Building a Warforged? -or- Constructs with Class?

[unseenmage]

So for a Hordificer I'm currently playing I'm admixing 3.0, 3.5, and just a dash of PF. Doing this I found something kinda awkward.

I can build a warforged.

The PF rules for creating new constructs lists a how-to for pricing constructs based on CR. It doesn't say Golems, it says constructs. And as Warforged are constructs I could potentially use these rules to build them.
Even better, adding class levels to a warforged just changes their CR as far as the rules are concerned.
One assumes that just like when you're infusing spells, feats, or class abilities into an item at least one of the creators must actually have the class levels you wish to infuse.

My question is, how bad is it balance-wise, DMGs-thrown-at-head-wise, to have a player who can build a construct with class levels?
Additionally, would it be RAW to say that Warforged are created free-willed? Wouldn't free-will be considered one of their racial traits?

[Hunter Noventa]

So for a Hordificer I'm currently playing I'm admixing 3.0, 3.5, and just a dash of PF. Doing this I found something kinda awkward.

I can build a warforged.

The PF rules for creating new constructs lists a how-to for pricing constructs based on CR. It doesn't say Golems, it says constructs. And as Warforged are constructs I could potentially use these rules to build them.
Even better, adding class levels to a warforged just changes their CR as far as the rules are concerned.
One assumes that just like when you're infusing spells, feats, or class abilities into an item at least one of the creators must actually have the class levels you wish to infuse.

My question is, how bad is it balance-wise, DMGs-thrown-at-head-wise, to have a player who can build a construct with class levels?
Additionally, would it be RAW to say that Warforged are created free-willed? Wouldn't free-will be considered one of their racial traits?

Pretty sure there are no rules for creating a Warforged, since PF doesn't have Warforged, those rules aren't intended to apply to them I'd think.

You'll probably get a DMG thrown at your head for trying, not to mention you're, in a way, creating an intelligent magic item at the same time.

So if you really want to do this, combine the Construct rules with the Intelligent Item rules and you might have something workable.

But since the Construct is intelligent, programming them to obey you would kind of be an evil act I'd think. You're also spending gold and time to effectively get Leadership.

[Invader]

Living construct, there is a distinction.

[unseenmage]

But since the Construct is intelligent, programming them to obey you would kind of be an evil act I'd think. You're also spending gold and time to effectively get Leadership.

There are many examples of intelligent constructs built to serve their creator. The Homunculus, the Nimblewright, and a Techsmith's Gondsman among them. D&D makes a distinction between intelligence and free will.
Dragon 327 page 72 even has a Rudimentary Intelligence option that lets you make any construct intelligent at creation for the low low price of +8,000gp.

So no, giving it intelligence wasn't the issue, weather it had free will by default just for being a Warforged was my question. My apologies for any confusion.



Living construct, there is a distinction.

Agreed, there is a distinction. But what does that distinction mean in regards to my questions and the rules implications on my questions?

I suspect that it would be no different that building an extraplanar or elemental construct. That a subtype is just a subtype. (Though I may be misapplying the word subtype to 'living construct', I'm unsure on that one.)




If I were to build a Warforged, 1st-Level Warrior (MM3 pg 190) it would cost 250gp +25gp for the body because it is a CR 1/2 creature.
The same Warforged as a Fighter would be CR 1 and would cost 500gp + 50gp for the body.

In my game it also takes me a certain amount of time to research custom items and constructs as though they were custom spells replacing SL with CL.

Now it gets interesting, what is their CL? Just the minimum for Craft Construct? So 6th? But most/all constructs have a nod towards command spells/rituals in their creation. Either mixing in your own blood (Homunculus), Geas/Quest, Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle at the very least.

So, one could easily assume that an intelligent construct created without a 'command spell' could easily be considered free-willed by default. But including a 'command spell' would result in a commanded intelligent construct instead. And, of course, as with any intelligent minion, they could come to resent having the smarts but not the freedom of will to express themselves.

[Invader]

I'd have to agree with hunter as well that it's going to be difficult to give a RAW answer when you're taking rules from 3 different systems.

For what is worth I've never heard of a Warforged being created outside of a creation forge which I would imagine are prohibitively expensive.

[Coidzor]

My question is, how bad is it balance-wise, DMGs-thrown-at-head-wise, to have a player who can build a construct with class levels?
Additionally, would it be RAW to say that Warforged are created free-willed? Wouldn't free-will be considered one of their racial traits?

Bad. Being able to duplicate party members or even combine them for gold is very powerful. All the more so if, say, you can combine the levels of a few different level 10 characters to get a beatstick servitor that has enough levels to go into epic.

Especially if Incarnate Construct and Animate Dread Warrior are on the table, as this would sidestep the issue of Warforged having free-will.


So no, giving it intelligence wasn't the issue, weather it had free will by default just for being a Warforged was my question. My apologies for any confusion.

Yes, they're warforged. Going by the sources they're from, they're initially generally obedient and well-disposed towards their creators/teachers. Creating them with class levels departs from their basis fairly severely though, making it difficult to say what's going on.

[unseenmage]

Creating them with class levels departs from their basis fairly severely though, making it difficult to say what's going on.

Could you explain what you mean by that in more deatail please?

[Coidzor]

Could you explain what you mean by that in more deatail please?

When they were introduced as part of Eberron, as far as I can recall, they came out as, essentially, somewhere between children and teenagers and very rapidly learned and matured. They were given training between 6 months to a year or two, IIRC, and then became level 1 fighters or wizards or what have you. They were treated as property and early on generally accepted this, but they definitely have free will even if in the setting description of Eberron they're still coming to terms with being in control of their own destinies after having been created as property to fight a war which is over and spent most of their existence in that state of battle slavery.

Creating them with advanced knowledge and training (class levels) means you're no longer creating tabula rasa, or at least they're less blank slate than they would have been.

They're also supposed to only be capable of being created with pseudo-artifact(?) Creation Forges, which are more plot than RAW as I recall.

[unseenmage]

When they were introduced as part of Eberron, as far as I can recall, they came out as, essentially, somewhere between children and teenagers and very rapidly learned and matured. They were given training between 6 months to a year or two, IIRC, and then became level 1 fighters or wizards or what have you. They were treated as property and early on generally accepted this, but they definitely have free will even if in the setting description of Eberron they're still coming to terms with being in control of their own destinies after having been created as property to fight a war which is over and spent most of their existence in that state of battle slavery.

Creating them with advanced knowledge and training (class levels) means you're no longer creating tabula rasa, or at least they're less blank slate than they would have been.

They're also supposed to only be capable of being created with pseudo-artifact(?) Creation Forges, which are more plot than RAW as I recall.

I knew about the Creation Forges but their blank slate-like 'childhood' is news to me. Thanks for that.

A creation forge that outputs Warforged ad infinitum, even one that's less
Magic Trap and more an animated assembly line, would be in the Epic amounts of gp to create so that it's already a faux artifact.

Okay, new idea, what if a player and DM wanted to come to some sort of agreement about how the player could tinker up a Warforged.

If you were the DM what would your requisites be?
Within the confines of the Custom Magic Item Rules and the idea that you can treat constructs as magic items?

[Shining Wrath]

So for a Hordificer I'm currently playing I'm admixing 3.0, 3.5, and just a dash of PF. Doing this I found something kinda awkward.

I can build a warforged.

The PF rules for creating new constructs lists a how-to for pricing constructs based on CR. It doesn't say Golems, it says constructs. And as Warforged are constructs I could potentially use these rules to build them.
Even better, adding class levels to a warforged just changes their CR as far as the rules are concerned.
One assumes that just like when you're infusing spells, feats, or class abilities into an item at least one of the creators must actually have the class levels you wish to infuse.

My question is, how bad is it balance-wise, DMGs-thrown-at-head-wise, to have a player who can build a construct with class levels?
Additionally, would it be RAW to say that Warforged are created free-willed? Wouldn't free-will be considered one of their racial traits?

Technically speaking, a WF is a Living Construct, not just a Construct. That's where the free will comes from and the Constitution score and so on. I don't recall if PF includes Living Construct as a subtype.

In Eberron, making a Warforged was a hugely difficult (and profitable!) enterprise for House Cannith, requiring someone with the Mark of Making and a Creation Forge. You need vast wealth to build one of those.

Having built one and created your Warforged, (s)he starts as a more or less blank slate, albeit with personality and a fingerprint like mark called the ghulra. You have to train them into their class at level 1.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read these:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870786/Mechonomicon

and this, that I wrote:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Lord Vukodlak]

Pathfinder doesn't have a living construct it does have the half-construct subtype.
Half-constructs gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and effects that cause either exhaustion or fatigue.

Half-constructs cannot be raised or resurrected.

Half-constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from one of these activities. This means that a half-construct can drink potions to benefit from their effects and can sleep in order to regain spells, but neither of these activities is required for the construct to survive or stay in good health.

Compared to to the traits that a true blue warforged gets is rather weak

[unseenmage]

Have you read these:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...6/Mechonomicon

and this, that I wrote:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Je09i8KWw/edit

Yes, I have read both of those. But, unless I missed something, neither describes building warforged from scratch.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yes, I have read both of those. But, unless I missed something, neither describes building warforged from scratch.

You can't build a warforged that's simply how it is. Warforged require an artifact device and a whole team of teachers and instructors to make them suitable for combat. There isn't any magic binding them to there creator but being born children makes them impressionable.

PC's aren't supposed to make warforged period

Just take the leadership feat have a warforged cohort and tell everyone you built him. Maybe all the followers could also be low level warforged too.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, I have read both of those. But, unless I missed something, neither describes building warforged from scratch.

Correct, because there are no rules for that. It's not something PCs are supposed to be able to do.

You can definitely make loads of types of constructs with sentience and skills... but not that can learn class levels.

[unseenmage]

You can't build a warforged that's simply how it is. Warforged require an artifact device and a whole team of teachers and instructors to make them suitable for combat. There isn't any magic binding them to there creator but being born children makes them impressionable.

PC's aren't supposed to make warforged period

Just take the leadership feat have a warforged cohort and tell everyone you built him. Maybe all the followers could also be low level warforged too.

Thank you for your input but that is exactly not helpful.

I understand that warforged were never statted up for player use, that doesn't mean I'm still not curious as to the chance of making them as withing the rules of 3.5 as possible.

Esp. as my DM and I are considering making this a cornerstone event in the Forgotten Realms. The god of artifice and craftsmen,Gond, gets the upper hand again and this time, instead of gunpowder, he sneaks Warforged into the Realms.

My character, a gestalt Gnome Artificer/Cleric of Gond is an experimenter. He understands that he can create things with his god's blessing. That sometimes that blessing can give his creations sentience or additional superpowers.

The DM thinks the idea is great too. He'd love to see me pull it off. It would give him an excuse to let Gond show his power in the gameworld.

I am somewhat distraught at what appears to be the kneejerk, 'No you cant' do that.', reaction this topic has elicited. I was under the impression that this was the place to ask rules related questions and discuss optimization options. My bad.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Thank you for your input but that is exactly not helpful.

I understand that warforged were never statted up for player use, that doesn't mean I'm still not curious as to the chance of making them as withing the rules of 3.5 as possible.

Esp. as my DM and I are considering making this a cornerstone event in the Forgotten Realms. The god of artifice and craftsmen,Gond, gets the upper hand again and this time, instead of gunpowder, he sneaks Warforged into the Realms.

My character, a gestalt Gnome Artificer/Cleric of Gond is an experimenter. He understands that he can create things with his god's blessing. That sometimes that blessing can give his creations sentience or additional superpowers.

The DM thinks the idea is great too. He'd love to see me pull it off. It would give him an excuse to let Gond show his power in the gameworld.

I am somewhat distraught at what appears to be the kneejerk, 'No you cant' do that.', reaction this topic has elicited. I was under the impression that this was the place to ask rules related questions and discuss optimization options. My bad.
Your essentially asking for the rules to cheaply use this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm) at a very low cost. You might as well be asking to make elves or make dwarves. Warforged were a powerful war assist because even the most basic would have the elite array and a PC class making them far above rank and file warriors.


I understand that warforged were never statted up for player use, that doesn't mean I'm still not curious as to the chance of making them as within the rules of 3.5 as possible.
You ask this question and then get angry when the answer is no you can't within the rules of 3.5. There is no what if, or maybe its a flat-out no. If you want to make warforge you won't be doing it using any of the normal crafting rules.

Warforged are built using a damn artifact and your asking how do you duplicate an artifact?

If its supposed to be a corner stone event to the campaign then build it around gathering all the necessary McGuffins required to construct the forge. Rather then the actual rules for how do you make a warforged. It shouldn't be a project you throw gold at and make it work.

[Gildedragon]

You could travel around the planes until you hit eberron, kidnap merrix d'cannith and his secret creation forge.

The implications of bringing merrix into Faerun and subsequent mess that erupts from his tech and expertise could be a campaign in and of itself.

[unseenmage]

You ask this question and then get angry when the answer is no you can't within the rules of 3.5. There is no what if, or maybe its a flat-out no. If you want to make warforge you won't be doing it using any of the normal crafting rules.

Warforged are built using a damn artifact and your asking how do you duplicate an artifact?

If its supposed to be a corner stone event to the campaign then build it around gathering all the necessary McGuffins required to construct the forge. Rather then the actual rules for how do you make a warforged. It shouldn't be a project you throw gold at and make it work.

Firstly, I'm not angry. Just disappointed. My apologies if I've offended you.

Secondly, D&D 3.5 is a game wherein the characters regularly rewrite reality to suit their own ends. This is including and up to creating "artifacts". An appropriately epic item is an "artifact" by virtue of it's power, it's price, and it's impact on the gameworld. "Artifacts" are craft-able.

Third, I already found a method to create them using the normal rules. The normal progression of the rules even, if one chose to view PF in that light.
My goal here is to mitigate the obvious absurdity of simply multiplying 1 by 1 by 500gp to animate a Warforged then adding 50gp for the body and getting a level 1 Warforged Fighter as the result. Barring the debate on the difference between living construct and construct that would be RAW legal and RAI silly IMHO.

And really I heartily thank the other contributors to the thread as they've helped my solidify the concept of what a freshly formed Warforged actually is. Thanks guys. You've been helpful.


While typing this though, it occured to me that when building custom items one is supposed to compare the goal item to it's closest existing analogue and price accordingly. What's the cheapest intelligent, free willed, childlike sentience construct a PC can make? Or, barring that, what's the cheapest intelligent construct?

[Gildedragon]

Secondly, D&D 3.5 is a game wherein the characters regularly rewrite reality to suit their own ends. This is including and up to creating "artifacts". An appropriately epic item is an "artifact" by virtue of it's power, it's price, and it's impact on the gameworld. "Artifacts" are craft-able.
Some marked exceptions are craftable; but as a general rule they are explicitly not craftable. Some epic items are indeed more powerful than artifacts, but they do not transcend the qualitative difference between the two types of objects.



Third, I already found a method to create them using the normal rules. The normal progression of the rules even, if one chose to view PF in that light.
My goal here is to mitigate the obvious absurdity of simply multiplying 1 by 1 by 500gp to animate a Warforged then adding 50gp for the body and getting a level 1 Warforged Fighter as the result. Barring the debate on the difference between living construct and construct that would be RAW legal and RAI silly IMHO.

By normal rules: no you have not found a way to craft a warforged. You mix and match rules across (very similar) systems. It works in PF because PF doesn't have warforged.



While typing this though, it occured to me that when building custom items one is supposed to compare the goal item to it's closest existing analogue and price accordingly. What's the cheapest intelligent, free willed, childlike sentience construct a PC can make? Or, barring that, what's the cheapest intelligent construct?

For the first: it'd be the cost of an item of Origin of the Species.
The second: it'd be 8000XP and 0gp for an object animated with Animate Object + Permanency + Awaken Construct

[Gavinfoxx]

No, there aren't rules for making artifacts, generally.

And lots of magic items are better than artifacts!

Artifacts aren't the most useful or powerful magic items... they are the items that tend to most break the rules about how magic is supposed to work.

What makes them artifacts is how weird and different they are, not anything else.

[Psyren]

Getting Warforged into Faerun isn't actually that hard. In Toril's past, the ancient empire of Raumathar (power-wise, on par with Netheril, Narfell, Cormanthyr etc.) was famous for creating armies of constructs - some of which were intelligent - to soldier alongside their battlemagi. Though Narfell and Raumathar destroyed each other long ago, caches of their creations remain hidden to this day - such as the Bronze Battletower in the region of Gauros (LEoF 84). It would be a simple matter to adapt Warforged stats onto these faceless legions, giving them a place in Faerun history.

Your artificer could therefore easily have a much more plausible quest in mind - rather than creating Warforged from scratch, s/he could instead be seeking to reactivate one.

[unseenmage]

For the first: it'd be the cost of an item of Origin of the Species.
The second: it'd be 8000XP and 0gp for an object animated with Animate Object + Permanency + Awaken Construct

Perhaps a comparison of other sentient constructs would be more appropriate?
Homunculus is the cheapest sentient construct that comes to mine.



Getting Warforged into Faerun isn't actually that hard. In Toril's past, the ancient empire of Raumathar (power-wise, on par with Netheril, Narfell, Cormanthyr etc.) was famous for creating armies of constructs - some of which were intelligent - to soldier alongside their battlemagi. Though Narfell and Raumathar destroyed each other long ago, caches of their creations remain hidden to this day - such as the Bronze Battletower in the region of Gauros (LEoF 84). It would be a simple matter to adapt Warforged stats onto these faceless legions, giving them a place in Faerun history.

Your artificer could therefore easily have a much more plausible quest in mind - rather than creating Warforged from scratch, s/he could instead be seeking to reactivate one.

I was unaware of this lore, thank you. Though I'm having trouble finding any detailed info on it beyond the chapter in LEoF.



Pathfinder doesn't have a living construct it does have the half-construct subtype.
Half-constructs gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and effects that cause either exhaustion or fatigue.

Half-constructs cannot be raised or resurrected.

Half-constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from one of these activities. This means that a half-construct can drink potions to benefit from their effects and can sleep in order to regain spells, but neither of these activities is required for the construct to survive or stay in good health.

Compared to to the traits that a true blue warforged gets is rather weak

I missed this the first time through the thread, my apologies.
This info intrigues me. I'll be reading up on them today.