Gnome Illusionist help. (3.5)

[LordErebus12]

im sure people have covered this before, but what would be the best choice of classes for a Gnome Illusionist?

Im playing in Eberron only (meaning nothing from dragonlance, forgotten realms, etc. specific books) with all other 3.5 books allowed (meaning no 3.0 only sources).

11th level.

66k GP left to spend

[Fouredged Sword]

What's that, someone hasn't heard of the killer gnome yet? That's just silly.

Look into shadow craft mage. Pick up earth spell and heighten. Take that level 1 figment that is special to gnome illusionists and go to town with shadow evocation and conjuration.

[LordErebus12]

What's that, someone hasn't heard of the killer gnome yet? That's just silly.

Look into shadow craft mage. Pick up earth spell and heighten. Take that level 1 figment that is special to gnome illusionists and go to town with shadow evocation and conjuration.

ive heard of it, but it calls for some Faerun specific classes/PrCs.

[MirddinEmris]

ive heard of it, but it calls for some Faerun specific classes/PrCs.

No, it doesn't. The main PrC is in the Races of the Stone supplement and others (like Shadowcrafter, which IS from Faerun book Underdark) is just an icing on a cake. Like Fouredged Sword said, get the PrC, Heighten Spell (core) and Earth Spell (Races of the Stone, same book the PrC is from) and you are ready to go. Shadowcrafter aren't really that great since he only increase shadow conj/evoc spells and doesn't affect main feature of a Shadowcraft Mage, personally i prefer Master Specialist and/or Nightmare Spinner plus Dread Witch, though that way you do lose two caster levels.

The main point of a killer gnome is an ability to cast any evocation and conjuration(creation/summoning) from a certain figment spells, making you more spontaneous that spontaneous casters, barring maybe beguiler/rainbow servant. Earth spell (also Metamagic School Focus and Easy Metamagic) allows you to heighten spell more effectively to make your illusions more real (which means, more effective on creatures that makes saving throw) and at certain point of your career the will be more real than reality itself :smallbiggrin: The only downside is that spells casted in such way always allows SR making some conjuration spells less attractive.

[LordErebus12]

personally i prefer Master Specialist and/or Nightmare Spinner plus Dread Witch, though that way you do lose two caster levels.

Any idea where to look for these classes? i do have the pdfs but not the time to scour them for classes, too many prestige classes to look through if you dont know what to look for.

[MirddinEmris]

Any idea where to look for these classes? i do have the pdfs but not the time to scour them for classes, too many prestige classes to look through if you dont know what to look for.

Master specialist is from Complete Mage same as Nightmare Sinner, the latest augments your fear spells and gives you bonus spell slots for illusions but loose caster level and watch those prereqs. Dread Witch is from Heroes of Horrors and it's main feature is ignoring any immunity to fear at 4th level, but loose caster level again. My advice would be to avoid overcomplicating character and simply go with illusionist3/master specialist4/shadowcraft mage5/... or something like that. Also, Illusionist variant from UA os pretty good (also can be found in SRD materials)

[LordErebus12]

Master specialist is from Complete Mage same as Nightmare Sinner, the latest augments your fear spells and gives you bonus spell slots for illusions but loose caster level and watch those prereqs. Dread Witch is from Heroes of Horrors and it's main feature is ignoring any immunity to fear at 4th level, but loose caster level again. My advice would be to avoid overcomplicating character and simply go with illusionist3/master specialist4/shadowcraft mage5/... or something like that. Also, Illusionist variant from UA os pretty good (also can be found in SRD materials)

Thank you for all your help, MirddinEmris.

any ideas on gear beyond what i have?

[MirddinEmris]

Well, any gear/feats that will boost your Int and DC of illusions will be good to go, maybe some runestaff ( from Magic Items Compendium, let you trade your prepared spells for spells in staff couple of times per day ) with spells that occasionally comes useful, but not that often. Runestaff of Divination is my favorite, it really can come handy. Other than that, nothing you will need in particular.

P.S. Only noticed that you have only 11k, which means circlet of +2 to Int and maybe +2 to Con. I don't know of it's really good choice to spend so much money on this instant fortress thing, after all at level 11 you can make one, with spells, albeit temporarily :)

[Urpriest]

Thank you for all your help, MirddinEmris.

any ideas on gear beyond what i have?

Could you tell us what the fortress is for? I assume there's some story requirement?

11k is kind of small to outfit an 11th level character. Not even enough for a Headband of +4 Int!

[LordErebus12]

Could you tell us what the fortress is for? I assume there's some story requirement?

11k is kind of small to outfit an 11th level character. Not even enough for a Headband of +4 Int!

yeah, its a situational object. I've used it in several situations to great effect. I only wish i could have thrown it down the purple worm's throat in the last game i was in, when it swallowed me whole. It makes a unique and valuable weapon.

ive been in a minimalist mood. the last character i had played used only a bag of holding. the rest of the gold was forfeited for an artifact (a dragonshard core for the warforged, which gave him full healing from cure spells and double from repair)

[Fouredged Sword]

That is what feather token (tree) are for. For a portable fortress, instead get a wand of rope trick and call it a day.

[LordErebus12]

That is what feather token (tree) are for. For a portable fortress, instead get a wand of rope trick and call it a day.

the tree would have dissolved and may not have been large enough to choke the damned worm. I rather like the instant fortress as a weapon, imagine a 5 ft diameter worm suddenly finding a 20 feet square and 30 feet high tower growing inside of its gizzard (with me safely inside).

[LordErebus12]

If I don't buy the item, what should I get?

[Fouredged Sword]

+4 headband of int
+2 con bet
+2 dex gloves
+1 smoking defending shield spikes on a +1 twilight light shield
+1 eager warning armor spikes on +1 twilight leather armor
A martial maneuver item of setting sun for countercharge 1/encounter
Haversack
The bedroll that lets you prep spells in 2 hours every few days, get multiple and never need to sleep 8 hours again.

[LordErebus12]

+4 headband of int
+2 con bet
+2 dex gloves
+1 smoking defending shield spikes on a +1 twilight light shield
+1 eager warning armor spikes on +1 twilight leather armor
A martial maneuver item of setting sun for countercharge 1/encounter
Haversack
The bedroll that lets you prep spells in 2 hours every few days, get multiple and never need to sleep 8 hours again.



fair enough
fair enough
fair enough
Smoking and twilight are from what books?
Eager is from MIC, right? Warning?
never heard of it. book?
fair enough
What book?

[Fouredged Sword]

Twilight - Book of Exalted Deeds, decreases arcane spell failure 10%
Smoking - Lords of Darkness, provides miss chance
Eager - arms and equipment (may be disqualified) - Init bonus
Warning - May be disqualified due to faerun, unless reprinted elsewhere

Check the magic item compendium to see if they reprinted eager and warning, if not, then drop the shield.

Martial Maneuvers items are from Tome of Battle, and grant the ability to use one maneuver, once per battle. Counter charge is a counter (use as an immediate action) that prevents a charging character from being able to attack you if you win an opposed dexterity check. It is a great line of defense VS a dragon that decides to ignore the fighter and go after you, as many large creatures lack a good dex score.

Heward's Fortifying Bedroll - Magic item compendium.

[MirddinEmris]

Twillight, Eager and Warning all have been reprinted in MIC. I would still say that +1 Eager Warning Runestaff of Divination is better than armor and shield)

[LordErebus12]

why the runestaff?

[Keld Denar]

Twilight was reprinted not in the MIC, but in the PHBII, wierdly enough in the section on Duskblades who have their own method of mitigating armor which really doesn't mesh well with -X% ACF...

Also, 4Edged forgot Anklets of Translocation. NEVER EVER EVER make a character above 3rd level who doesn't have at least one pair. 1400g from the MIC for 2/day swift action 10' teleports. PRICELESS.

And you don't need the Smoking weapon. ScM comes with it's own built in 40% concealment, and concealment doesn't stack. Also, a Mithril Buckler on its own is cheaper than a +1 Twilight shield. You'll get slightly less armor out of it, but you don't wear a buckler for the armor, you primarily wear it for the extra armor properties, which will be cheaper without having to put Twilight on it.

As far as other classes, Races of Stone, the book ScM is in, also has Earth Dreamer, a really fun 5 level full caster PrC. The 4th and 5th level abilities themselves are pretty awesome, almost broken. You can stay melded inside of a stone wall and cast illusions and other spells out through the stone (because you can see through it). It is pretty crazy if you can really get creative with it, and illusionists are all about being creative. The prereqs for Earth Dreamer are mostly skills + Earth Sense, which is a prereq for Earth Spell which is part of the ScM schtick, so you should easily have all of the prereqs for Earth Dreamer done by the time you finish ScM.

I'd go Illusionist5/ScM5/EarthDreamer5/Something5, possibly Archmage, depending on if you even make it that far.

[LordErebus12]

Twilight was reprinted not in the MIC, but in the PHBII, wierdly enough in the section on Duskblades who have their own method of mitigating armor which really doesn't mesh well with -X% ACF...

Also, 4Edged forgot Anklets of Translocation. NEVER EVER EVER make a character above 3rd level who doesn't have at least one pair. 1400g from the MIC for 2/day swift action 10' teleports. PRICELESS.

Thought about it, most everyone (the casters i mean) have one.

And you don't need the Smoking weapon. ScM comes with it's own built in 40% concealment, and concealment doesn't stack. Also, a Mithril Buckler on its own is cheaper than a +1 Twilight shield. You'll get slightly less armor out of it, but you don't wear a buckler for the armor, you primarily wear it for the extra armor properties, which will be cheaper without having to put Twilight on it.

Im not paying more than 350 gp on a weapon. why would i want a buckler? what shield qualities? What armor Crystals?

As far as other classes, Races of Stone, the book ScM is in, also has Earth Dreamer, a really fun 5 level full caster PrC. The 4th and 5th level abilities themselves are pretty awesome, almost broken. You can stay melded inside of a stone wall and cast illusions and other spells out through the stone (because you can see through it). It is pretty crazy if you can really get creative with it, and illusionists are all about being creative. The prereqs for Earth Dreamer are mostly skills + Earth Sense, which is a prereq for Earth Spell which is part of the ScM schtick, so you should easily have all of the prereqs for Earth Dreamer done by the time you finish ScM.

I'd go Illusionist5/ScM5/EarthDreamer5/Something5, possibly Archmage, depending on if you even make it that far.

okay.

Illusionist X / ScM X / EarthDreamer X
with 11 levels total.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Check here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) before asking where to find a given class/feat/etc.

Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ whatever.
Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level from RoS.
Chains of Disbelief and Shadow Shaper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants). Note that both Chains of Disbelief and Master Specialist's Minor School Esoterica will apply to your shadow illusions, both the disbelief DC and the DC of the spell you're mimicking.
Consider taking a few levels of Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion.

Consider using Focused Specialist in CM for Wizard, for a net gain of +1 illusion spell per spell level. That can make Illusion Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) worthwhile, if you'll be able to take the feat Signature Spell. It's exclusive to FR books, but nothing about the feat itself limits it to that setting. This allows you to spontaneously convert prepared spells into Heightened Silent Images, which you then use to mimic conjuration and evocation spells as shadow illusions.

Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats, I'd pick from Noncombatant, Weak-Willed, Vulnerable, and Murky-Eyed. Note that flaws must be taken "when creating a character" so starting at 11th level, your flaws can appear at any level from 1st-11th. That means you don't have to spend them on 1st level feats.

Your feats have to include Heighten Spell, Earth Sense and Earth Spell (RoS), Spell Focus: Illusion, and Residual Magic (CM). Also highly recommended are Signature Spell: Silent Image, Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Silent Image (or Shadow Illusion, if your DM rules that you can't pick spells for it), Arcane Thesis: Silent Image, Quicken Spell, and Practical Metamagic: Heighten Spell (via spending a feat on Dragontouched, or Draconic template bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), etc.). Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) is the go-to if you have an open feat and can't decide what to get. Obtain Familiar (CA) + Improve Familiar (DMG) for an Imp or Quasit or Pseudodragon is also quite good, if you have two feats to throw away.

For starting items on an 11th level Wizard, I'd go with the following assuming the standard 66k WBL:
Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with +4 Int (MIC p234), 31,000 gp
Anklet of Translocation (MIC), 1,400 gp
Healing Belt (MIC), 750 gp
Two Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend (DMG), 6,000 gp, your life depends on buffs.
Mask of Silent Trickery (MIC), 5,000 gp
+1 Mithral Buckler (DMG), 2,165 gp
^ Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (MIC), 2,500 gp
Necklace of Adaptation (DMG) with +2 Con (MIC p234), 13,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance (DMG) with +1 Deflection to AC (MIC p234), 4,500 gp
2,185 gp remaining for spell components, additional spells, and mundane gear.

[Keld Denar]

You don't need MS4 to get into ScM. You can get into ScM by ECL5, and the more general bonus feat from Wiz5 is better than the feats you get from MS4. This is extra true if he isn't playing with flaws (not everyone does).

I'm also not a huge fan of the Signature Spell trick. It's a win-more situation that costs you 2 feats and makes the spells you convert with it require a full round action (you are applying metamagic, heighten spell, to a spontaneously cast spell, you pay the sorcerer price). Really, with Focused Specialist, you should have PLENTY of slots to dedicate to Heightened Silent Image, at least 2-3 per spell level depending on what other good illusions there are at that level (LEGION OF SENTINELS!). That gives you plenty of versatility without paying extra feats for it.

I'd go Gnome Illusionist 5 (taking only the 1st level racial sub) ScM3/EarthDreamer4. That gives you at the start of the game the ability to see through rock, and you have your Shadow Illusion ability. If you'd rather have the last 2 ScM levels for the extra reality and the extra concealment, just swap 2 of the ED levels over, but ED1 and 2 aren't terribly cool. If you go with the first build, the next time you level up you'll have Earth Glide, which I personally find to be RIDICULOUSLY SEXY. Then again, I guess you have access to 6th level spells from which you can cast Elemental Body for earth and get that ability as well. You still can't see through the rock without ED though, so you are swimming blind.

[LordErebus12]

Flaws are not allowed.

old aged gnome.

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14
Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 16

(Before items)

Wizard (Illusionist) 3 / Master Specialist 4 (CM) / EarthDreamer 4 (RoS)

Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level (RoS)

Variants taken:

Chains of Disbelief (UA)
Shadow Shaper (UA)
Illusion Mastery (UA)
Focused Specialist (CM)


Feats: Earthsense, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion)
Bonus Feats: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)

Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with +4 Int (MIC p234), 31,000 gp
Anklet of Translocation (MIC), 1,400 gp
Healing Belt (MIC), 750 gp
Mask of Silent Trickery (MIC), 5,000 gp
Necklace of Adaptation (DMG) with +2 Con (MIC p234), 13,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance (DMG) with +1 Deflection to AC (MIC p234), 4,500 gp

66,000 gp total
55,650 total gp spent
10,350 gp left

Minimum Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 10 ranks
Minimum CC Skills: Bluff 4 ranks (8 skill points)
Skill points total: 112

Needs:
Help figuring out DC's
Help figuring out the spell list

Link to Character Sheet: HERE (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=582433)

Want:
Stone Boots (Freedom of Movement X/day)

[MirddinEmris]

Flaws are not allowed.

old aged gnome.

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14
Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 16

(Before items)

Wizard (Illusionist) 3 / Master Specialist 4 (CM) / EarthDreamer 4 (RoS)

Gnome Illusionist 1 substitution level (RoS)

Variants taken:

Chains of Disbelief (UA)
Shadow Shaper (UA)
Illusion Mastery (UA)
Focused Specialist (CM)


Feats: Earthsense, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion)
Bonus Feats: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)

Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with +4 Int (MIC p234), 31,000 gp
Anklet of Translocation (MIC), 1,400 gp
Healing Belt (MIC), 750 gp
Mask of Silent Trickery (MIC), 5,000 gp
Necklace of Adaptation (DMG) with +2 Con (MIC p234), 13,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance (DMG) with +1 Deflection to AC (MIC p234), 4,500 gp

66,000 gp total
55,650 total gp spent
10,350 gp left

Minimum Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 10 ranks
Minimum CC Skills: Bluff 4 ranks (8 skill points)
Skill points total: 112

Needs:
Help figuring out DC's
Help figuring out the spell list

Link to Character Sheet: HERE (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=582433)

Want:
Stone Boots (Freedom of Movement X/day)

Errrrrmmm....You replaced Shadowcraft Mage with Earth Dreamer? In that case you really doesn't need Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, because it was only for this PrC trick with heightened illusions.

Runestaff, because it will add more variety to you repertoire - you will be able to cast each spell in this runestaff twice per day for exchange of a spell slot of this level (it doesn't have charges), and Runestaff of Divination because divinations usually fall into category of a very useful spells but in circumstances that doesn't come really often, like teleport (to quote: you don't need it every day but when you need it, you NEED it), so this will allow you to free the slots for spells more useful on everyday basis and still cast divinations when you need them.

P.S. I'd still recommend to swap ED back for ScM, after all you can always take it later and Killer Gnome is Killer Gnome is Killer Gnome after all :smallsmile:

[LordErebus12]

Errrrrmmm....You replaced Shadowcraft Mage with Earth Dreamer? In that case you really doesn't need Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, because it was only for this PrC trick with heightened illusions.

Runestaff, because it will add more variety to your repertoire - you will be able to cast each spell in this runestaff twice per day for exchange of a spell slot of this level (it doesn't have charges), and Runestaff of Divination because divinations usually fall into category of a very useful spells but in circumstances that doesn't come really often, like teleport (to quote: you don't need it every day but when you need it, you NEED it), so this will allow you to free the slots for spells more useful on everyday basis and still cast divinations when you need them.

P.S. I'd still recommend to swap ED back for ScM, after all you can always take it later and Killer Gnome is Killer Gnome is Killer Gnome after all :smallsmile:

I need, what? three levels in ScM?

dont have enough gp.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I need, what? three levels in ScM?

dont have enough gp.

Shadowcraft Mage 3 is what allows you to use Heightened Silent Image to mimic Shadow Conjuration/Evocation. You need to have it in order for the build to function.

[MirddinEmris]

I need, what? three levels in ScM?

dont have enough gp.

Five is better - last level gives you +20% of reality to your shadow illusions, but it's your character, so whatever you feel like :smallsmile:

I noticed that you don't have enough gp, but still ehanted to elaborate why i love runestaffs so much :smalltongue:

[LordErebus12]

Five is better - last level gives you +20% of reality to your shadow illusions, but it's your character, so whatever you feel like :smallsmile:

I noticed that you don't have enough gp, but still ehanted to elaborate why i love runestaffs so much :smalltongue:

is that +20% in addition to the 3rd level ability or do they not stack?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

is that +20% in addition to the 3rd level ability or do they not stack?

It stacks, so it's 10% real per spell level, plus an additional 20% reality at SCM 5.

[LordErebus12]

switched to Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 4