How cheesy is my party?

[white lancer]

*Note: I realize there are a lot of extremely cheesy builds out there that put these ones to shame. I'm not really looking for comparisons.*

So, I recently rejoined a D&D game that I had been a part of 5-6 years ago and I rebuilt my character from the ground up using what little I could remember of my character (Half-elf TWF Ranger). We were level 19 (now 20), and I went Ranger/Swordsage and rolled for stats, winding up with this:

STR: 16 (22 temp)
DEX: 15 (21 temp)
CON: 20
INT: 14
WIS: 20 (26 temp)
CHA: 10

Seems like a great ability set, but the problem is that it's the lowest stat block in the group. There's one other character in the same ballpark:

STR: 16 (18 temp)
DEX: 14
CON: 18 (24 temp)
INT: 14
WIS: 20 (28 temp)
CHA: 14 (18 temp)

You'll note that despite him not having a modifier below +2 (in fact, out of four characters, only two scores fall below a +2 modifier), he's only 1 modifier ahead of me unmodified. Of course, he's also a Cleric, so it's not exactly like we're on equal footing. Where things get a little bit crazy is with the next guy, a human Rogue 8/Duelist 10/Swordsage 1/something else 1:

STR: 15 (19 temp)
DEX: 21 (29 temp)
CON: 22
INT: 24 (32 temp)
WIS: 14
CHA: 18

My DM did say this guy read a tome that boosted his Constitution, so that at least partially explains his stats, but there's still gotta be something else because otherwise, that stat grouping is straight-up impossible even with the 5 ability score increases we've had. Which brings us to the last guy, a half-dragon, half-skarn Dragon Shaman 19:

STR: 34 (40! temp)
DEX: 13
CON: 28 (32 temp)
INT: 20
WIS: 16
CHA: 28 (32 temp)

This guy is the one that basically makes me feel unnecessary in the group, because who needs a decent melee fighter when you can have one with 40 freaking strength? He also has more than twice my hit points (despite 1d8+5 each level) and an AC that I can't even hit without a natural 20. When I asked him how he got such insane stats, he said something about a draconic progression of some kind (I'm not sure where the rules for that would be).

The end result of this is that while my DM is generally pretty good about putting us in situations where we all get to do stuff, I get frustrated by how much more that last character in particular can do without even trying. In the past in this game, we've had a couple of big tournament arcs that have been a lot of fun, but I've asked my DM not to run them anymore because my character would struggle even to land a hit against these guys. The most frustrating thing is that there really shouldn't be an issue tier-wise--obviously, the Cleric should outshine me easily (even though he's actually referred to my character as overpowered several times--lol), but against a Dragon Shaman and a Rogue/Duelist I shouldn't really have this much of a problem.

So I'm bringing this to you, playgrounders! I'm not a hardcore optimizer in the least bit, so I would be really interested to see someone try to duplicate these builds (especially the last one), just to see if it's even possible and exactly how cheesy they are. I'm also looking for tips on how to deal with this--I'm still mostly enjoying the game, and I want to continue playing it, but the idea of not even being able to land a hit on my teammates (despite only one of them focusing on AC) is very frustrating and it means that I pretty much always get hit by whatever we face in combat.

[graymachine]

Not looking to crunch numbers at the moment, but I'm not seeing anything particularly outstanding in your party members' stats. If anything, they are bizarrely spread out; unfocused as they are, this is still easily in the WBL range of a 19-20th level character. The last one looks like something working towards optimization.

A 20th level character should have a 34 (18 +5[levels] +5[tome/wish] +6 [item]) in their primary ability score as a base. This isn't taking into account other basic ways of increasing stats, such as racial modifiers, template modifiers, size modifiers, and age modifiers. We haven't even gotten into anything cheesy yet. Therefore your Dragon Shaman friend is right on par with a basic primary ability score. Nothing about the level breakdowns I see are very significant either.

[Alleran]

So I'm bringing this to you, playgrounders! I'm not a hardcore optimizer in the least bit, so I would be really interested to see someone try to duplicate these builds (especially the last one), just to see if it's even possible and exactly how cheesy they are.
On a scale of kiloTippys? Significantly less than one.

It's easy to get STR 34 for that Dragon Shaman:

STR 18, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement = STR 34.

Done. Assuming the draconic progression involves some sort of half-dragon template or similar:

STR 15, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement, +8 racial = STR 34.

Again, not hard to do at all. STR 34 is peanuts when a level 20 wizard should be rocking no less than an INT score in the mid-30s.

[Chronos]

The bigger problem is that he's not level 19 (or 20). Half-Dragon has a level adjustment of +3, meaning that a half-dragon with 19 class levels should be in a level 22 party, not in a level 19 party. It's even worse if he also has some levels in his "draconic progression", whatever that is (dragon racial hit dice?).

Now, if this group has been playing together for a while, they presumably have some sort of agreement about such things. Maybe the DM is reducing level adjustments, or something. But if that's the case, then you should probably find out about it, and take advantage of the same (or comparable) benefits for your own character.

[white lancer]

Wow, it seems I may be even farther behind in the realm of optimization than I thought. One thing I should clarify is that the scores I posted above are the base scores, without items, while the "temp" score (a misleading name, I realize) is what the characters are walking around with when their enhancement modifiers are added in (not counting spells or anything like that).

I feel like I must be missing some major way to add on stats, if a 34 and two 28s on the same character (before items) are peanuts. Taking into account that the rolling system inherently tends toward unbalanced characters, I'm still a bit baffled by those numbers, as even if he rolled four 18s for STR, CON, INT, and CHA, that leaves him with 38 ability score ranks that have to come from somewhere other than equipment, and I highly doubt my DM was simply throwing tomes/wishes at him. It's not so much the single score that's crazy as several very strong scores on one character.

And he apparently did some sort of level adjustment buyback system and has now virtually caught up to the rest of the party in pure levels. I think my DM now realizes allowing this was something of a mistake, especially when his stats already dwarf the rest of the party's.

[graymachine]

Ah, 'temp' makes more sense now; I assumed it meant with buffs. That makes these scores more respectable, but still they're not outside the range of what they should be. If there is buyback in play you need to get some templates, at least, to make yourself more effective. Are you looking to rebuild your character? If so, I don't have much experience with TWF, but we can take a stab at it. There are also some TWF guides floating around the Playground.

Aside: Are custom magic items available? If so, you can squeeze out some extra stat boosts with items providing different bonus types, such as divine/profane.

[white lancer]

Well, it's good to know that I'm not completely crazy and that the scores are at least respectable. :P They still seem a little outrageous to mr. Bear with me for a second: if a Wizard of the same level should have his INT (the only stat he really needs to increase, as I understand it) in the mid-30s as a minimum target, what does it say about a character who not only exceeds that target with his primary stat (STR 40), but also approaches that target with two other stats (CON and CHA 32)? Am I crazy, or is that crazy?

I'm not looking to rebuild my character entirely--that took way too long the first time, and I honestly am not too confident about being able to make a TWF build all that much more effective than mine already is without dipping into extreme levels of cheese. I went the Lightning Maces route with some incredibly useful Tiger Claw maneuvers mixed in (seriously, I was amazed how well Ranger and Swordsage synched up), and my turns already take forever because of all the attacks I have. I'd definitely appreciate some tips on how to improve the character without rebuilding it completely, however, as I realize my build is far from optimal. Priority #1, I'm guessing, has to be an increase in Strength, since that helps both with attack and damage. I've already decided I probably need to ditch the Belt of Battle and wear the Belt of Giant's Strength full-time--as cool as the BoB is, I rarely wind up using it because my turns already take forever and running around with 16 Strength just isn't going to cut it. Also realizing in retrospect that more of my ability score increases should have been going to Strength rather than Wisdom.

I'm not entirely without advantages in this game. My saves are the highest in the party, and since I was rebuilding at level 19 I got to go the 'Magic Mart' route and pick up some really useful items the rest of the party doesn't have, like Mind Blank and permanent Freedom of Movement. Some of my items are still pretty useless, though. And yeah, custom items are allowed--I know there's at least one +8 ability item in the mix above.

[tyckspoon]

Strength and Con are the easiest stats to raise with templates and racial choices- a Half-Dragon Skarn is good for +10 Strength and +2 Con from that alone (and yes, if buyback was in play, the rest of you should get some opportunities to get LA-free templates to equalize that.) Mental stats are harder to come by, and Int is notoriously hard to get without sucking down hideous amounts of LA.

Re: Your Belt:
You can combine items. Per the DMG, the less expensive property on the item costs an additional 50%. Per Magic Item Compendium, which I presume you are using since you have a Belt of Battle, you can add 'common' properties such as basic stat boosts, saves, and AC bonuses, onto any suitable item at no additional fee. So take a pencil and change 'Belt of Battle' and 'Belt of Strength +6' into 'Belt of Battle +6 Strength.'

[Alleran]

Bear with me for a second: if a Wizard of the same level should have his INT (the only stat he really needs to increase, as I understand it) in the mid-30s as a minimum target, what does it say about a character who not only exceeds that target with his primary stat (STR 40), but also approaches that target with two other stats (CON and CHA 32)? Am I crazy, or is that crazy?
Mid-30s is a minimum target (18 + 5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement, +2 racial if you can swing it), remember. Put a smidgen of effort into it, and you're 40+ all day every day.

To put ability scores into perspective, what a level 20 spell-stitched dry lich [evolved undead x5] sorcerer in a campaign of mine that finished a year or two back (played through Savage Tide, wound up becoming Prince of Demons, and before the final adventure he parked himself in a fast-flowing time demiplane he created for, well, quite a while) had by the end in his CHA score:

CHA 18 + 2 (magic-blooded) + 2 (Draconic; LA buy-off) + 2 (unseelie fey) + 2 (dry lich) + 10 (evolved undead) + 5 (level) + 5 (inherent) + 8 (enhancement; permanent Su Extract Gift) + 8 (artifact; Halruuan Elixir) + 4 (profane, Malcanthet's Kiss) = 66 CHA

That's before any buffs or items. See what I mean on a mid-30s score being entry-level? Fast-flowing time demiplanes and evolved undead template abuse was in very high optimisation territory for that particular group of players. And this is still nowhere near what some of the better optimisers around here could do if they were of a mind. You don't even need to be a lich for evolved undead. Necropolitan is all you need.


My saves are the highest in the party, and since I was rebuilding at level 19 I got to go the 'Magic Mart' route and pick up some really useful items the rest of the party doesn't have, like Mind Blank and permanent Freedom of Movement. Some of my items are still pretty useless, though. And yeah, custom items are allowed--I know there's at least one +8 ability item in the mix above.
I'd recommend looking into the list of essential magic items found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). Definitely make sure you have everything you need from all categories there if possible.

[white lancer]

Wow, I guess I'm only scratching the surface of what heavy optimization can do, haha. I was under the impression that it was a lot easier to buff a single stat that two or three (since you only get 5 level ability increases, it's unlikely that your DM is just going to toss tomes at you for all your scores, and most races etc. aren't going to bump all of the ones you want significantly), which is what concerned me, but I could simply be wrong about that. Anyone got some good template recommendations? I'd prefer not to have too many because I wouldn't want to surpass his LA (which is at least +3; the draconic progression probably adds something as well, but I don't know where he found that).


Re: Your Belt:
You can combine items. Per the DMG, the less expensive property on the item costs an additional 50%. Per Magic Item Compendium, which I presume you are using since you have a Belt of Battle, you can add 'common' properties such as basic stat boosts, saves, and AC bonuses, onto any suitable item at no additional fee. So take a pencil and change 'Belt of Battle' and 'Belt of Strength +6' into 'Belt of Battle +6 Strength.'

That's...actually enormously helpful. I could probably do that with some of my other item slots as well.


I'd recommend looking into the list of essential magic items found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). Definitely make sure you have everything you need from all categories there if possible.

I actually used that list pretty extensively when I was first equipping! Mostly because I had zero clue what sort of items a high-level d&d character should have. That's how I ended up with items like Third Eye Conceal.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to know about how cheesy your party is, you should pay attention to 'what things they do', and 'how they push their will onto the world', not 'how high their ability scores are'. Read this, to calibrate yourself:

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

[centeotl]

If you want to know about how cheesy your party is, you should pay attention to 'what things they do', and 'how they push their will onto the world', not 'how high their ability scores are'. Read this, to calibrate yourself:

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

Is there anything like this that looks at epic play? I've always wondered how 21+ games are feasible...

[Gavinfoxx]

Is there anything like this that looks at epic play? I've always wondered how 21+ games are feasible...

The short of it is, they aren't, if you allow epic spellcasting.

[Sactheminions]

You have a level 20 Cleric in the party and you're concerned that the Dragon Shaman is too strong because he has a 40 strength with items? Everybody's game is different, but what is the Cleric doing? If he's healing people, then I understand, but nobody casts healing spells anymore do they?