[PF]Theurge Gish

[PlusSixPelican]

Here's a hypothetical progression of a character, I'm curious if it works or not:

Sorcerer4/Oracle4/Mystic Theurge 2/HellKnight Enforcer X.

So, once you get into HellKnight, you use the caster-advancement to advance your Mystic Theurge casting, capping at 20 with 16th level Sorcerer and Oracle casting/spells known. That works, right?

The alternate path would be something like,

Sorcerer (Empyrial)4/Clr3/Mystic Theurge 3/HellKnight Enforcer X (Wis focused instead of Cha) but the preparing divine spells is more book-keeping and the baby-channel would feel kinda sad at high levels.

Anyways, would that produce CL 16 and the spells known on each, or not? Thanks for reading!

[GreenETC]

Mystic Theurge does not have casting which can be advanced, as it is already specific in that it advances two different base classes. Spellcasting advancement of PrCs always has to advance a class that grants spellcasting, not a class that advances other classes.

Don't worry, a lot of people have made this mistake, as it would make Mystic Theurge not suck.

[PlusSixPelican]

Mystic Theurge does not have casting which can be advanced, as it is already specific in that it advances two different base classes. Spellcasting advancement of PrCs always has to advance a class that grants spellcasting, not a class that advances other classes.

Don't worry, a lot of people have made this mistake, as it would make Mystic Theurge not suck.

Well, is there an actual way to make what I was talking about?

[RFLS]

Well, is there an actual way to make what I was talking about?

Keeping it to PF? Short answer: No.

Long answer: Yes, technically, but you will be massively gimped in all aspects of your character because of the way losing caster levels works.

[GreenETC]

The closest thing I can think of is the 3.5 Chameleon PrC, which gets the ability to cast spells from any arcane or divine list, though it doesn't get that much in the Gish department. In PF, I can't think of anything.

Trying to be a a Theurge Gish is basically like trying to say you want to literally be everything. You'll probably get pretty close if you just Theurge it up and then trying to Polymorph yourself into something to hit things, though your HP and BaB will be pretty garbage.

[PlusSixPelican]

Yeah, it's looking abysmal conceptually.

In good news, I *did* figure out that something like this works a la Gestalt. (There's probably much better things to do, but still.)

Looks like,


Arcane Side: Sorc(Draconic)10/Dragon Disciple X
Divine Side: Pal3/Oracle7/HellKnight Enforcer X

8th level Arcane/Divine casting, Cha synergy. The BAB is potent enough from the divine side, maybe not for full BAB, but def 3/4ths, and Divine Grace boosts any save weakness.

I would probably spice it up with Tattoed Sorcerer, being Linnorm (aka Wildblooded Draconic) instead of Draconic, since it would still work with Dragon Disciple, as well as some Paladin/Oracle archetypes. Oracle mystery would probably be Heavens.

One wonders why Mystic Theurge has to disappoint.

[Vastly]

Closest thing to a functional Theurge Gish in PF I could think of would be to make an oracle, maybe with a PrC that has a full attack bonus and caster progression, probably Holy Vindicator. Be a half-elf and take the spell Paragon Surge (3rd lvl spell), the feats Skill Focus (Any Knowledge), and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane). Congratulations you can now cast any spell from the Cleric/Oracle and Wizard/Sorcerer lists, albeit at the cost of a single round and a 3rd lvl spell slot.

Basically here's how it works:

Cast Paragon Surge

As your bonus feat from the spell take Expanded Arcana and pick any divine spell off the list the Cleric/Oracle list. You now know that spell for the duration of the spell.
At character level 11, you now qualify to take Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane). The 9th level power lets you do the same as expanded arcana but you instead pick from the Wizard/Sorcerer list.


You have to burn a 3rd lvl spell slot, and you only retain the use of the spell for the duration of Paragon Surge, but that's long enough for most situations. You also don't get access to the arcane side of things until your 11th character level.

As a side note due to cheese, many GM's will not like this, and my even ban it (I know some people on these forums have banned the spell all together from their games). That said, I'd talk to your GM about it before you pursue this path, you could even talk to them about you're actual theurge-gish build and see if they'll house rule it. It'd be careful with this type of build path though, trying to be everything generally only leads to frustrated/upset GM's and party members as you steal the spot light continuously.

[PlusSixPelican]

As a side note due to cheese, many GM's will not like this, and my even ban it (I know some people on these forums have banned the spell all together from their games). That said, I'd talk to your GM about it before you pursue this path, you could even talk to them about you're actual theurge-gish build and see if they'll house rule it. It'd be careful with this type of build path though, trying to be everything generally only leads to frustrated/upset GM's and party members as you steal the spot light continuously.

Eww Paragon Surge. It's way, WAY more powerful than intended, and so prone to abuse that it probably never goes unabused in use.

I could imagine the 'more potent Jack-of-All' being the problem if you were doing a lot of spotlight stealing. If ya played it more like doing backup duty/fill in the blank, it might not be a problem. It wouldn't be BETTER than anyone at anything, but it would be a solid second place/backup instead of the third-placey feel you get from normal Jack-of-All classes.

[Deepbluediver]

Here's a concept I've always wanted to try, but never found a game to make it work in: Bard/Paladin into Mystic Theurge.

The plan was to start out with mostly Paladin, then add some Bard and eventually MT, moving from a heavy-combat role to support as magic overtakes melee at higher levels.

If you are allowed to use Versatile Spellcaster (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/) in a Pathfinder game, it seems like you could qualify for MT with just 4 levels of Paladin, and 1 of Bard (assuming you have at least a moderate Charisma score to get bonus spells).

Is it an optimized build? Probably not, but I don't think it's any more MAD than a straight paladin. Also, I'm sure some one will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in PF you can alternate paladin levels with MT whenever you feel your HP and BAB are falling behind.

[Vastly]

Eww Paragon Surge. It's way, WAY more powerful than intended, and so prone to abuse that it probably never goes unabused in use.

Yea, it's only drawback is that the target is half-elf only, so its cheese is limited to one race. I actually have it on an oracle of my own, who happened to be half-elf before I knew of the spell. I've it used to get spell focus, greater spell penetration and one time skill focus (disable device) to make sure I disabled a very deadly trap (I have the seeker archetype). I'll admit I have also used it to get a spell in a pinch (don't judge me too harshly!), specifically Remove Fear in a fight against a dragon and Dismissal against some outsiders and summons in a particularly deadly fight. I'm not setup for the eldritch heritage cheese, as tempting as it is :smallwink: