How to handle absent abilities in M&M 3E?

[Flint_A]

I'm trying to make a ghost character who simply has no physical form. The ghost part isn't too difficult. Insubstantial 4, Flight 1, Immunity(Life Support, Aging, Sleep), Concealment(Olfactory), Immortality 1. All permanent and innate.

The thing is, I tried making it so the character had NO Strength, Stamina, Dexterity or Fighting. It still needs Agility, obviously, as it can still move. It also has the three mental stats. But no Strength and no Stamina at least seem like no-brainers, it isn't alive and can not apply physical force to anything.

The other two are slightly problematic. The book says: "Fighting: A creature with no Fighting is incapable of making any sort of close attack (but may still be able to launch ranged attacks, if it has Dexterity)." but for Dexterity it says "Dexterity: A creature with no Dexterity cannot manipulate objects and hence cannot make physical attacks."

Well, the character isn't making physical attacks. But what about a ranged effect that isn't physical? Maybe an affliction? Obviously it needs "Affects Corporeal", but otherwise since the character can think(mental stats) and move(Agility) how can it not target something? The text for Absent Fighting implies that you can't make ranged attacks if you don't have Dexterity, but the text for Absent Dexterity doesn't say precisely that.

If no Fighting really means NO close attacks, even stuff like Weaken, and no Dexterity means NO ranged, then would this ghost character only be able to use Perception effects?(That is always available, as you'd need to lack Awareness to be unable to perceive, and then you're not even considered a creature.) Or should non-physical effects with the affects corporeal extra still be usable?

If it means anything, here is how HeroLab treats absent abilities:

Any skills based on an absent ability is grayed out and given "-".

Absent Stamina gives "None" Fortitude, but +0 Toughness.
Absent Agility gives "None" Dodge.
Absent Fighting gives "None" Parry.
Absent Intellect or Presence gives "None" Will.
Absent Awareness gives "None" Dodge, Parry and Will.

Absent Agility gives +0 Initiative, not -5 or "None" or "-".

Absent Dexterity gives +0 Throw and Absent Fighting gives +0 Grab and Unarmed, rather than -5 or "None" or "-".

I don't consider HeroLab "proof" that you can still make attacks, as HeroLab does have a few(very few) errors compared to the book as far as I can tell. The coders simply might not have considered that anyone would make a character without Fighting or Dexterity. However, it does raise reasonable doubt for me, and frankly I don't see why a ghost spellcaster wouldn't be able to use non-physical ranged effects. Even by RAW it isn't spelled out. Don't say that you'd need to "point" at the target, you can certainly have a Subtle 2 ranged effect.

That said, getting the 20 points from there to spend elsewhere while still getting a +0 may be a little imbalanced. You do lose some stuff, but I don't know...

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think "physical" attacks would refer to fists, guns, and so on. For ranged attacks, I imagine it would depend on the descriptor-- you certainly couldn't pick up a car and throw it, but heat vision might be plausible.


But in any case, making a PC with absent abilities is often kind of awkward. There's usually a better, more standard way to do it. Insubstantial 4 should cover your inability to affect the physical world without having to wrestle with absent abilities. Take Immunity: Biological Effects, and anything else you think a ghost ought to be immune to.

[Flickerdart]

Why do you need to not have Dexterity on a ghost? Ghosts love to throw objects, and they need Dexterity to aim them.

[Flint_A]

While I do have a Move Object power, it is pretty low level and it is unable to do damage. So I do not throw stuff around, I just use it so I can use computers and read books and stuff.

I don't need to not have Dexterity. I need to have no Stamina and no Strength, those are definite.(Undead and incorporeal.) I don't need to not have Fighting and Dexterity, but I don't need to have them either.

No Stamina already technically gives immunity to biological effects, actually most Fort effects, although if anything requires a Fort resistance and it affects objects then I suffer the full effect with no save. I can live with that.(Before you say it's still a good trade-off, no Stamina means I can't use extra effort of any kind ever. Yeah.) I don't want to be invincible, there is already one guy on the team who does that. It's like he's Superman and I'm Martian Manhunter; yeah I'm technically more powerful and a lot more versatile, but you can defeat me with a torch(i.e: anything with Nullify: Magic) and he is almost impossible to do anything to.(We have a naive GM.)

The character isn't like the Gentleman Ghost who's basically "here", it's literally a manifestation of willpower. The guy was trapped and did a ritual to leave his body, which later died.(That was around 200 years ago.) So it's like a permanent astral projection with nowhere to return to. That's why I want it to have no physical stats, it isn't technically physically present, it just exists through sheer stubbornness.(Except it has to have Agility, as it can obviously move.)

I'm just asking for a ruling here, because strictly by RAW I don't necessarily see that I'd be limited to Perception. But if I am, I could live with that. It actually sounds like a nice concept.(Plus I have a lot of senses in an array.) Frankly I just wanted to get Ranged effects so I could use the trade-off feats. The character's strong enough, I'd rather sacrifice some power than back down on my concept.

But if you can move, you can perceive, and you have acute and accurate senses, and you aren't literally aiming a physical gun(as in you don't need hand-eye coordination)...I just don't see why no Dexterity would mean no Ranged attacks. And the RAW does not technically say it.(No Fighting=no close effects of any kind whatsoever isn't entirely logical either, but the RAW DOES say that, and I will not fight it. Didn't really want close effects.)

[The Rose Dragon]

First, this properly belongs in the Other Systems subforum. You can report the first post and ask it to be moved.

Second, no Fortitude emphatically doesn't mean you are automatically immune to anything that requires Fortitude saves, unless you buy 30 ranks of Fortitude. At that point, you are still not immune to anything that affects objects and has the right descriptors.

Third, no Dexterity means you can't use any skill based on Dexterity, including Ranged Combat. Part of Dexterity is properly aiming the effect, even if you are not manipulating anything physical (hand eye coordination). Just because you can move in any gross capacity (Agility) doesn't mean you are capable of the finer movements involved in landing your shot. If you don't have to aim your attacks in any fashion, you are probably looking at a Perception-range effect (something that is successful no matter what your skill at attacking).

[Flint_A]

1) Sorry, I will do so.

2) It does, actually. The "Affects Objects" extra says: "This modifier allows effects normally resisted by Fortitude to work on non-living objects (those with no Stamina)." implying that Fortitude effects do not normally work on non-living objects.

This is very similar to the situation in the Mental Powers profile which clearly says "A being lacking a mind is immune to mental powers at no cost." where "lacking a mind" means lacking Intellect and/or Awareness(Lacking Perception also gives you a "null" Will defense, but it does not make you immune to mental powers, you just suffer the full effect) and mental powers include anything resisted by Will(or mental sensory effects).

3) Hm, I suppose you are right. The book DOES say "Rather than having a rank of –5 in a given ability, some things or creatures actually lack an ability altogether. These beings automatically fail any check requiring the absent ability." so unless there is a way to make a ranged attack check without using Dexterity, which I highly doubt, it certainly does work that way.

[The Rose Dragon]

2) It does, actually. The "Affects Objects" extra says: "This modifier allows effects normally resisted by Fortitude to work on non-living objects (those with no Stamina)." implying that Fortitude effects do not normally work on non-living objects.

Read the Absent Abilities part instead, where it says that creatures lacking Stamina are often, but not necessarily, immune to many things that affect living beings, and refers to the Immunity power. Affects Objects only allows effects normally requiring Fortitude saves, such as Weaken, to work on objects and creatures with no Stamina.

[Flint_A]

That's what I'm saying. Effects like Weaken or Affliction that use Fort saves do not work on targets with no Stamina, unless they also Affect Objects, in which case the target suffers the full effect with no save.

Fort save =/= "things that affect living beings"

You could have a magical poison that gives a Will save. Unless it has some sort of Limited to Living flaw, or at least a "biological" descriptor, it would certainly work on a ghost. No Stamina does not give Immunity to Poison. It doesn't even give Life Support.(Although if you don't have Life Support, you may not survive long without a Stamina.)

But a Fort save doesn't work on a ghost, like a Will save doesn't work on a robot. The robot does not need to specifically buy Immunity to Will.(But if someone, for some weird reason, did a Will save that Affects Objects, the robot's screwed.)

Toughness is a special case that actually violates the "you fail all checks requiring an absent ability" rule, as things without Stamina(such as a rock) certainly can make Toughness checks.

[The Rose Dragon]

An effect that requires a Fortitude save does work on ghosts, if the ghost doesn't have Immunity to Fortitude Effects. All that Affects Objects allows is to bypass that Immunity. That's why most archetypes and characters lacking Stamina also have Immunity to Fortitude Effects bought for 30 power points.

M&M is an effects-based game. You get nothing you didn't pay for. You certainly don't get an advantage in exchange for bonus points.

[Flint_A]

Affects Objects most certainly does not penetrate Immunity. You don't pass Immunity with anything other than Nullify. Even if it affects objects it's still a Fort save and you're still immune.

And the text in the Mental Powers profile very clearly says that you DO get something for free, anything with no mind is immune to mental effects AT NO COST.

And it's not like no Stamina is an overall benefit, losing extra effort is still a huge loss.

[Tengu_temp]

The Rose Dragon is right here. If you have no stamina but no immunity to fortitude effects, then fortitude effects either work on you automatically or you have a -5 fortitude saving throw, depending on the ruling.

[Mr.Bookworm]

And the text in the Mental Powers profile very clearly says that you DO get something for free, anything with no mind is immune to mental effects AT NO COST.

Something with no mind is definitionally unplayable. That's a major cost, albeit one not expressed in point value.

I mean, I guess you could play the table at the PC's HQ, but do you really want your most heroic feat to be holding the Crimson Avenger's nachos while he watches TV?

[shadow_archmagi]

If you're insubstantial, you can't touch things, right? So why do you need to have no strength? And you would want to be able to touch other ghosts, right?

[Beleriphon]

If you're insubstantial, you can't touch things, right? So why do you need to have no strength? And you would want to be able to touch other ghosts, right?

Being permanently insubstantial 4 means that you can never apply your strength to anything other than an equally insubstantial opponent. You don't need absent strength at all to make the concept work, as Shadow Archmagi notes.

As for absent stamina by and large you are unaffected by things requiring fortitude resistances, but only because of the way inanimate objects work. The character is functionally an inanimate object at that point. That being said being insubstantial makes you completely unaffectable by most effects, even energy effects, except for that one descriptor that can affect you.

[Flint_A]

You don't need to have no Strength, but having Strength that you can't use is a waste of points. I don't really need to molest other ghosts.

I'll grant you that being mindless IS a great cost in itself, but I'd say not being able to use extra effort isn't something to scoff at either. And while a mindless character is unplayable, a mindless minion or summon(or if you can convince the GM perhaps even a sidekick) is certainly very plausible and not a huge drawback. They are not inherently incapable of following orders as long as you have some way of giving them. That said, I was not implying that being mindless isn't a cost, just that the game does make allowances for drawbacks not covered in actual points. Having no Stamina offers enough drawbacks compared to having -5 Stamina that a sort of pseudo-immunity would not be game-breaking, especially considering it is not difficult to bypass it.

And yes the character is an inanimate object, if you take animate to mean living, but there is still a difference between a golem or zombie and a rock. The rock has no defenses other than Toughness, which still works normally. However, while it automatically suffers the full effect of anything requiring a Dodge or Parry save; it is immune to any effect requiring a Will or Fort save.(Unless the Fort effect affects objects, in which case it has the full effect like Dodge and Parry. I haven't seen anything in the book that can make a Will effect affect a rock, which frankly would be absurd.) This does not mean the rock has purchased immunities. It means it is a rock. The game does sometimes expect the GM to employ common sense.

And while I admit being insubstantial is a huge defense, especially at low PLs, at PL 12 it is certainly plausible for some if not most enemies to have at least one effect that affects insubstantials for a measly 2 points whereas I have to pay a lot more for any of my effects to touch them. I'm not saying it's useless, far from it, I'm just saying it's not really broken compared to all the cheese you can potentially pull from this system. It's quite inconvenient at any rate.(But that doesn't bother me.) And my one descriptor is magic, so the GM can throw whatever the heck he wants at me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You don't need to have no Strength, but having Strength that you can't use is a waste of points. I don't really need to molest other ghosts.
Strength 0 isn't costing you any points. As a DM, I'd frown on a permanently-insubstantial character getting points back for an "absent" strength score you're not able to use for the first place-- it's really a something-for-nothing trade.


And yes the character is an inanimate object, if you take animate to mean living, but there is still a difference between a golem or zombie and a rock.
Correct, although the "official" term here I think is Construct (http://www.d20herosrd.com/7-gadgets-gear/constructs).


And while I admit being insubstantial is a huge defense, especially at low PLs, at PL 12 it is certainly plausible for some if not most enemies to have at least one effect that affects insubstantials for a measly 2 points whereas I have to pay a lot more for any of my effects to touch them. I'm not saying it's useless, far from it, I'm just saying it's not really broken compared to all the cheese you can potentially pull from this system. It's quite inconvenient at any rate.(But that doesn't bother me.) And my one descriptor is magic, so the GM can throw whatever the heck he wants at me.
Yes, two points is quite easy to pay, especially since NPCs don't track power points... but they're not easy to justify. At least not easily enough that they can be thrown out "just because." Permanent insubstantial with affects corporal attacks basically means that your GM has to structure each encounter specifically around you if he wants to challenge you.

[shadow_archmagi]

Hard to justify? M&M is a comic book. Lasers, magic, radiation, energy beams, potatoes... there are tons of attacks that could "plausibly" hurt ghosts, insofar as anything was ever plausible about comic books.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hard to justify? M&M is a comic book. Lasers, magic, radiation, energy beams, potatoes... there are tons of attacks that could "plausibly" hurt ghosts, insofar as anything was ever plausible about comic books.
Insubstantial 4 is immune to energy damage, by default, so it would have to be a special "ghost killer" laser, or "ectoplasmic radiation," or what have you. By "hard to justify," I meant "there's a level of difficulty in explaining why the majority of your enemies have made special preparations to fight ghosts." It's not hard to justify any one case, but the constant stream of them you need for a campaign is an issue.

[shadow_archmagi]

Insubstantial 4 is immune to energy damage, by default, so it would have to be a special "ghost killer" laser, or "ectoplasmic radiation," or what have you. By "hard to justify," I meant "there's a level of difficulty in explaining why the majority of your enemies have made special preparations to fight ghosts." It's not hard to justify any one case, but the constant stream of them you need for a campaign is an issue.

Just write in a mercenary triad of ghosts, such that any organization keeps a few ghost-punchers on hand for scraps with them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just write in a mercenary triad of ghosts, such that any organization keeps a few ghost-punchers on hand for scraps with them.
It's still a difficult balance you need to strike between "unchecked power" and "why are you picking on me?"