PF/3.5e Rogue differences

[Yora]

When I was looking at the paizo forums recently, people seem to treat rogues as the weakest and most pointless class there is. I never really heard anything like that in all the years of D&D 3rd Edition. It rather seemed like the rogue is putting a bit too much of a punch compared to the other classes who are actually meant to be really heavy hitters.
And in PF rogues got more hit points, sneak attack against everything, and a lot more special abilities. Do I miss something that is seriously setting them back, or is that just the new current monk fad?

[Gavinfoxx]

They were severely weakened in comparison to other classes, due to hidden changes in the rule system. It isn't obvious looking at the Rogue class chassis itself; you need to look around at many changes for the problematic rules.

[Lhurgyof]

They were severely weakened in comparison to other classes, due to hidden changes in the rule system. It isn't obvious looking at the Rogue class chassis itself; you need to look around at many changes for the problematic rules.

Such as? I too am curious about this.

[Gavinfoxx]

Skill consolidation, changes to Grease and Balancing rules, the fact you can't sneak attack with splash weapons, the fact that anyone can trapfind, the fact that the best skill monkey is now a Bard, changes to skill DCs, changes to Tumble, etc. etc.

[Der_DWSage]

To add on to this, (And to pre-empt StreamofSky's normal vitriolic rant about Rogues in Pathfinder) there's a few other things.

-The 'Rogue Talents' are incredibly nice and flavorful, but are not all that powerful. On the whole, they're kind of weak, but they still make up the majority of the class features.

-Rogues are now 'merely' the best at finding traps...unless someone takes an ACF that grants Trapfinding. (However, I have less of a problem with this-it stops Rogue from being a one-level dip JUST so you get Trapfinding. I do believe it should have been a feat instead, however.)

-It's harder to sneak attack. There are no 'facing' rules, and you instead HAVE to be in the correct position to flank, or you need a way to deny their dexterity bonus. This is easier said than done, and is especially difficult with archery.

-Tumbling used to be a way for Rogues and other speedy types to nimbly get around the battlefield. Now, Tumble is opposed by CMD-and most opponents with CR high enough to survive a good backstab or two are probably going to get that attack of opportunity on Rogues regardless.

-They're not the skillmonkey they once were. They're still a skillmonkey, but not the skillmonkey, due to Bards getting bonuses on everything, everyone being able to get more skill points due to favored class bonuses, the Alchemist stepping on their toes with being an intelligence-based caster with more skill points than average, and the skill tree condensing.

-Feinting is still borked, in that it takes a standard or move action to use, when someone with two-weapon fighting would only really benefit from a swift action.

I don't think I missed anything that others haven't already gone over, but I'm sure someone can find something I missed.

[gr8artist]

To pose a rebuttal, I'll add my two cents.
I've asked similar questions, and the rules that the others mention sort of tweak game balance in a new direction.
For starters, Bleeding Attack is the most amazing rogue talent ever. Also, ninja tricks - vanishing trick. Yep, invisibility as a swift action means sneak attack every round easy.
But...
You now have to work for your tumble successes. It's not a DC 15 effortless check, there's a high difficulty. This also means that Combat Reflexes (a fun feat for rogues) got better. (Higher chance to provoke + more AoO/round = win)
Skill consolidation means that other classes can cross-class into rogue-themed-stuff easier, especially with PF's cross-class skill rule (losing only a +3 untyped bonus). But it also means that the rogue doesn't have to invest 5 of his 8 skill points just to be a scout. With hide/MS rolled together and Listen/Spot/Search rolled together, the rogue can do the same job for a fraction of the cost. Sure, others can do it almost as good (occasionally better), but now you've got ranks for UMD, Knowledge checks, Linguistics (busted), Spellcraft, or whatever else you want.
I find that the main difference, is that people who are used to a certain role/gameplay style for their rogues feel that they got nerfed in PF, because now that role is more common to more classes (as opposed to rogue-specific). But people who like the IDEA of a rogue more than the GAMEPLAY of a rogue will like PF a lot more, and they get some cool new tricks to be thankful for.

I DM'd a year-long campaign with two rogue-type characters... one alchemist (vivisectionist) and one rogue/master-thrower. They both dealt immense amounts of damage, passed nearly every acrobatics check they tried, and kicked my BBEG's all over the place. This became especially true when we gained access to greater invisibility.

The rogue is a fine class, filling a slightly different, but equally fun role.
Paladins are OP, though.

Edit: and if anyone tells you that stealth sucks now, because the wizard can cast invis and suddenly be better than the rogue, ask them politely why the wizard would cast the spell on himself with the rogue standing right there.

[Saph]

PF Rogues are pretty much a straight upgrade from 3.5 ones in every way. The only reason you'd choose the 3.5 rogue is if you were heavily dependent on a few very specific 3.5 tricks.

[NinjaInTheRye]

The "hidden issues" tend to boil down to this:

Most martial classes in PF gained bonuses to hit/dmg (Weapon Training for the Fighter, Reckless Abandon for the Barb, Smite and/or Divine Bond for the Paladin, Instant Enemy for the Ranger). Monster ACs and HP went up in order to compensate.

Since, the Rogue gained no bonus to hit, so they hit less and do less damage compared to other PF classes than a Rogue built in 3.5 would have relative to other 3.5 classes, they lost some tricks to trigger sneak attack/deny dex/target touch ac. There is a buff to Rogues in that undead and constructs are now vulnerable to sneak attack.

Also certain archetypes basically give away the Rogue's signature class features to other classes, making them better at filling the "Rogue" role than the actual Rogue.

[Yora]

Rogues actually were one of the first things about PF that kept me from using the game for a very long time. They made Sneak Attack against everything and increased Hit Dice to d8 and added a bunch of Rogue Talents at early levels, so "Oh great, now they made the thief completely into a Dex-Fighter".
That people call the rogue weak and base that mostly on the lack of punching power actually pleases me greatly.
That archetypes of other classes are poaching on the rogues territory is unfortunate, but not an actual problem if you aren't using archetypes at all.

[137beth]

The rogue was made more powerful in PF. It gains more hit-points and abilities. Skill point consolidation means it can cover MORE skills.

On the flip side, some classes (notably the paladin) were buffed more than the rogue. Is that a problem? It depends entirely on the level of power you prefer. But it makes it a great target for whiners:smallsmile:

[Yora]

Minor Magic and Major Magic need to be outright banned, I think. But the rest of the rogue talents are really quite neat without adding much power or new rules. Stealth at full speed, Acrobatics at full speed, sneak attack even non-flat footed enemies during suprise rounds, disable traps in half the time. I like those.

[Der_DWSage]

...I'm now horribly curious. Why do you say Minor/Major magic needs to be banned? I thought it was an interesting way of giving the Rogue minor magic tricks, personally-especially seeing as how you need to be a minimum of 10th level to get first level spells.

[Yora]

Rogues are not spellcasters. There are already way more than enough spellcasters in the game, with rogues, fighters, and barbarians pretty much the only ones that have no magic. Giving rogues spells really is completely unneccessary.

[Daftendirekt]

Also, the ninja is just straight up better than the rogue. Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade alone make sure of that, regardless of anything else. Since ninjas can take rogue talents no problem, they get the best part of the rogue as well as their upgraded goodies.

[Renegade Paladin]

-It's harder to sneak attack. There are no 'facing' rules, and you instead HAVE to be in the correct position to flank, or you need a way to deny their dexterity bonus. This is easier said than done, and is especially difficult with archery.
... You just described all of 3rd edition. The conditions allowing sneak attack are exactly the same in Pathfinder as they were in 3.5; denied Dexterity bonus to AC or flanked. I suppose Pathfinder technically lacks the Telling Blow feat, but I'd have no problem importing it.

I didn't buy the weakened rogue argument when it was first posited, and I still don't. The rogue is strictly better in Pathfinder than he was in 3.5, and the fact that the other classes aren't horribly crippled in the skill department doesn't detract from that in the least. The change to Tumble just means that the rogue needs to max it instead of leaving off at seven or eight ranks; oh woe is him. It's not like he effectively has three more whole skills after the Stealth/Perception consolidations anyway. :smallsigh: Several of the rogue talents are quite good; I've had great success with trap spotter and surprise attack. The point of the rogue isn't to be a combat beatstick anyway, so the fact that other classes are better at something that isn't his job is neither surprising nor relevant.

The only thing brought up here that isn't the usual is the ninja being better than the rogue, and I allow it is - at killing things. Which is where we come back to that not being the rogue's primary job. The ninja doesn't have trapfinding or evasion, instead trading them out for poison use and a ki pool. The ninja trades out utility and survivability for being marginally better at killing things if he can get his hands on some poison and the ability to power his other class features. And Light Steps later on, but frankly a rogue that can't make that Jump check isn't worth his character sheet. :smalltongue: Rogues can get a ki pool and ninja tricks as rogue talents anyway if that's so concerning. Ki Pool and Vanishing Trick as rogue talents. As long as the rogue has a positive Wisdom modifier, problem solved if you want it to be.

But frankly if that's what I want, I'll play a ninja. The only ninja trick I'd be likely to poach as a rogue is Undetected Sabotage. :smallwink: The rogue has a huge toolbox at his disposal; unless your campaign is simply a string of combat encounters, with no traps, no call for subterfuge, and very little sneaking about, the rogue will have things he can do well, and at the end of the day that's what matters. And a heaping helping of d6s in damage on the side every now and then never hurt anything except what you wanted dead anyway. :smallcool: