Familiar Questions

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm trying to improve my familiarity with familiars, so I'm going to ask a few questions that may be familiar to those familiar with familiars (using Pathfinder rules):

1) As familiars gain HD, do they also gain feats?

2) What about size advancement as per Monster Advancement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement)?

3) If the answer to the above is true and a caster were to take the Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar) feat and select an elemental, would the elemental advance along the size categories normally?

[Coidzor]

I'm trying to improve my familiarity with familiars, so I'm going to ask a few questions that may be familiar to those familiar with familiars (using Pathfinder rules):

1) As familiars gain HD, do they also gain feats?

2) What about size advancement as per Monster Advancement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement)?

3) If the answer to the above is true and a caster were to take the Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar) feat and select an elemental, would the elemental advance along the size categories normally?

Sadly, unlike psicrystals in 3.5, familiars do not gain HD in either 3.5 or PF, they have the number of HD they start out with and that's it. Everything that gains HD gets feats for it except for mindless creatures and anything else that has a specific exception. Also, sadly, psicrystals don't seem to possess HD at all in PF, oddly enough.

They do not gain size advancement.

No, for the same reason that animal companions in 3.5 and PF don't gain size increases using the advancing monster rules, they have a different progression.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Sadly, unlike psicrystals in 3.5, familiars do not gain HD in either 3.5 or PF, they have the number of HD they start out with and that's it. Everything that gains HD gets feats for it except for mindless creatures and anything else that has a specific exception. Also, sadly, psicrystals don't seem to possess HD at all in PF, oddly enough

Then why does this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-focus) exist?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then why does this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-focus) exist?

I'm not sure what you think that feat does, but it doesn't interact with the familiar's hit dice in any way. It gives the caster a minor boost on spells he casts on his familiar. That's it.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm not sure what you think that feat does, but it doesn't interact with the familiar's hit dice in any way. It gives the caster a minor boost on spells he casts on his familiar. That's it.

Right, but it can only be taken by a familiar. Which implies that familiars get feats.

[The Viscount]

Then why does this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-focus) exist?

Presumably it's an option for retraining? I don't know how retraining works in pathfinder. Familiars have a feat by virtue of their racial HD, so this is likely an alternative option for that racial feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Right, but it can only be taken by a familiar. Which implies that familiars get feats.

You're misinterpreting something here.

The prerequisite isn't that you be a familiar but that you have the familiar class feature.

Likewise, in the familiars overview, when it gives a list of feats for familiars, it means those feats, when taken by the caster, improve how your familiar interacts with you and/or the world around it, not that they're feats for familiars to take.

[Coidzor]

Right, but it can only be taken by a familiar. Which implies that familiars get feats.

Familiars get feats at creation which may or may not be the default feats for the animals they were, they just don't get more feats as the player character levels.

[Craft (Cheese)]

You're misinterpreting something here.

The prerequisite isn't that you be a familiar but that you have the familiar class feature.

Likewise, in the familiars overview, when it gives a list of feats for familiars, it means those feats, when taken by the caster, improve how your familiar interacts with you and/or the world around it, not that they're feats for familiars to take.

I don't think so: The particular feat in question is from Animal Archive, and right below it (on page 18) is the Familiar Spell metamagic feat, which has the prerequisite "Spellcaster with Familiar class feature." Familiar Focus just has a prerequisite of "Familiar." The wording of the feat itself uses the familiar as its deictic center. With all this in mind I don't see any way to interpret this except that it's meant to be taken by the familiar, not its master.

Exactly how the familiar is supposed to get this though is kinda murky: Here's what the retraining rules say.


You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Technically you could find an NPC with a familiar who (somehow) has this feat, and have that familiar teach yours in a retraining session... Somehow that doesn't sound right.

I guess the only thing I can say here is agree with Coidzor: It must be something you're intended to do when you first acquire your familiar.

[TuggyNE]

Exactly how the familiar is supposed to get this though is kinda murky: Here's what the retraining rules say.



Technically you could find an NPC with a familiar who (somehow) has this feat, and have that familiar teach yours in a retraining session... Somehow that doesn't sound right.

DCFS will save us all!

[Spuddles]

From both the SRD & PFSRD:

"Hit Dice
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher."

Pretty sure familiars gain feats when their masters do.

[Coidzor]

From both the SRD & PFSRD:

"Hit Dice
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher."

Pretty sure familiars gain feats when their masters do.

Only if "for the purpose of effects" means actually possessing those HD for realsies. Pretty big IF on its own, unfortunately.

[TuggyNE]

From both the SRD & PFSRD:

"Hit Dice
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher."

Pretty sure familiars gain feats when their masters do.

"Effects related to number of Hit Dice" can much more reasonably be considered to include only those things that are actual effects — such as spells that only work on creatures with a certain number of Hit Dice, require greater costs for more Hit Dice, or whatever. Since quite a few of those exist, we don't need to stretch the text to figure out what mysterious and otherwise unknown thing it was referring to.

[Spuddles]

"Effects related to number of Hit Dice" can much more reasonably be considered to include only those things that are actual effects — such as spells that only work on creatures with a certain number of Hit Dice, require greater costs for more Hit Dice, or whatever. Since quite a few of those exist, we don't need to stretch the text to figure out what mysterious and otherwise unknown thing it was referring to.

Considering that Pathfinder offers feats for your familiars, I don't see it as that much of a stretch. How else is your familiar going to get feats? The language of the feats are written in the second person as if they are addressing the familiar. The feat posted above has language that would preclude anything but a familiar from benefiting from it.

Furthermore, these lines from the PFSRD suggest that you don't get to change your familiar's starting feats:
"It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. "

Speaking of stretching, you really seem to be stretching this sort of text to read very differently:
"Benefit: When delivering a touch spell for your master, the critical threat range of your touch attack is doubled. This feat does not stack with Improved Critical or other effects that increase critical threat range."

"Extra Item Slot" is even recommended for familiars, and that requires a non-humanoid body shape. Exactly how is a human wizard, in the context of having a toad familiar, going to be benefitting from that?

So if we want to appeal to RAI and use snarky blue text, it seems you are the one stretching things here.

[edit]
Here's the language for having a familiar as a prereq:
Prerequisites: Spellcaster with familiar class feature.

FYI, the prereq "familiar" doesn't refer to a class feature, but the Bestiary entry under the same name. Familiar is a monster category.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Familiars get feats at creation which may or may not be the default feats for the animals they were, they just don't get more feats as the player character levels.

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar) seems to indicate otherwise:

A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was...


I don't think so: The particular feat in question is from Animal Archive, and right below it (on page 18) is the Familiar Spell metamagic feat, which has the prerequisite "Spellcaster with Familiar class feature." Familiar Focus just has a prerequisite of "Familiar." The wording of the feat itself uses the familiar as its deictic center. With all this in mind I don't see any way to interpret this except that it's meant to be taken by the familiar, not its master.

Precisely.


Technically you could find an NPC with a familiar who (somehow) has this feat, and have that familiar teach yours in a retraining session... Somehow that doesn't sound right.

I guess the only thing I can say here is agree with Coidzor: It must be something you're intended to do when you first acquire your familiar.

This feat predates retraining rules though, and I don't see any other way for a caster to select a feat in place of Alertness. Is there an ACF I'm missing?


FYI, the prereq "familiar" doesn't refer to a class feature, but the Bestiary entry under the same name. Familiar is a monster category.

This is another good point. By following the link from the feat, it's pretty clear what the RAI is.

[DigoDragon]

I found this article on Familiars (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050906a) at the Wizards.com website and it said this on feats (I'll bold the specific line in question):




For purposes of resolving spells and other effects, a familiar has Hit Dice equal to its own or equal to the master's character level, whichever is higher.


This effective Hit Dice total applies only when the familiar is subjected to some effect whose resolution depends on Hit Dice, such as sleep, holy word, circle of death, and the frightful presence special attack. The familiar does not gain any skills, improved ability scores, base saving throw bonus, base attack bonus, feats, or hit points from its effective Hit Dice (though being a familiar improves most of these things -- read on), nor does the familiar increase in size.

I'd guess that, for D&D 3.5, the intention is that familiars do not get feats when their HD increases. However, the GM can always rule otherwise if the players are amicable to that. :smallsmile:

[ArcanistSupreme]

I found this article on Familiars (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050906a) at the Wizards.com website and it said this on feats (I'll bold the specific line in question):



I'd guess that, for D&D 3.5, the intention is that familiars do not get feats when their HD increases. However, the GM can always rule otherwise if the players are amicable to that. :smallsmile:

Unfortunately, Pathfinder changed lot of little things that make it difficult to be certain that RAW or RAI is the same.

[Coidzor]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar) seems to indicate otherwise:

It's still ambiguous enough to land it in ask the DM territory, but less so I suppose.

Still doesn't say they get feats as the caster levels up though. Hell, the text you quoted states that they're stuck with the HD of the base animal.


This feat predates retraining rules though, and I don't see any other way for a caster to select a feat in place of Alertness. Is there an ACF I'm missing?

Not that I'm aware of; however, you seem to be ruling out developer oversight/error.


Unfortunately, Pathfinder changed lot of little things that make it difficult to be certain that RAW or RAI is the same.

The bright side is that you can ask them and might even get an answer.

It's just, well, their track record for such things has included such gems as the rationale that monks would become terribly broken and over powered if they could wield magical weapons and get the increased damage dice of their unarmed strike progression.

[ArcanistSupreme]

It's still ambiguous enough to land it in ask the DM territory, but less so I suppose.

Still doesn't say they get feats as the caster levels up though. Hell, the text you quoted states that they're stuck with the HD of the base animal.

I know. I'm not super attached to it, but it'd be nice to have a familiar that scaled a little better since the character I want to use this for will be using it exclusively for combat.

EDIT: While it does say that it retains the hitpoints/HD of the base animal, perhaps it also means that it gets the bonus familiar stuff on top of that?


Not that I'm aware of; however, you seem to be ruling out developer oversight/error.

The best part of the game! /facepalm


The bright side is that you can ask them and might even get an answer.

It's just, well, their track record for such things has included such gems as the rationale that monks would become terribly broken and over powered if they could wield magical weapons and get the increased damage dice of their unarmed strike progression.

Maybe I could ask it in the form of a very leading question? Something like "How does a familiar acquire feats such as Familiar Focus?"

[TuggyNE]

Maybe I could ask it in the form of a very leading question? Something like "How does a familiar acquire feats such as Familiar Focus?"

This has the practical advantage that it will probably ensure you can do it, eventually; unfortunately, like measuring an electron's spin, asking the question changes the answer.

(Paizo will, in all likelihood, errata it once they figure out something's wrong. The errata will only ever be published in the thread you started. :smalltongue:)

[ArcanistSupreme]

This has the practical advantage that it will probably ensure you can do it, eventually; unfortunately, like measuring an electron's spin, asking the question changes the answer.

(Paizo will, in all likelihood, errata it once they figure out something's wrong. The errata will only ever be published in the thread you started. :smalltongue:)

So what website/forum do I go to to make such a post?

[Coidzor]

So what website/forum do I go to to make such a post?

Paizo's website. (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards)

[TuggyNE]

I eagerly await the result of your contribution to the Standard Model of Paizo Mechanics! :smalltongue: