How to make a T1 be T1, exactly?

[JusticeZero]

After seeing a lot of discussion, it occurs to me that i'm hazy on exactly what one chooses to do with a core T1 class that turns them into Angel Summoner. I've done it before, i've seen it happen before, but I couldn't quite put a finger on exactly where things went south other than the fact that at a certain point, I had lots and lots of spells for every occasion; I don't know how Clericzilla works exactly (though I have some general ideas), and I just never tend to bother playing a Druid, so i'm not sure how to make those go over the top either. I know there are several ways to do it.
Does anyone have some specific, step by step core ways to make a T1 into a raging game-breaker so we know what combos specifically to watch for/avoid? Without using flippant answers like "Just take natural spell"? I've seen someone take Natural Spell and still manage to underperform, so there's more steps involved.

[wayfare]

Metamagic is a big part, as is metamagic cost reduction.

Here is the basic thing, though -- one of the easiest ways to break 3.5 is to break action economy. As a caster, any summon spells effectively grant extra actions, plus the extra actions you can cast on yourself via spells like celerity, plus the extra actions you get from polymorphing, etc, etc. Add in the fact that you can start summoning things that can summon things, and the action economy break becomes...well, lets just say that its bad news.

[ArcturusV]

Well... I'd say the benchmark would be "Avoid spells that are one standard action to solve a problem".

That seems to be the crux of T1ness for the most part. It's not that someone picked a really powerful spell, necessarily. The fact that you have Time Stop doesn't make you T1, it just makes you powerful.

What makes you T1 is, that you have a standard action to solve a wide range of problems easily.

You need to get ______ to okay you to _____ (social challenge)? Charm person, laugh all the way to the bank. No need to come up with good bluffs, disguises, forgeries, etc.

You need to find a way through the trapped valley of adventurer death to get the macguffin? You cast Find Traps, see where all of them are and where the safe path is. No need for "testing", deduction, rogue skill checks, etc.

Break into the Castle of Archduke McBadguy? Well, I could just cast Passwall and walk right in, no need to have the Ranger scale the walls, or the Bard talk his way past the guards. etc.

So... it's about finding spells that negate entire obstacles or by themselves replicate the features of other specialist classes. You don't need the Rogue when you can cast Find Traps, Knock, and Summon Monster II to trigger traps. You don't need the Fighter when you can Summon Bears/Wolves. You don't need the Bard when you can just cast Charm Person and be as effective as they are at social encounters.

Of course, some spells are just so open ended in their utility (Gate, Planar Ally, Divination, etc) that if someone has those spells, and they're not negating entire challenges/party roles with it, it's because they either consciously choose not to or don't want to bother doing the quick bits of research needed to really break it open.

[eggynack]

It's all about the spell list. You pick the right spells, and you're golden. Except for druids. You could make every spell on their list some heightened zeroth level spell, and they'd still be a bear riding a bear summoning bears. It's just how they roll. Thus, the real question is what the best spells in the game are. I tend to favor summons and battlefield control, which partially explains why I use druids as crazy argument fodder.

A good battlefield control spell is a good way to just win an encounter. Sometimes, you need to provide a kill condition, and sometimes, the kill condition is build in. Spells of this type range everywhere from entangle, to web, to solid fog. They often also function as debuffs, which are also amazing. After an enemy, beating an encounter is the next highest scale of power. Placed correctly, battlefield control spells give you that capacity.

Summons are something that works best on druids, but is also nice at other times. The trick is in their versatility. Bears fit into just about every situation, and you don't even necessarily have to use them. A good summon is a swiss army knife of awesome. They're rarely the absolute perfect answer to a problem, but they're usually a sufficient answer. The fact that this swiss army knife can be accessed from any given druid spell, means that you can prepare slots to be pretty situational, if you want.

Next, you have buffs. There're a ton of different kinds of buffs, ranging from mobility, to offensive, to defensive, to utility. The best ones, like things in the polymorph line, can accomplish every single goal from a single slot. Buffs are at their best when they don't take up actions. They are, like summons and battlefield control spells, a way of cheating the action economy.

I suppose that that's the thing that really makes casters amazing. You cast a solid fog, and you've just traded a single action on your part for a ton of actions on the part of every enemy in its range. You summon a grappler, and it can effectively trade actions with your opponent until it runs out of duration. You cast heart of water at the beginning of the day, and that's a round you don't have to spend casting it in combat. You cast enervation, and you've just ruined the entire combat of the thing you cast it on. There are tons of things that make casters great. Their spells are powerful, they can do things that mundane guys can never do, they're multipurpose, but I think that the action economy is the biggest one. If a fighter stabs an enemy, then he's trading his turn for the ability to potentially stop the next turn of a single opponent. If a caster casts freezing fog, then he's trading his turn for the ability to definitely stop the rest of the encounter. It's just a different scale.

[gooddragon1]

Of course, some spells are just so open ended in their utility (Gate, Planar Ally, Divination, etc) that if someone has those spells, and they're not negating entire challenges/party roles with it, it's because they either consciously choose not to or don't want to bother doing the quick bits of research needed to really break it open.

I think you meant the polymorph line. Specifically shapechange (to use supernatural abilities for fun and profit).

To be t1 you need to fill all party roles better than anyone else.

Let's use the druid for an example:

You need to be able to fight (wildshape)
You need to be able to handle traps (summons)
You need to be able to cast spells (... -_-')

Outside of combat it's good to handle social situations but social situations generally aren't loaded with deadly consequences. Though, it's generally assumed that t1 is functioning in a dungeon with an 'accommodating' DM running the show. An experienced DM will throw social stuff but since people really tend to care about combat a t1 will outshine everyone else in the 'fun' part of the game (some people do enjoy social stuff though :/ ).

If you want to take over ALL roles (talker, fighter, spells, healing, traps, etc.) you're probably looking at archivist/cleric with the right domains (unless you want to bend over backwards with some interesting choices).

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, Shapechange is on there as well, and various Polymorph things. But the others belong on there as well. Even Divination, seemingly standing out as the odd man in the Power Curve on there is still fitting the Tier 1 status.

Because ultimately, especially for a caster, Knowledge is power. And divination and it's cousins is basically the ultimate versions of that.

"Oh, today we're ____. I cast Divination, ask about (Key Feature here), oh, we need to worry about that. Okay, I prep the Magic Bullet that solves that problem where I might not have otherwise."

Not to mention completely negating "information" quests. Yes. I could go on a quest to find a sage who might know where to find the answer to the question I need answered in order to solve the plot. Or cast a single spell.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, Shapechange is on there as well, and various Polymorph things. But the others belong on there as well. Even Divination, seemingly standing out as the odd man in the Power Curve on there is still fitting the Tier 1 status.

Because ultimately, especially for a caster, Knowledge is power. And divination and it's cousins is basically the ultimate versions of that.

"Oh, today we're ____. I cast Divination, ask about (Key Feature here), oh, we need to worry about that. Okay, I prep the Magic Bullet that solves that problem where I might not have otherwise."

Not to mention completely negating "information" quests. Yes. I could go on a quest to find a sage who might know where to find the answer to the question I need answered in order to solve the plot. Or cast a single spell.

I think you might want to note that divination is largely up to your DM on how well it works.

[erikun]

T1 is the potential to take control over the game. The T1 abilities are the ones that basically allow the spellcaster to choose how a scenario plays out. Basically, anything that allows you to say "No" to what the DM presents can put you into T1 territory.

So... any sort of planar binding. Summoning and using Spell-Like Abilities of the summoned monsters, although summoning in general can be a bit much. Gate and Wish are big ones, especially if you can get them without paying XP cost. Anything that shuts something down completely without save, like Forcecage, counts. Battlefield changers like Prismatic Wall and Wall of Force can just end encounters, which can also count large area effects that pin down opponents - Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, and even Entangle can do it. Cloudkill can wipe out hordes of low-level opponents.

Fly, Freedom of Movement, and True Seeing can completely shut down challanges. So can divination spells that automatically get answers: anything from Speak with Dead to talk with a murder victim to Contact Other Plane to get answers directly.

For Clerics and Druids, the biggest problem is dominating everything in melee. Divine Favor + Righteous Might (especially persisted with the Divine Metamagic feat) make them far stronger than just about anything else they run across. Druids have Wildshape, although you probably need a little something (wilding clasps, buffs) to avoid taking a lot of damage that way. Magic Weapon can sort of do this for everyone.

[gooddragon1]

T1 is the potential to take control over the game. The T1 abilities are the ones that basically allow the spellcaster to choose how a scenario plays out. Basically, anything that allows you to say "No" to what the DM presents can put you into T1 territory.

So... any sort of planar binding. Summoning and using Spell-Like Abilities of the summoned monsters, although summoning in general can be a bit much. Gate and Wish are big ones, especially if you can get them without paying XP cost. Anything that shuts something down completely without save, like Forcecage, counts. Battlefield changers like Prismatic Wall and Wall of Force can just end encounters, which can also count large area effects that pin down opponents - Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, and even Entangle can do it. Cloudkill can wipe out hordes of low-level opponents.

Fly, Freedom of Movement, and True Seeing can completely shut down challanges. So can divination spells that automatically get answers: anything from Speak with Dead to talk with a murder victim to Contact Other Plane to get answers directly.

For Clerics and Druids, the biggest problem is dominating everything in melee. Divine Favor + Righteous Might (especially persisted with the Divine Metamagic feat) make them far stronger than just about anything else they run across. Druids have Wildshape, although you probably need a little something (wilding clasps, buffs) to avoid taking a lot of damage that way. Magic Weapon can sort of do this for everyone.

A lot of this is good but it's not just the ability to say no to one thing, it's the ability to say no to a variety of things that puts a class in t1.

[Tar Palantir]

One way to look at the tiers in in terms of answers: specifically, how many different answers you have (or can have), how many questions any one answer can answer well, and how well your answers do at answering those questions. A Tier 5 like a fighter only has one or two answers, at all. They can full attack, and maybe trip or something. Those answers are only really good in a few situations (even in combat; do you really want to trade full attacks with a dragon?), and even in the situations they answer best, they're still only okay (like a trip fighter against a lone humanoid opponent; either they're melee and likely to win an opposed check eventually, or they're a caster and have some kind of get-out-of-jail-free card like a dim door that stands a good chance of succeeding).

Conversely, Tier 1s have loads of answers (at least dozens even if you're a wizard who never scribes anything; potentially thousands for clerics and druids). Give them a day and they can have the absolute perfect answer for any situation, but even with just a general list of diverse spells, their best answer for a given problem is miles ahead of what the fighter's packing. Take that lone humanoid opponent from before; depending on what sort of class they're packing, a save-or-die that targets a weak save can end the fight right there, as can a dominate, holy word, or other save-or-lose. If you think their saves are high, a metamagicked orb spell or a forcecage can ignore even that single line of defense. No matter which choice you end up picking, you stand a solid chance of ending the fight with a single spell, possibly without giving them any chance to defend themselves or even roll a die. What's more, a lot of spells can answer whole hosts of different problems. Things like color spray, web, stinking cloud, solid fog, and suggestion are almost always at least a 'good enough' answer to damn near anything.

It's not really a matter of a few problematic spells or archetypes (though there are a few that are above the curve, don't get me wrong). It's that they can do a lot of different things, can change which things they can do with forewarning, and each of those things is both more versatile and stronger than what the lower tiers can do. Even a blaster wizard without optimization, about as bad as you can get in Tier 1 without serious player stupidity, is on a level playing field with the fighter. Using the least effective class of spells at their baseline level, you match the fighter.

That said, addressing specific classes: Druid is pretty straightforward, you use your animal companion for a beatstick (riding dogs and brown bears are top core picks, but the druid in a game I'm in is using a bison to pretty good effect), use spells for buffs, battlefield control, and summons to taste (speccing hard into summoning gets really disgusting really fast, but even without feats, an extra bear is still a bear), and use wildshape to beat face as is situationally appropriate (you aren't really tanky without picking your gear well, but you can heal if you need it; just don't trade full attacks with the previously mentioned dragon). There's a reason they say bear riding a bear summoning bears: 'bear' is one of those universally good answers. For clerics, read all of those juicy personal range buffs in core and Spell Compendium; there's a lot to love. With Divine Power, your numbers equal the fighter's; everything else is above and beyond. DMM Persist helps a lot because it makes those round/lvl goodies last all day; without it I tend to give a bit more weight to the hour/lvl and 24 hour stuff, just because you can't always count on casting more than one or two short duration buffs in a given fight. Don't heal in combat except to stabilize or cast heal; you're better off killing whatever it is that's killing everyone than casting cure x wounds. Wizards have the worst chassis, but make up for it with the most offensive mojo on their spell list. Always specialize or go Elven Generalist; never ban conjuration or transmutation, evocation and enchantment are probably the easiest to give up, but you can survive most choices. Remember that your spells have to do everything, so don't overspecialize; remember your defensive buffs, your divinations, your battlefield control, your teleports and other escape buttons, and your rope trick. Don't use more spells than you have to to solve a problem; if you cast sinking cloud on a mob of orcs and all but one fail their save, let the other PCs mop up and save your juice (plink away with a crossbow if you have to do something). You're expected to do for encounters per day; plan on six.

As a general rule of thumb, efficiency is the mark of effective high-tier play. I have seen a wizard literally end a fight with one web; my character, the crusader, just sat at the edge and chewed his way in while the enemies tried desperately to escape, to no avail. In practice one good spell often won't end the fight, but two almost certainly will, especially if they're comboed well; toss a stinking cloud on that web, and the mobs might as well slit their own throats and be done with it.

Not sure if that's exactly what you were looking for, but I hope it helped!

[erikun]

A lot of this is good but it's not just the ability to say no to one thing, it's the ability to say no to a variety of things that puts a class in t1.
Both T1 and T2 can have The AnswerTM to any situation, but they differ in that T2 tends to only have one Answer while T1 can change their spells into having any Answer they want.

To post an example, a T2 Sorcerer can be focused on dealing damage. You can go with a Mailman build and be really, really good at dealing damage - pretty much any time you want to deal damage, the Sorcerer can deal as much as you want, whenever and wherever you want. However, that's mostly the one Answer you have.

For a T1 Wizard, you can be focused on dealing damage as well. You would be capable of dealing pretty much any amount of damage you'd what, when you want it, much like the Sorcerer. However, if that doesn't work, the next day you use divination and teleport to a target to accomplish what you want. If that doesn't work, you can mind-control anybody to solve a problem. If that doesn't work, you can summon a horde of angels to sort it all out.

In short, T1-T2 can produce The AnswerTM to any question or problem proposed. The difference is that T2 is limited to only a single set Answer (possibly two or more) while T1 can freely change what Answer they want to have - daily, in most cases.


The "Tier 0" classes are the ones who don't even need to prepare: (Psionic) Artificer, Spell-to-Power Erudite, Tainted Scholar, and anything else that can literally have everything at their fingertips at any time.

[Gwendol]

For cleric, it's about DMM and persist spell (works without too, but requires a little more effort and planning), picking the right domains for the job, and the right spells. Druids have the summoning line of feats, natural spell, a choice of animal companion, and wild shapes, in addition to spells.

Both clerics and druids have spontaneous casting to add to their versatility. The cleric versatility is greatly enhanced by being able to spontaneously cast domain spells instead of healing/harming spells.

Wizards, well, just pick any role, read the handbook, and carry on.

The thing with these classes is that the effort required (especially for clerics and druids) to reach versatility and power isn't really in proportion to the power level of the classes.

[Chronos]

Divination isn't the odd man out in terms of T1 power. Rather, information-gathering is the core of a T1 class's power. That's information-gathering of any sort, even if it isn't provided by the T1 class itself, or even by magic at all: The party bard using Gather Information can also be fuel for the wizard.

The key is that a T1 class can prepare for anything. Yeah, you'll usually have some standard spell list that you prepare by default most days. But if you find out you'll be facing undead tomorrow, presto, tomorrow's spell list is now focused on fighting undead. Mostly aberrations? You've got just the spell list for that, too. Bunch of orcs? Now you're specialized against humanoids. What really allows a T1 to live up to their potential is being prepared for what's coming, and that means information.

[JusticeZero]

Yes I know what a T1 means, that wasn't the question though exactly. What I want is to know specific ways that said T1 can dominate in combat where the melee would expect to have their chance to shine only to have it taken from them.

[Asrrin]

Yes I know what a T1 means, that wasn't the question though exactly. What I want is to know specific ways that said T1 can dominate in combat where the melee would expect to have their chance to shine only to have it taken from them.

The level 20 fighter wades into battle, does a full attack of 3-4 swings (depending on feats) deals a few hundred damage if he's properly spec'd out. He may or may not kill 3-4 enemies.

The level 20 Wizard shape changes into a 12-headed Cryohydra, uses a cold breath attack, attacks 14 times, and then gets a full 12 headed attack for every AoO he makes. That not enough? He shape changes into a pit fiend, and the aura he has automatically slays anything lower than level 16. That not enough? He shape changes into a Zodar and casts wish, or a Solar and casts Miracle.

This is a single spell mind you, that lasts the entire combat, and the Wizard can do all of it at once with the single spell. A 20th level wizard has at least 4 slots to put this spell in, and often times more.

The wizard can out fighter the fighter with a single spell. So can the druid, the cleric, the sorcerer, the favored soul, ect.

[JusticeZero]

Sure, but that is much higher level than people have been reporting casters becoming high powered at. If it was a matter of "Wait till 17th level, then pwn" I don't think many of the issues would have arisen. Most don't even get that high.

[ahenobarbi]

Metamagic is a big part, as is metamagic cost reduction.

Here is the basic thing, though -- one of the easiest ways to break 3.5 is to break action economy. As a caster, any summon spells effectively grant extra actions, plus the extra actions you can cast on yourself via spells like celerity, plus the extra actions you get from polymorphing, etc, etc. Add in the fact that you can start summoning things that can summon things, and the action economy break becomes...well, lets just say that its bad news.

If you want to outfight the fighter as a wizard you can do it at level 1, just be a conjurer and take abrupt jaunt. Or trade familiar for animal companion.

If you want to outfight the fighter as a druid you can do it at level 1, just take riding dog animal companion.

If you want to outfight the fighter as a cleric you can do it at level 1, take planning domain (grants Extended Spell), Persistent Spell feat, Divine Metamagic(Persisten Spell) feat (be human or have a flaw) and persist something nice (vigor? enlarge person? divine favor? ). (ok... this one is not so obviously outfighting fighter at level 1...)

[ArcturusV]

So you're not really asking about "Tier 1 Status", you're asking how do you dominate Combat with a tier one.

With a Cleric it comes down to two things: One, you have cheap, easy, low level, effective divination. Knowledge is power as I mentioned. And that comes into play here as very few times, even at low levels, should you be "ambushed" when you're on a typical adventure (Since typically on an adventure you're on the offense, your exploration determines the pace of encounters, and simple abilities even like Detect Alignment can spot enemies while there are still doors/walls between you). Combine that with a slew of decent minutes/level buff spells and you can hulk out into a bruiser pretty easily. DMM: Persist seems like icing on the cake (never used it myself, but I can see the use), but isn't really needed to maintain this. Even lower level spells like Sadism can have a big effect on a fight (for every 10 damage you deal in a round, you get a stacking +1 to attack, skills, and saves until the end of your next round), and since Clerics generally buff up pre-battle then smash face during it, generally means you're always getting the bonuses for it. Course, Sadism might not sound like much, but it is only a second level spell. But by the time I'm first casting it, it's basically a "every round after the first, get a +2", and as I increase in level and start hitting harder, it's only getting better.

But that's generally how it happens with a Cleric. I have All The Buffs. Stat buffs? Yeah. Morale buffs? Yeah. Luck Buffs? Yeah. Enhancement buffs? Sure thing boss. I COULD cast this on anyone (Usually at the table I'm expected to/asked to. Group dynamics being what they are I'm often expected to just sit in the back and cast buffs/heals as needed with most groups I Cleric with), but it works just fine on myself as well, and it's not like the Cleric is a gonna get ripped apart in his Robes and no weapon better than a dagger, with d4 HP. Course they also get answers to a lot of the various "you need this to even fight" answers. Flying, etc, etc, etc.

The moment you can (may not actually do this, but CAN) do something like watch as the fighter just plinks away with 1d8 arrows against the harpies/dragons/eagles or something, and you can either ground them, or ascend up to the sky to slap them around out of their own habitat, summon up some celestial pegasus to be my flying steed, etc. Then you've already reached that point of making the Fighter take a back seat to you doing what they supposedly are there for.

[JusticeZero]

Right, because I see that people don't so much mind the finger wigglers having lots of answers to noncombat situations because hey, once a fight breaks out, , that's the name of my class!

[Asrrin]

Sure, but that is much higher level than people have been reporting casters becoming high powered at. If it was a matter of "Wait till 17th level, then pwn" I don't think many of the issues would have arisen. Most don't even get that high.

A druid uses a riding Dog as it's companion. A wizard uses the animal companion ACF to also get a riding dog. Suddenly, at level 1, the Wizard and Druid both have a single class feature that is better than the fighter. And spells.

[Gwendol]

Riding dogs are good, but it's a bit unfair to say they fight better than the fighter (they don't).

To outfight the fighter with a cleric or a druid at low levels isn't very hard, it's more or less built-in. With a wizard it's not as easy.

[eggynack]

Riding dogs are good, but it's a bit unfair to say they fight better than the fighter (they don't).

To outfight the fighter with a cleric or a druid at low levels isn't very hard, it's more or less built-in. With a wizard it's not as easy.
Eh, it's arguable at level one. I should know, cause I've argued it. Fighters tend to have a higher level of offensive power, because they usually have a higher strength mod. they're usually going to be tripping stuff, because that's about as good as it gets for fighters. Riding dogs tend to have a higher level of defensive power, which is worse later on, but pretty good at level one, when you really want a shield of meat. Assuming that fighters have a con of 14, and that you max out HP at level one, riding dogs still have one more HP than fighters. Not the biggest difference, but it's relevant. The riding dog's tripping abilities are also about equal to the fighter's, except more defensively minded than offensively minded. They get all of their trip attempts absolutely free, which means that you're doing it to enemies that the fighter wouldn't have attempted to trip.

Riding dogs also have a greater AC. Druids get 50 GP at first level, compared to 150 GP on a fighter, but that's more than enough. You can spend 20 of that on leather barding for the dog, 25 on studded leather for yourself, and still have enough left over for both a spear and a sling. That puts the riding dog at 18 AC. The fighter, meanwhile, needs to get chain shirt if he wants to afford a weapon. He maxes out at the riding dog's AC, but it's likely significantly lower than that. Probably somewhere between 14 and 16, depending on his point buy. Unless he's going all in on combat reflexes, he's going to only want about 12 dexterity, because full plate gets rid of everything greater.

Most importantly, the riding dog has a druid animal companion. This might seem like an unfair addition for the comparison, but I'm not really considering casting ability at all. I'm taking the dog and the druid as a cohesive fighter unit. While the dog is killing the enemy, the druid is free to plink away with his sling, or plonk away with his spear. In either case, it gives the druid a second source of damage, which either doubles his targets, or deals extra to one target. The druid is also a reasonable defensive force at this level. He probably has about 13 AC, and about 10 HP, and that's not bad. It's not great, and it picks up a hell of a lot in later levels, but you're not a wizard. You represent an actual threat at this level, and the fact that you have double the actions of a fighter is relevant.

It's not necessarily a comparison in favor of the riding dog, but it's also not necessarily a comparison in favor of the fighter. It's a bit of a toss up, and that's really all the druid wants or needs. It pushes more in the druids favor if we're talking about a monk, and it tilts a lot towards the fighter at 2nd level. At 3rd level, the riding dog reclaims some of his power, but probably not quite enough. The druid doesn't care though, because now he's casting blinding spittle, and kelpstrand. More importantly, he has enough spell slots to carry him through an adventuring day. At 4th level, the riding dog can become a fleshraker, and I don't know what the comparison looks like at that point. I guess we could run it, but I don't know if it's necessary. Fleshrakers are sweet though, and perform a lot of the same actions as a fighter, even if they're not identical. Druids are frigging sweet.

[Deepbluediver]

Does anyone have some specific, step by step core ways to make a T1 into a raging game-breaker so we know what combos specifically to watch for/avoid? Without using flippant answers like "Just take natural spell"? I've seen someone take Natural Spell and still manage to underperform, so there's more steps involved.

What it takes to make a tier 1 class is to basically use a given set of problems (like this one (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(DnD_Guideline)), for example) as a checklist for what your character can do. Bonus points if the same ability addresses multiple situations, or if they have multiple ways of dealing with it.
Generally speaking, you can look at a list of situations where some classes can contribute very little or not at all, and other classes dominate with a single, easily attainable ability.

When you've worked out a build your character can use to beat every problem more times than not, you're Tier 1.
If your class can build different ways to adress different problems, but no one build can be guaranteed to win them all, you're Tier 2.
If your class can deal directly with some problems, and either circumvent or escape from others, then you're likely Tier 3.
When you start finding situations that you can't deal with at all without multiclassing or extereme amounts of sheer luck then you've dropped into Tier 4 and below.

I hope this was helpful, and if I'm mistaken the I'm certain some one will correct me. :smalltongue:

[erikun]

Yes I know what a T1 means, that wasn't the question though exactly. What I want is to know specific ways that said T1 can dominate in combat where the melee would expect to have their chance to shine only to have it taken from them.
Well, the first thing to note is that melee becomes less and less useful at higher levels. Unless a character is able to wipe out an opponent in a single round, they're going to lose out to a spellcaster and the large number of spells available that can do just that. (save-or-suck, save-or-lose, no-save-just-suck, no-save-just-lose) The more rounds it takes a melee character to eliminate a threat, the more powerful T1 is in comparison with the one-hit-victory spells they have.

At higher levels, there is more HP and it is harder to cut through it all quickly enough to matter - to say nothing about the problem of actually reaching the opponent.


For Clerics, the best low-level core spells are Bless, Divine Favor, Bull Strength, Magic Weapon (+Greater), Divine Power, and Righteous Might. In general, one or two of these spells will give the Cleric better combat bonuses than the Fighter, especially considering there is nothing stopping the Cleric from having good strength as well. (14 WIS and magic items will allow they access to all their spells, without putting a single stat point into it.) And this says nothing about the Cleric's other non-spell abilities, like Knowledge Devotion: How does +5 to hit and +5 damage sound?

For Druids, a lot of it is the animal companion (at low levels) and spells and wildshape (at mid-high). A dog or wolf may not have the outright damage of a barbarian with a greataxe, but two attackers with high AC, who can flank with each other and one who gets a free trip, can quickly overbalance things towards the Druid. It may not sound like much, but a +4 bonus is going to ensure that nearly anything hits. (Druids also get Entangle, which is amazing at slowing down or trapping groups of enemies.)

For Wizards, I haven't found melee dominance to be their thing. At least, not until the later levels. Rather, the Wizard works in eliminating groups or individual targets. Sleep and Color Spray at first level, Glitterdust and Web for second level spells, Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud with third level spells, and so on. And these are just the spells for attacking opponents: Enlarge Person on an ally, Invisibility, Spider Climb, Fly, Haste on an ally, Scorching Ray/Orb spells for direct damage, and any number of illusions or summoning spells can be useful for staying alive, attacking opponents for you, or making other characters in the party better.

Contrary to popular opinion on these forums, I find that a Wizard tends to like some sort of melee-support at lower levels to eliminate Sleep'd or Web'd opponents. Of course, this doesn't have to be a Fighter: Barbarian, Warblade, or even Cleric works out quite well. However, until their summons stick around long enough to chew opponents apart, they generally prefer somebody to go around and coup de grace unconcious or helpless opponents.

[gooddragon1]

To dominate combat from the beginning (or at least as early as possible) you play a druid, wildshape into a bear and summon bears. It's like you're playing 10 characters. Later on you throw in some flame strikes or firestorms for extra damage if you need it. At level 1 you cast entangle and have your animal companion go nuts. Druids aren't as good at handling other things as wizards and clerics are but they will dominate combats with even a little effort right out of core.

[eggynack]

To dominate combat from the beginning (or at least as early as possible) you play a druid, wildshape into a bear and summon bears. It's like you're playing 10 characters. Later on you throw in some flame strikes or firestorms for extra damage if you need it. At level 1 you cast entangle and have your animal companion go nuts. Druids aren't as good at handling other things as wizards and clerics are but they will dominate combats with even a little effort right out of core.
If you're out of core, things get much more fun. Instead of a bear, you wild shape into a desmodu hunting bat, and cast greater luminous armor, heart of water, primal instincts, and enhance wild shape at the beginning of the adventuring day. Maybe toss heart of air into the mix, so that you get light fortification. You get 28 AC, with an effective 32 against melee, a 70 ft good fly speed, an initiative mod of +12, 120 foot blind sight, and everything that heart of water, heart of air, and primal instincts gets you incidentally. That set of stuff doesn't even consume that many resources.

Then, you have two choices. You can summon bears and have a bear companion, and you cast animal growth on them at the start of combat, or you can go with elementals. Take rashemi elemental summoning, and your 6th level spells can be converted into three 15d6 cones of cold each, with an orglash rider effect. Orglashes and thomils are surprisingly resilient and powerful, so they're likely to last for their entire duration, which is basically forever when you add ashbound summoning to the mix. Also at 6th level spells, you can summon an oread, which gets you earthquake as a 6th level spontaneous spell. Druids are crazy, and I haven't even started to dip into spells that you'd like to cast in combat.

[Gwendol]

Eh, it's arguable at level one. I should know, cause I've argued it. Fighters tend to have a higher level of offensive power, because they usually have a higher strength mod. they're usually going to be tripping stuff, because that's about as good as it gets for fighters. Riding dogs tend to have a higher level of defensive power, which is worse later on, but pretty good at level one, when you really want a shield of meat. Assuming that fighters have a con of 14, and that you max out HP at level one, riding dogs still have one more HP than fighters. Not the biggest difference, but it's relevant. The riding dog's tripping abilities are also about equal to the fighter's, except more defensively minded than offensively minded. They get all of their trip attempts absolutely free, which means that you're doing it to enemies that the fighter wouldn't have attempted to trip.

Riding dogs also have a greater AC. Druids get 50 GP at first level, compared to 150 GP on a fighter, but that's more than enough. You can spend 20 of that on leather barding for the dog, 25 on studded leather for yourself, and still have enough left over for both a spear and a sling. That puts the riding dog at 18 AC. The fighter, meanwhile, needs to get chain shirt if he wants to afford a weapon. He maxes out at the riding dog's AC, but it's likely significantly lower than that. Probably somewhere between 14 and 16, depending on his point buy. Unless he's going all in on combat reflexes, he's going to only want about 12 dexterity, because full plate gets rid of everything greater.


The riding dog has one (1) attack/round during its entire adventuring career. It can't qualify for improved trip (not smart enough), has no reach and no ranged attacks. While it may outperform a level 1 fighter in melee combat, most fighter builds will overtake the dog at least at level 6 when the first iterative comes online.

[nightwyrm]

The riding dog has one (1) attack/round during its entire adventuring career. It can't qualify for improved trip (not smart enough), has no reach and no ranged attacks. While it may outperform a level 1 fighter in melee combat, most fighter builds will overtake the dog at least at level 6 when the first iterative comes online.

The wonderful thing about animal companions is that you get to trade them in for newer, bigger models for free as you level up.

[Khatoblepas]

The riding dog has one (1) attack/round during its entire adventuring career. It can't qualify for improved trip (not smart enough), has no reach and no ranged attacks. While it may outperform a level 1 fighter in melee combat, most fighter builds will overtake the dog at least at level 6 when the first iterative comes online.

By level 6, a druid isn't using a riding dog. It's using a fleshraker with Venomfire, or a tiger, or another bear with animal growth.

A fighter will never overtake the druid's animal companion. Never.

[Gwendol]

At level 6 a druid has access to the following AC's:

4th Level or Higher (Level -3)
•Ape (animal)
•Bear, black (animal)
•Bison (animal)
•Boar (animal)
•Cheetah (animal)
•Crocodile (animal)1
•Dire badger
•Dire bat
•Dire weasel
•Leopard (animal)
•Lizard, monitor (animal)
•Shark, Large1 (animal)
•Snake, constrictor (animal)
•Snake, Large viper (animal)
•Wolverine (animal)

Tiger comes at level 7. The animals for the most part still have no reach and no ranged attacks. They still can't get improved trip. And I think I quite clearly stated the comparison was against the riding dog, since I often see that being mentioned as a fighter replacement (which it isn't, at least not past the first 1-2 levels or so).

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes I know what a T1 means, that wasn't the question though exactly. What I want is to know specific ways that said T1 can dominate in combat where the melee would expect to have their chance to shine only to have it taken from them.

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what Tier 1 is (and what the other tiers are).

The tiers first split into two to three sub tiers:
Tier A: Relevant and capable of acting on a strategic scale. Tier 0, 1, and 2. These are the tiers that can wake up and decide that they don't like a nation existing and have removed it from existence before the day (or at worst week) is over.

Tier B: Relevant and capable of acting on a tactical scale. Tier 3 and 4 are here. These tiers might not be able to remove a nation on whim but they can certainly solo a kings guard or the like on whim and assassinate said king.

Tier C: Relevant and capable only when dealing with specific tactical scale problems. Tier 5 and 6. These tiers generally only help with specific tactical problems.

Now beyond that.

The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is pure versatility. Imagine a Tier 2 class as being one with nuclear missiles. Well optimized they might have the full triad (ICBM's, SLBM's, and bombers) but they are still limited to nuclear missiles. A Tier 1 class though is the US. It has the nuclear missiles but it also has multiple intelligence gathering agencies, lots of diplomatic power, lots of economic power, a navy, satellite communications and surveillance, and with just a bit of effort can generally provide a specific solution optimized for any given problem.

Tier 3 classes might be as good or better than a tier 1 or tier 2 class in straight combat or in solving a given tactical problem but they are basically a SAS/Delta/SEAL team. Their actions might be strategically relevant but they are all operating in a very confined, tactical, area. With preparation they might have some anti tank or anti air missiles (or some large demolition charges) but these are limited resources and still only relevant in the immediate area. The difference between Tier 3 and lower tiers (especially tier 4) is sheer tactical versatility. A Factotum can skill monkey, can cast some spells, can use magical healing, can be a first rate archer, can be a first rate melee monster, and can be a first rate scout all at the same time; a Rogue generally can't.

Tier 5 and 6 are pretty much gangbanger level. In their area of expertise they might be as good as anyone else but their resources are limited and outside of their area of expertise they just aren't very good.

----
As for how to make a wizard as good as (or better than) a fighter in combat. Use Shapechange, use Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm), win. Throw in Xorn Movement, Greater Ironguard, Superior Invisibility, Mindblank, Selective Antimagic Field (select yourself), and fly before shifting into a good combat form (what is best depends on what you are fighting). Persist everything but Transformation and just cast it quickened from a scroll when you want it. Maybe dump the Superior Invisibility if you want your fellow adventurers to be able to see you.

[centeotl]

Well, tier 5-6 aren't so much "gangbanger" as they are "everything between gangbanger and standard soldier". But yeah, I agree with everything else.

[JusticeZero]

I'm seeing this dynamic :
Early game, noncombat problem, the fighters look over at the miracle workers or rogue for answers. Then someone sees monsters, the Wizard stands back with a crossbow with the other miraculous folk while the fighter does his thing.
A bit later, noncombat problem, the casters can handle it. A fight starts, the magical types toss out a bit of buffing or something to soften the enemy up, then the fighters go to work.
Even later, but still single digit levels, the fight starts, the fighters pull out their weapons and go ".... Wait, where did the enemies go? Why am I here? HAX!", then next fight pulls in and nearly hammers them flat but the spellcaster is victorious.
At no point was noncombat ability a problem for anyone, but once the combat power ramps up, the complaints begin.
Therefore, I'm trying to find out where it turns around in the 5-10 level range, for combat specifically because nobody complains about wizards and clerics and druids having the best answers outside of combat.

[Tar Palantir]

At level 6 a druid has access to the following AC's:

4th Level or Higher (Level -3)
•Ape (animal)
•Bear, black (animal)
•Bison (animal)
•Boar (animal)
•Cheetah (animal)
•Crocodile (animal)1
•Dire badger
•Dire bat
•Dire weasel
•Leopard (animal)
•Lizard, monitor (animal)
•Shark, Large1 (animal)
•Snake, constrictor (animal)
•Snake, Large viper (animal)
•Wolverine (animal)

Tiger comes at level 7. The animals for the most part still have no reach and no ranged attacks. They still can't get improved trip. And I think I quite clearly stated the comparison was against the riding dog, since I often see that being mentioned as a fighter replacement (which it isn't, at least not past the first 1-2 levels or so).

At level 6, you can argue that the fighter isn't completely outmatched by the companion unless the druid picks up a fleshraker (at level 7, between brown bears, dire wolves, giant crocodiles, and rhinos, things aren't looking quite so hot for Fighter McFighterson). The fighter is, however, on roughly the same competitive level as one of the druid's three notable class features (and arguably the worst of the three).The fighter may be better than a bison or an advanced riding dog, but he's certainly not better than the animal companion plus the wildshaped druid plus the druid's buffs plus the druid's summons. Remember, the choice isn't druid and AC versus druid and fighter, it's druid and AC versus fighter, or druid and AC and fighter versus druid and AC and something else.

[eggynack]

The riding dog has one (1) attack/round during its entire adventuring career. It can't qualify for improved trip (not smart enough), has no reach and no ranged attacks. While it may outperform a level 1 fighter in melee combat, most fighter builds will overtake the dog at least at level 6 when the first iterative comes online.
I was arguing specifically about level one. The point is, at is has always been, that level one is the fighter's wheel house. If he's powerful, at any one point in his adventuring career, it's at that one shining moment when a good consistent attack, and good HP, and maybe some defense, is enough. It's not enough at level 6, and by that point, the animal companion stops being the barometer for druid success. Besides, as has been noted, you seem to be forgetting about fleshrakers for some reason. Those things are pretty crazy.

It doesn't matter though, because it's never mattered. Druids are one of the best characters in the game from level one through twenty, because at level one they have an effective fighter, and after that they have enough spells per day to really start making a difference. Druids at level six don't have one attack per round. They have a ton of attacks per round. You send in a riding dog, and that's an attack, and you add a dire wolf in flanking position, and that's a second attack, and after that you can either use spells to approximate a third attack, or rush in as a luminous armored up black bear, with maybe a bite of the were x for good luck. I don't need to prove that the level six druid is more powerful than the level six fighter, because we already knew that.

[Gwendol]

I never disputed the power of the druid, just that the idea that the AC is a better fighter than the fighter.
Fleshrakers aren't for all games, which you seem to be forgetting for some reason.

[eggynack]

I never disputed the power of the druid, just that the idea that the AC is a better fighter than the fighter.
Fleshrakers aren't for all games, which you seem to be forgetting for some reason.
The AC is about as good of a fighter as a fighter is at first level. That, and only that, is what I was pointing out. I could make a second argument about level three, because the riding dog gets up to four HD at that point, but I don't see the point in talking about level six. The animal companion might be a better fighter than a fighter at the levels where it's important for him to be a better fighter than a fighter.

At later levels, he's probably not a better fighter than a fighter. However, you can pull some nice synergies if you want to, and make the combination of an animal companion and wild shape, with some spell back up, better at fighting than a fighter. Really, the goal here is for the druid to be better at being a fighter than a fighter is at all levels. At level one, that's what his riding dog is for. At level six, you're replacing the fighter in other ways.

[Gwendol]

And most will not be advancing as fighters past level six either. Also, the fighter is hopefully not operating in a vacuum and will likely benefit from WBL and buffs from the party cleric/wizard/bard/druid.

My contention is that opinions and advice like "The AC is a better fighter than the party fighter", and "druids are easy, just wildshape and bite the face off your enemies" are not entirely true. The AC is typically a strong addition to melee combat, but suffers from not having reach or ranged combat options. Wildshaping early on and going into melee is a sure way for the druid to get killed unless minding the armor class of the wildshape.

The druid (like the cleric) is tier 1, but if played like a fighter isn't living up to its potential.

[eggynack]

And most will not be advancing as fighters past level six either. Also, the fighter is hopefully not operating in a vacuum and will likely benefit from WBL and buffs from the party cleric/wizard/bard/druid.

My contention is that opinions and advice like "The AC is a better fighter than the party fighter", and "druids are easy, just wildshape and bite the face off your enemies" are not entirely true. The AC is typically a strong addition to melee combat, but suffers from not having reach or ranged combat options. Wildshaping early on and going into melee is a sure way for the druid to get killed unless minding the armor class of the wildshape.

The druid (like the cleric) is tier 1, but if played like a fighter isn't living up to its potential.
I agree that the ideas that the animal companion or wild shape are always better than a fighter are tossed around a bit much. They're ideas that are based in truth, so we often state them without remembering how we arrived at that fact. The truth of it is, druids approximate fighters incredibly well, often while actually living up to their potential, but it takes effort. Druids don't operate in a vacuum either, and there are methods available at every level that let the druid obsolete the fighter, often incidentally.

At first level, this method is predicated solely on the animal companion. Their summoning hasn't come into its own yet, they don't have wild shape, and their spells are at their best when they control the battlefield. They can't really pull the thing where they buff themselves into insanity. At this level, the animal companion is approximately a fighter. There's some argument around the specifics, but a riding dog is more than enough to both meat shield, and to provide inevitability after the druid shoots an entangle field. You need a kill condition after locking down a battle field, and even when he's not at the level of a fighter, he basically always does that.

The thing that is great about the animal companion, is that it lets the druid be a fighter, while living up to his potential simultaneously. You picked level six without allowing fleshrakers, but that's somewhat non-indicatve. In a single level that riding dog is becoming a bear, and I don't see why you should dismiss the best option at that level out of hand. At 6th level, you're don't only rely on the animal companion to be a fighter. You're able to summon an augmented and ashbound dire wolf, and those things plus the riding dog is really what you're aiming for. You said that fighters get two attacks to the riding dog's one, but that ignores the druid's massive advantages in the realm of the action economy. The druid is doubling the fighter's turns in his natural state, and he can increase that number as a fight goes on. The riding dog is not a fighter at level six, but the druid as a whole is. I don't even think dire wolf summoning is particularly suboptimal. You're spending one turn and a single slot to get most of the lock down and damage dealing capabilities of a fighter. It's not a perfect facsimile, but it's close enough. If you really need to, you can also add your damage dealing ability to the fray.

People often set up the straw man of the armor-less black bear, but that's a bit misleading. I tend to prefer a desmodu hunting bat, and in either case, you better believe that I have luminous armor on. In bat form, you've approximately doubled the amount of riding dog you're bringing to the table. Your attack is only dealing 1d6+3, but it trips, and with luminous armor you're sitting on a 29 AC against melee attacks. You're far more defensive than offensive, but that makes you a reasonably capable meat shield. Additionally, a black bear with luminous armor sports an AC of 22 against melee, and has a pretty solid attack routine. It's not great, but the point is that it's not bad either. You're not attacking alone, and it's far from the only thing you can do. It's really a last resort, after you've expended other resources, but if you need someone to wade into melee, you're not the worst option.

The thing that makes druids great isn't that they are fighters. The thing that makes them great is that they can be fighters. They can be fighters incidentally, and can do so in addition to everything else they do. Real fighters are stuck in that role full time, while druids can toss out a class feature, and tell that to handle the role. A riding dog doesn't even need to be a good fighter at 6th level, as long as he's being any kind of fighter at all. The real goal, when all is said and done, is that you'll have an effective kill condition while your enemies are wandering around in your combination of a sleet storm and an entangle. Fighters and battlefield control make an incredibly potent combination, and that's still true when the fighter is crazy suboptimal.

Also, seriously, dire wolves. More generally, all summons after SNA III. At three you get the wolves, at four you get giant crocodiles, and after that you can rely entirely on rashemi elementals of various kinds. You can also shoot animal growth at 5th level spells, and that spell is frigging amazing. If animal companions aren't as good as fighters at that level, I suspect that animal growth pushes it back to the druid's side. If you cast a few summons beforehand, maybe a giant crocodile or two, that might as well be the end of the battle.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, well druids aren't T1 for nothing. And more to the point, they are T1 with the highest floor, hands down.

And yes, wildshaping into a flying form is exactly the kind of advice that should be given to novice druid players. I think we are in agreement now :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Yeah, well druids aren't T1 for nothing. And more to the point, they are T1 with the highest floor, hands down.

And yes, wildshaping into a flying form is exactly the kind of advice that should be given to novice druid players. I think we are in agreement now :smallsmile:
True enough. Offensive druid forms just aren't good enough until level 8, and that's only really amazing if you have bite of the were x on. Still, going into brown bear mode and ravaging the countryside is good fun, and you probably have enough wild shape duration to pull it off without too much downside. Also, it's a bit high level, but dire tortoise form is frigging amazing. It's like free 24 hour super foresight on druids. As a bonus, I'd actually been a bit dismissive of elemental form for high level play, but air elemental is pretty sweet. It bypasses the hoverless downside of legendary eagle, and a high dexterity mod is pretty amazing. Still, you've gotta love a good desmodu hunting bat. In addition to everything I said, you can also toss enhance wild shape on them for hours/level 120 foot blindsight. That's some fantastic sensory ability.

[Komatik]

Hm. Can you elemental shape into a Rashemi elemental?

[eggynack]

Hm. Can you elemental shape into a Rashemi elemental?
I'm pretty sure that that'd be a no. It looks like all orglashes and thomils are templated versions of air and earth elementals, and alternate form explicitly disallows taking on templates with the line, "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template." It's possible that they're creatures independent of template, in addition to the templated version, but the elemental shape ability explicitly that you can only become an air, earth, fire, or water elemental. Thus, I think that you'd have to get there through the template, and you're unable to. That's my logic, anyways. If you are somehow able to do that, presumably by defining an orglash as an independent creature, and taking the broadest possible definition of "air elemental", then you could also become a storm elemental. I'm doubtful though.