[Pathfinder] Help to build a gestalt char

[EvilPig]

Hello,

I am looking for help to build a gestalt char. The char start at lvl 1 so i need something is good to play.
My group is little (we are 3) so we choose to use gestalt roles to cover all rules in party.

I have choose Rogue/Ranger classes and Half-Orc race.

I have rolled those stats:

15-14-14-10-11-16

After that i can move up to 2 points from stats.

I should cover the role of damage dealer (but since we are only 3 i cant do a build where my main damage is from sneak attack), i have to do all rogues things (scout, disable device, stealth action) and finally i need a bit of social skills.


Thanks in advice for any answare

[Kudaku]

You've decided to make a rogue/ranger, but you can't rely on sneak attack to do damage... Any chance you're willing to move a little on the class selection? Urban Ranger does pretty much everything the rogue/ranger does and it would free up the other side of the gestalt for something else.

Edit: Actually, before going nuts with the optimization here... Any idea what your other players are playing? It would be helpful to get an idea of the power level of the party :smallsmile:

[EvilPig]

One is Mage/Alchemist and the other seem to be Cleric/Fighter


Urban ranger seem cool.

Even i cant focus all my damage on sneak attack i still can do damage with it since we have a mage that help with his summon and the fighter will be in melee. And finally at lvl 4 can get a pet to help with flanking.

Maybe a good build to help me deliver sneak attack with arcery will be cool. Else i will be in melee of course.

[Kudaku]

I see. I find personally that sneak attack and ranged attacks is tricky to pull off well until you can reliably use Improved Invisibility, since you can't take advantage of the traditional ways (ie flanking, feint) of sneak attacking.

My first thought was actually something like Dawnflower Dervish Bard / Sorcerer. The bard provides tons of damage (either melee or ranged) and enough skill points to cover the rogue basics, sorcerer provides spells and some utility and your charisma should be excellent so face skills should come naturally.

Your stat priorities would be dexterity = charisma > constitution > intelligence > wisdom >>> strength for a melee build, move strength up a bit for a ranged build.

The downside would be a fairly narrow range of spells known, a d8 HD, and poor fortitude saves. Hm...

[EvilPig]

Dawnflower Dervish Bard


The manual with that subtype is not allowed.

I forgot to say that allowed manuals are only:
Core Rulebook, Advanced Player Guide, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic

In the campaign we are going to play fireguns and oriental weapons are not allowed

[Krazzman]

What I think personally to be awesome for a Rogue-like char is:
Human:
Ranger1/Rogue X/Uncanny Trickster X//Sorcerer [Bloodline: Mutated Arcane: Sage] (maybe going ranger 2 for archery combat style)

Stat weighting:
Int >= Dex > Con > Str = Cha = Wis.
With your stats I would have:
15-14-14-10-11-16
Str: 14
Dex: 16 OR 15
Con: 14
Int: 15+2 = 17 OR 16 + 2 = 18
Wis: 11
Cha: 10
You get, except for level one, 8 + 3 (17 Int) or 8 + 4 (18 Int) skillpoints.
2 Skills that you want as sorcerer: Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

Favoured Class Bonus:
Human Sorcerer Alternative: 1 spell/level known.

Feats:
Human: Combat Casting
1st: Point Blank Shot
(2nd: Precise Shot)
3rd: (if not taken Precise Shot then now, else: Deadly Aim[I am unsure if this works with spells])

Ranger gives you:
Weapon Profiencies, Favoured Enemy and Spot and Listen as Class Skills.
Rogue gives you:
Sneak attack, evasion and trapfinding, as well as other stuff.
Sage Sorcerer gives you:
Spells. They are just awesome enough, take some illusions, conjurations and transmutions and literally go to town.

Get Googles of Sniping to enhance your "Sneak attack Range".


Maybe add the scout archetype for your rogue levels, or add some levels of arcane archer.

[EvilPig]

With what lvl progression? Also why take cha 10 and sorcerer? What is the point?

What about something of more melee build?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I would also suggest Dervish Bard for damage dealing/the standard rogue tricks. It's from Ultimate Combat, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem there. However, while the above poster recommended combining it with a Sorcerer, I'm going to recommend combining it with a Paladin(Warrior of the Holy Light) so you can buff yourself and your friends, and gain Charisma to all your saves after level 2.

Your key stats would be Dex-Cha-Con-Int-Str-Wis. Make the Divine Bond your weapon so you can put a serious hurting on some bad guys.


The one (frustrating) drawback, is you won't be able to take dervish dance as a feat, which would seriously reduce your MAD.

[Baroncognito]

I should cover the role of damage dealer (but since we are only 3 i cant do a build where my main damage is from sneak attack

Why not? You'll get an animal companion, and as long as it's small or larger, it'll provide flanking.

[Krazzman]

I would also suggest Dervish Bard for damage dealing/the standard rogue tricks. It's from Ultimate Combat, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem there. However, while the above poster recommended combining it with a Sorcerer, I'm going to recommend combining it with a Paladin(Warrior of the Holy Light) so you can buff yourself and your friends, and gain Charisma to all your saves after level 2.

Your key stats would be Dex-Cha-Con-Int-Str-Wis. Make the Divine Bond your weapon so you can put a serious hurting on some bad guys.


The one (frustrating) drawback, is you won't be able to take dervish dance as a feat, which would seriously reduce your MAD.

Sorcerer can buff too. More importantly: Haste.

Sage Bloodline (found in Ultimate Magic under the mutated bloodlines [it's the arcane one]) gives you Intelligence as your casting stat instead of charisma.

Alone the combination of Rogue + Sorcerer can give you quite some bonus.
Since I am not quite clear how PrClasses work with Gestalt I would recommend the following progression:

on one site: Sage Sorcerer 20.
on the other Scout Rogue or something similar that brings you joy, maybe dip Ranger 1 for Weapon Profs and some other abilities and maybe 10 levels in Arcane Trickster for Surprise Spells (can be reached by level 14).

If you want to go melee: I would still recommend my array. you can decide if you want dex or str 15 the other 14 or 16 and the other 14. But 18 in Int is probably better for this route.

To list what sorcerer CAN give you:
Sneak attack at range (can you say hi to a 10d6 + sneak attack Snowball in a level 2 slot?)
Buff spells (+4 enhancement to a stat, haste, temp hp, ac, immunity against mind affecting stuff...)
Utility: Invisibility, Fly, Waterbreath...

So to summarize:

Ranger 1/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 14//Sage Sorcerer 14.
OR
Ranger 2/Rogue 12//Sage Sorcerer 14.
Favoured Enemy, Track, Trapfinding, Evasion + other rogue stuff and spells.
As a Human you have:
12 Cantrips known.
7 1st level known. + identify
7 2nd level known. + invisibility
6 3rd level known. + dispel magic
6 4th level known. + dimension door
5 5th level known. + overland flight
3 6th level known. + true seeing
1 7th level known.

From the moment on when you get dimension door, you can take the feats for utilizing it.
My advise would be: Haste + the Dimensional Warrior line of feats to get to flank with YOURSELF over the whole battlefield.

[Kudaku]

I would also suggest Dervish Bard for damage dealing/the standard rogue tricks. It's from Ultimate Combat, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem there. However, while the above poster recommended combining it with a Sorcerer, I'm going to recommend combining it with a Paladin(Warrior of the Holy Light) so you can buff yourself and your friends, and gain Charisma to all your saves after level 2.

Your key stats would be Dex-Cha-Con-Int-Str-Wis. Make the Divine Bond your weapon so you can put a serious hurting on some bad guys.


The one (frustrating) drawback, is you won't be able to take dervish dance as a feat, which would seriously reduce your MAD.

Ah, I meant the Dawnflower Dervish (from Inner Sea Magic), not the Dervish Dancer (from UC). The Dawnflower Dervish is referred to as the Dervish of Dawn on the PFSRD for legal reasons.

I suggested Sorcerer since the extra spell slots would give a good bit of flexibility, including the ability to drop some AoE damage when needed. You won't be quite as flexible as much as a prepared caster, but I wanted to keep the build as non-MAD as possible and with the OP's stat line then Dex and Cha seemed to be the limit.

That having been said, paladin is a very solid gestalt class for either of the dervish bard archetypes. Actually a Muse-touched Dawnflower Dervish bard/oath of vengeance paladin with his points in the racial favored class option focusing on archery... Jesus, imagine the Allegro-enhanced Inspire Courage Rapid Fire Smite Attacks.

No matter though, Dervish Dance is ruled out which cancels a lot of interesting builds.

Erm... I'll get back to you :smallsmile:

Hm... I still think bard is a good fit for what you're trying to do, but I may just have latched on to that and now I'm havign trouble letting go :smallbiggrin:

How about Archaeologist Bard (UC) / Oath of Vengeance (UM) Paladin? The archaeologist does lose out on a lot of nice bard stuff, but they're very roguish. I'd personally consider the luck ability and bard spells an excellent trade for the rogue sneak attack damage, since you're worried about getting flanks etc.

The paladin levels brings your saves into the stratosphere, gives you full BAB and armor proficiency which you hopefully will not need. Consider the Divine Hunter archetype from UC if you want to be a ranged combatant, since you won't need Heavy Armor Proficiency anyway.

[EvilPig]

I like Krazzman build but i dont understand what kind of weapons i'll need to use and how to use sorcerer side. I mean just to buff or event to burst?


About paladin i cant take that since campaign is legal/evil

[Krazzman]

I like Krazzman build but i dont understand what kind of weapons i'll need to use and how to use sorcerer side. I mean just to buff or event to burst?


About paladin i cant take that since campaign is legal/evil

It's easy:
if you want track, martial weapon prof and favoured enemy
take a level of Ranger and use a simple or martial weapon you like.

if you want pure rogue//sorcerer then go with any weapon the rogue gives you.

In melee you either take 1 weapon (2 handed so that you can "freely" cast without having to drop a weapon) or a crossbow (Composite bow for archery if you go with a ranger dip).

Weapon-choice is up to you but a 18-20 x2 weapon might be beneficial.
Another way you "could" go is Rogue/Magus but I am not that experienced with magi.

Hope this helps.

[EvilPig]

What about with something with full bab? This combo can also work with urban ranger? Maybe with archery style and greater sword?

[Krazzman]

What about with something with full bab? This combo can also work with urban ranger? Maybe with archery style and greater sword?

Full BAB? If you think Urban ranger is sufficient for handling traps and such stuff then yes. Rogue is basically there for sneak attack.

Do you lose casting with Urban Ranger? If not then let the 11 in Wis and grab Owls Wisdom on either a Wand or as a Page of Spell Knowledge. With your 4th Level increase you can have a 12 there, paired with Owl's wisdom this should suffice for your ranger casting until high levels where you can wish for your wisdom to be increased.

[EvilPig]

Since everyone suggested me a caster/phisical build, how do you see a full phisical build? I lose much with that kind of build?

[Krazzman]

Since everyone suggested me a caster/phisical build, how do you see a full phisical build? I lose much with that kind of build?

You gain some and lose many things, especially cool stuff.

What you gain depends on what class you take. An Urban Ranger//Barbarian can be quite good in combat or an Rogue//Barbarian can be vicious with the right feats and ragepowers but both builds lack utility what a one site of casting would give you.

In Gestalt, most of the time from what I got when reading about it, you want to have as many as possible of: all 3 good saves, high bab (does not necessarily need full bab), casting and skillpoints.

The Rogue//Sorcerer I presented you got:
Good Ref, Good Will, Bad Fort (2 out of 3), average BaB, spontaneous casting and Skillpoints.

The Urban Ranger//Sorcerer would have
All 3 Good saves, full BaB, Some bonuses through ranger, spontaneous and (mediocre) prepared casting and skillpoints. But would be a slight bit MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) due to needing Wis for Ranger casting. For the price of some Skillpoints though you could change the Bloodline.
For Sorcerers who want to have another casting stat can take the following two bloodlines:
Mutated Celestial (Empyreal or similar) gives you casting via Wisdom (would make a decent mix with Zen Archer Monk/Arcane Archer//Empyreal Sorcerer)
Mutated Arcane (Sage) gives casting via Intellect.

While a Ranger//Barbarian would only have:
Good Fort and Ref, Bad Will (again 2 of 3), full BaB, and skillpoints + mediocre casting (either that or our Ranger really doesn't play it effective). As such a Paladin is most of the times a rather good pick for Gestalting due to his Cha to saves ability and "solid" base (full BaB, nice tricks and some good spells).

You want your two sites to complement each other as much as possible.

A Fighter//Rogue gives the rogue Feats and Full BaB (and HP).