 users of every bloodline limit around?

Simple - because the clans jealously guard their limits. Given the way they acted, I would fully expect that any Uchiha half-breeds died quietly in accidents very young (or their parents died just as quietly before ever having kids). The Hyuuga certainly make no bones about the fact that nobody is going to spread the Byakugan around.

What makes you think Sasuke would LET Orochimaru breed an army of Uchiha? Experiments like Yamato proved that even when successful, there is no guarantee they are loyal to Orochimaru.

Plus, Sasuke is a teenager having a temper tantrum. He's not going to sit around for 15 years waiting to breed Uchiha. He wants his jollies NOW, dammit!

[Somewhere]

Half-Uchiha/Hyuuga/so on should work, unless there's quite the amount of incest going on for these family lines.

I also like to think that Uchiha progenitor/passed over son of the sage of six paths back then didn't start his line with his sister.

[Kato]

Half-Uchiha/Hyuuga/so on should work, unless there's quite the amount of incest going on for these family lines.

I also like to think that Uchiha progenitor/passed over son of the sage of six paths back then didn't start his line with his sister.

While it seems pretty unlikely that the kekkai genkai would only work for pure bloods, I'd argue both the Uchiha and probably the Hyuga are such big families incest doesn't matter to them. If your gene pool is sufficiently diverse, say one or two hundred individuals you can live with incest for quite a while if not infinitely.

[Somewhere]

Sure, but to get the pool large enough in the first place, there had to have been some outsiders introduced into the bloodline earlier, assuming we're starting with one progenitor.

[Traab]

Not true. Although Orochimaru was from Konoha, the Sound Four were most definitely NOT, and they were the ones that fed Sasuke the line about Orochimaru making him stronger, and convinced him to leave the village (after thoroughly handing him his ass, I might add).

Also, at that point, Sasuke had seen both Gaara and Zabuza, shinobi completely out of his league, who had no affiliation with Konoha.

With regards to basically Sharingan breeding... that's actually tough to argue one way or the other, there are simply too many unknowns.

As far as we know, the only Shinobi with the Sharingan had 2 Uchiha parents. There is no guarantee a half-Uchiha would have the Sharingan, even when 'full' clan members like Obito couldn't awaken it for an extremely long period of time.

Also, even if you could breed them like that, you could say the same thing about every Kekkai Genkei. Why aren't there 1000 users of every bloodline limit around?

Simple - because the clans jealously guard their limits. Given the way they acted, I would fully expect that any Uchiha half-breeds died quietly in accidents very young (or their parents died just as quietly before ever having kids). The Hyuuga certainly make no bones about the fact that nobody is going to spread the Byakugan around.

What makes you think Sasuke would LET Orochimaru breed an army of Uchiha? Experiments like Yamato proved that even when successful, there is no guarantee they are loyal to Orochimaru.

Plus, Sasuke is a teenager having a temper tantrum. He's not going to sit around for 15 years waiting to breed Uchiha. He wants his jollies NOW, dammit!

The Sound Four, feh, they got their asses handed to them by genin. So in a 4 on one matchup they trounced sasuke, there is some evidence for how awesome they are. :smallamused: And he saw garra.... lose to naruto. He saw zabuza. . . lose to kakashi. (More or less, you get the idea) Meanwhile he saw how strong his brother, the guy he wants to beat, got while being a konoha ninja. He knows about the sanin, all of whom got their title being konoha nin. His village has a massive list of insanely strong ninja past and present, plenty of evidence that yeah, konoha can train them some ass kickingly strong ninja. And yet he runs off to join the guy who barely managed to kill a 170 year old man and failed to heavily damage konoha with TWO ninja villages working with him.

Orochimaru had no problem trying to gene splice bloodline ninja using some of hashiramas cells long after he was dead. I doubt very much he wouldnt have worked with sasukes cells. Its not like sasuke has a freaking choice anymore. He is alone, in a base full of nin who will gladly break his legs on orochimarus orders, and a curse seal that can be used to drop him to the floor shrieking in pain. I forsee test tube clone bodies, artificial insemination on every female with decent potential in arms reach, and possibly even trying to graft genetic material onto living subjects to see if it works. Having sasukes body is only good for 3 years, then he is screwed and all done with the sharingan. I cant see how anyone with a functioning brain wouldnt have thought of that downside to possessing the "last" uchiha.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Here is one I am honestly curious about. WHY ARENT THERE A METRIC BUTTLOAD OF 4 YEAR OLD UCHIHA BABIES?! Seriously, Orochimarus very first step upon getting sasuke should have been to milk him dry of reproductive juice and start creating his own army of super uchiha babies of doom.

Because Sasuke might balk at being given a cup and told to get busy?

Because remember how not all Uchiha manifest the Sharingan?

Because a body he needs to inhabit needs to be reasonably strong ninja in the first place so he'd have to actually raise and train them. Doesn't matter what you see if your body isn't fast enough to do anything about it.

Also that would possibly leave a bunch of capable Sharingan users lying around and they are congenitally evil ****scrapes remember?

Oh and he doesn't have 10-15 years for them to stop being children. He's form Akatsuki, we can presume he had some idea of their timeline.

A very irresponsible policy if you ask me.

[Traab]

Because Sasuke might balk at being given a cup and told to get busy?

Because remember how not all Uchiha manifest the Sharingan?

Because a body he needs to inhabit needs to be reasonably strong ninja in the first place so he'd have to actually raise and train them. Doesn't matter what you see if your body isn't fast enough to do anything about it.

Also that would possibly leave a bunch of capable Sharingan users lying around and they are congenitally evil ****scrapes remember?

Oh and he doesn't have 10-15 years for them to stop being children. He's form Akatsuki, we can presume he had some idea of their timeline.

A very irresponsible policy if you ask me.

Meh, he is raising the uchiha babies of doom from birth, BRAINWASH THE ^%%$#&^$%&^%$! He can do standard brain washing, curse marks to ensure loyalty, and whatever else he wants to do. And orochimaru is immortal, he has time to work on perfecting his process of growing his own personal clone troops with active sharingans. But he had only a limited time to gather the needed materials to do his experiments with. And once again, sasuke has no effing choice. He is marked, he is in orochimarus base, and he has nowhere else to go. If orochimaru tells him to wank off in a cup while kabuto films it "for posterity" then he will do it. Or he will get knocked out during a standard physical, or while being healed from "accidentally" getting injured while training and they will milk him dry. Send the material to a new base sasuke doesnt get told about and take your time perfecting whatever path he prefers to take. In the end he doesnt ever have to know it happened.

As for not all uchiha activate the bloodline. Meh, they are expendable, and I think its fairly well known that near death experiences activate and advance the standard sharingan. Get them basically trained, then put them in near death scenarios and whichever ones survive and activate it, sweet! Those who dont? Meh, more tube babies where they came from. Hell, if he ever learned how to get the mangekyo he can eventually force the survivors to fight each other to the death or something so the winners guilt forms it, then instantly take him over while he is exhausted from the fight. Then wait until your next batch of staggered uchiha babies finishes growing for the next three years and repeat till you learn everything.

[The Troubadour]

I get the feeling the writer simply didn't think enough about all the things Orochimaru could have done.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Meh, he is raising the uchiha babies of doom from birth, BRAINWASH THE ^%%$#&^$%&^%$! He can do standard brain washing, curse marks to ensure loyalty, and whatever else he wants to do.

Ahh yes the 100% effective Brainwash no Jutsu he used in which chapter again? I'm not seeing it listed on the wiki.

Oh he's got a lot of people that are much too loyal too him... but he's basically manipulated them as people. Orochimaru is good at generating creepy loyalty but by being good he also presumably has some grasp of how it can't be done too. Thus how he does it is how he can do it.

Or in other words as pure plot device because that's the premise so you make the details to suit it. That doesn't imply there's some magical ability to perfectly control other people being under utilized though.

(No not Edo Tensei, which clearly could be abused far more and thus is a separate issue)


And once again, sasuke has no effing choice. He is marked, he is in orochimarus base, and he has nowhere else to go. If orochimaru tells him to wank off in a cup while kabuto films it "for posterity" then he will do it. Or he will get knocked out during a standard physical, or while being healed from "accidentally" getting injured while training and they will milk him dry. Send the material to a new base sasuke doesnt get told about and take your time perfecting whatever path he prefers to take. In the end he doesnt ever have to know it happened.

Yes Sasuke does indeed have a choice, he can stop cooperating. Thus requiring actual imprisonment until he can be bodyswapped.

Consider how the Sasuke and Sai Arc under this model. Now your entire operation is gone instead of him willingly coming back to you. That presuming Sasuke can't contrive an escape before hand either, because you know he's a damn ninja.

You know why the Evil Overlord List includes treating your own people well? Because its the exact sort of thing that pays dividends when stuff inevitably doesn't go exactly according to plan.


As for not all uchiha activate the bloodline. Meh, they are expendable, and I think its fairly well known that near death experiences activate and advance the standard sharingan. Get them basically trained, then put them in near death scenarios and whichever ones survive and activate it, sweet! Those who dont? Meh, more tube babies where they came from. Hell, if he ever learned how to get the mangekyo he can eventually force the survivors to fight each other to the death or something so the winners guilt forms it, then instantly take him over while he is exhausted from the fight. Then wait until your next batch of staggered uchiha babies finishes growing for the next three years and repeat till you learn everything.

And in 30 years when this is all set fully realized adult Hokage Uzumaki smashes the whole thing to ruins because its small potatoes next to the Ten Tails and Akasuki he beat in the meantime.

Assuming before that say Jiraiya didn't spy out and realize this much more monstrously evil plan and get the Leaf to nip it in the bug. Sasuke and Sai Arc would kinda be a tip-off again that he probably shouldn't be leaving the snake alone don't you think.

Or say Danzo who actually you know sent a ninja assasin to stop Orochimaru's plans.

The ninja world does understand the concept of escalation and preemptive action. Even with Tsunade at the helm how do you think Konoha would react to the clan of again congenitally evil ****scrapes they completely justly exterminated already ...being revived and bred for war.

There's not being the smartest ever and then there's suicidally dumb.

If you want the real smart option then for his nominal overall goal Orochimaru should clearly have just hid himself in a laboratory scavenging test subjects and never having been a main villain in the first place.

[Kato]

Ahh yes the 100% effective Brainwash no Jutsu he used in which chapter again? I'm not seeing it listed on the wiki.
He doesn't need brainwashing no jutsu... They are babies he would be raising. It is called "education". :smallconfused: You can raise a child with whatever morality you desire if you have complete control over their upbringing.



Yes Sasuke does indeed have a choice, he can stop cooperating. Thus requiring actual imprisonment until he can be bodyswapped.
Well... Sasuke is a teenage boy. I'm sure there would be suffcient genetic material available for Oro to do what he wants with. How he is going to get it is up to him, I guess. (and I'll stop here :smalleek:)



You know why the Evil Overlord List includes treating your own people well? Because its the exact sort of thing that pays dividends when stuff inevitably doesn't go exactly according to plan.
Because treating Sasuke well worked so great for Oro? Both knew the other was only using him. Strapping him to a chair and never allow Sasuke to move would have been a much smarter move if he didn't want a fit, strong Uchiha body to occupy later.

[Traab]

Ahh yes the 100% effective Brainwash no Jutsu he used in which chapter again? I'm not seeing it listed on the wiki.

Oh he's got a lot of people that are much too loyal too him... but he's basically manipulated them as people. Orochimaru is good at generating creepy loyalty but by being good he also presumably has some grasp of how it can't be done too. Thus how he does it is how he can do it.

Or in other words as pure plot device because that's the premise so you make the details to suit it. That doesn't imply there's some magical ability to perfectly control other people being under utilized though.

(No not Edo Tensei, which clearly could be abused far more and thus is a separate issue)



Yes Sasuke does indeed have a choice, he can stop cooperating. Thus requiring actual imprisonment until he can be bodyswapped.

Consider how the Sasuke and Sai Arc under this model. Now your entire operation is gone instead of him willingly coming back to you. That presuming Sasuke can't contrive an escape before hand either, because you know he's a damn ninja.

You know why the Evil Overlord List includes treating your own people well? Because its the exact sort of thing that pays dividends when stuff inevitably doesn't go exactly according to plan.



And in 30 years when this is all set fully realized adult Hokage Uzumaki smashes the whole thing to ruins because its small potatoes next to the Ten Tails and Akasuki he beat in the meantime.

Assuming before that say Jiraiya didn't spy out and realize this much more monstrously evil plan and get the Leaf to nip it in the bug. Sasuke and Sai Arc would kinda be a tip-off again that he probably shouldn't be leaving the snake alone don't you think.

Or say Danzo who actually you know sent a ninja assasin to stop Orochimaru's plans.

The ninja world does understand the concept of escalation and preemptive action. Even with Tsunade at the helm how do you think Konoha would react to the clan of again congenitally evil ****scrapes they completely justly exterminated already ...being revived and bred for war.

There's not being the smartest ever and then there's suicidally dumb.

If you want the real smart option then for his nominal overall goal Orochimaru should clearly have just hid himself in a laboratory scavenging test subjects and never having been a main villain in the first place.

First off, I wouldnt be surprised if there were brainwash no jutsus out there, but thats not what im talking about. Im talking standard brainwashing techniques that exist irl, and can be applied from birth on up. Combine that with mind twisting curse seals that help to enforce loyalty and you have at least reasonably loyal peons.

Sasuke wouldnt stop cooperating. Orochimaru is his only choice left for growing strong enough to kill itachi. He wont just sit in a cell watching his body atrophy out of stubbornness, and even if he did, that is literally only a hiccup in orochimarus plans. I think that was one of the biggest failings in this character. He is fundamentally immortal now. He can afford to take his time. If the uchiha wants to be an ass about things. Pluck his eyes out, transplant one like kakashi save the other for the next body, and forcefully remove all genetic material he will ever need. Its not ideal, but it will do for a start. After all, he primarily wants the sharingan to learn all jutsus. Its less about winning fights with it and more about learning really fast. As for the evil overlords list, that only holds true when your peon isnt as traitorous as you. Sasuke has already left one place that treated him well, konoha. What would make orochimaru think this time would be any different?

Yes, because orochimaru knew back when naruto was 12 that he would grow up to be an ultimate sage badass. You cant look back on how things turned out and say, "See? That was the best way after all!" Orochimaru is immortal, not prescient. Here is what he knows as of sasuke first reaching him. "I have three years before I can take his body. I will have three years after taking his body to learn as much as I can. After that, no more uchiha. How can I fix that? UCHIHA BABIES OF DOOOOOOOM!!!" (I apologize for the babies of doom thing, it was in a story I read and has stuck in my mind ever since) Unless orochimaru WANTS to only have a single 3 year shot with the sharingan, he has to make more uchiha bodies somehow. He has, ideally, 6 years to gather the needed materials for reproduction.

Once again, orochimaru seems to suck at long term thinking. Worst case scenario, he goes to ground and doesnt do ANYTHING until this ludicrously powerful generation ages out of the system. Meanwhile he quietly studies, masters everything with his uchiha babies, and trains, waiting for when its time to make his move. Konoha at this point will survive another generation and orochimaru can always destroy it then.

[Tebryn]

Here is one I am honestly curious about. WHY ARENT THERE A METRIC BUTTLOAD OF 4 YEAR OLD UCHIHA BABIES?! Seriously, Orochimarus very first step upon getting sasuke should have been to milk him dry of reproductive juice and start creating his own army of super uchiha babies of doom.

Because Naruto is a manga directed primarily at an age range where a story line about a teenager being forced into a life of potentially forced prostitution may be deemed not appropriate. That's just me going on a limb here.

[Frozen_Feet]

I would buy that, but forced breeding of rare bloodlines, child soldiering, ethically questionable genetic experiments etc. are already part of the story. Naruto universe is damn bleak, and a lot of characters display intimate understanding of its bleakness.

It would've fit the story just fine. My theory is that Orochimaru was looking forward to starting the baby boom more... personally. :smallamused:

[Aotrs Commander]

The crux of Pain's plan was "I want to make every else hurt just as much as me" which is pretty much the textbook definition of petty vengeance.

But it's his delusion of doing the right thing that makes me so angry, more than the act itself; if he'd cacklingly revealed his plan Davros-style I'd actually have had a lot more time for him.

But I'm sorry, if you are evil, you can't play for sympathy. EVER. Evil is ALWAYS a choice (being dominated means you aren't responsible); the moment you decide your feelings are more important than other people's lives REGARDLESS of the reasons (honour, vengeance, love, it is completely irrelevant), you're evil. Now, I'm fine with people making that choice, being on the Evil side of the fence myself; but don't ever delude yourself it's not your deliberate choice to do so or that there is EVER any kind of excuse for it, because there NEVER is; there is only poor rationalisation.




Once again, orochimaru seems to suck at long term thinking. Worst case scenario, he goes to ground and doesnt do ANYTHING until this ludicrously powerful generation ages out of the system. Meanwhile he quietly studies, masters everything with his uchiha babies, and trains, waiting for when its time to make his move. Konoha at this point will survive another generation and orochimaru can always destroy it then.

Arguably the better option would been have to nicked some of Itachi's/Sasuke hair (while they were both Akatsuki in the case of the former, a simple break-in to Sasuke's house for the latter) or a few drops of blood (find a recent fight, stage a fight with minions or something), nick their drinking cups whatever else CSI-DNA nicking tricks you can think of, build up a nice sample set quietly and then sit back and wait until all the Leet Uberninja kark it, nick a few bandits for bodies in the mean time and quietly experiment with your samples. Supplement them with stuff from any re-established Uchiha clan. Maybe try nicking one when there's a few more floating around spare and no-one paying so much attention.

(If he'd swiped someone when the clan was still active and made it look like mission attrition...)

This would also have the likely by-product of Roachy learning of the, as Soras so delicately puts it, congenitally evil ****scrape problem, which could be a bit unfortunate if he'd happened to find out about that while in Sasuke's body...

[Tebryn]

I would buy that, but forced breeding of rare bloodlines, child soldiering, ethically questionable genetic experiments etc. are already part of the story. Naruto universe is damn bleak, and a lot of characters display intimate understanding of its bleakness.

It would've fit the story just fine. My theory is that Orochimaru was looking forward to starting the baby boom more... personally. :smallamused:

It is but not that explicit or overt and the actual moral and ethical dilemmas these realities pose are never really explored any further than "X is Bad." and "Y is Good." which is fine, Naruto isn't trying to be something it's not after all and any further delving in the format we're given the story in would come across as silly rather than cogent social commentary. Had Naruto been written for a slightly older age group I wouldn't see it being included as being an issue that publishing executives might have an issue with. Plenty of other manga do it and sell well. But bleak, dark and gritty doesn't sell toys, movies or snack foods the same way as a top billed shonen manga does.

There's also the fact that parents, social groups and media organizations like to find something to be incensed about. If you had some manga targeted at younger kids blatantly going on about a story where a young teenager is being used as the local sperm bank to field an army of indoctrinated child soldiers potentially against his will...I suspect there would be a few groups lining up to scream and rant about the moral decay of society or some such. A smart business man or a prudent person not wanting to deal with the drama would likely shy away from those things. :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

He doesn't need brainwashing no jutsu... They are babies he would be raising. It is called "education". :smallconfused: You can raise a child with whatever morality you desire if you have complete control over their upbringing.

Which worked out great for Orochimaru himself, among many other examples. It produced such a fine Konoha loyalist after all.

That's the sort of problem that makes "raise a bunch of little kids" a loosing proposition. Lots and lots of work without much garuntee of success.

That's not some mythical wasted idea... its just a dumb one. Needlessly high risk and high investment.



Well... Sasuke is a teenage boy. I'm sure there would be suffcient genetic material available for Oro to do what he wants with. How he is going to get it is up to him, I guess. (and I'll stop here :smalleek:)

Yes and the wangsting teenage boy motivated by the death of his entire family won't react to... his entire family being raised as little slaves for Orochimaru who he is merely maintaining a business relationship with.

And Orochimaru has a perfect ability to conceal this while also teaching Sasuke.


Because treating Sasuke well worked so great for Oro? Both knew the other was only using him. Strapping him to a chair and never allow Sasuke to move would have been a much smarter move if he didn't want a fit, strong Uchiha body to occupy later.

Sure it would have been safer, but also have the serious consequences for his actual goal as you note.

Its worth noting that ultimately Orochimaru's plan worked, he did possess Sasuke in the end. Its just that was after Kishi had decided the story was about Haxigan users so they always win anyways.


Yes, because orochimaru knew back when naruto was 12 that he would grow up to be an ultimate sage badass. You cant look back on how things turned out and say, "See? That was the best way after all!" Orochimaru is immortal, not prescient.

I'm doing no such thing.

The point is that you can't control reality those are merely object lessons in how. Its not some videogame where the plot will just wait around while you grind up all your stats to the max and make everything a cakewalk. (Even the timeskip was pressing credulity)

The specific are merely some object examples, but the general nature of things like that is always possible. Not Danzo sending Sai in particular, but any of the numerous factions of the ninja world looking at "oh look what this jerk just did, maybe he shouldn't be left alone" and taking action.

As long as Sasuke is a willing participant and alive though then the nominal worst is that Oro has to pull stakes out of one base and move to another. Potential enemies will certainly have more trouble with the independent initiative of a cooperative Sasuke then any prisoner.

And anything that can corner and kill Sasuke isn't going to have trouble with a bunch of kids so that's fake redundancy for a lot of work.

[Traab]

Yes, less than 1% of the entire ninja population goes rogue and clearly educating them in loyalty is a bad gamble to take. Not too mention the difference between education and indoctrination. In all reality, its closer to ROOT than standard konoha shinobi. Those soldiers were mindlessly loyal to danzo period. Sai only eventually changed after excessive exposure to narutos aura of personality alteration, or whatever it is that he does that can make mass murdering psychos break down and cry and admit they love their dead tool before sacrificing their lives. Seriously, his Therapy no Jutsu is terrifying when looked at logically.

Orochimaru is well known for having MANY secret bases. So he doesnt tell sasuke about this one base with a secret project taking place. He only has to hide it for three years. Or even better, collect the material, keep it sealed away, and do nothing with it at all till you can claim his body. That would have been the safest path overall. By the time anyone could get wind of his plan, he is already in his sharingan body and now is massively dangerous in a fight. And yes, its possible his plan could be discovered, thats no excuse to not TRY.

His shortsighted plan worked yeah. He would still be screwed in three years when he lost THAT body had no longer could use the sharingan. Which is my point. There is no way in hell a character like orochimaru wouldnt have thought of this.

Obviously you cant control reality, what you can control is your own plans. And orochimaru had nothing beyond,

1) Train sasuke for 3 years
2) Take his body
3) Profit
4) ?

He had nothing to work with AFTER his short term plan worked out. Thats my problem, THAT is the idiot ball. I know its because there WAS no plan since kishi was going to kill him then bring him back here and whatever, but by not showing us his long term plans beyond, "I will learn every jutsu in the world kukuku" it makes him look like a short sighted fool when his character is supposed to be really clever.

[Kato]

The crux of Pain's plan was "I want to make every else hurt just as much as me" which is pretty much the textbook definition of petty vengeance.

But it's his delusion of doing the right thing that makes me so angry, more than the act itself; if he'd cacklingly revealed his plan Davros-style I'd actually have had a lot more time for him.

But I'm sorry, if you are evil, you can't play for sympathy. EVER. Evil is ALWAYS a choice (being dominated means you aren't responsible); the moment you decide your feelings are more important than other people's lives REGARDLESS of the reasons (honour, vengeance, love, it is completely irrelevant), you're evil. Now, I'm fine with people making that choice, being on the Evil side of the fence myself; but don't ever delude yourself it's not your deliberate choice to do so or that there is EVER any kind of excuse for it, because there NEVER is; there is only poor rationalisation.
So doing an evil act for a good goal is no different than doing an evil act for a good goal? Like, you know, moral grayness? Well-intentioned extremists? Necessary evil?

Because your interpretation is "Nagato is only looking for revenge" doesn't mean it is THE interpretation. The story the manga tells is much different and while we of course can't say whether it is true there is little reason for him to lie about it on many occasions, nor is there any indication of Nagato lying about his intents. Why come up with such a convoluted plan if he could just go around burning cities to the ground with his near godlike powers?
Nope, doesn't add up to me. Of course, still, you are entitled to your opinion but making it state those like outright facts which have a basis in anything we are shown about nagato is just wrong.



There's also the fact that parents, social groups and media organizations like to find something to be incensed about.
Meh, there is so much in Naruto for parents to get angry over (except in the German dub, of course) adding forced child prostitution would hardly have any impact. As was mentioned, child soldiers, experimenting on (among others) little children, murdering little children... What is some pedophilia compared too that? Considering people find Harry Potter offensive, you can pretty much write whatever you want, either you get lucky and people don't care or you don't and people will go on a rampage over it.

[Aotrs Commander]

So doing an evil act for a good goal is no different than doing an evil act for a good goal?

Typo?

Otherwise I'm completely not following that sentence.


Like, you know, moral grayness? Well-intentioned extremists?

Who are almost invariably evil (and I only say "almost" with extreme dubiousness). Extremists and fanatics in particular are almost invariably evil by their very nature, as it anything that has ever uttered a paraphrase of the sentence "I am beyond such petty constriants as good and evil."


Necessary evil?

Is still evil. Even if it really is necessary, that doesn't change that fact. Claiming it isn't, is just rationalisation. Take responsibilty for it. You can say the end justifies the means only if you are prepared to accept that fact that if the means are evil you still did evil and take the consequences for that fact.

Not accepting that is where half the universe's problems come from, because it's dodging YOUR responcibilty for YOUR actions because you can't bring yourself to accept you are doing something wrong.


Because your interpretation is "Nagato is only looking for revenge" doesn't mean it is THE interpretation. The story the manga tells is much different and while we of course can't say whether it is true there is little reason for him to lie about it on many occasions, nor is there any indication of Nagato lying about his intents. Why come up with such a convoluted plan if he could just go around burning cities to the ground with his near godlike powers?
Nope, doesn't add up to me. Of course, still, you are entitled to your opinion but making it state those like outright facts which have a basis in anything we are shown about nagato is just wrong.

He's either so fracking stupid and uneducated he honestly can't tell what he's doing is wrong (and ignorance is no excuse) or he's lying to himself. His whole plan revolves around pain. Making everyone else feel pain (and he said as much after nuking the village "now you will know pain.") Which he even calls himself. And he wants people to go on hurting each other after he's dead, by using his tailed weapon again and again every generation or two so that survivors can know "peace" through pain. He wants everyone to suffer as he has suffered, I mean for crying out loud, that's like his whole schtick! Everyone should feel pain like he has... He's been hard done to, so he's going to make sure as many people as possible suffer just like he has, just so he can feel better about himself because he's brought "peace."

If that isn't petty vegeance I don't know what is.

And on top of that, his delusion is that everyone else will react differently than he himself did about this, i.e. everyone else will just take the pain he's dishing out on the chin and become nonviolent. Which is catalysmically self-centric. He thinks he and only he can solve this problem the way he has come up with, and nevermind that if he's inflicting the exact pain that he has had inflicting on himself, he's just going to create more Pains who are going to go and murder people (and him in particular).



If he really wanted actual peace, he might be trying to do things like put the tailed beasts beyond use somehow, and taking away the ability to fight (while taking away as much of the metal supplies he could find wouldn't stop people making weapons, it would definately make it harder) - or better yet, ensuring no-one has a need to fight; a fat and contented population really isn't interested in waging wars and ninja would be reduced to being overly trained odd-job men...

[Ramza00]

@Aotrs Commander, read the magna pain vs nine tails fight prior to watching the anime, the anime ruined this fight and turned it into looney tunes.

I disagree with you on pain he is sympathetic and a good villian, he also introduces a good interaction with naruto.

Naruto is an immovable object, he will save everyone, that is his ninja's way.

Pain is an unstoppable force, he will do anything to achieve peace, pain is not a bad thing of it leads to peace.

Pain has a point the only ninjas who seriously tried to change the world suffered extreme pain during their childhood. Shikamru who has the brains to change the world is contempt to not change it for he not experienced pain.

[Soras Teva Gee]

He had nothing to work with AFTER his short term plan worked out. Thats my problem, THAT is the idiot ball. I know its because there WAS no plan since kishi was going to kill him then bring him back here and whatever, but by not showing us his long term plans beyond, "I will learn every jutsu in the world kukuku" it makes him look like a short sighted fool when his character is supposed to be really clever.

I can agree with some of this... but it has nothing to do with breeding more little Uchiha. I can make the same "and then what" analysis.

However yeah for a sort of general goal like "learn every jutsu" though there's no real direct connection between that and most of what Oro has always been doing. Because its not a goal of any real end just a general objective like "get rich" or something. So presumably everything he does was either to eliminate interference but we never really got that done well.

That said I think there were some reasonably clear implications there was some "plan" given Oro's previous Akatsuki membership was one of the few pre-timeskip facts about them IIRC. We can speculate he had some notion to game whatever the plan was there.

Depending on what that was, since Akatsuki was very evidently revised at least once.

[Traab]

I can agree with some of this... but it has nothing to do with breeding more little Uchiha. I can make the same "and then what" analysis.

However yeah for a sort of general goal like "learn every jutsu" though there's no real direct connection between that and most of what Oro has always been doing. Because its not a goal of any real end just a general objective like "get rich" or something. So presumably everything he does was either to eliminate interference but we never really got that done well.

That said I think there were some reasonably clear implications there was some "plan" given Oro's previous Akatsuki membership was one of the few pre-timeskip facts about them IIRC. We can speculate he had some notion to game whatever the plan was there.

Depending on what that was, since Akatsuki was very evidently revised at least once.

Make babies then what? Keep making babies, taking over the strongest of each 3 year generation, keeping the population under control through making them fight to the death to determine his next vessel, (He was shown doing that during the retrieval arc when he decided he couldnt wait for sasuke anymore) and repeating till the end of the world or whatever.

Obviously this is all just broad strokes of a plan and not perfect, but its still more than orochimaru had. He had the next 6 years planned for upon gaining sasuke, and that was it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Obviously this is all just broad strokes of a plan and not perfect, but its still more than orochimaru had. He had the next 6 years planned for upon gaining sasuke, and that was it.

No he would have had the rest of Sasuke's natural lifetime.

All his other vessels were "too weak" or whatever remember, that's why they required the change outs.

[Traab]

No he would have had the rest of Sasuke's natural lifetime.

All his other vessels were "too weak" or whatever remember, that's why they required the change outs.

I thought he automatically burned through the bodies every 3 years? If it wasnt on a schedule, then why was jiraya so certain they had that time to "rescue" him?

[Douglas]

As I recall, 3 years was the minimum interval - once Orochimaru did a body swap, he was not able to do another until 3 years later. I don't recall it ever being described as a maximum or exact figure, only a minimum.

[Soras Teva Gee]

3 years was the stated minimum at the time. How his whole resurrection figures into this limitation I've got not the foggiest. Guess since he didn't take full possession it didn't count? Or Kishi just kinda forgot. Way back when though yeah the whole allowance of the timeskip was based on this.

However it was also noted that he really can't just take any old body and get a decent result, they're not only weaker but don't last. That's why he only took the one prisoner that survived and that only under duress. Speculatively if he didn't take proper measures he'd kill himself getting trapped in a crappy vessel without a long enough time frame. Remember Sasuke wasn't a first pick, Kimmimaro was considered suitable before getting sick and was all depressed about it.

I'd imagine its all something like trying to put a 5 gallon barrel into a 1 gallon jug. And Sasuke (or Kimmimaro before disease) were instead 10 gallon drums. Not only enough room but a definite upgrade.

[darksolitaire]

New Chapter.

Obito's flailing around somehow reminds me of Tetsuo from Akira anime. So, now Obito is the reincarnation of Sage.

[ben-zayb]

I'm not sure what Kishi is trying to do with Obito. Kishi's sort of pushing him as an unstoppable force, but somehow leaving open to salvation (depending on how one interprets the Team Minato photo).

Am I the only one who had difficulty distinguishing Obito's anatomical features with the terrain? At certain panels, I'm not even sure which one's the ground and which one's his weird bodily expansion.

And is Naruto really the one who needs "keeping up" in battle? Combat tactics and quick thinking under pressure doesn't seem to be his weakness lately anyway, and powerwise he is definitely roided up with Sennin mode and Kyuubi mode.

[Kato]

What's the problem with having avery strong enemy who can still be saved?
Heck, it's not that uncommon to have an enemy you can not defeat but only persuade to give up. I'm not sure if Kishi is going to go that way with Obito but I won't say I'm against it. (Not in the usual "We punch some sense into you" but "we can't defeat you but we can convince you" way)


I always have a problem making out what's going on in these battles, so... *shrug*


I'd guess Minato was more talking in general? Obviously Naruto can keep up with Sasuke, but I guess he's just talking about Sasuke being an Uchiha or... something. Minato hasn't seen his son in forever (does the spiritual encounter from back in the Pain fight count?)


In general... I'd say decent chapter. Yeah, the internal struggle could have been shown over more chapters but meh. It seems a bit like a spontaneous idea Kishi wanted to put it.

[ben-zayb]

I'd guess Minato was more talking in general? Obviously Naruto can keep up with Sasuke, but I guess he's just talking about Sasuke being an Uchiha or... something. Minato hasn't seen his son in forever (does the spiritual encounter from back in the Pain fight count?)

Haven't thought about it before, but it seems that the Minato from before Oro's Edo Tensei is actually a very different Minato in this war.:smalleek:

Then again, he doesn't look so surprised to see Kyuubi-Mode Naruto, so perhaps he was expecting his son to follow his same genius footstep? What are the chances that he is probably expecting Naruto to be as awesome as himself, not knowing his son's past at all! (i.e. being ostracized and flunking ninja academy in general)

[Morph Bark]

By the way, who wants to bet Kushina may end up Edo Tensei'd?

Not entirely serious.

[Silverraptor]

So the sharingan combined with will allows Obito to keep himself intact and become the sage incarnate.:smallyuk:

Also, despite saying he doesn't care about Rin anymore, he seems to still be doing everything he's doing because of her. I understand that your crush died, but does that really warrant destroying the whole world man? Come on!

[Olinser]

No he would have had the rest of Sasuke's natural lifetime.

All his other vessels were "too weak" or whatever remember, that's why they required the change outs.

My impression that he was only changing out from his vessel in the Sasuke Rescue arc because Sarutobi sealed his arms.

He obviously was past the 3 year mark, because he could instantly change, but before his fight with the 3rd he was completely fine, and showed no signs of the debilitation or decay that he did when Sasuke killed him.

My understanding is that his vessel (the one surviving the grand melee) was a last ditch choice that he was forced into. Orochimaru knew he probably wouldn't last, but he didn't really have a choice.

[Olinser]

By the way, who wants to bet Kushina may end up Edo Tensei'd?

Not entirely serious.

Rin is much more likely at this point.

[LaZodiac]

So the sharingan combined with will allows Obito to keep himself intact and become the sage incarnate.:smallyuk:

Also, despite saying he doesn't care about Rin anymore, he seems to still be doing everything he's doing because of her. I understand that your crush died, but does that really warrant destroying the whole world man? Come on!

Obito was lying. Also the eyeballs make him evil.

So...Kishi, buddy. Gonna capatalize on this being a week without One Piece OR Bleach?

Chapter Spoilers: Welp, Obito's God now. Wonder how we'll win the day this time.

I WILL give Kishimoto this. The art of Obito getting torn apart, PRETTY damn awesome.

...guess not.

[Soras Teva Gee]

My impression that he was only changing out from his vessel in the Sasuke Rescue arc because Sarutobi sealed his arms.


Well the curse mark was placed before that so the interest was obviously there from first appearance.

I think the arms thing heightened the urgency but was definitely there from the start.

Part I is mostly free of Kishi changing his mind I think.


Rin is much more likely at this point.

Neither is all that likely. Outside of Chiyo, Haku and the Jinchuriki I can't seem to recall any kunoichi being Edo Tensei'd.

You know because stuff and all.

[Axinian]

My thoughts:

Obito: KANEDAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlTgLsj0Ns8)

[Kato]

So the sharingan combined with will allows Obito to keep himself intact and become the sage incarnate.:smallyuk:

Also, despite saying he doesn't care about Rin anymore, he seems to still be doing everything he's doing because of her. I understand that your crush died, but does that really warrant destroying the whole world man? Come on!


Uhm... so, what is so bad about the former?

And what about destroying the world? Is it so hard to get Obito's motivation, really? :smallmad: Not that I agree but there's quite a difference to "destroying the world".




Neither is all that likely. Outside of Chiyo, Haku and the Jinchuriki I can't seem to recall any kunoichi being Edo Tensei'd.

You know because stuff and all.
Aw, now you are being unfair. He brought back pretty much every famous female ninja we heard of. There aren't that many but just bringing back a bunch of unnamed females would be weird as well, in my opinion.

(Also, Haku's a guy)

[Ramza00]

So plothole? Oroichamru was freely given the choice by kabuto to use kabuto as his vessel while waiting for sasuke. The recent arcs showing kabuto achieving sage mode after modifying his body shows his body is no slouch so why did Oroichamru not take kabuto up on the offer?

If he is afraid of losing a valuable minion he could always edo tensai kabuto

[Olinser]

Well the curse mark was placed before that so the interest was obviously there from first appearance.

I think the arms thing heightened the urgency but was definitely there from the start.

Part I is mostly free of Kishi changing his mind I think.



Neither is all that likely. Outside of Chiyo, Haku and the Jinchuriki I can't seem to recall any kunoichi being Edo Tensei'd.

You know because stuff and all.

Haku is a male.

[Olinser]

So plothole? Oroichamru was freely given the choice by kabuto to use kabuto as his vessel while waiting for sasuke. The recent arcs showing kabuto achieving sage mode after modifying his body shows his body is no slouch so why did Oroichamru not take kabuto up on the offer?

If he is afraid of losing a valuable minion he could always edo tensai kabuto

During the 'battle in the mind' thing with Sasuke, it clearly showed Orochimaru's previous vessels stuck there. I'm pretty sure that none of them are able to be Edo Tensei'd.

Also, Orochimaru doesn't necessarily want powerful ninja as hosts. He wants unique abilities he can't get anywhere else. Sage Mode is a personal achievement, it doesn't require anything special other than training and dedication (and honestly at this point I would be SHOCKED if Orochimaru hadn't already achieved it). The Sharingan, on the other hand, at this point as far as he knew, Itachi and Sasuke were the last living ninja with their own Sharingan (Kakashi's doesn't count since he took it from somebody else, and it has MASSIVE chakra drain because he isn't the original host).

[darksolitaire]

Sage Mode is a personal achievement, it doesn't require anything special other than training and dedication (and honestly at this point I would be SHOCKED if Orochimaru hadn't already achieved it).

Naruto was able to do sage training because he has loads of chakra. Kabuto managed because he had studied Juugo. Kabuto states (http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/16) that Oro couldn't become sage himself, but I'll assume he might be able after being revived and taking chakra from Kabuto.

[Traab]

Haku is a male.

BULL! Haku-chan 4 evar! :smallbiggrin:

[Soras Teva Gee]

(Also, Haku's a guy)


Haku is a male.

Lies! (The joke / your heads)


BULL! Haku-chan 4 evar! :smallbiggrin:

Hey we agree on something afterall.

[Olinser]

Lies! (The joke / your heads)



Hey we agree on something afterall.

He said it himself :smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

Obito was lying. Also the eyeballs make him evil.

So...Kishi, buddy. Gonna capatalize on this being a week without One Piece OR Bleach?

Chapter Spoilers: Welp, Obito's God now. Wonder how we'll win the day this time.

I WILL give Kishimoto this. The art of Obito getting torn apart, PRETTY damn awesome.

...guess not.

I know Obito was lying. I forgot that sarcasm and internet is like oil and water.:smalltongue:



Uhm... so, what is so bad about the former?

And what about destroying the world? Is it so hard to get Obito's motivation, really? :smallmad: Not that I agree but there's quite a difference to "destroying the world".



The Sharingan deus ex machina is at work again. And this time we especially didn't want it to.

And I know he doesn't want to "Destroy the World" per say. But trying to mesmerize everyone in the whole world because he lost his girlfriend seems way to much work then just, say, cast genjutsu on your already presumed dead self and call it a night.

[Somewhere]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #35:
"Ima kazoku ga pikumin buumu. Kodomotachi ga sukina kyara wa chappii. Tashika ni kawai!!"

"Right now there's a Pikmin boom in the household. My kids like Chappii. Certainly it is cute!"

Looking at a Pikmin wiki, I guess Chappii are Bulborbs?

[Kato]

So plothole? Oroichamru was freely given the choice by kabuto to use kabuto as his vessel while waiting for sasuke. The recent arcs showing kabuto achieving sage mode after modifying his body shows his body is no slouch so why did Oroichamru not take kabuto up on the offer?

If he is afraid of losing a valuable minion he could always edo tensai kabuto

I didn't consider what Olinser said about the host's soul (supposedly) being trapped but even if not Kabuto isn't of much interest to him as a body. Yeah, he might be a better choice than random-nin in terms of power but then it was only temporary anyway.
And even if not, it's not a plot hole, it's Oro being stupid. Learn the difference.



The Sharingan deus ex machina is at work again. And this time we especially didn't want it to.

And I know he doesn't want to "Destroy the World" per say. But trying to mesmerize everyone in the whole world because he lost his girlfriend seems way to much work then just, say, cast genjutsu on your already presumed dead self and call it a night.
Well, I wouldn't so much call it Deus Ex Machina wince we know the Sahringan is at least able to control the Kyubi. And the Sage of the Six Paths was also able to control the Yuubi. So I'd argue it somewhat makes sense for the Sharingan/Rinnegan to be of use to Obito.

Regarding the latter: I guess I just have a soft spot for Wellintentioned Extremists. He doesn't want to merely help himself, he wants to help the whole world in his weird, kind of deranged way.


BULL! Haku-chan 4 evar! :smallbiggrin:
*slowly backs away*

[Traab]

*slowly backs away*

Yeeeees! Slowly back away from the truth! Heh, sorry, im a huge fanfic reader and haku's gender has always been a fun thing to pretend to argue over on the message boards.

[Frozen_Feet]

Sharingan being able to resist loss of identity makes sense in many other ways too. It's the copy-eye, remember? Capable of memorizing the smallest of details after observing them once.

It's also linked to obsessive love. Photographic memory + obsession over said memories = strong identity.

[LaZodiac]

Sharingan being able to resist loss of identity makes sense in many other ways too. It's the copy-eye, remember? Capable of memorizing the smallest of details after observing them once.

It's also linked to obsessive love. Photographic memory + obsession over said memories = strong identity.

Yha. I'm okay with the Sharingan being able to keep Obito sensible and thus turn him into basically god.

After all, we've accepted that you can shoot eyeball fire out of your eyeballs because someone made you sad. At this point I have accepted that the Sharingan can do anything and we aren't to question it.

[Ramza00]

Remember we already established the sharingan makes you obessive after experiencing a form of ptsd. In such a situation the memories are scarred onto you so is anybody surprised that obitio can not forget said memories.

[Kato]

Remember we already established the sharingan makes you obessive after experiencing a form of ptsd. In such a situation the memories are scarred onto you so is anybody surprised that obitio can not forget said memories.

Good point. The sharingan makes you love crazy so his obession with love give him 100 times the will power it would normally do.

[darksolitaire]

After all, we've accepted that you can shoot eyeball fire out of your eyeballs because someone made you sad.

...writing it does make it seem little silly. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


And why the heck is Kishi hyping up Sharingan, wasn't Rinnegans supposed to be strongest eyes around?

[Aotrs Commander]

The more this series goes on the sillier and less credulous it gets, I swear. Is Kishi on heavy medication? Because if not, maybe he should start...

I do have the increasingly sad feeling that Naruto, which started off so well and whose fandom has provided me with some many hours of entertainment, it going to limp out on a conclusion that will make Mass Effect 3's look like the ending to Codename Kids Next Door. (Okay, I'm comedically exaggering, I don't think anything could be as bad as ME3's...)

Why are people so bad at writing endings to things that KND was the first thing I could think of with a really good ending and that after a good three or four minute's thought...?

(I think Will of Fire kinda ruined things for me by be being such an astonishingly perfect Naruto story that it is clear it's not going to be topped, especially when you know that the real thing cannot possibly end so well.)

[Starwulf]

(I think Will of Fire kinda ruined things for me by be being such an astonishingly perfect Naruto story that it is clear it's not going to be topped, especially when you know that the real thing cannot possibly end so well.)

Is "Will of Fire" a fanfic? Or a movie? Or an actual arc in the manga/anime? I Just looked up Will of Fire on fanfiction.net, didn't find it there, so I'm guessing either not a FF, or it's hosted on a different site.

Edit: And I answered my own question. It's apparently a Shippuden movie. Damn, here I was hoping for an awesome new fanfic to read. I've just about exhausted all the good/great ones on fanfic.net that are longer then 300k words(I Just can't get into anything shorter, just not enough character/story build-up for me). I'm in the dregs now, stuff that barely rates as "decent".

[LaZodiac]

The more this series goes on the sillier and less credulous it gets, I swear. Is Kishi on heavy medication? Because if not, maybe he should start...

I do have the increasingly sad feeling that Naruto, which started off so well and whose fandom has provided me with some many hours of entertainment, it going to limp out on a conclusion that will make Mass Effect 3's look like the ending to Codename Kids Next Door. (Okay, I'm comedically exaggering, I don't think anything could be as bad as ME3's...)

Why are people so bad at writing endings to things that KND was the first thing I could think of with a really good ending and that after a good three or four minute's thought...?

(I think Will of Fire kinda ruined things for me by be being such an astonishingly perfect Naruto story that it is clear it's not going to be topped, especially when you know that the real thing cannot possibly end so well.)

If the series kept the tone of the Zabuza arc, it would be able to get an ending as good as that. As it stands the series has kind of...lost what it was really about.

[masterjoda99]

If the series kept the tone of the Zabuza arc, it would be able to get an ending as good as that. As it stands the series has kind of...lost what it was really about.

What was the series really about? (I'm not being snarky. If anything, the fact that I need to ask this question in the first place because of how long ago that was only further proves your point.)

[LaZodiac]

What was the series really about? (I'm not being snarky. If anything, the fact that I need to ask this question in the first place because of how long ago that was only further proves your point.)

It was about actual well developed characters, and the harsh consiquences of teaching children to shoot fire, as well as how different cultures might take this idea. It also had one of the most realistic, subtle, and awesome gay relathionship in manga history.

Basically, I want you to compare Zabuza and Haku to Obito, or really anyone with a Sharingan since it's canon that the sharingan makes you emo now.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes, at the very least the quality of the villains took a nose dive after Orochimaru and the story greatly suffers when it becomes essentially Uchiha-centric (either by being about the Uchiha or Naruto's ridiculous Naruto Sasuke obession).


Is "Will of Fire" a fanfic? Or a movie? Or an actual arc in the manga/anime? I Just looked up Will of Fire on fanfiction.net, didn't find it there, so I'm guessing either not a FF, or it's hosted on a different site.

Edit: And I answered my own question. It's apparently a Shippuden movie.

Not just a movie - there is not a gap between the quality of Will of Fire and the previous movies, there is a massive gaping chasm.

In my opinion, it is easily the best Naruto adventure, like, period. It has pathos; it's set just after Asuma's death and pits Naruto and Shikamaru at odds over their methods and beliefs - Naruto's... Naruto-ness verses Shika's hard-won new understanding of what Asuma tried to teach him with his last lesson. And it's a conflict that makes sense, building on the character development on the show. It has excellent battles where all the major Konoha teams get to be awesome (and work as a team), a bad guy that doesn't try to be sympathetic (though that doesn't mean at the last he wasn't, but he doesn't make excuses for himself) - largely because he's narratively there to provide the catalyst for the crux of the conflict (which is between Naruto and Shika) and something for everybody to fight. (His backstory isn't all that important or gone into much detail, because that's not what he's really there for.) Naruto's drive to save his friends that always comes off so badly in regard to Sasuke actually shines like it should. There's no random princess or new characters getting in the way (aside from the bad guys) and taking screen time away from the main cast. And it ends spectacularly and closes out on humour between friends like it should.

It was amazing. Seriously, it was the only Naruto thing I've watched ever that had me still hyped-up and giggling about the following morning. Hell, most regular movies don't manage that!



Damn, here I was hoping for an awesome new fanfic to read. I've just about exhausted all the good/great ones on fanfic.net that are longer then 300k words(I Just can't get into anything shorter, just not enough character/story build-up for me). I'm in the dregs now, stuff that barely rates as "decent".

Yeah, I found that there was less and less good stuff as time went on; Naruto lost a good few fanfic authors hemoharrged to pony (Chengar being one of them). I don't even skim the fanfics anymore, aside from the stories I've got on update; I've almost entirely moved to pony, where time was I read Naruto fanfic daily for a good year or three. I think the drop off of the series quality - because it just isn't quite as good as it was (and the fact that the manga is so far ahead) - has meant people have been less inspired. That and the fact that most of the fan ideas were less far-fetched than the canon story at this point...!

Have there been any really good ones in the last year or so? (I.e. by my definition, stories that don't make Naruto into some sort of ubermacho martystu and just plain better than everyone else (and thus not really Naruto) and keep him as the lovably idiot he is.)