[3.5] Gish help?

[Valwyn]

I made a battle sorcerer gish and I'm quite happy with the basic build. I managed to get +19 BAB and CL 17 (19 with Martial Arcanist), but I'm not too sure which spells to pick or which feats (4 normal and 2 fighter) to take other than Extend Spell. I thought Silent and Still just in case, he gets grappled/silenced.

The idea is he is mostly a self buffer with some utility/control spells. Many of his spells take a Swift or Immediate so he can also attack. This is his current spell list.
0: 8
- Prestidigitation
- Light
- Detect Magic
- Read Magic
- Message
- Mending
- Mage Hand
- Arcane Mark

1: 4
- Shield
- Swift Expeditious Retreat
- Blockade
- Grease

2: 4
- Wings of Cover
- Resist Energy
- Wraith Strike
- Lesser Energy Surge

3: 4
- Haste
- Dispel Magic
- Greater Magic Weapon
- Anticipate Teleportation or Permeable Form

4: 3
- Dimension Door
- Greater Mirror Image
- Orb of Force

5: 3
- Swift Etherealness
- Improved Blink
- Wall of Stone

6: 3
- Antimagic Field or Greater Heroism
- Disintegrate

7: 2
- Summon Monster VII
- Arcane Spellsurge

8: 1
- Mind Blank

What do you think, Playground? Is the list okay or could it use some work?

[A_S]

Spells: Your selection is excellent overall. Unless it's banned, though, I would never leave the house without Celerity.

Feats: Arcane Strike is mandatory for gishes. Persistent Spell is pretty good, even without cost reduction cheese (e.g., persisted Wraithstrike is totally worth an 8th level slot). Minor Shapeshift is pretty awesome as an endless supply of temporary HP.

Build: Getting your BAB up to +19 is impressive, but it's in no way worth giving up 9ths or the spells known you lose to Battle Sorcerer. You sure you wouldn't rather revise the build toward spellcasting a little bit?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Battle Sorcerer is extremely bad, considering what you gain from it is not worth the spells it loses. A gish build should have as few levels in the base casting class already, there's no reason to give up spellcasting for your whole career to get better BAB/HD for just a few levels.

The standard Sorcerer gish build goes Paladin (or some variant) 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. That gets 9th level spells and a +16 BAB at 20th level. You don't need any more BAB than that, because +16 is the minimum for four attacks/round. You can use Persistent Wraithstrike to consistently hit, and buffs for more attack bonus if necessary. You want to have 9th level spells, especially since you can spend those slots to persist lower level spells.

An alternative to Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4 would be something like Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Sorcerer 2/ Fighter or Crusader 1/ Human or Elf Paragon 2, if you don't want to use Paladin. Note that Sacred Exorcist is extremely necessary to get 9th/+16 at 20th, and it requires a good alignment. You should probably use (Greater) Luminous Armor anyway, since it's the only armor bonus spell that benefits from Abjurant Champion, and that's a Sanctified spell so it also requires a good alignment. Paladin has some nice Cha synergy, so it's the best natural fit for the build.

For gish feats, you want Minor Shapeshift (CM), Arcane Strike (CW), Ancestral Relic (for this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4)), Power Attack, Persistent Spell (CD), Practiced Spellcaster (CA), and possibly consider Combat Reflexes and/or Improved Toughness (CW) and/or Defensive Sweep (PH2). If you're using a Dragonblood race (Silverbrow Human, Draconic template bought off, spend a feat, etc.) then pick up Practical Metamagic: Persistent Spell (RotD). You can get the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution level for Paladin 1 to get Inspire Courage, use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 sub level for Draconic Heritage (battle dragon for sonic), take Dragonfire Inspiration, and get a Badge of Valor (MIC) and a Harmonizing weapon (MIC) to add +2d6 sonic damage to everyone's attacks.

Note that with Sacred Exorcist you should also consider Divine Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight). Another option would be to use Illumian for your race (RoD), and get the Naenhoon sigil to spend those turn uses to Persist two spells each day (Draconic Polymorph: War Troll and Bite of the Werebear). With Practical Metamagic you can have Persistent Thunderlance (SC) with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it, as well as Persistent Fire Shield (twice) and Persistent Greater Invisibility. Since the spells you're persisting will only be cast 1/day, you can put them on your Ancestral Relic Runestaff instead of spending spells known on them.

[Valwyn]

Spells: Your selection is excellent overall. Unless it's banned, though, I would never leave the house without Celerity.

It is a good idea, but I tend to stay away from certain spells people might think are cheesy/broken.


Feats: Arcane Strike is mandatory for gishes. Persistent Spell is pretty good, even without cost reduction cheese (e.g., persisted Wraithstrike is totally worth an 8th level slot). Minor Shapeshift is pretty awesome as an endless supply of temporary HP.

I forgot about Arcane Strike, thanks. :smallsmile: I'll think about Persist and Minor Shapeshift.


Build: Getting your BAB up to +19 is impressive, but it's in no way worth giving up 9ths or the spells known you lose to Battle Sorcerer. You sure you wouldn't rather revise the build toward spellcasting a little bit?

Maybe I should, but I also want him to be able to fight competently in an AMF.


The standard Sorcerer gish build goes Paladin (or some variant) 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8.

Yeah, I've heard of it. I went Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Swift Blade 3/Spellsword 1/Dragon Slayer 1/Eldritch Knight 5 instead.


Note that Sacred Exorcist is extremely necessary to get 9th/+16 at 20th, and it requires a good alignment. You should probably use (Greater) Luminous Armor anyway, since it's the only armor bonus spell that benefits from Abjurant Champion, and that's a Sanctified spell so it also requires a good alignment. Paladin has some nice Cha synergy, so it's the best natural fit for the build.

That's a good idea, but it doesn't fit the character. It's still good to know.


For gish feats, you want Minor Shapeshift (CM), Arcane Strike (CW), Ancestral Relic (for this trick), Power Attack, Persistent Spell (CD), Practiced Spellcaster (CA), and possibly consider Combat Reflexes and/or Improved Toughness (CW) and/or Defensive Sweep (PH2).

Those are good suggestions. :smallsmile: I'll check them out.


Note that with Sacred Exorcist you should also consider Divine Might.

Sorcerers can't learn that spell. At least that I know.


Another option would be to use Illumian for your race (RoD), and get the Naenhoon sigil to spend those turn uses to Persist two spells each day (Draconic Polymorph: War Troll and Bite of the Werebear). With Practical Metamagic you can have Persistent Thunderlance (SC) with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it, as well as Persistent Fire Shield (twice) and Persistent Greater Invisibility. Since the spells you're persisting will only be cast 1/day, you can put them on your Ancestral Relic Runestaff instead of spending spells known on them.

That's a great combo. :smalltongue:
Only bad thing is he's a LN human, and I can't really see him fighting with a staff. He's more of a sword guy. Not the best weapon, I know, but it suits him better.

Thanks for the advice, guys. :smallsmile:

[A_S]

Sorcerers can't learn that spell. At least that I know.

You're thinking of Divine Power. Divine Might is a feat that lets you burn turn attempts to add Cha to damage. But you need a turning pool to use it.

So, your goal for the build is to make a sorc-based gish without the LG/divine flavor of the sorcadin? That can be tough, but I'd probably recommend going Sorc 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 over your current complicated setup. You'd still miss out on 9th level spells by one level, but at least you wouldn't lose more spells known from Battle Sorcerer, and seriously, Swiftblade class features are the bomb. Be an elf or a LA+0 outsider for the martial weapon proficiency, or else burn a feat for it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a great combo. :smalltongue:
Only bad thing is he's a LN human, and I can't really see him fighting with a staff. He's more of a sword guy. Not the best weapon, I know, but it suits him better.

Thanks for the advice, guys. :smallsmile:

A Runestaff (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a) isn't necessarily a weapon, it's a tool, it gives you more spells known. For a Sorcerer, especially going Battle Sorcerer, you need all the extra spells known that you can get. You just spend your own spell slots to cast the spells it contains as though they were spells known, though each can only be cast a limited number of times per day. Adding a given spell to a runestaff is extremely cheap, and if you checked the link I gave earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) you'll see that you can upgrade an ancestral relic for roughly 3/8 or 37.5% of the normal cost. Granted you need to be good aligned to take Ancestral Relic, but Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) is a suitable substitute.

[herrhauptmann]

Maybe I should, but I also want him to be able to fight competently in an AMF.

At 19 BAB, you're probably already a competent melee warrior. Potentially a little squishy with regards to HP. I'm not sure what your AC will be like either.




Yeah, I've heard of it. I went Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Swift Blade 3/Spellsword 1/Dragon Slayer 1/Eldritch Knight 5 instead.

Which version of Dodge are you taking for dragonslayer/swiftblade?
There's a few alternates, all of which state they can be used in place of regular Dodge for prereqs. Only catch is that some of them don't actually let you declare a Dodge Target, so things like Robilars Gambit (which requires that target) don't work very well.

Desert Wind Dodge (if taken after taking regular dodge, regular can be swapped out for another feat)
Expeditious Dodge (works well with Swiftblade abilities)
Midnight Dodge (requires essentia for it to be more useful than regular dodge)


It's an interesting set of prestige classes. Mind if I ask why you chose those ones? It seems like you're going for a paladin/judge build, am I right?
If dragon magazine is on the table, I know there was at least one LN paladin variant.

[Valwyn]

You're thinking of Divine Power.

Yes, yes I was. :smallsigh:


That can be tough, but I'd probably recommend going Sorc 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 over your current complicated setup.

That works pretty well. It's squishier, but has an extra spell known per level and better Reflexes.


A Runestaff isn't necessarily a weapon, it's a tool, it gives you more spells known. For a Sorcerer, especially going Battle Sorcerer, you need all the extra spells known that you can get.

That's actually a good point.
I did follow your link. I'll try to get one of those staves.


At 19 BAB, you're probably already a competent melee warrior. Potentially a little squishy with regards to HP. I'm not sure what your AC will be like either.

He gets to wear a mithral breast plate, so that should help. His HP is a bit low for melee, though. 7d10+5d8+8d6 means a max of 158 HP. On the other hand, he has decent saves (except for Ref): Fort 13, Ref 6, Will 16.



Which version of Dodge are you taking for dragonslayer/swiftblade?

Just regular Dodge, but I might change it later.


It's an interesting set of prestige classes. Mind if I ask why you chose those ones? It seems like you're going for a paladin/judge build, am I right?

Not exactly. He is a bit militant, but he isn't all that good/interested in others. He is, however, pretty pissed at the mindflayers for messing with his head years ago, which is why he trained both close combat and his mind (read: Will saves and Courage Aura).
That's just fluff, though. OOC, I wanted to try my hand at gish making and used some classes I thought would work well together. The build is not optimal, but I think I like it.


If dragon magazine is on the table, I know there was at least one LN paladin variant.

I don't have Dragon.