Wizard Weaknesses and party make up

[Shoelessme]

Before I start my statement/question im going to post alot of the rules for the rest requirements for wizards. If you know them just skip down to the comment.

That is in order to gain back your spells for the day you must have 8 hours uninterrupted sleep followed by an hour of studying (Some feats shorten this I think, can't remember witch).
If you get attacked in the middle of the spell preparation you don't get spells till you can redo it, although you can give some partial spells if you feel kind as a DM, minimum of 15 min I think. If you are attacked in the night and you do anything strenuous you have interrupted your sleep and add an hour for each occurrence to your sleep requirements.

Preparation Environment from SRD

To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying. Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them by. There is one major exception: A wizard can prepare a read magic spell even without a spellbook.


Can't prepare spells used at night Forgotten Realms help

http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/arcane.shtml
Interuptions:
If the wizard's rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and the wizard must have at least a hour of rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elven wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies (so they could trance for 4 hours and rest for 4 hours and then prepare spells).
...
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit. If Mialee can normally cast two 1st-level spells a day, but she had to cast magic missile during the night, she can only prepare one 1st-level spell the next day.

I have read the second one in the PHB i think but I can't remember the page off the top of my head.

ACTUAL IMPORTANT BIT:
Sorry to throw all the rules that you probably already know at you but I wanted to get the stuff for my question out in the open.
I see these requirements as a curb on casters. You NEED the typical Big Stupid Fighters around to deal with the small pesky night attacks, and occasionally the simple spoiling attacks by low level minions so you don't waste spell slots. Also the occasional loud noise checking and standing watch, watches are interruptions to your sleep and require an extra hour of sleep. Yes you can prepare one of the hut spells but those also have their own risk. A DM I had before this had a rogue trapmaker we had offended booby-trap the hell out of the area around the hut.

Yes a wizard can be absolutely amazing at high levels. I just don't see that even at those high levels they don't need the meat-shields around for lots of things. It is a party based game. I don't see where all the anger comes from aimed at the "OP" casters.
Please don't respond with lists of how much better casters are then melee. Or the opposite either. Just your opinion of party makeup and if you use or don't use these rules in your games.

PS.
Also bar fights are an excellent way to humiliate a snoody wizard in your game. Grapple + nonlethal requirements can be awkward. Not unbeatable just kinda funny. Assassins in a crowded bar also work. The previous DM I mentioned basically emptied a small bucket of minatures to crowd the bar and we had no idea at first which of them were the assassins and witch were innocent customers pulling out weapons to defend themselves.

[ArcturusV]

Mostly it is a problem with say, the second level spell "Rope Trick" which would give a caster a place that is invisible, out of reach from the ground, with no way up into it, to hide out, rest, and prep spells as needed. It's pretty handy.

Yeah, there's a point at level 1-5 or so that you're going to need a mundane "Guard". But only if your DM is really out to get you. You'd have to be launching attacks around the clock at them. Anytime they get 8 hours where you're not messing with them (Riding a horse? Riding in a wagon, eating dinner, etc. Those all could count as "rest", it doesn't require sleep specifically).

The problem with this comes though, you're not making mundanes valuable, or limiting casters. You're mostly just pissing off the party. A party, unless forced by DM fiat desires, isn't going to want to go into danger with half it's party unarmed. So no matter how many night ambushes, etc, you send at them, they'll just park and rest until you let them study up again. All you're doing is giving them free XP from random encounters.

And once your spellcasters REALIZE you're doing that, they just ask for shorter days from the party. So that they still have half their spells memorized, and ready to use for the Night Attacks, etc. If you don't night attack them? Well then they'll just memorize new spells over them. If you do? Well, they'll burn half their spells in the random encounter, and rest up to memorize the other half. Then tell the party "Hey... wait up, I'm only half loaded".

I just REALLY don't suggest the Night Ambush patterns. It just slows down your plot. That's ALL you really accomplish by doing that. Maybe once, or twice, in a long campaign. But don't depend on it.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that most folks use the rules in their games. It just doesn't seem that important. You mentioned hut spells, and trapping the area around them, but rope trick lasts long enough, and leaves you largely invisible. I just don't see what a fighter is providing to your party. Standing around at night doesn't seem like a way to engage the fighter in a game, and it's not a role that he fills uniquely, or very well. It seems like a druid, with spot on their skill list, an animal companion that likely has scent, and the ability to actually threaten attackers, is far superior in this role.

I don't see why you'd ever need a fighter to handle these issues. They're nice to have, but they're non-essential, and not particularly good at the jobs you have listed. Wizards don't really need a meat shield around for the most part, because it's a meaningless role in this game. Fighters have almost no way to dissuade an enemy from attacking a wizard, and their defenses tend to be lower than that of a wizard at high levels. Compare high AC to something like mirror image, flight, or abrupt jaunt, and you see the fighter's insufficiency in this role for what it is. Also, nothing you've listed stops druids, so there's that. Druids pretty much always win these arguments. This is because they win at everything, and arguments about game balance are a subset of everything.

Edit: Also, on grappling, I don't know if everyone does this, but I have an absurd love affair with heart of water. It's like a lower level freedom of movement +, and freedom of movement was great to begin with. First of all, I think the duration is better. In my view, you're more likely to face one grappler in hours/level than multiple grapplers in ten minutes/level. I like all day buffs in general, and having to plan out the castings of buffs with odd durations is not my idea of fun. After that, it's all upside. You get swim speed, underwater breathing, a bonus to escape artist checks, and the potential to have some resistance to sneak attacks. None of these abilities are super attractive on their own, but when taken in combination with each other, and with the freedom of movement, it's amazing. So yeah, grapplers aren't that big a deal for wizards at a certain point.

[TuggyNE]

Wizards are week to Monkdays and Rouges.

More seriously, I'm not sure what sort of answers you expect from a topic that says "Wizards have problems coping"; if people have experienced cases where Wizards did not have problems coping with the challenges you listed, why are you trying to preemptively shut their responses down?

[ArcturusV]

Pretty much. I know there's a natural mindset that DnD History, and Videogames forces upon us of "Okay... we need a Fighter... and we need a healer... and we need someone to rain down fire... and we need someone to disable... and we need someone to handle out of combat obstacles."

But it's not really a valid assumption. At the very least the "Fighter's" role in that scenario is done better by a Scout, or a Rogue. Or saving up one spell for Alarm and a couple of guard dogs. Actually probably wouldn't even need the Alarm but it's a good guarantee in case the wind is against you.

And when I can replace a valued Teammate at low levels with 4 sp a day on a Mercenary Scout, or 50 gp for Guard Dogs (heck, I'm a wizard, I don't got much else to spend my GP on at first level, it's definitely in the realm of affordable), it's not exactly the magic bullet you were looking for.

[Arcanist]

Wizards are week to Monkdays and Rouges.

More seriously, I'm not sure what sort of answers you expect from a topic that says "Wizards have problems coping"; if people have experienced cases where Wizards did not have problems coping with the challenges you listed, why are you trying to preemptively shut their responses down?

The only problem I have is in Epic level when the Fighter is easily destroying my Epic Spellcasting Wizard with his Overwhelming and Devastating Critical feats and don't get me started on his Spellcasting Harrier feat!

In all seriousness though, one of the greatest strengths of being a Wizard or any spellcaster is that you can compensate for your weaknesses using your spellcasting. Low AC? Displacement, Blur, Blink, etc. Need to get over that ravine? Jump, Fly, Dimension Door, etc. Need a good meat shield? Summon one, or two or three.

This is really just to name a few.

Funny story (at least it is funny to me)
I remember one time getting into an argument with a guy about the Fighter's utility Vs the Wizard's utility (Oh trust me, it was a REAL intellectual conversation.) Eventually he just rage quit when he decided to throw an unprepared 7th level Wizard into a den of Vampires and say that the Fighter would die, but he would take a few with him.

I responded by telling him about Uncanny Forethought. Casted Celestial Brilliance on my torch as a Full-round action , dropped it as a free action, casted Celerity for another standard action and casted Extended Rope Trick to prepare spells for the new adventure at hand (getting into the rope trick is a none action) and proceeded to talk to him about how the Wizard would then make his quest to resurrect his Fighter friend who was foolish enough to take on a pack of Vampires unprepared... Needless to say he never talked to me after that... :smallfrown:

[Shoelessme]

First about rope trick. What high level character doesn't use a bag of holding?

Rope Trick

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

The note at the bottom provides a problem I think.
Rope trick + bag of holding = expelled into the astral plane last time I checked. I could be wrong here but I thought that was how it worked.

Second I am not out to get them. I just roll on the Dungeon master guide tables for random encounters. This happens at night fairly frequently. Not every night, no, but its not that unusual.

As for sleeping in the wagon. I'm not sure that works. You have to sleep at least 1 hour directly before preparing spells for the day. Not just rest but sleep. Even the elves have to sleep/trance for 4 hours. Then again im not sure it doesn't work either. Regardless if you get ambushed on the road you are going to loose a round or two waking up, standing up and getting into the fight.

At tuggyne
"
More seriously, I'm not sure what sort of answers you expect from a topic that says "Wizards have problems coping"; if people have experienced cases where Wizards did not have problems coping with the challenges you listed, why are you trying to preemptively shut their responses down?
"
I'm not trying to shut down responses. I just don't want to retread the ground where people yell about how OP a particular class is. If you want to describe scenarios you use to keep all the party engaged that would be very helpful. For instance some people use wild magic zones. Or stealthy ambushes or what not. How do you as a DM make sure that the non-caster characters feel that they are equally important.

Also I usually DM games from lvl 1 up to lvl 12-15. It changes things dramatically when certain character types are more powerful in certain level ranges and even more when they have to build with an eye to being useful at every level not just how to fix in feats to make them epic at high levels.

[Shoelessme]

(getting into the rope trick is a none action)

Don't you have to climb a rope? IE a climb skill check which is a standard action?

[Komatik]

You couls also adventure with the aforementioned Druid instead of a fighter or somesuch. Divine casters don't need a night's sleep to prepare their spells, you can perfectly well prepare yours while the Druid guards and then guard the Druid when he meditates. As a bonus, you'll have more combined slots for all manner of fun and/or broken utility effects.

[Arcanist]

First about rope trick. What high level character doesn't use a bag of holding?

Lemme stop you right there.


If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

A Rope trick is not a portable hole and therefore does not tear open a portal to the Astral Plane. It should also be noted that a Bag of Holding can be placed inside a Bag of Holding without worry (same with a Portable Hole inside a Portable hole). Rope trick is also called out as an exception by WoTC here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a)


Don't you have to climb a rope? IE a climb skill check which is a standard action?



Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action).
The spells text does specifically outline climbing, but never specifies for requiring any skill checks. I could be wrong, but ultimately it doesn't really matter since the encounter has already been neutralized. The creatures are either dead or starting to die and this can entirely be resolved by the spell in question being exchanged with Displacement.

[Shoelessme]

One thing a DM i knew and really enjoyed had an interesting mechanic he used. leveling up a Wizard only got to pick spells from the PHB. He could then spend the time looking or studying for spells from anything else, DM permitting. Not saying everyone should use this but I think it made the game interesting. To often there are spells in the spell compendium that are just flat better in every respect but do the same thing as those in the PHB. I'm not sure why they chose to do that.

[ArcturusV]

Actually it's vague. There's no rule for what happens with Rope Tricks within Rope Tricks (Ropeception) or similar things. It's entirely up to DM whim at that point, like unduly punishing someone who used Wish for something other than mimicking spells, teleporting, +1 stat or non-magical loot. Or they could just not open the Bag of Holding while within the Rope Trick and it shouldn't be a problem.

[eggynack]

Also I usually DM games from lvl 1 up to lvl 12-15. It changes things dramatically when certain character types are more powerful in certain level ranges and even more when they have to build with an eye to being useful at every level not just how to fix in feats to make them epic at high levels.
Wizards start out pretty great, and begin outpacing fighters somewhere between level two and five, depending on who you ask. Druids start outpacing fighters at level one, and then things get crazy. Most builds do not rely on doing sub-par things in the early levels. For the most part, the goal is a smooth power progression from level one through twenty. I can't think of too many builds that suck until they turn on at a certain level. There are certainly some that really blossom later on, but they're far from useless early on.

As to your question on how to make casters and non-casters gain equity, my answer is to just bypass the problem entirely. Just decide with your group that you're playing a high or low power game, and have everyone choose classes within a certain power range. This can mean anything from a wizard, cleric, druid, artificer party, to a warblade, factotum, beguiler, psychic warrior party, to a fighter, rogue, adept, warmage party, all the way down to a CW samurai, commoner, expert, monk party. You don't need to employ crazy workarounds, or target casters specifically. You just use the balance of the game, instead of working against it.

[Spuddles]

CL8 is really the earliest you can safely rest in a rope trick, but even then, you have to cast the spell, climb up the rope, and begin resting all in the same round. A single round not spent resting means you're interrupted by a 5ft fall. Pretty good alarm clock, though. Even then, you still need to spend an hour preparing spells.

CL10 rope trick is really the best rope trick. 8 hours rest +1 hour prep +1 hour whatever.


(getting into the rope trick is a none action)

It requires a move action and a DC5 climb check to get into a rope trick. If your speed is less than 20 feet, it takes a full round to climb in. And that's assuming a 5ft rope. A 10 foot rope requires a 40 foot move speed to climb in a move action. You can up the DC to 10 and climb at half speed.

[Shoelessme]

Lemme stop you right there.


A Rope trick is not a portable hole and therefore does not tear open a portal to the Astral Plane. It should also be noted that a Bag of Holding can be placed inside a Bag of Holding without worry (same with a Portable Hole inside a Portable hole). Rope trick is also called out as an exception by WoTC here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a)

From the link you gave
"
Other interactions between extradimensional spaces are possible. For example, the rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion both create extradimensional spaces. The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside.
"

This is not RAW. It's not even FAQ. This is his recommendation. You can take it or leave it, as even he admits the text on rope trick would seem to indicate a problem.
That being said. This is obviously a easy handwave by a DM. I personally think rope trick is kinda broken so I use the rules as written. But that's my personal choice. I'm not trying to convince you to do so.

BTW why would anyone use the Mordenkainen's Mansion spells instead of low level rope trick? I love the color of the Mansion line of spells but they don't seam that useful. I kinda wish I had a way to make them worth casting.

[Komatik]

One thing a DM i knew and really enjoyed had an interesting mechanic he used. leveling up a Wizard only got to pick spells from the PHB. He could then spend the time looking or studying for spells from anything else, DM permitting. Not saying everyone should use this but I think it made the game interesting. To often there are spells in the spell compendium that are just flat better in every respect but do the same thing as those in the PHB. I'm not sure why they chose to do that.

It can result in fun mini-adventures and pleasant discoveries, but doesn't really do much for the Wizard's raw power level. Which is totally fine, a spellbook as loot is rad. Just don't pretend it solves anything, because the PHB already contains all the usual campaign breakers and ridiculous battlefield control spells - Fly, Overland Flight, Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Time Stop, Shapechange, Foresight, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Scry, Teleport, Glitterdust, Cloudkill, Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, Summon Monster, all manner of Save or Dies, you name it.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Limiting to PHB is basically just limiting it to stuff they'd want to pick anyway. I don't find that extra books add a lot of raw power to spell lists. Add niche stuff, yeah. Some neat tricks. But the Raw Power is all book 1.

Probably a better option if you wanted to limit the free spells to cap power would be to do something like ask for Categories and pick random spells out of that category. I don't mean like "Conjuration spells" or "Battlefield Control" spells. But say something like "Oh... I was researching spells to do with the forces of Good and Celestia" which might include a random list of anything from Magic Circle Against Evil and Planar Ally to Estanna's Stew or Lantern Light that would be determined by the roll of the dice. "Oh, in the course of your research you found out how to call forth extradimensional beings more efficiently (You learned Summon Monster V), and how to protect yourself against some of those rogue beings or trap them (You learned Magic Circle Against Evil)."

Which is something I'd do to myself for fun. But probably wouldn't enforce on most players, just a select few I know who would love that sort of thing.

[eggynack]

This is not RAW. It's not even FAQ. This is his recommendation. You can take it or leave it, as even he admits the text on rope trick would seem to indicate a problem.
That being said. This is obviously a easy handwave by a DM. I personally think rope trick is kinda broken so I use the rules as written. But that's my personal choice. I'm not trying to convince you to do so.

The problem with this is that there is no RAW. There's no actual hazard listed in the spell, so anything that a DM comes up with is just a guess. Further, the option to just not open the thing seems like it'd work. The extra-dimensional spaces don't really have a way to interact if the bag stays closed. In any case, it's physically impossible to have an actual RAW solution to the problem of putting a bag of holding into a rope trick. Your only real recourse is to continually tell the player how hazardous this course of action is until he gives up and just has everyone sit around a campfire.

[Shoelessme]

It can result in fun mini-adventures and pleasant discoveries, but doesn't really do much for the Wizard's raw power level. Which is totally fine, a spellbook as loot is rad. Just don't pretend it solves anything, because the PHB already contains all the usual campaign breakers and ridiculous battlefield control spells - Fly, Overland Flight, Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Time Stop, Shapechange, Foresight, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Scry, Teleport, Glitterdust, Cloudkill, Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, Summon Monster, all manner of Save or Dies, you name it.

Not completely disagreeing with you but I took a look at treemonks guide to wizards. A good portion of his suggested spells are not from PHB. I would say under a 1/4 are but, no i havn't counted. I do admit I use the old common sense rule on some of those spells. Polymorph especially. I also heavily discourage summon monster. Not because its OP or not OP but because if the player isn't on the ball it really slows down the game action. Please make cards with what you can summon and their stats before you cast it. Otherwise looking through the book for stats. adding your bonues, adding feats.....it becomes a nightmare. You have cards and show that you can use them quickly then go ahead and summon IMO.

[Shoelessme]

Yeah. Limiting to PHB is basically just limiting it to stuff they'd want to pick anyway. I don't find that extra books add a lot of raw power to spell lists. Add niche stuff, yeah. Some neat tricks. But the Raw Power is all book 1.

Probably a better option if you wanted to limit the free spells to cap power would be to do something like ask for Categories and pick random spells out of that category. I don't mean like "Conjuration spells" or "Battlefield Control" spells. But say something like "Oh... I was researching spells to do with the forces of Good and Celestia" which might include a random list of anything from Magic Circle Against Evil and Planar Ally to Estanna's Stew or Lantern Light that would be determined by the roll of the dice. "Oh, in the course of your research you found out how to call forth extradimensional beings more efficiently (You learned Summon Monster V), and how to protect yourself against some of those rogue beings or trap them (You learned Magic Circle Against Evil)."

Which is something I'd do to myself for fun. But probably wouldn't enforce on most players, just a select few I know who would love that sort of thing.
Cool Idea. But ya I wouldn't force this on someone. I might try it out myself sometime for fun though.

[eggynack]

Not completely disagreeing with you but I took a look at treemonks guide to wizards. A good portion of his suggested spells are not from PHB. I would say under a 1/4 are but, no i havn't counted. I do admit I use the old common sense rule on some of those spells. Polymorph especially. I also heavily discourage summon monster. Not because its OP or not OP but because if the player isn't on the ball it really slows down the game action. Please make cards with what you can summon and their stats before you cast it. Otherwise looking through the book for stats. adding your bonues, adding feats.....it becomes a nightmare. You have cards and show that you can use them quickly then go ahead and summon IMO.
There are a ton of great spells outside of core, and with access a wizard will likely prepare a whole bunch of them. However, a wizard can do perfectly fine within the confines of core. They're not at the exact same power level, but they're still frigging amazing. He'll just have to make do casting solid fog, without ever upgrading to freezing fog. The most broken spells are in core, but that doesn't mean that all of the broken spells are in core, or that they cover every base that the wizard could ever want. They definitely cover every base that the wizard really needs though.

[Arcanist]

This is not RAW. It's not even FAQ. This is his recommendation. You can take it or leave it, as even he admits the text on rope trick would seem to indicate a problem.
That being said. This is obviously a easy handwave by a DM. I personally think rope trick is kinda broken so I use the rules as written. But that's my personal choice. I'm not trying to convince you to do so.

Alright so please enlighten me what you believe happens when a Bag of Holding enters a Rope Trick. Please stick to RAW. :smallwink: Hint: there is none.

CL8 is really the earliest you can safely rest in a rope trick, but even then, you have to cast the spell, climb up the rope, and begin resting all in the same round. A single round not spent resting means you're interrupted by a 5ft fall. Pretty good alarm clock, though. Even then, you still need to spend an hour preparing spells.

This only applies to Wizards who don't use Extend spell correct?


It requires a move action and a DC5 climb check to get into a rope trick. If your speed is less than 20 feet, it takes a full round to climb in. And that's assuming a 5ft rope. A 10 foot rope requires a 40 foot move speed to climb in a move action. You can up the DC to 10 and climb at half speed.

And that is outlined by the spell where?

EDIT: RIGHT HERE! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm)


One thing a DM i knew and really enjoyed had an interesting mechanic he used. leveling up a Wizard only got to pick spells from the PHB. He could then spend the time looking or studying for spells from anything else, DM permitting. Not saying everyone should use this but I think it made the game interesting. To often there are spells in the spell compendium that are just flat better in every respect but do the same thing as those in the PHB. I'm not sure why they chose to do that.

So the Wizard is required to travel across the land, searching far and wide (dun dun dun!) while the Fighter just writes on his character sheet "Shock Trooper" on his sheet because he just walked down to the nearest Fight club and learned it? I'm sorry, but being able to pick certain spells over other spells is what makes being a Wizard... Well a Wizard and being able to just flat out say "No" to a player who actually worked hard to get 7th level and just say "No, Celerity does not exist in this campaign setting, would you like Summon Monster 4?" while passing the Fighter his +1 Halfweight Mithral Mechanus Gear Armor is a biased limitation on the Wizard. The glory about opening sourcebooks is that everyone in the party should get access to them and not be picked and chosen who gets access to them.

It seems your DM is trying to place a limitation that hurts the party more than bolstering the Fighter. Peeing in someone Else's soup doesn't make your soup taste any less like pee.

[eggynack]

And that is outlined by the spell where?

It's not. It's explicitly mentioned that the DC for climbing a rope trick is five in the climb skill.

[Arcanist]

It's not. It's explicitly mentioned that the DC for climbing a rope trick is five in the climb skill.

Well I'll be damned :smallconfused: How did I not notice that? :smalltongue:

[Shoelessme]

Alright so please enlighten me what you believe happens when a Bag of Holding enters a Rope Trick. Please stick to RAW. :smallwink: Hint: there is none.

It is Hazardous and the only listed Hazardous options would be either the rift or portle and the bag is destroyed. So roll and choose. Or pick as a DM any hazard you feel like and put it in. Since the spell description clearly states that it is hazardous either would be legit. You are allowed a lot of leeway by the rules as a dm. just because they dont hold your hand and tell you how many D6 of damage doesn't make it a house rule. If a DM you played with did something nasty to you and showed you this line of text in the rules could you really argue with him?



So the Wizard is required to travel across the land, searching far and wide (dun dun dun!) while the Fighter just writes on his character sheet "Shock Trooper" on his sheet because he just walked down to the nearest Fight club and learned it? I'm sorry, but being able to pick certain spells over other spells is what makes being a Wizard... Well a Wizard and being able to just flat out say "No" to a player who actually worked hard to get 7th level and just say "No, Celerity does not exist in this campaign setting, would you like Summon Monster 4?" while passing the Fighter his +1 Halfweight Mithral Mechanus Gear Armor is a biased limitation on the Wizard. The glory about opening sourcebooks is that everyone in the party should get access to them and not be picked and chosen who gets access to them.

Actualy i do the same thing to a fighter. I use the optional info from the PHB2 on training for new levels and feats. If you can't find someone to train you in it then you have to learn it on your own via a quest or at least some roleplay.
As for the gear. Your the DM. you choose what magic items they have access to. If you don't like a certain type of item make it harder to find.


It seems your DM is trying to place a limitation that hurts the party more than bolstering the Fighter. Peeing in someone Else's soup doesn't make your soup take any less like pee.
The purpose isn't to pee in the soup but to make it fun for everyone. Extra role play and quests to get powerful abilities are FUN. they are nice extras you can do to make things more interesting for your characters. Frankly if I am going to get some powerful skill I love to have to work for it. If its free I don't value it. A good story is not one where you walk up and one shot Sauron. That is boring. Its fun when you have to search out the blade of kings, reforge it with the elves then charge off to Mordor to challenge Sauron while the ring bearer backdoors him hard!
PS. Ixnay on a wizard teleporting to mordor and dropping the ring in. See explanation above on FUN :smallwink:.

[IncoherentEssay]

Worth noting that Bag of Holding is a nondimensional space, not an extradimensional one. So even by the horribly vague RAW of Rope Trick, there is no interaction whatsoever between extradimensional and nondimensional spaces.
Portable Hole is a specific exception to this, and you do need to remember not to bring a Portable Hole with you into a Rope Trick since that would trigger the extradimensional space interaction clause.

As for making noncaster feel like they are contributing, i prefer to buff them instead of piling contrived casterhate into the campaing or making blanket nerf rulings (those always cause more collateral damage than they are worth).
Some changes are called for, but the end result should still be playable (and not a "do i kill myself now or later" gamble that some "fixes" end up as) as well as basically invisible to non-optimised casters. Bringing the high end down a bit and leave the casual blastercasters as is.

Buffs consist of beefing up base attack bonus* (applies at 1/2 as a Dodge Bonus to AC/Saves and as a nontyped to initiative & weapon damage (but not to weapon-like spells)). As well as homebrew feats (mostly tactical feats for access to swift/immediate action options, prerequisited so as to keep them away from gishes).
I've also considered adding a "reflexive action" category for use in homebrewing: basically an immediate action that can expend an AoO instead of your next swift action, but is unavailable if you've cast spells since the start of your turn and shuts off casting until the start of your next turn if you use one.
This is due to the ability requiring your full concentration and would also apply to spell-casting-like abilities (at least spell-likes, probably non-passive supernaturals too), exact definition pending.

It also helps that my group is generally low-optimisation.

*to clarify, Base Attack Bonus derived from class levels only. Monster HD derived BAB is already treated differently by the rules (not capped at 20 HD) so it has precedent and allowing monstrous BAB to apply to all the aforementioned stuff is just a recipe for disaster (and would be a wonderful example of what i meant by collateral rules damage).

[ArcturusV]

Well, the Loot thing isn't really all THAT true unless you go very insane on it. Players can easily make their own gear if they got it in them, and will if you allow them to. And you kinda gotta go out of your way to shut it down. Magic Mart isn't required. Nor lucky drops.

"Hazardous" could mean anything. There is no RAW on it. There's not even a suggestion of the severity of it. That's what he was getting at. Hazardous could mean something as simple as... "the overlap makes the Rope Trick's space slippery, you might fall out if you try to move around too much". It's not all about being tossed into the Void or having your soul sucked out, or catastrophic supernova explosions of effectively instant death.

[eggynack]

Well I'll be damned :smallconfused: How did I not notice that? :smalltongue:
I didn't really notice it either, until he brought up the climb check. It's kinda hidden away in a whole different section of the game, and the spell itself never really talks about the procedure for climbing the rope. It's a vaguely ambiguous spell like that.

@Shoelessme: What you are describing in terms of the rope trick is not RAW. If you seek to hide behind the dictate of RAW, you must have actual RAW to back you up. Anything that you have happen to this wizard is very much a houserule, though that's not as bad a thing as it's often made out to be. Just about every game in existence uses house rules, many of which they never even notice. Every time someone drowns, or punches someone as a monk, or uses ride by attack, they're almost always bridging over some gap in the rules with their minds. However, just because house rules aren't a bad thing doesn't make them not house rules. You can't use a house rule as a shield in your arguments, and using RAW in conjunction with one is illogical. Just because common sense tells you that something is true, doesn't mean it is.

[Spuddles]

This only applies to Wizards who don't use Extend spell correct?

Yes, in that case it halves the caster level required. But it is also fairly resource intensive at level 5. I suppose having the party go in on a lesser metamagic rod of extend would be reasonable and eminently doable.

However, I find at levels 1 through 5, I often hit a level or two, or three, before I get any down time, due to how the CR system works.

A CR3 encounter at level 1 is doable, but yields triple xp relative to what you should be getting, which means you level three times as fast. A dungeon with two CR3 encounters and 3 CR1 encounters will level you up. Add some random encounters, and suddenly you're looking at leaving town at level 1 and coming back level 3 or 4. At level 10, a CR 12 encounter is only going to yield you 1.2x more xp relative to your level.

Anyway, an aside, but I find the sort of perfect item access casters are assumed to have (or anyone, really) fairly rare in the games I play. Not because the DMs don't allow it per se, but that there aren't any scrolls of town portal or pet dogs you send back to vendor loot, or a traveling salesman, or a stash.


I didn't really notice it either, until he brought up the climb check. It's kinda hidden away in a whole different section of the game, and the spell itself never really talks about the procedure for climbing the rope. It's a vaguely ambiguous spell like that.

I dunno, I thought it was pretty clear that you make an extra dimensional opening at the top of a rope 5 to 30 feet in length. You need a way to get into the hole, the most obvious being climbing the rope. Then it's just a simple matter of looking up climb rules. I was honestly just as surprised as you guys to see the DC specifically spelled out in there for the spell.

Once I had to use a fly spell on the party's dire lion to get it into a rope trick because it couldn't climb the damn rope. Which meant that I was a fly spell short for a fight with a beholder and the druid got turned to stone.

Have a nice statue now :smallbiggrin:

[Shoelessme]

Well, the Loot thing isn't really all THAT true unless you go very insane on it. Players can easily make their own gear if they got it in them, and will if you allow them to. And you kinda gotta go out of your way to shut it down. Magic Mart isn't required. Nor lucky drops.

"Hazardous" could mean anything. There is no RAW on it. There's not even a suggestion of the severity of it. That's what he was getting at. Hazardous could mean something as simple as... "the overlap makes the Rope Trick's space slippery, you might fall out if you try to move around too much". It's not all about being tossed into the Void or having your soul sucked out, or catastrophic supernova explosions of effectively instant death.

Since Hazardous could mean anything my freind then it could be the soul sucking end of it as easily as the other. But yes it is nonspecific. So in this case its DM's choice.

On the loot end of it. I think it is that easy. NPC High level casters are not that common and they are probably busy. So getting an item enchanted at high levels is not a given. If your in a small town its probably impossible. Same for buying it. In a small town it might not be available in any store. If you want to enchant it yourself you could.... At the expense of alot of xp, gold, and more importantly time. In a metropolis its alot more likely. But again its not guaranteed. Make them roll on a gather information check to find someone capable of making what they want. Then diplomacy to convince him to do it at all. Then have them charge him for it as per the appraise check. Then you have to wait till he finishes enchanting it. Or roll to find it in a store and bargain for it. But legendary gear is unlikely to be sitting on a shelf. Who could afford to buy it?

[Shoelessme]

A couple people have pointed out that since the RAW does not give specific consequences for extra-dimensional overlap that by RAW nothing happens.

I understand part of that but I don't buy it. Here is why.
RAW does indicate that it is "Hazardous" to do.
It does not give details but if nothing happens then it is obviously not Hazardous. Therefor nothing is a violation of RAW. However, if a Hazard of some kind does appear then you have fulfilled RAW. So something MUST happen by RAW and that something must qualify as a dangerous or risky (see defnition). Whatever you choose to do then that is dangerous to the party or risky to the party would be sanctioned by RAW. Since no specifics are given you are not limited in what you do to them as long as you do something.

haz·ard
Noun
A danger or risk.
Synonyms
noun. risk - peril - jeopardy - chance - danger - venture

[Arcanist]

It is Hazardous and the only listed Hazardous options would be either the rift or portle and the bag is destroyed. So roll and choose. Or pick as a DM any hazard you feel like and put it in. Since the spell description clearly states that it is hazardous either would be legit. You are allowed a lot of leeway by the rules as a dm. just because they dont hold your hand and tell you how many D6 of damage doesn't make it a house rule. If a DM you played with did something nasty to you and showed you this line of text in the rules could you really argue with him?

The hazard isn't specified anywhere what happens when a Bag of Holding interacts with a Rope Trick and the Bag of Holding only creates a rift when it interacts with a Portable Hole. The rest is just DM whim, hell I've had a DM send our group into the Demiplane of Cotton Candy (Tragically enough I am not joking) when a guy made his move silent check to steal from our Wizard and toss his portable hole (It was folded away in his backpack) into his bag of holding.

It is a house rule because not only is it not specified, it is also up for DM's interpretation. Hazard could mean that it deals 1d6per caster level, Hazard could mean that it throws the inhabitants into the Astral Plane, Hazard could also mean that it sends them to the forest moon of Endor.

I'd like to note that while I was typing this I read IncoherentEssay's comment and would very much like to know what a nondimensional space is as well.


Actualy i do the same thing to a fighter. I use the optional info from the PHB2 on training for new levels and feats. If you can't find someone to train you in it then you have to learn it on your own via a quest or at least some roleplay.

And the Wizard cannot just learn "Orb of Force" himself the same way the Fighter can learn "Shock Trooper" because? I actually favor the roleplay method since it allows for such side quest as Time Travel, Planar Travel, Spelljamming, etc. allowing players access to a wider variety of elements from the game (Eberron Campaign including a Wizard with the Greyhawk Method feat and all that other good stuff) "Year of down time? I'm going to Greyspace!"


As for the gear. Your the DM. you choose what magic items they have access to. If you don't like a certain type of item make it harder to find.

At least this rule doesn't slow down the Wizards. Congrats, it is now a Low Magic setting and everyone must struggle for magical items! Except for the Wizard who can make them himself :smalltongue:

I'd like to note at this moment that upon immediately being able to make an at will item of Secret chest, I do so and store my Bag of Holding/Portable chest there. Yes, I understand the flaw in this (losing the item means losing the secret chest), but it is less of a hassle when dealing with a DM that states that a Bag of Holding makes a Rope Trick go nuclear.


The purpose isn't to pee in the soup but to make it fun for everyone. Extra role play and quests to get powerful abilities are FUN. they are nice extras you can do to make things more interesting for your characters. Frankly if I am going to get some powerful skill I love to have to work for it. If its free I don't value it. A good story is not one where you walk up and one shot Sauron. That is boring. Its fun when you have to search out the blade of kings, reforge it with the elves then charge off to Mordor to challenge Sauron while the ring bearer backdoors him hard!
PS. Ixnay on a wizard teleporting to mordor and dropping the ring in. See explanation above on FUN :smallwink:.

It isn't fun for the Wizard when you limit them unfairly, just like how it isn't fun when the Fighter is getting replaced by the Druid. A long time ago I figured that each party member had their own role. Traps and locks go to the Skill monkey, Healing, buffing and magical support go to the caster and the meaty guys act as the meat shield for the party; Sure you can replace each of these with a creature or whatever that won't take any loot or XP, but where is the fun in that? :smalltongue:


*snip*

The Hazard is the greatest hazard of all... BOREDOM! (DUN DUN DUN!!!! (http://www.dramabutton.com/))

EDIT: Also, as a polite request, please change the title of your thread to Wizard Weaknesses and party make up

[eggynack]

Actually, there's just no RAW answer to this one. There aren't any rules written, so there are no rules as written. every conceivable circumstance in the game isn't covered by RAW. Additionally, as has been noted, there technically isn't any proof that the bag of holding is "extra-dimensional space", so this rule arguably does not apply.

[Shoelessme]

EDIT: Also, as a polite request, please change the title of your thread to Wizard Weaknesses and party make up

Umm. last i checked it was Wizard Weaknesses and party make up. Is something else showing?

[ArcturusV]

You spelled it "week"ness. Rather than "weak"ness.

As in Days of the Week rather than Weak like kitten.

[Shoelessme]

You spelled it "week"ness. Rather than "weak"ness.

As in Days of the Week rather than Weak like kitten.

Ah my bad.....I think I also have them putting paint on there faces.... Ill have to search the help files to see how to change that. As soon as I do I will fix it.

Edit: There doesn't seem to be anyway to edit threads. If you know how let me know please.

[IncoherentEssay]

For editing the title, edit the first post. Specifically the title of that post.


... what a nondimensional space is .


A Portable Hole is extradimensional as it has a specific set of dimensions (a diameter of 6 ft and a depth of 10 ft) that it always "creates" when active.
Magnificient mansion similarly has defined dimensions. It does give the caster more influence over what exactly those are, but once set they remain consistent.
A Bag of Holding has a volume and a weight limit. As long as you don't exceed those you can stuff anything in it. A cube of jello? Sure why not. A park bench that wouldn't fit in any "cube" of the bag's total volume but is under the volume limit itself? Yes, you can. A spare mast? Not a problem.
The bag has no defined space within it, no specific dimensions the items within must fit inside. Just a volume limit. Hence, a non-dimensional space.

This last bit is just speculation, but i'd guess that extradimensional spaces clash where non-dimensionals don't because extradimensionals are trying to impose thier own dimensions on that same bit of reality, the results of which are like printing two pages of text on the same side of a paper: a jumbled mess. Even worse, it's a jumbled mess that manipulates space. Just stick to non-dimensionals.

[Wings of Peace]

Are we talking purely within core? Because I can name at least two easy ways outside of core to either refresh spells on the fly or have enough bonus slots to put of some reasonably impregnable wards to rest within (Defiler Magic and tainted casting).

[Eldan]

Well. In most campaigns I've been in, this is in fact the case. Not that the wizard is often stopped from resting, but that the mundanes and any present animals are usually told to stand watch.

The wizard could have ways to get around that, but in my experience, this is rarely necessary. You always have a party, since this is a group game, you might as well use it. This is a way that any character with a high spot and listen check can meaningfully contribute, give them that.

[Shoelessme]

A Portable Hole is extradimensional as it has a specific set of dimensions (a diameter of 6 ft and a depth of 10 ft) that it always "creates" when active.
Magnificient mansion similarly has defined dimensions. It does give the caster more influence over what exactly those are, but once set they remain consistent.
A Bag of Holding has a volume and a weight limit. As long as you don't exceed those you can stuff anything in it. A cube of jello? Sure why not. A park bench that wouldn't fit in any "cube" of the bag's total volume but is under the volume limit itself? Yes, you can. A spare mast? Not a problem.
The bag has no defined space within it, no specific dimensions the items within must fit inside. Just a volume limit. Hence, a non-dimensional space.

This last bit is just speculation, but i'd guess that extradimensional spaces clash where non-dimensionals don't because extradimensionals are trying to impose thier own dimensions on that same bit of reality, the results of which are like printing two pages of text on the same side of a paper: a jumbled mess. Even worse, it's a jumbled mess that manipulates space. Just stick to non-dimensionals.
I take a slightly different tack. IE Extra-Dimensional means a not in this dimension. Usually, but not always, referring to a different plane. Non-dimensional means it is not on any given plane. So non-dimensional is always extra-dimensional because it is not on this plane. All squares are rhombi but not all rhombi are squares.

Also on the odd objects. I have always figured that's why they comment that you can pierce the inside of a bag of holding and ruin it. If you shove something to oddly dimensioned or sharp in there you might cut it and ruin the bag. That being said its to much trouble to keep track of so I usually hand wave it.

[TuggyNE]

A couple people have pointed out that since the RAW does not give specific consequences for extra-dimensional overlap that by RAW nothing happens.

Besides the problem that there isn't anything specific (and besides the point that the danger, whatever it is, may be rare and extremely potent, common and largely irrelevant, or anything in between), there's also the previous note that "nondimensional spaces" (like bags of holding) and even items that can create "extradimensional spaces" (like portable holes) are safe; neither of them qualifies as bringing an extradimensional space within an existing one, since a portable hole only creates it when opened (just don't open it inside, y'know), and a bag of holding isn't extradimensional at all.

Strictly by RAW, mind you. If we're going RAI or RACSD things are hairier; I'm not sure if I'd bother making any special effect, but I might. The suggestion of astral sheen or something making things weird seems interesting.


haz·ard
Noun
A danger or risk.
Synonyms
noun. risk - peril - jeopardy - chance - danger - venture

I'm beginning to wonder if there should be a parallel to Godwin's Law: if you have to resort to quoting dictionary definitions of perfectly ordinary words to make a point, your argument is in serious danger of defaulting to the null hypothesis. :smallsigh:

[Shoelessme]

Strictly by RAW, mind you. If we're going RAI or RACSD things are hairier; I'm not sure if I'd bother making any special effect, but I might. The suggestion of astral sheen or something making things weird seems interesting.

Sorry I don't always get the acronyms. Mind spelling out RAI or RACSD?
Appreciate it.

As for the bag of holding doesn't count as extra dimensional space see my argument above. Personally that seems the worst kind of sophistry. See its a pocket dimension not a real one so it doesn't count. Then again RAW is all about bad sophistry so it might work. Regardless I think we are arguing past each other on this point so ill drop it.

Lets see if I can't redirect back to the point of the thread. IE how do you handle night attacks for low level wizards. As pointed out above you cant even use rope trick without 8-9 levels or 4-5 and extend spell. That leaves a decent amount of time at low levels where a night attack could really spoil your day. Also rolling on the dmg tables for random encounters over 12 hours of nightime sleeping is bound to throw a few at you. Also at low levels having 3-4 encounters in a day you can run out of spells fairly early and want to run off and sleep somewhere. Or try to barricade yourself in a cleared room in the dungeon. That has to result occasionally in the baddies getting tired of waiting.

[TuggyNE]

Sorry I don't always get the acronyms. Mind spelling out RAI or RACSD?
Appreciate it.

Rules As Intended/Rules As Interpreted; intention is not always obvious or even knowable, and interpretations vary, so this is a bit dubious.
Rules As Common Sense Dictates; relies on a general consensus of how things ought to have been done, sometimes in direct contradiction to known designer intentions (on the basis that the designers often did not quite know what they were doing).

Personally, I don't consider designing in weird little gotchas good design, so I'd probably just cut rope trick down to 10 min/level, drop the "unspecified bad things!!1!" warning, and call it a day.

[DigoDragon]

As for making noncaster feel like they are contributing, i prefer to buff them instead of piling contrived casterhate into the campaing or making blanket nerf rulings (those always cause more collateral damage than they are worth).

Also, by buffing the noncasters, it increases the chances of success in a combat should the caster get disabled (it does happen). :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

I'm beginning to wonder if there should be a parallel to Godwin's Law: if you have to resort to quoting dictionary definitions of perfectly ordinary words to make a point, your argument is in serious danger of defaulting to the null hypothesis. :smallsigh:

I know that there's a few things that always make me abandon a thread as a lost cause. One is dictionary definitions in any thread not about etymology, the other is seeing any thread more than half a word page long with three or more quote boxes, unless it's some kind of FAQ thread.

[Arcanist]

Also, by buffing the noncasters, it increases the chances of success in a combat should the caster get disabled (it does happen). :smallsmile:

First rule of frightening an enemy party is kill the enemy casters.


I know that there's a few things that always make me abandon a thread as a lost cause. One is dictionary definitions in any thread not about etymology, the other is seeing any thread more than half a word page long with three or more quote boxes, unless it's some kind of FAQ thread.

I stopped taking this thread seriously after my previous comment.

[Shoelessme]

I should probably close this thread then. I never quite answered what I wanted to know but meh. it was fun. Thank you everyone who posted.

[Eldan]

I'll just quickly state my position again.

The wizard could do all those things. But a good part of efficient wizarding is using your resources wisely. Outside of the most egregious of optimization, you will occasionally be hurting for spell slots on the lower levels, at least in my experience. A smartly run campaign will also run irregular numbers of encounters nad time pressure in many situations.

Therefore, the wizard could probably hop into his alarmed extended rope trick. But doing so is not the smartest thing to do, quite often. It means putting aside spell slots all day to prepare those two spells later. And the alternative is doing something useful with those slots and just letting your buddies do the guarding.

[Komatik]

I'll just quickly state my position again.

The wizard could do all those things. But a good part of efficient wizarding is using your resources wisely. Outside of the most egregious of optimization, you will occasionally be hurting for spell slots on the lower levels, at least in my experience. A smartly run campaign will also run irregular numbers of encounters nad time pressure in many situations.

Therefore, the wizard could probably hop into his alarmed extended rope trick. But doing so is not the smartest thing to do, quite often. It means putting aside spell slots all day to prepare those two spells later. And the alternative is doing something useful with those slots and just letting your buddies do the guarding.

Obviously. The Wizard can benefit from having someone else ensure safety for him, thing is, he doesn't need anyone to do it for him, because he can take care of it himself.

Another tangent is of course just having multiple casters so the strain on anyone's spells is much less.

[Arcanist]

I should probably close this thread then. I never quite answered what I wanted to know but meh. it was fun. Thank you everyone who posted.

I meant no disrespect. I just believe that if something has to be left on DM's whim you shouldn't try to press the argument. Again, no disrespect intended.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I personally hold the opinion that Rope Trick and various "for resting" spells are probably among the most useless of spells in the game.

Here's why:

Wizard: Its only been an hour but I fired all my spells the last two encounters. Time to rest.
DM: You sure you've only been up for half a day IC and are in the middle of the dungeon.
Wizard: Yep, I'll use Rope Trick to shelter the party in, I can just make it last 8 hours at my CL.
DM: Okay you sure?
Wizard: Yep
-8 Hours Pass IC-
Wizard: Okay spell slots full let's get the rest of this dungeon
DM: No need. You rapidly discover that in the eight hours you were asleep the orcs you were supposed to be clearing out of the ruins found the corpse of their commrades and cleared out. They took everything of value with them.
Wizard: Umm I guess we return to town then.
DM: You return to the town where you picked up information about the orcs. Its in ashes. You find one man on the verge of death and his final words a curse at you for failing to protect the village.
DM: And that will be if for tonight everyone, since you didn't complete the quest I'm awarding no XP and you get no loot. The few you did kill are docked as a penalty and clearly weren't an actual challenge so you didn't learn anything having killed them.

And then next game the party has to put up with mercenaries after the bounty put on their heads when the village survivors went and begged the king for redress.

Seriously folks any game runner that actually uses such video game like AI stupidity as presuming your opponents just remain static while you take your time.... simply isn't trying very hard and has tacitly accepted any manipulations you try to pull.

Whatever spells or tricks you may have to protect your rest, you really can only do so by DM fiat. Spells like Rope Trick are for when you are traveling across dangerous territory over several days or such, not ignoring the need to conserve your spells.

This also applies to item crafting, you have to ask for and receive time to craft things.

[Komatik]

Most examples in here are for camping safely and invisibly to guard against nasty things like ambushes, not for enabling braindeath like 15 minute workdays.

[IncoherentEssay]

I take a slightly different tack. IE Extra-Dimensional means a not in this dimension. Usually, but not always, referring to a different plane. Non-dimensional means it is not on any given plane. So non-dimensional is always extra-dimensional because it is not on this plane. All squares are rhombi but not all rhombi are squares.

Also on the odd objects. I have always figured that's why they comment that you can pierce the inside of a bag of holding and ruin it. If you shove something to oddly dimensioned or sharp in there you might cut it and ruin the bag. That being said its to much trouble to keep track of so I usually hand wave it.
My point was that in RAW there is nothing that states extradimendional = nondimensional, or even anything in that direction. The effects are similar but different, not unlike Antimagic Field and Dead Magic Zone. Thus by RAW there are no issues with Bags and Rope Tricks. The rest of it is just how i'd fluff it.

If a DM were to houserule otherwise (which they would be free to do) one could just get a permanencied Shrink Item on the Bag/Haversack/equilavent so it is in stasis (and thus inactive) for the duration of the nap (Shrink can only be cast on non-magical items, but simply supressing an item with dispel makes it a legal target). Before you ask, Dispel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) does specify that supressed containers merely lose access temporarily. The contents are safe, merely unavailabl for the moment (spellbook is obviously stored elsewhere so prep can be done inside the trick).


I personally hold the opinion that Rope Trick and various "for resting" spells are probably among the most useless of spells in the game.

Here's why:

Wizard: Its only been an hour but I fired all my spells the last two encounters. Time to rest.
DM: You sure you've only been up for half a day IC and are in the middle of the dungeon.
Wizard: Yep, I'll use Rope Trick to shelter the party in, I can just make it last 8 hours at my CL.
DM: Okay you sure?
Wizard: Yep
-8 Hours Pass IC-
Wizard: Okay spell slots full let's get the rest of this dungeon
DM: No need. You rapidly discover that in the eight hours you were asleep the orcs you were supposed to be clearing out of the ruins found the corpse of their commrades and cleared out. They took everything of value with them.
Wizard: Umm I guess we return to town then.
DM: You return to the town where you picked up information about the orcs. Its in ashes. You find one man on the verge of death and his final words a curse at you for failing to protect the village.
DM: And that will be if for tonight everyone, since you didn't complete the quest I'm awarding no XP and you get no loot. The few you did kill are docked as a penalty and clearly weren't an actual challenge so you didn't learn anything having killed them.

And then next game the party has to put up with mercenaries after the bounty put on their heads when the village survivors went and begged the king for redress.

Seriously folks any game runner that actually uses such video game like AI stupidity as presuming your opponents just remain static while you take your time.... simply isn't trying very hard and has tacitly accepted any manipulations you try to pull.

Whatever spells or tricks you may have to protect your rest, you really can only do so by DM fiat. Spells like Rope Trick are for when you are traveling across dangerous territory over several days or such, not ignoring the need to conserve your spells.

This also applies to item crafting, you have to ask for and receive time to craft things.

While i don't advocate 15 min workdays, it's kind of bogus that the authorities would put a bounty on the party for daring to try and help out with the orc problem*.
And what exactly prevents the party from tracking down the orcs now, when they are tired from the raid and making fairly obvious tracks what with all the loot they are hauling?
Did the orcs perform some ancient rite to hightail it to the Demiplane of DM Spite :smalltongue:?
A village did get torched, but that would have happened anyways if the party had done nothing (given that the orc curbstomped it pretty badly) so meh.

I agree that NPCs should obviously react to things even when off-screen and generally make good use of their time and resources, but i'm getting a rather heavy-handed "you didn't do it my way, so you don't get to do so at all" vibe from this execution of it. Out of game punishment (calling the game short when the party still has obvious leads to follow and docking xp) for ingame decisions.


*unless they took payment up front and didn't give it back on failure, but seriously, who would be dumb enough to pay adventurers before the job is done / ruin their future employment prospects by keeping unearned payment?

[GreenETC]

I honestly prefer Rope Trick for resting at the end of the day, even with extra party members.

What's safer?

Sitting in a room in a dungeon asleep while everyone takes turns up and watching, or sitting in a dimensional pocket in the sky asleep while everyone takes turns up and watching, since you can see out of the Rope Trick.

[Arcanist]

Also bar fights are an excellent way to humiliate a snoody wizard in your game. Grapple + nonlethal requirements can be awkward. Not unbeatable just kinda funny. Assassins in a crowded bar also work. The previous DM I mentioned basically emptied a small bucket of minatures to crowd the bar and we had no idea at first which of them were the assassins and witch were innocent customers pulling out weapons to defend themselves.

... I cannot possibly be reading this correctly or in context... :smallconfused:


And then next game the party has to put up with mercenaries after the bounty put on their heads when the village survivors went and begged the king for redress.

Sure, I am against the 15 minute adventure day and you bet your but that I've thought about dragging the party into trouble when they start doing stupid stuff (seriously? Resting in the middle of enemy territory? What part of that seems intelligent?), but I am not going to brutalize the party (because, lets face it, that is unnecessary brutalization). Also it seems that you only give XP for the completion of whole quest rather than XP per encounter (and if you're using the BoED per challenge) that the party has overcome.

I think I have reason to believe that you two are unnecessarily antagonistic towards intelligent play and spellcasters. Would you still apply this line of reasoning had the party hid the bodies in their bags of holding (or a devouring bag) or used a Wand of Shrink Item on the corpses to keep them in your pocket or something? Or would they automatically know because "They didn't come back from their shift check" or my personal favorite "Their leader used Fell Conspiracy to allow all of their minions to be alerted towards any sort of intruders"? There is a point where preparedness becomes paranoia.

[IncoherentEssay]

Let's be fair, if a guard goes missing the orcs know *something is up*. What exactly is up is the mystery. Immediate evacuation is a bit drastic (and un-orcy), sending out a large search party with wargs is more likely. If the party chose to Trick in the dungeon odds are they will be found. At that point they might be smoked out (if they picked a room suited for it and the orcs have wood to spare), end up trapped when the entrances are collapsed (assuming the dungeon layout allows this) or at least besieged (improvised barriers and a large group of guards are easy enough to arrange for a warband).
If they are not found (picked a clever enough spot for the Trick or such), then the patrols will likely be beefed up a good bit and everyone carries a horn/other noicemaker (if available). Eliminating the orcs a few at a time got a lot tougher.
If the party's guerilla tactics become a pattern *then* the orcs bail out.

Of course, a smart party would collapse all entrances beforehand (it's a lot easier to Dimension Door out if you're a small striketeam than it is for a whole warband).
In Orcham Asylum you can run and you can hide, but batman (wizard) will eventually get ya :smalltongue:.

[Shoelessme]

Well, I guess I was wrong about the thread ending. Just checked back.

In regards to the encounter with assassins in a crowded bar with lots of innocent bystanders, it was an awesome encounter. Our wizard had alot of trouble but then so did the rest of us. It was a smart and fun idea from our DM.

As to the shrink item on a magic dispelled bag. I do not think it works that way. I think as soon as the dispel/suppression ends it becomes a magic item again and the shrink item fails. I don't think its being shrunk would keep the magic properties suppressed.
Shrink item is already really powerful and fun spell to use. if you can shrink magic items, and they stay shrunk the entire time, just by suppressing their magic once at the beginning it would be ridiculous.

[Shoelessme]

Can you enchant an area with dimensional anchor? And if you could would it prevent rope trick and Mordenkainen's Mansion from working?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I would not expect a DM to actually be as severe as that anymore then I expect a party to actually use 15min adventuring days.

I'm simply pointing out that resting or anything really involving large measures of time outside the combat round is still fundamentally a matter of discretion on the part of the guy running the show. From time limited objectives to "none of you are tired enough to sleep right now" type shut downs, shenanigans with time largely only work if the DM allows them to work.

I actually tend to think a lot of day restrictions are a little silly. I think for example it should be totally legit for you to say run a scouting mission in the morning, succeed and get word of an attack later that day. Scurry back to whatever base you're defending and grab only say three hours of rest but everybody goes in fully charged. Spells, items, or Su's and SLA's with 1/day type uses.

I tend to think time should be an abstraction in gaming. Like how White Wolf's games make use of "scenes" for duration. Could be a few minutes or the better part of an hour, but you don't need a stop watch on the power you have active.

[Shoelessme]

I think I have reason to believe that you two are unnecessarily antagonistic towards intelligent play and spellcasters.

While I don't entirely agree with his method of dealing with his players I do have to disagree with you in one way. I like intelligent play. That's why I have a problem with certain spells, or at least the abuse of them. They are boring get out of jail free cards that prevent intelligent play. A rope trick spell used as a spy hole to watch an enemy compound from would be a great idea. You can even use it to get over a wall that's cool to. Using it every night to insta avoid any ambushes with no consequences or fun flavor text doesn't encourage intelligent play or allow for any fun role-play. At least the mansion spell you can have your players sitting around a table discussing whats going on, drinking and having a good time. The rope trick doesn't prevent sound from going out only sight so you have to stay quiet. It doesn't allow a campfire for cooking food (smoke?). It doesn't allow much of anything but sitting quietly in the dark (fine you could cast a light spell). If you have a good reason to use it thats one thing. But using it every night would be really uncomfortable and frankly I doubt you could convince your party to go for it if they had to actually live in it.

[Friv]

I would not expect a DM to actually be as severe as that anymore then I expect a party to actually use 15min adventuring days.

Point of order - this thread wasn't about 15-minute adventuring days prior to your post. It was about the use of Rope Trick when you need to sleep, and the OP's suggestion that needing to spend eight hours uninterrupted served as a reasonable check on wizardly power and a reason to require fighters in a party. (as opposed to, say, an owl familiar and a couple of attack dogs).

While Rope Trick is often used as a component of the 15-minute day, the spell does not in fact require, demand, or depend on it.

[Shoelessme]

I just thought of something I probably should have thought about a while ago. Rope trick also doesn't work if you have mounts. Yes you can use a spell for that later but what about your druids bear/dinosaur/whatever the hell he has at this point? Can it climb a rope? And if it could will it fit? Being a large creature you have what 8 times the volume of a small or medium creature?
Even the mansion has an entrance "4 feet wide and 8 feet high" that could be difficult for a large creature to squish through.

EDIT: Does it stink? do you really want to sleep with THAT?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Point of order - this thread wasn't about 15-minute adventuring days prior to your post. It was about the use of Rope Trick when you need to sleep, and the OP's suggestion that needing to spend eight hours uninterrupted served as a reasonable check on wizardly power and a reason to require fighters in a party. (as opposed to, say, an owl familiar and a couple of attack dogs).

While Rope Trick is often used as a component of the 15-minute day, the spell does not in fact require, demand, or depend on it.

Good thing my post was dealing with the general idea subverting of the resting requirement in general and how that really shouldn't work except by allowance of the DM.

It really doesn't matter how you secure your campsight its the time it takes that matters and that while resting you really can't be advancing a plot.


I just thought of something I probably should have thought about a while ago. Rope trick also doesn't work if you have mounts. Yes you can use a spell for that later but what about your druids bear/dinosaur/whatever the hell he has at this point? Can it climb a rope? And if it could will it fit? Being a large creature you have what 8 times the volume of a small or medium creature?
Even the mansion has an entrance "4 feet wide and 8 feet high" that could be difficult for a large creature to squish through.

EDIT: Does it stink? do you really want to sleep with THAT?

It specifies of any size. Non climbing, haul them up with the rope. Course bringing the rope in counts as a creature so if your standard party of four all have companions someone looses out.

Amusingly the spell also doesn't specify that the portal can be closed, what its like in the space, or what happens if the creature limit is exceeded.

Leaving open troubling questions like what if something flies up to the portal and enters to cast Summon Whatever on the other side. Or just starts combat period.

[ArcturusV]

Actually if you disposed of the corpses I wouldn't make anything out of it on the NPC side.

I mean, what's more reasonable in the mind set of your NPCs?

"Hmm... Gortak didn't show up to our post shift poker game last night. An adventurer must have killed him! RED ALERT!"

Or

"Hmm... Gortak didn't show up to our post shift poker game last night. Musta decided to get drunk and wander around the woods, chasin' those 'dryads' of his again... betcha we find him naked and huggin' a tree again."

I've played in a lot of games where option A is what the default is. Seems when I read posts on boards like this Option A is the default again. Not my bag though. Makes your enemies one dimensional, where all they care about is their evil duties, no life beyond that so all irregular activities means evil is being foiled. Option B at least gives the enemies a sense of depth and having a life other than being a baby eating guardian monster. And rewards players for actually thinking to do something like dispose of corpses.

[Spuddles]

3.0 has rules for bags of holding in rope tricks- **** blows up or implodes or whatever.

3.5 lacks the specific rules, only to note that bad things happen.

Since there is no rule to contradict 3.0's rule, then bad things happen when you bring a bag of holding into a rope trick.

[Arcanist]

3.0 has rules for bags of holding in rope tricks- **** blows up or implodes or whatever.

3.5 lacks the specific rules, only to note that bad things happen.

Since there is no rule to contradict 3.0's rule, then bad things happen when you bring a bag of holding into a rope trick.

I always figured that the latest version of a spell, feat, class feature, etc. had more ground over any previous versions of it. If this is not the case, then I guess I'll have to wait until 8th level to take Jack of All Trades :smallfrown:

[Shoelessme]

I always figured that the latest version of a spell, feat, class feature, etc. had more ground over any previous versions of it. If this is not the case, then I guess I'll have to wait until 8th level to take Jack of All Trades :smallfrown:

You are being deliberately obtuse man. If 3.5 does not contradict it then 3.0 is always considered usable. He is saying that since 3.5's description of a Hazard does not contradict the specifics given in 3.0 then 3.0 holds.

EDIT Since I cant find the 3.0 info on this I can't say if he's right or not. But his logic seems sound.

[Spuddles]

You are being deliberately obtuse man. If 3.5 does not contradict it then 3.0 is always considered usable. He is saying that since 3.5's description of a Hazard does not contradict the specifics given in 3.0 then 3.0 holds.

Thanks.

If a DM wanted to use rope tricks go boom, he could use the 3.0 rules that are not contradicted by 3.5, and in fact seem to be supported, while not violating any precious, player entitled RAW.

Of course, there are spells to get around that, like Shadow Cache (SpC).

Assuming, of course, that my memory serves me correctly regarding the language of 3.0 rules.

[Arcanist]

You are being deliberately obtuse man. If 3.5 does not contradict it then 3.0 is always considered usable. He is saying that since 3.5's description of a Hazard does not contradict the specifics given in 3.0 then 3.0 holds.

3rd edition


Rope Trick
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). You and up to seven others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety where no creature can find you. Climbing the rope counts as climbing a knotted rope, which requires a Climb check against DC 5 (see the skill description, page 64). The rope can be taken into the extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it; otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air. Pulling the rope free requires succeeding at a Strength check (DC 30). Spells cannot be cast across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: Creating an extradimensional space within or taking an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

Material Components: Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.


3.5 Edition


Rope Trick
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

Material Component: Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.


Bold where the hazard is actually listed. I lack a 3rd edition DMG so pardon.

EDIT: In fact, I will be so bold as to request to know where the differences are in this spell in addition to the hazard. By all means, please outline it for me.

[Spuddles]

Maybe it's in the dmg, or maybe it's just one of those houserules we always thought was a rule.

The 3.0 version has the rope climb check DC, and it also seems that creatures "use up" space when they climb the rope, not if they are actually residing within the space.