SAD, MAD and... NAD?

[Cheiromancer]

Some classes (generally weaker ones) are dependent on multiple ability scores. Monks, Paladins, maybe Rangers. Fighter/spellcasters (Gish) are generally MAD, too. Other classes are dependent on only a single ability score, including the ones at the top of the Tier pyramid: wizards, clerics and druids. They are SAD.

Are there classes that are even less dependent on ability scores than SAD classes? If you had a 'flat' 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 array, it would obviously hose the primary casters. I'd hate to play a 9th level wizard with only a 13 intelligence! Even fighters would have problems: most of their feats would be unavailable for most of the early game. But it seems to me that classes like warlocks, dragonfire adepts and binders would be quite playable from the start, even with a flat array. They'd be weaker, sure, but they wouldn't be crippled. It seems, then, that some classes are dependent on no ability score (NAD).

Is this right? If so, what other classes would shine if characters were limited to a flat array?

(This is a theoretical exercise - as a DM I would never impose such a heavy burden on my players. But I might ask them to try out a campaign with a more flexible 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 array. And NAD classes would fare well here, too, I think).

[eggynack]

I think the general consensus is that NAD classes are the warlock and the druid. The warlock, because you can just generally build it around not having ability scores, and the druid, because the animal companion and wild shape forms have stats that aren't dependent on your base stats.

[13_CBS]

I think the general consensus is that NAD classes are the warlock and the druid. The warlock, because you can just generally build it around not having ability scores, and the druid, because the animal companion and wild shape forms have stats that aren't dependent on your base stats.

I'd like to nominate the Warlock's scaly cousin, the Dragonfire Adept, as well. The only stat that you "need" is Constitution, which even with mediocre stats you can pump through racial bonuses (Dragonborn Mongrelfolk). Even then, as long as you pick the right debuff breath effects and feats (namely, Entangling Breath and Slow Breath), it doesn't matter if the save DC of your breath weapon is low since those debuffs will still happen--only the duration is shortened. As for the rest, pick invocations that don't give saves (the Identify invocation, Chilling Fog, the one that gives you temporary hitpoints, etc.) and you've got a decent enough character.

Edit: Crap, the OP already mentioned Dragonfire Adept. In that case, I second it! Who needs ability scores when you don't even have to roll to attack? :smallbiggrin: (Watch out for creatures with Evasion, though.)

Edit 2: Actually, let's run through the Core classes individually. Assuming no races with stat boosts are used (so let's say, Humans only)...

Fighter: Nope, need at least Str and Con.

Barbarian: Same as Fighter, though if you're fighting mostly enemies with Average stats Rage might give you the edge...

Bard: Well, you could at least use Bardic Music. But with 10 in Cha they won't be able to cast any spells, so unless there's some sort of non-stat dependent trick out there...

Rogue: A Rogue without Dex is a Rogue that's in trouble in combat, though I suppose at the end of the day he'll still have 8 skillpoints per level.

Cleric: Casting class with no major class features outside of its casting. Nope.

Wizard: See Cleric.

Sorcerer: See Cleric.

Druid: As Eggynack said, Druids don't really need stats to be at least decently effective (though not being able to buff themselves does expose them to the one weakness of Wildshape: low AC...at least until barding and Wild armor come online). Others have said that Druids are a Tier 1 class (spellcasting), a Tier 3 class (Wildshape), and a Tier 5 class (Animal Companion) all rolled into one, so even with bad Wis you can't do worse than be a Tier 3.

Monk: MAD. Next!

Paladin: See Monk.

[inuyasha]

this actually is very interesting...and it spawned an idea for a group i want to play

a group of NAD classes whos motto is GO NADS!...sorry someone had to

[Malroth]

DFI optimized bard can be somewhat NAD as long as they have enough int to avoid a skill point penalty and the capability of reaching 16 CHA after gear and level up points.

Edit: 11 starting CHA +1 middle aged +2 Item +4 level up points so will still be able to cast their top lv buffs even if their save DC's are lacking

[eggynack]

I think that most casters are pretty much fine with low stats. I mathed it out once, and I remember a druid with a starting stat allocation of 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 having access to full casting capabilities at all levels except three. You need to allocate all stat boosts to wisdom, and pick up a periapt, but you were probably going to do that anyways. If you start with a twelve, I'm pretty sure that you're always able to cast all of your spells. You lack bonus spells and save DC's, but neither is strictly necessary for awesomeness. Basically, if you take a SAD class and give them nothing, they can spend all of their resources pumping that one stat, and be fine.

[13_CBS]

I think that most casters are pretty much fine with low stats. I mathed it out once, and I remember a druid with a starting stat allocation of 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 having access to full casting capabilities at all levels except three. You need to allocate all stat boosts to wisdom, and pick up a periapt, but you were probably going to do that anyways. If you start with a twelve, I'm pretty sure that you're always able to cast all of your spells. You lack bonus spells and save DC's, but neither is strictly necessary for awesomeness. Basically, if you take a SAD class and give them nothing, they can spend all of their resources pumping that one stat, and be fine.

I was wondering about that, but I figured going with a SAD class and boosting your one stat with items and level ups might have gone against the spirit of the OP. I'm guessing he was more asking for classes that are NAD even if you stick with all 11s and 10s for stats all the way through level 20.

[Malroth]

Wildshape rangers, cancer mages and Warhulks would also be fine in a flat 10s/11s build

[eggynack]

I was wondering about that, but I figured going with a SAD class and boosting your one stat with items and level ups might have gone against the spirit of the OP. I'm guessing he was more asking for classes that are NAD even if you stick with all 11s and 10s for stats all the way through level 20.
Well, druids are still one of the best classes in that case, due to AC's and wild shape. They're running at tier three from level five on, and the lowered stats means that their animal companion will be amazing in comparison to the melee classes. Still, I felt that the continued supremacy of casters was an interesting addition to the conversation, even if it's outside of the spirit of NAD.

[AdamT]

Artificer, I think, should qualify as NAD.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to nominate an odd concept for NAD.

The Chameleon - It's a PRC, but once you get started, it begins to really feel like your class. Start off with ranger, duskblade, or factotum (cunning surge works without int) dipped into spellthief enough for casting in light armor (master spellthief) and for skill prereqs (or not with factotum).

Yes, you depend on stats, but the class itself augments the stats you decide you need.

You could play a chameleon with straight 10s and no stat boosts and still have access to all arcane or divine spells 1-6th through the arcane and divine focus added with the attribute boost class feature. I would pick divine focus personally, as the buffing is great.

Once you got that, pick the martial focus for your second focus, +2 to damage and to hit, and layer on divine power and might for +10 str. Owls insight can be used if you ever want to peg somthing with a save or lose.

It is what I would pick as a party healer and support role for a NAD group with warlock, DFA, and binder.

[13_CBS]

Well, druids are still one of the best classes in that case, due to AC's and wild shape. They're running at tier three from level five on, and the lowered stats means that their animal companion will be amazing in comparison to the melee classes. Still, I felt that the continued supremacy of casters was an interesting addition to the conversation, even if it's outside of the spirit of NAD.

Fair enough. I'll quite agree that even without spellcasting Druids are serviceable until level 5, after which they'll take off:




Druid: As Eggynack said, Druids don't really need stats to be at least decently effective (though not being able to buff themselves does expose them to the one weakness of Wildshape: low AC...at least until barding and Wild armor come online). Others have said that Druids are a Tier 1 class (spellcasting), a Tier 3 class (Wildshape), and a Tier 5 class (Animal Companion) all rolled into one, so even with bad Wis you can't do worse than be a Tier 3.


Hmm...a pity Incarnum needs Con to work, otherwise it'd be awesome. I've also been told that Binders don't need much in the way of stats, but I'm not completely sold on that notion. :smallconfused: What Vestiges are there that let you be effective without attack rolls?

[Vizzerdrix]

Artificer, I think, should qualify as NAD.

I can not agree with this.

[Harrow]

I am going to nominate an odd concept for NAD.

The Chameleon - It's a PRC, but once you get started, it begins to really feel like your class. Start off with ranger, duskblade, or factotum (cunning surge works without int) dipped into spellthief enough for casting in light armor (master spellthief) and for skill prereqs (or not with factotum).

Yes, you depend on stats, but the class itself augments the stats you decide you need.

You could play a chameleon with straight 10s and no stat boosts and still have access to all arcane or divine spells 1-6th through the arcane and divine focus added with the attribute boost class feature. I would pick divine focus personally, as the buffing is great.

Once you got that, pick the martial focus for your second focus, +2 to damage and to hit, and layer on divine power and might for +10 str. Owls insight can be used if you ever want to peg somthing with a save or lose.

It is what I would pick as a party healer and support role for a NAD group with warlock, DFA, and binder.

I personally prefer starting the day with divine focus, blowing all my spells on hour/level buffs, then trading it out for arcane focus for all of the actual adventuring. Best of both worlds!

[Sylthia]

One could build a commoner with just about any stat array.

[prufock]

I actually googled this a few days ago. Here's what I've learned.

Warlock - can get by with all stats below 10, really. Invocations don't care about your stats, as long as you choose those that don't grant a save. You're making touch attacks, so dex is not even that important. You're ranged, and thus staying out of melee much of the time, especially if you pick up Eldritch Spear and Fell Flight, so even a low con doesn't ruin you.

Binder - depends entirely on the vestiges you bind, obviously, but there are plenty that you can choose with very low stats. As long as you don't mind poor pacts, can be played regardless of stats.

Druid - You want a decent Wis for spellcasting, but even if your Wis is low, you still have wild shape (which replaces all your physical stats anyway) and an animal companion, which cares not for your stats. Tack on Master of Many Forms and Warshaper and you've got a solid build.

Wildshape Ranger - see Druid, but with full BAB.

Artificer - especially after level 13, you simply aren't going to fail UMD checks. Just craft whatever you need.

Bard - optimize Inspire Courage and you'll do... okay, I guess. No spells with cha <10, but you have a few decent class features.

A low Con hurts you in pretty much any class, though.

[Vizzerdrix]

Artificer - especially after level 13, you simply aren't going to fail UMD checks. Just craft whatever you need.

After you've gone through over half the class you don't need to depend on stats? Yeeeeah no. Untill you get to that point you're still dependent on stats.

[Morph Bark]

I once was part of a game I had pitched the idea for, where we played little oozes with Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1.

Yes, you read that right.

The party consisted of:
Druid
Warlock
Dragonfire Adept
Binder
Bard

[prufock]

After you've gone through over half the class you don't need to depend on stats? Yeeeeah no. Untill you get to that point you're still dependent on stats.

UMD check to craft items is 20 + item's caster level. Skill Focus and Magical Aptitude (human or strongheart halfling or a flaw) get you +5, and you would be maxing ranks each level in this skill. That's a +9 at level 1 with a 10 charisma. Even with 3 charisma, you have a +5, which is going to increase with levels, while your cha score is not going to decrease. Minimum, you have 25% to succeed a CL 1 item. Not great, but increasing skill checks isn't all that hard.

+2 to UMD for scribing scrolls at level 1.
+2 from a masterwork item.
+2 from Nymph's Kiss when you can get it - take a (second) flaw
+1 and more from an Item Familiar when you can afford it (3rd level or higher)
And so on.

Now even with 3 cha you have +11 at 1st level, which is a 55% chance of success on a CL 1 scroll. Not ideal, but also not bad, and gets better as you level up. And you're crafting your own items to boost that check.

It takes some work, probably more than the others I listed, but it can work. At level 13 you can take a 10, which basically just makes your checks easier, no more % of success, you know whether or no you can succeed.

Granted you spend your days locked away making items (until you get your homunculus to do that for you), but that's kind of what artificer's do anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

Warlock is NAD, they are theoretically playable with straight 3's, and practically playable with straight 8's.

[thorr-kan]

Warlock is NAD, they are theoretically playable with straight 3's, and practically playable with straight 8's.
And with stats like that, now you know why they made a pact with the Forces of Darkness.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yup. Not only does it not require any training time or individual skill, anyone can do it, and it doesn't require any stats to pull off successfully.

Truly, it is the path of least resistance to power. Do a ritual, and power!

[Mr.Bookworm]

I think "dependent" in this context is a bit of a misnomer. Classes don't need those ability scores to be playable, they need them to work to their fullest potential. You could play (with sufficient optimization) a Wizard with an Int of 14, a Fighter with all 10s, and a Rogue with a Dex penalty, but in all of those cases, you'd still be arbitrarily crippling yourself for no real reason.

A Druid is dependent on Wisdom to work to his full power, which includes spellcasting (Warlocks, on the other hand, probably count).

[angry_bear]

It really depends on the type of game being run, and the party they're with, but a rogue in theory, doesn't need more than 10 in each stat. It wouldn't be easy, but it would work... somewhat well? If it's got an ally flanking the enemy, the rogue still gets their sneak attack which is their primary DPS option, and with 8 skill points at each level, it can still be good at what they do outside of combat. Granted what they do outside of combat won't be as much as a typical rogue, but they can still do some of what they were made for.

[Flickerdart]

It really depends on the type of game being run, and the party they're with, but a rogue in theory, doesn't need more than 10 in each stat. It wouldn't be easy, but it would work... somewhat well? If it's got an ally flanking the enemy, the rogue still gets their sneak attack which is their primary DPS option, and with 8 skill points at each level, it can still be good at what they do outside of combat. Granted what they do outside of combat won't be as much as a typical rogue, but they can still do some of what they were made for.
With average BAB and lousy HD, an all 10s Rogue trying to mix it up in melee combat would die horribly.

[angry_bear]

With average BAB and lousy HD, an all 10s Rogue trying to mix it up in melee combat would die horribly.

1 on 1 that's a reasonable bet, but seeing as D&D is a team game it stands to reason they should stand a chance at survival. If your DM is running the enemy (s) with a reasonable level of intelligence, they target out the most obvious threat in front of them. Typically, that'll be the fighter, or if the party is run as a NAD group, the druid's animal companion at later levels. Lower level if the druid made a smart pick like a riding dog for his companion; then the rogue is going to be alright as well.

Classes like the Rogue have always been more group dependent than ability dependent in my opinion. If you put them in a party where their sneak attack can be put to the best use, or allow them an opportunity to be a good skill monkey, they show off what they're capable of.

[Fouredged Sword]

If I did a rogue with all 10's, I would be stealthed at 100ft and snipe targets until I hit 3rd level and got enough wealth for +2dex and +2con.

Ranger could do all 10's ok for a martial character. You get an animal companion to help you out, free archery feats without dex requirements, and enough skills to stealth around and kill things from far away.

I would start with wild cohort as my first level feat. A riding dog or warhorse will eat CR1 encounters easily. At higher levels pick up silvenwood outrider for a single level to get free action commands for your mount and do mounted archery / stealth as needed.

[Flickerdart]

1 on 1 that's a reasonable bet, but seeing as D&D is a team game it stands to reason they should stand a chance at survival. If your DM is running the enemy (s) with a reasonable level of intelligence, they target out the most obvious threat in front of them. Typically, that'll be the fighter, or if the party is run as a NAD group, the druid's animal companion at later levels. Lower level if the druid made a smart pick like a riding dog for his companion; then the rogue is going to be alright as well.

Classes like the Rogue have always been more group dependent than ability dependent in my opinion. If you put them in a party where their sneak attack can be put to the best use, or allow them an opportunity to be a good skill monkey, they show off what they're capable of.
Even animal intelligence creatures will attack the biggest threat, which if you're trying to DPS, is what the rogue is. However, you're not actually going to hit anything, since you only have average BAB, so you're still not really contributing to anything.

[Cheiromancer]

The motivation for the OP was my misreading of the demonologist class in the BoVD. I had read it as a good class for a character with low stats who was greedy for quick power. A wizard with a starting Intelligence of 12, say, recognizing that he was an inferior wizard and making a pact with dark forces. The resulting power-boost, I thought, leads to a dead end; after level 10, what does he take?

Unfortunately I had overlooked that Sacrificial Mastery has a Wis 15 prerequisite. And that the character needs decent Charisma even if he starts as a wizard. So maybe he started as a sorcerer instead? No, because he needs 8 ranks of Kn (the Planes), which is cross class. Maybe splash Bard? Now we are looking at late entry (Sor 6/Bard 1). And why would a character with lots of conjuration spells want to take malign spell focus? I soon realized it was a terrible fit to the concept of a seductive power-boost to a sub-par wizard.

Anyway, all this made me wonder about what classes are good for characters with sub-par statistics. Thus the OP. Next task is to try to homebrew something that fits the original vision; something attractive to a sub-par wizard -NAD and with a quick boost in power - but without much flexibility or logical continuation, and thus an inferior ingredient in a 20th level build. (But maybe good in a campaign that doesn't reach high levels.)

On the other hand, the concept character would probably play a hellfire binderlock, which is flavorful and fun and does lots of damage. Or maybe a Tainted Scholar. So maybe there's no need to homebrew anything.

[angry_bear]

Even animal intelligence creatures will attack the biggest threat, which if you're trying to DPS, is what the rogue is. However, you're not actually going to hit anything, since you only have average BAB, so you're still not really contributing to anything.

Flanking bonus gives the rogue the equivalent BAB of a fighter at the same level. Low level opponents probably won't survive a series of successful strikes from the front line attackers, and later levels the rogue isn't going to be the only one dealing high DPS in melee. Heck, if the druid's smart, at that level he's got his animal companion grappling opponents shutting down any attacks to the party.

[Flickerdart]

Flanking bonus gives the rogue the equivalent BAB of a fighter at the same level.
I'm not sure which rules you're reading, but they're clearly not 3.5's.

[angry_bear]

Fighters have at low levels, a 1 point higher base attack bonus than a rogue of the same level. Level 6+ that base attack bonus gap doesn't go higher than +2. It's not until level 10 that the rogue can't close the BAB gap between the two classes through just flanking. Also an opponent that can't be flanked screws the rogue over quite a bit. However, low to mid level, all an unmodified rogue needs is an ally flanking your typical opponent to be attacking at the same unmodified BAB of a fighter... Looking over what I said earlier, I realize that I forgot to include that in my previous post. My bad.

A definition of tier 4:

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

I underlined the part that's relevant to the rogue.

A rogue with or without high ability modifiers is always going to be a tier 4. A semi capable secondary combatant, and reasonably useful skill monkey. Even without an intelligence modifier it's capable of maxing out 6 skills at level 1, and increasing each of those skills at each subsequent level with some skill points left over, even more if you play a human rogue.

A NAD rogue won't be great in combat, but out of most classes, with the right group; it'll still be semi capable in melee. Granted it'd be safer using ranged combat, but it won't be useless or fodder in melee either. It's skills are really what make it a viable candidate for no ability dependency anyway.

[Flickerdart]

It's not terribly relevant that the rogue is getting a +2 from flanking. The fighter is also getting +2 from flanking. Rogue is still behind.

"Useless in combat and all right at a couple of skills" is not T4, it's T5, because having low skill modifiers isn't special.

Compare to a class that's well and proper NAD. the Warlock can also simply use invocations that don't rely on ability scores, such as Summon Swarm. Binders can bind Arete to make Astral Constructs, or take one of the many utility and no-save abilities offered by vestiges. When using these abilities, they aren't merely better than a commoner - they're actually about as good as if they had normal ability scores.

"Can flank" is not comparable to this at all.

[ericgrau]

If you had a 'flat' 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 array, it would obviously hose the primary casters. I'd hate to play a 9th level wizard with only a 13 intelligence!
+2 int item. Spells without saves. Now it's perfectly playable. Arguably works a hair better on spontaneous casters due to delayed progression on some levels, and spontaneous are delayed anyway. Or heck pick up a +2 mental race too. Not only theoretically good, but practically it works fine all the time. I've gone with all spells without saves before even when I didn't need to. For hp get spells like false life.

I think a front-line druid might have a bit of hp trouble with low stats. Maybe in the back line he could be ok thanks to his d8s, but druids are worse at casting.

[Venger]

totemist also can operate relatively independent of stats. natural attacks have decent damage on their own and essentia can provide damage in absence of a stellar strength score, and almost none of their melds allow saves.

[Flickerdart]

totemist also can operate relatively independent of stats. natural attacks have decent damage on their own and essentia can provide damage in absence of a stellar strength score, and almost none of their melds allow saves.
Isn't there a Constitution-based cap on how many melds you can have at once?

[13_CBS]

totemist also can operate relatively independent of stats. natural attacks have decent damage on their own and essentia can provide damage in absence of a stellar strength score, and almost none of their melds allow saves.

You need con to shape soulmelds, though.

[Jeff the Green]

Isn't there a Constitution-based cap on how many melds you can have at once?

Yes, Constitution score -10.

Starting at a high enough level (probably at least 4), you could do okay starting with 11, adding +1 every fourth level, and prioritizing +Constitution items.

It's still not NAD, though.

[Cheiromancer]

+2 int item. Spells without saves. Now it's perfectly playable. Arguably works a hair better on spontaneous casters due to delayed progression on some levels, and spontaneous are delayed anyway. Or heck pick up a +2 mental race too. Not only theoretically good, but practically it works fine all the time. I've gone with all spells without saves before even when I didn't need to. For hp get spells like false life.

I think a front-line druid might have a bit of hp trouble with low stats. Maybe in the back line he could be ok thanks to his d8s, but druids are worse at casting.

I thought items didn't help you with spell slots. Maybe I've been house-ruling it? Anyway, the flat scores are just to help discern how dependent classes are on ability scores in order to function. If I used a 15 PB, I would expect to see something more like 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. In which case any SAD class could improve their key stat every four levels and manage fine.

[eggynack]

I thought items didn't help you with spell slots. Maybe I've been house-ruling it? Anyway, the flat scores are just to help discern how dependent classes are on ability scores in order to function. If I used a 15 PB, I would expect to see something more like 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. In which case any SAD class could improve their key stat every four levels and manage fine.
I think that they do help you with slots, and they definitely let you cast the higher level spells, which is the most important thing. Casters can actually manage fine from your OP's starting stats. They can't cast second level spells at 3rd level, but outside of that they can hit every single spell level on time through a combination of level based stat boosts and items.

I can do a quick run through. You start at 11, so you can cast first level spells. At level four, you boost int, and get second level spells, which actually keeps you on par with a sorcerer if you think about it. At level five, you need 13 intelligence. Fortunately, a +2 headband only costs 4000 GP, compared to your 9000 GP wealth by level. If there's an issue somewhere, you can just pick up craft wondrous. You have 14 int now, which carries you all the way to level 9, but you have another int boost at 8. Thus, the next problem comes at level 11, and it's pretty trivial to spend 16,000 out of your 64,000 GP to boost to 17 intelligence. You go to 18 intelligence at level 12, and 19 intelligence at level 16, so you're done. Your only speed bump is at level three, but it's not the biggest loss in the world. A starting intelligence of one higher gets perfect casting stats, and a racial bonus obviously gets you there. Thus, our noble caster is fine.

[TuggyNE]

I thought items didn't help you with spell slots.

It's only the stat-boosting spells that mention they don't give bonus spell slots. The items make no such exception. :smallcool:

[Chronos]

Of course, being Con-SAD like totemists (or dragonfire adepts, for that matter) is for practical purposes pretty close to being NAD, since everyone's Con-dependent to some extent (well, unless you're using Faerie Mysteries Initiate or Unholy Toughness or something to replace it).

[Jeff the Green]

Of course, being Con-SAD like totemists (or dragonfire adepts, for that matter) is for practical purposes pretty close to being NAD, since everyone's Con-dependent to some extent (well, unless you're using Faerie Mysteries Initiate or Unholy Toughness or something to replace it).

Not really. As long as you have some kind of defensive ability (a sparrow hengeyokai's flight, a pixie's flight and invisibility, etc.), you can get away with a 10 in Constitution as a warlock or dragonfire adept.

[Tvtyrant]

Jermlaine Druid would work pretty well (as noted in the other thread.)

[Chronos]

Well, yeah, some classes can get away with a low Con, but they'd still really prefer to have more. For comparison, we've shown in this thread that a wizard can get away with a starting Int of 11, but we still call a wizard Int-dependent.

[eggynack]

Well, yeah, some classes can get away with a low Con, but they'd still really prefer to have more. For comparison, we've shown in this thread that a wizard can get away with a starting Int of 11, but we still call a wizard Int-dependent.
I suppose they are. If the challenge is a character that never needs any stat above a three, then I default to my initial answer of "druid". They get two separate abilities that effectively function as stat overhauls. However, if the challenge is to create a character that can work off of those starting stats, a wizard definitely works. Even with a low intelligence, it might be worthwhile to make up for the wizard's low AC and HP with abrupt jaunt. You get it at least once a day, and it scales up as you level. With enough defenses of that kind, you can declare a relative independence from constitution.

[Dimers]

How about Crusaders?

[Flickerdart]

How about Crusaders?
Crusaders need Strength to hit stuff, Constitution to survive in melee, and Charisma keys into a whole ton of their class features. Everything they do requires one or more of these stats.

[Amnestic]

Not really. As long as you have some kind of defensive ability (a sparrow hengeyokai's flight, a pixie's flight and invisibility, etc.), you can get away with a 10 in Constitution as a warlock or dragonfire adept.

Hengeyokai replace all your physical stats in animal form - including Con - so you could make do with less than a 10 in Constitution in that case :smalltongue:

[Grayson01]

[QUOTE=13_CBS;15421679] As for the rest, pick invocations that don't give saves (the Identify invocation, Chilling Fog, the one that gives you temporary hitpoints, etc.) and you've got a decent enough character.

It's been A little bit since I have looked at the Warlock but I am 95% sure you still need at least a CHA # to the effective spell level of the invocation in order to cast it. I have to check when I get off work. But still you could probbaly get buy with just Eldric Blast, and only taking least Invocations in a low ABlility Score game.

[Shalist]

I'd hate to play a 9th level wizard with only a 13 intelligence! Even fighters would have problems: most of their feats would be unavailable for most of the early game.

Level 9 with 13 intelligence, so I assume that +stat items are out then? If not, this (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) may help with getting those stat-dependent feats in a timely manner:
Q) A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item?

A) Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item.

[eggynack]

Level 9 with 13 intelligence, so I assume that +stat items are out then?
Quite so. Level nine, being a level that is not three, is a level where you have access to your highest level slots. Actually, come to think of it, sorcerers get second level slots at level four. That means that they have access to their highest level slots at every level. That's kinda fancy. Of course, you lose the only gap level for the wizard if you just take a +intelligence race, like fire elves. That bypasses the issue rather neatly.

[Venger]

[QUOTE=13_CBS;15421679] As for the rest, pick invocations that don't give saves (the Identify invocation, Chilling Fog, the one that gives you temporary hitpoints, etc.) and you've got a decent enough character.

It's been A little bit since I have looked at the Warlock but I am 95% sure you still need at least a CHA # to the effective spell level of the invocation in order to cast it. I have to check when I get off work. But still you could probbaly get buy with just Eldric Blast, and only taking least Invocations in a low ABlility Score game.

you are incorrect. there are no requirements for cha to take invocations, and if you take ones without saves, it's feasible to dump cha entirely

[Cheiromancer]

Level 9 with 13 intelligence, so I assume that +stat items are out then? If not, this (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) may help with getting those stat-dependent feats in a timely manner:

I had not known that +stat items helped you cast your higher level spells. I was thinking you only had your boosts at level/4. Even so, the need to pump a single stat is a sign of SADness. What this shows is that a wizard is viable even with low starting stats, not that it is not SAD.

[Jeff the Green]

I had not known that +stat items helped you cast your higher level spells. I was thinking you only had your boosts at level/4. Even so, the need to pump a single stat is a sign of SADness. What this shows is that a wizard is viable even with low starting stats, not that it is not SAD.

You know, I could have sworn someone said something like this earlier.

Ah, here it is:

Starting at a high enough level (probably at least 4), you could do okay starting with 11, adding +1 every fourth level, and prioritizing +[Intelligence] items.

It's still not NAD, though.

[Cheiromancer]

You know, I could have sworn someone said something like this earlier.

It was in the original post, too. But the question seemed to have drifted to whether a low starting stat wizard was playable (it is!), which was complicated by my ignorance about the effect of +stat items. So I wanted to acknowledge that.

BTW, thank you for the remarks about how flight helps a Con 10 warlock and dragonfire adept. They are hindered by low stats much less than many other classes would be. Likewise your comment about the Con-dependence of melds, which shows their SADness.

One other thing I've noticed about some of the SAD classes is just how much they vary with high ability scores. Like the Marshal's Motivate Charisma ability, as applied to diplomacy (in a diplomancer, say). A Cha 20 Marshal provides five times the motivation as a Cha 13 Marshal. In contrast, Beguiling Influence (from a warlock or DFA) is a flat +6. Of course, Marshal has fixed bonuses too - the major auras.

It might be an instructive exercise to compare SAD classes in terms of their SADness. It is also a thing to keep in mind if you are designing a class.