P6 vs P8

[JusticeZero]

What are the practical differences in world design between a P6 and P8 setting? Do low CR enemies "go grey" in P8 and become irrelevant? Fourth level level powers don't appear to be quite as problematic as the fourth level spells that nobody in the campaign world has no access to anyways (arcane and divine casting do not exist and I have no plans of introducing it), and i'm not sure that I can bring myself to be upset if the Psychic Warriors and Dreads and Rogues and such get an iterative as well as the fighters.

[Yora]

So you mean Psionics only E6, not Pathfinder E6?

[JusticeZero]

No, it is both. It is Pathfinder-specific 6/8 that happens to only permit Psionics.

[Razanir]

Well first off, can you elaborate more on what P6 and P8 are? Your explanation only left me more confused

[JusticeZero]

P6 (and P8) are E6 (and E8) specifying Pathfinder as core rather than 3.5. That is, at level 6(8) characters stop getting levels a day instead start using the "epic" advancement system of gaining a feat each 5000 XP instead. The setting itself is set up to treat those levels as "really really awesome" to avoid grinding through a long stretch of power inflation, treadmill running, and increasingly surreal power levels from some problematic upper level stuff.

[Coidzor]

Characters are tougher on the higher end by default due to more HD, you can throw in higher level stuff at them. Things that are threats to 1st level characters are less of threats to 8th level characters than 6th level characters, though I don't think there's that much of a difference unless something was grossly under-CR'd.

I believe that full BAB characters no longer have the capstone of getting an iterative attack when no one else but monsters can get those, so some minor boon might be necessary for them. I don't know what powers are kosher for Pathfinder, so I can't tell you what difference those will make, but it seems almost certain that at 8th level psionic characters played intelligently will be ahead of the game and visibly so, though how much so is the real question.

[Razanir]

P6 (and P8) are E6 (and E8) specifying Pathfinder as core rather than 3.5. That is, at level 6(8) characters stop getting levels a day instead start using the "epic" advancement system of gaining a feat each 5000 XP instead. The setting itself is set up to treat those levels as "really really awesome" to avoid grinding through a long stretch of power inflation, treadmill running, and increasingly surreal power levels from some problematic upper level stuff.

Yes, yes, I get that part. You lost me at "that happens to only permit Psionics"

[JusticeZero]

Sure, they are more potent, but are they powerful to the extent that they ignore the goblin attack because they cannot even get anything but RP experience from the fight? Are the 4th level powers loaded with game breaking stuff that i'm not noticing? (we actually don't have a psion at this point anyways since people like melee..)

[JusticeZero]

Yes, yes, I get that part. You lost me at "that happens to only permit Psionics"
Why so? I'm tired of Vancian and felt like a change of pace and flavor. It's working great so far. Treasure is a mild headache of checking for effect duplication and item invention is all.

[CTrees]

Ending at level eight does seem to make a lot of sense in PF, given that it's a standard "you get cool stuff" level." That's said, lets look at what those two extra levels give classes. I'll be omitting "more rounds per day of ___," "more spells of levels they already had access to," "higher bardic knowledge bonuses," and similar.

All: higher BAB, saves, skills, and HD, an extra feat, and +1 to a stat
Alchemist: Another discovery, higher poison resistance, stronger bombs, 3rd level extracts
Barbarian: DR1/- and an extra rage power
Bard: 3rd level spells, better Inspire Competence, Dirge of Doom
Cavalier: One more challenge per day, eighth level order ability, higher level mounts (large is easier on more mount types)
Cleric: 4th level spells, 8th level domain powers and spells, stronger channel energy
Druid: 4th level spells, either 8th level domain powers and spells or higher level animal companions (plenty of which advance at 7th level), better wildshape more times per day
Fighter: -1 armor check penalty, +1 max dex bonus to AC, bonus feat
Gunslinger: A deed and a bonus feat
Inquisitor: Judgement 3/day, second judgement, 3rd level spells, eighth level domain power and spell
Magus: 3rd level spells, medium armor, knowledge pool, improved spell combat
Monk: +1AC, higher base damage, better slow fall, better ki uses, wholeness of body, extra attack on FoB
Oracle: 4th level spells, revelation, mystery spell
Paladin: 2nd level spells, smite evil 3/day, Aura of Resolve
Ranger: 2nd level spells, improved animal companion (some advance at 4th level), woodland stride, 2nd favored terrain, swift tracker
Rogue: Better sneak attack, a rogue talent, improved uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: 4th level spells, 8th level bloodline spell, bloodline feat
Summoner: 3rd level spells, Transposition, Summon Monster 4 SLA, improved eidolon (some important evolutions at 8th, including large)
Witch: 4th level spells, hex, patron spell, improved familiar
Wizard: 4th level spells, school power, possible improved familiar

In addition, Alchemists, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors, Maguses, Monks, Oracles, Rogues, and Summoners all gain their first iterative attack.

I've probably missed some things, and I've intentionally not gone into archetypes, multiclass comboes, or prestige classes (all complicated to the point of being beyond the scope of this brief post).

I dunno. It just seems that the mundanes either don't gain much or gain flavor (yay, swift tracking!). +2 to hit is far less exciting than gaining your first iterative attack. Comparatively, a lot of the casters gain quite a lot (4ths are huge, and the added toys from Pathfinder?). Personally, looking at that list, I'd continue capping it at level six, possibly adding some of the toys back in as feats. Pathfinder psionics follow much the same pattern, though with a lack of the barbarian/fighter/rogue type of mundanes.

[twas_Brillig]

One big change might be the availability of prestige classes. In E6 there are only a handful of prestige classes that you can dip as a capstone (some of them are cool). I don't know how different that is in Pathfinder, but two more levels means could mean more levels of early classes, or more dips in later classes.

I don't know what the balance is like for pathfinder prestige classes, though. This could be meaningless or cool or broken (but fixable by nixing broken classes).

EDIT: If your players use archetypes you're going to see some change in balance there. Again, may not be significant and may be positive, but some archetypes make some abilities weaker to make others more powerful.

[JusticeZero]

There are also the things like rage powers with a level 8 prerequisite and such. And yes we use AT. Paladin, Bard, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Ranger, Cleric, Magus, Witch, Oracle, Summoner, and Inquisitor are off the table anyways for obvious reasons, I took the Alchemist off for flavor mismatch, and Cavalier is out because most of the terrain is not amenable to mounted combat. So mostly it seems to end up including a question of how much it matters if mid BAB classes get an iterative.

[Razanir]

Paladin, Bard, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Ranger, Cleric, Magus, Witch, Oracle, Summoner, and Inquisitor are off the table anyways for obvious reasons

This is what I was looking for. I was just a bit confused at the concept of removing all casters in favor of JUST using psionics.

That confusion aside, I wouldn't think there's much difference between P6 and P8.

[Coidzor]

Sure, they are more potent, but are they powerful to the extent that they ignore the goblin attack because they cannot even get anything but RP experience from the fight? Are the 4th level powers loaded with game breaking stuff that i'm not noticing? (we actually don't have a psion at this point anyways since people like melee..)

I don't recall the section on PF's encounters and XP awards, but they'll get piddly XP rather than no XP according to this encounter calculator (http://webpages.charter.net/tedsarah/Pathfinder/utilities/encounterCalculator.htm) I found for pathfinder.

Though, really, you should know your players well enough to know what narrative hooks will grab them if you're playing in meat space for any real length of time.

It's less that 4th level spells and powers are game breaking and more that they're head and shoulders above mundanes that lead to the E6 cutoff point being where it was. Linear Warrior Vs. Quadratic Wizard sweet spot and all that jazz.

How in the blazes are they surviving without any healing anyway?

[JusticeZero]

Vitalist is a dedicated healing class for psionics, and a psychometabolist can also heal. There are also dorjes of Natural healing and the like.
There is a Vitalist in the party and someone else with UMD and craft skills.

[Psyren]

Do low CR enemies "go grey" in P8 and become irrelevant?

This is an MMO mindset that doesn't quite work in D&D. CR is more about the overall encounter/situation, not just the individual creatures that make it up. For example, you can turn Kobolds or Goblins with NPC class levels into a CR 8 encounter - you just need enough of them, and/or favorable terrain.

Compare to an MMO - once a monster turns "grey", it doesn't matter whether you fight off one or a horde, you get no exp. This is true even if taking on a throng of them actually would be challenging.

[JusticeZero]

Sure. Though in the XP calculator someone linked (that I wasn't aware of before), I see that a party of 6 level 8's do indeed get zero XP for fighting 20 CR 1/2's, so I presume i'd have to manually tweak.

[Coidzor]

Sure. Though in the XP calculator someone linked (that I wasn't aware of before), I see that a party of 6 level 8's do indeed get zero XP for fighting 20 CR 1/2's, so I presume i'd have to manually tweak.

Or... not throw a horde of Cr 1/2s at them, or at least not alone and unsupported.

And they really should have some support or leadership anyway.