CR 13 creature drops a 72k gp +4 Holy Greatsword?

[ksbsnowowl]

So I'm looking at having my PC's attempting a rescue mission against the Unseelie Court. In my game the Unseelie Court is composed of Evil Eladrin with the Shadow Creature template; the Seelie Court is composed of Good Eladrin with the Saint template.

Anyway, I was possibly looking at having a Good Ghaele accompany the PC's for this one mission, because it will be a tough one. Whether the PC's fight an evil version of a Ghaele, or their new companion dies (likely, as a CR 13 creature with only 65 hp's), such a creature is rocking a +4 Holy Greatsword (or a +4 something else Greatsword, in the case of the evil one).

That's a 72,000 gp weapon! For a somewhat fragile CR 13 creature.

The average treasure for a CR 13 encounter is 13,000 gp. Even if we are talking NPC wealth, that's only 35,000 for a CR 13 NPC.

Thoughts on this oddity?

[mattie_p]

Why would you do this?

[Snowbluff]

Monster rules for equipment are weird. The reason why Marilith don't wear clothing is because they can literally only teleport just enough weight to be able to carry their swords.

I would change the properties of the weapon. Maybe change the +3 to +2.

[ksbsnowowl]

Why would you do this?

Why would I do what? Have my PC's face off against the Unseelie Court? Because they kidnapped a former party member turned NPC. The original blackmailed MacGuffin quest failed, so their only remedy to save him is a rescue mission. (The rescue mission was not the original intent or path I had planned for the campaign, but if they want to try it, I won't stop them.)

[CaladanMoonblad]

A Ghaele can be advanced up to 30HD.

Feel free to turn that +4 holy sword into a +1 holy sword if it bothers you that much, but also feel free to add a Geas to any noncelestial that requires them to return the weapon to the Seelie Court if you're afraid of them ganking your NPC (or profiting by shoving him in front of a bus). Most players interacting with a Ghaele are using Planar Ally (Summon Monster IX usually stops at CR 12).

The Celestial Armies seem to use Ghaeles and Archons as elite soldiers, and not the front line infantry.

[ksbsnowowl]

To clarify, this is not occurring in a normal D&D cosmology at all. It is a Norse Viking setting, with the Nine Worlds. Because there isn't a whole lot of historical info on the Vanir, I've modeled them after the Seelie and Unseelie courts.

I could instead use a Fierre from the BoED, which casts as a 12th level cleric, is CR 10, and carries a +3 Greatsword. Thus the "problem" is averted on the "players getting a huge payday" side of things.

More than anything, divorced from the exact situation in my game, I'm just looking at the oddity of the extremely expensive weapon on a CR 13 creature. Granted, you would probably face celestial retribution, but a Planar Ally/Binding spell is a pretty cheap way to pick up a +4 Holy Greatsword...

[mattie_p]

Why would I do what? Have my PC's face off against the Unseelie Court? Because they kidnapped a former party member turned NPC. The original blackmailed MacGuffin quest failed, so their only remedy to save him is a rescue mission. (The rescue mission was not the original intent or path I had planned for the campaign, but if they want to try it, I won't stop them.)

No, that's all cool. Why would you drop a +4 holy sword and give them such a huge payday? You say a CR 13 would be a huge challenge, which is why they are getting help in the form of a seelie fey. What are they, four characters of Level 10? 9?

That item is worth as much as about 1/2 of the total party WBL.

[ksbsnowowl]

No, that's all cool. Why would you drop a +4 holy sword and give them such a huge payday? You say a CR 13 would be a huge challenge, which is why they are getting help in the form of a seelie fey. What are they, four characters of Level 10? 9?

That item is worth as much as about 1/2 of the total party WBL.

Sorry to be unclear. A CR 13 evil Ghaele would not be much of a challenge. My party is 15th level and gestalt. They also happened to have just lost all their stuff (TPK in Niflheim; they will get True Resurrected, but ALL their equipment is gone). So, actually dropping a +4 Holy Greatsword wouldn't be too far out of line for them, as they need to replenish their wealth anyways, and the Barb//Beguiler uses a Greatsword.

However, the adventure will be tough because the BBEG that will be holding the kidnapped NPC is a Master of the Hunt (MM5, CR 22). It will be a VERY tough fight, though the action economy is vastly in the PC's favor, as I have three arcane casters among the four gestalt PC's, and I allow 3.0 Haste as a 5th level spell.

Still, a CR 22 creature probably with at least one Hound of the Hunt (CR 18) with him (and both of those will be Shadow Creatures, btw), will be a lot for them to handle, even if they get a lot of loot from lower level fey, etc, on the way to meet him. Thus why I was planning to give them a Good Eladrin ally (plus the fact the PC's only healer is a Druid; having a cleric around for this adventure might be beneficial).

[juicycaboose]

No, that's all cool. Why would you drop a +4 holy sword and give them such a huge payday? You say a CR 13 would be a huge challenge, which is why they are getting help in the form of a seelie fey. What are they, four characters of Level 10? 9?

That item is worth as much as about 1/2 of the total party WBL.

That's why he's asking for opinions on why the Ghaele as a CR13 creature has a sword worth 72k gp, he's not just throwing a +4 holy sword at them out of nowhere, it's part of the ghaele (or evil version of a ghaele)'s stats

[mattie_p]

Sorry to be unclear. A CR 13 evil Ghaele would not be much of a challenge. My party is 15th level and gestalt. They also happened to have just lost all their stuff (TPK in Niflheim; they will get True Resurrected, but ALL their equipment is gone). So, actually dropping a +4 Holy Greatsword wouldn't be too far out of line for them, as they need to replenish their wealth anyways, and the Barb//Beguiler uses a Greatsword.

However, the adventure will be tough because the BBEG that will be holding the kidnapped NPC is a Master of the Hunt (MM5, CR 22). It will be a VERY tough fight, though the action economy is vastly in the PC's favor, as I have three arcane casters among the four gestalt PC's, and I allow 3.0 Haste as a 5th level spell.

Still, a CR 22 creature probably with at least one Hound of the Hunt (CR 18) with him (and both of those will be Shadow Creatures, btw), will be a lot for them to handle, even if they get a lot of loot from lower level fey, etc, on the way to meet him. Thus why I was planning to give them a Good Eladrin ally (plus the fact the PC's only healer is a Druid; having a cleric around for this adventure might be beneficial).

OK, we have some more information now. So the Barb/beguiler is the only one to get treasure from the encounter? I'd suggest either have smaller items, one useful to everybody, as part of the treasure, or the other PCs will be a little upset - even if you are giving them treasures in the next encounter.

Basically, a TPK followed by a rez with no items is no fun. Why can't they just borrow items from the seelie court, and return them when they get back?

I really don't like the idea of dumping a single huge item that will only benefit one PC for this encounter. My suggestion would be to re-work it.

[Spuddles]

Giving your party a +4 holy sword honestly wouldn't upset balance that much. They'll kill things a little faster, and level a little quicker. You can boost the CR on brute mobs by +1 if you like- monstrous humanoids with a class level, animals with the elite array, fire giants instead of frost giants, etc.

If they vendor it, remember it only sells at half value, for 36k.

And your party should be dividing loot equitably- the person who gets the +4 holy sword should have to forsake the next 36,000 gp worth of loot they find.

[ksbsnowowl]

Giving your party a +4 holy sword honestly wouldn't upset balance that much. They'll kill things a little faster, and level a little quicker. You can boost the CR on brute mobs by +1 if you like- monstrous humanoids with a class level, animals with the elite array, fire giants instead of frost giants, etc.

If they vendor it, remember it only sells at half value, for 36k.

And your party should be dividing loot equitably- the person who gets the +4 holy sword should have to forsake the next 36,000 gp worth of loot they find.
They do divide things pretty evenly.

Again, in my specific situation, one of these weapons coming to the party wouldn't be a bad thing, and would actually be an appropriate boon. That doesn't change the fact it is quite odd for a CR 13 creature to have a 72,000 gp item as its standard equipment, plus get treasure beyond that.

[Spuddles]

They do divide things pretty evenly.

Again, in my specific situation, one of these weapons coming to the party wouldn't be a bad thing, and would actually be an appropriate boon. That doesn't change the fact it is quite odd for a CR 13 creature to have a 72,000 gp item as its standard equipment, plus get treasure beyond that.

All the angels have above average anything, given their CR. I think this was some sort of conscious metagame decision, where angels may be fewer but they're way more badass than their fiendish counterparts. Compare Solar to Balor, for instance.

[ksbsnowowl]

Touche`.

They fixed it a bit with the Tulani Eladrin from BoED. IIRC, their +4 Brilliant Energy Longswords are extensions of themselves, and they can make a new one each round as a move action or something (if it were to get sundered, etc).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If it's a Ghaele turned evil, maybe its sword was taken away, like what happens to a Jedi who turns to the dark side. It could of course forge/acquire a new one, but it wouldn't be as powerful as the one that was taken from it.

[ksbsnowowl]

If it's a Ghaele turned evil, maybe its sword was taken away, like what happens to a Jedi who turns to the dark side. It could of course forge/acquire a new one, but it wouldn't be as powerful as the one that was taken from it.

It's not a typical D&D Ghaele turned evil. It is Eladrin being used as the Seelie and Unseelie courts. A Seelie Ghaele has the Saint template, and an Unseelie Ghaele has the Shadow Creature template. The good and evil versions should mirror each other.

[Marnath]

Touche`.

They fixed it a bit with the Tulani Eladrin from BoED. IIRC, their +4 Brilliant Energy Longswords are extensions of themselves, and they can make a new one each round as a move action or something (if it were to get sundered, etc).

That's what I came in here to suggest you do for all of them, actually. Make the sword disappear when they die, or make it a masterwork weapon, the +4 holy is something that the character can imbue into it for as long as it is held as a free action.

[Malvanis]

A single weapon cannot destroy the campaign. Even though the creature is low on he he must have some other way to make up for it or it would not be such high cr. if the sword is too powerful, have an enemy disarm the character holding it and throw it off a bridge or something.

[Than]

It could always switch to it's alternate form before being defeated. Then it doesn't have to drop any loot as it will take everything melded into the globe back to it's home plane upon defeat.

Assuming your outsiders return to their plane to reform instead of just wink out of existence.

[ksbsnowowl]

Assuming your outsiders return to their plane to reform instead of just wink out of existence.

Why would they do either if they weren't summoned?

[TuggyNE]

Why would they do either if they weren't summoned?

Fiends reform once (actually) defeated, though it takes them a while (99 years for devils, I think).

Not sure if any other Outsiders do, however.

[Spuddles]

There's a table in Fiendish Codex 1 you can roll on for what a demon's death throes looks like.

[TuggyNE]

There's a table in Fiendish Codex 1 you can roll on for what a demon's death throes looks like.

How … gygaxian.

[Crake]

Fiends reform once (actually) defeated, though it takes them a while (99 years for devils, I think).

Not sure if any other Outsiders do, however.

I've always run it as all outsiders do, true resurrection is simply a fast forward for the process.

As for ghale and their greatswords, I've always run them as unwieldable by others, due to the nature of their existence (being described as incandescent +4 holy longswords, and the way they're depicted in the picture) similar to the tulani's