Iron Heart surge, valid targets question

[Warlawk]

So we all know this ability is pretty badly worded.

We were discussing it in the gaming session tonight and another player was pointing out that it says "a condition, spell or effect currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds."

He claims that since it specifies and a duration within the text that only effects with a defined duration can be valid targets. If it is a condition without a specific defined duration it is not a valid target.

My first response could pretty much be summed up as 'lolwut?' Now, this wasn't the DM and we tend to play with IHS at a more realistic level anyways, so my concern is not so much that it will be nerfed within the game as just to be able to point out that this isn't so... except that the ability itself is so badly written I'm not sure that's possible. Anyone have any thoughts?

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that anything that continually exists has a duration. The ability doesn't say anything about the requirement of a fixed or defined duration. I can't really think of too many things that don't have a duration, and could be stopped by IHS along the other guidelines, so this doesn't seem to be a problem.

[Raineh Daze]

So long as it isn't Instantaneous, you should be fine to use it. So, can't use it to stop a fireball, could use it to stop being on fire. Any ongoing effect, time specified or not, that's targeting you seems fair game... so long as the specified time isn't less than a round, if there is one.

I am making no sense.

[Crake]

I've had similar responses from people in the past wrt IHS, saying that the duration must be specified in rounds in some way or something. I've always just run it to work on effects that have at least 1 round duration. So anything with an ambiguously defined duration (for example "Until the next time the king farts" or something stupidly defined by a geas or whatever) can still be stopped by it.

[Curmudgeon]

Basically, the specific grammatical construction used in Iron Heart Surge makes "1 or more rounds" apply only to a duration given in rounds, whereas "1 round or longer" wouldn't have that requirement. If you want a D&D RAW precedent which states that numeric equivalence is not relevant to expressions of duration, look to Draconomicon on page 66:

To take a metabreath feat, a creature must have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds. Therefore, a hell hound (which can breathe once every 2d4 rounds) can take metabreath feats, whereas a behir (breath weapon usable 1/minute) cannot.
10 rounds: yes. 1 minute: no. It's the identical duration, but not the same as far as the D&D rules are concerned.

You can Surge your way out of a Tanglefoot Bag, because that's good for 2d4 rounds, or Otto's Irresistible Dance (1d4+1 rounds). You can't Surge your way out of sunlight, a lava flow, or Solid Fog (1 min./level).

[Deophaun]

10 rounds: yes. 1 minute: no. It's the identical duration, but not the same as far as the D&D rules metabreath feats are concerned.
The precedent is that the rules must specify when rounds cannot be converted to minutes or hours, not that a minute is not functionally equivalent to 10 rounds.

[BowStreetRunner]

I usually see two types of abuse that people try with this ability. The rules for the ability may not be written perfectly (I am quite willing to agree that the writers could have done a much better job), but there is a clear breakdown of the effect's mechanics that can only be overlooked by someone who is already willing to overlook anything that does not support the ruling they want it to support.

Iron Heart Surge directs you to "select one spell, effect, or other condition" that meets two prerequisites. It must be "currently affecting you" and the effect needs to have "a duration of 1 or more rounds".

A 'spell, effect, or other condition' gives pretty wide latitude, so I'm not going to waste time arguing about what fulfills this description, although I've seen some pretty heated arguments about whether things like gravity and daylight fall within the limits set here. I think the other two prerequisites resolve most of those issues anyway.

The first type of abuse I see is ignoring the 'currently affecting you' prerequisite. A Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm) cast on you is very clearly 'currently affecting you'. An Earthquake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm), even if you are inside the area-of-effect, is not. It is affecting the ground beneath you, and you are merely forced to deal with the environmental conditions inside that area. An Inflict Light Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm) that was cast on you last turn isn't currently affecting you. It was done affecting you immediately after it was cast, even though the damage it caused remains.

I'm not saying that area-effect spells don't count just because they are not specifically targeting 'you' however. I would accept that while you are within a Zone of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm) it is currently affecting you. But there is a difference between being directly affected by the spell and having to deal with the effects of the spell in the area.

The second type of abuse I see has to do with the 'duration of 1 or more rounds' prerequisite. Cause Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/causeFear.htm) has a duration of 1 or more rounds. I will even accept that spells like Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) (1 min/level) and Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) (1 hour/level) may count [up to your DM] as these times can also be expressed as rounds. However, I don't believe it is appropriate to say that Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm) has a duration of 1 or more rounds, as it is Permanent (although I find this point at least arguable) and I definitely don't accept that an instantaneous spell like Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm) has a duration of 1 or more rounds, no matter how long you remain petrified.

Furthermore, going back to the aforementioned cheese, natural gravity and natural daylight are absolutely not included under the description of "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." (And yes, I have encountered people trying to argue both of these!)

So while there is certainly latitude for interpretation here, I think most DMs can resolve the issue with a simple and consistent ruling on whether minute, hour, and day/level effects count as having a duration of 1 or more rounds and whether permanent effects also apply in their game.

[GutterFace]

how does this work if you are unable to activate a Standard action? like if you are already Panicked, or Turned to Stone?

[jindra34]

how does this work if you are unable to activate a Standard action? like if you are already Panicked, or Turned to Stone?

It doesn't. You still have to meet all requirements of initiate it before you can consider using it.

[GutterFace]

It doesn't. You still have to meet all requirements of initiate it before you can consider using it.

ah good! thank you!

[Chronos]

Basically, with the way it's written, IHS doesn't work on anything it should work on (since almost all of those prevent you from using it), but does work on things it definitely shouldn't work on. It's one of those few things that's so poorly written that it's universally houseruled.

[Warlawk]

Basically, with the way it's written, IHS doesn't work on anything it should work on (since almost all of those prevent you from using it), but does work on things it definitely shouldn't work on. It's one of those few things that's so poorly written that it's universally houseruled.

Yeah, this was pretty much the issue that I had run into. I'm not really worried about this changing how it's used in play as our group tends toward a gentlemans agreement style of play anyways and IHS is useful but not an i-win type of defensive ability. I was just looking to see if there had ever been any sort of official clarifications or determination on this ability. WTB full eratta for this book please!

[BowStreetRunner]

It doesn't. You still have to meet all requirements of initiate it before you can consider using it.

Which is the major drawback of more than one maneuver or stance from ToB, to be sure. Try changing your stance to Wolverine Stance once you've already been successfully grappled...

[Deophaun]

II definitely don't accept that an instantaneous spell like Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm) has a duration of 1 or more rounds, no matter how long you remain petrified.
In that case, you wouldn't be targeting the spell with IHS, you would be targeting the petrification effect. So if you allow it to work with things of permanent duration, then IHS would work here (assuming you could somehow activate it).

[mattie_p]

In that case, you wouldn't be targeting the spell with IHS, you would be targeting the petrification effect. So if you allow it to work with things of permanent duration, then IHS would work here (assuming you could somehow activate it).

The other requirements to initiate a maneuver (besides standard/whatever) is that you must be able to move (AFB, so no page number, but it is in the initiation section where it explains terms). Petrification prevents movement.

[Deophaun]

The other requirements to initiate a maneuver (besides standard/whatever) is that you must be able to move (AFB, so no page number, but it is in the initiation section where it explains terms). Petrification prevents movement.
Would that be why this was said?

(assuming you could somehow activate it).

[navar100]

It doesn't. You still have to meet all requirements of initiate it before you can consider using it.

That's another problem with Iron Heart Surge. It should be able to undo the effects such as Hold Person or being nauseated, but RAW it can't because you either can't move or can't take the standard action. A common house rule is to make Iron Heart Surge itself be the exception of needing to move to initiate a maneuver and allow you to take a standard action to undo a condition that prevents you from taking a standard action.

[Keld Denar]

My houserules for IHS:



Conditions Iron Heart Surge can end:

Blinded
Confused (assuming an "act normally" roll)
Dazzled
Deafened
Dominated (ONLY in place of a second save, if applicable, see description)
Entangled
Fatigued
Frightened
Nausiated (takes whole round, due to normally denied standard action)
Paniced
Paralyzed (takes whole round)
Shaken
Sickened
Slowed
Various uncatagorized effects not covered at my discression

Conditions Iron Heart Surge can NOT end:
Cowering
Dazed
Fascinated
Petrified
Stunned

I included Paralyzed since you still retain your mental faculties, but left out Stunned and Dazed, since they also prevent you from taking mental actions.

IHS can be used in place of the second save to end a Dominate effect, assuming the dominated character receives orders that would normally dictate a second save. IHS simply replaces that save with an auto-success.

IHS can end effects that normally deny you from taking a standard action or even moving. In such a situation, IHS is the ONLY thing you can do in that round, with the exception of a 5' step if applicable. No swift actions, no move actions, no other standard actions. I think its dumb that IHS can't end the Nausiated condition simply because of poor wording. This is my fix.


I'd assume this also includes spells with durations affecting the character that don't fall into one of the categories above.

[Rijan_Sai]

Page 68 - Iron Heart Surge [Clarification]
Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:

Blinded, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Nauseated, On Fire, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Slowed, Staggered, Turned.
Any spell/power, spell-like/psi-like ability or supernatural ability with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the spell or are within the spell's radius.
Any racial trait currently affecting the initiator (such as Light Sensitivity or a vampire's weakness to sunlight). The source of this detriment is not removed, only the condition caused by the racial trait.
Any extraordinary ability currently affecting the initiator (such as the Frenzy ability of a Frenzied Berserker, or the "Bleeding Wounds" inflicted by certain creatures).
Any ability hindering the initiator caused by an item (alchemical, mundane, magical, or otherwise), such as a caltrop wound.
Any effect not listed above is outside of Iron Heart Surge's range of influence. These conditions cannot be removed, even if their source is a spell's effect or similar ability (such as being dazed by a psionic power, or being affected by a bard's Fascinate ability).

Additionally, some effects can be reinstated at any point during the rest of the round, after you have initiated Iron Heart Surge (for example, a vampire's weakness to sunlight will reinstate its effects at the end of the vampire's turn, unless he uses his move action to exit the sunlight. The move action would be possible immediately after initiating Iron Heart Surge).

In case of Iron Heart Surge affecting a spell or other ability that affects an area (such as the web spell), the entire effect is ended for everyone involved when Iron Heart Surge resolves.

I would like to emphasize that this is the UNOFFICIAL errata (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0), and as such may not work for everyone. That said, with the "official (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)" errata an abject failure, and never to be corrected, this is about as good as it gets*.


*I am in no way affiliated with Sinfire Titan and/or the work that was put into this file, I just like it:smalltongue:.