Arcane Thesis: What spell to master?

[Arc_knight25]

I noticed there was a thread about this a little while ago.

I noticed Magic missle and Enervate with the Fell line was on the list for spells to use it with.

I find this feat is a good feat to build around. There are so many possibilities in my eyes at least for ways to use this.

What Buff/Debuff/crowd control would be good to use with this feat and with what Metamagic feats would you also try to get?

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a nice build focused around arcane thesis on magic missile, magic missile mage, and the fell line of metamagic effects to effectively apply debuffs with zero save.

An opening spell that applies a -4 penalty to strength, the shaken condition, and a negative level to up to 7 enemies without a save or attack roll is brutal for debuffing. Considering it can be done from a 2nd or 3rd level slot, you can then quicken it.

It's -5 to melee attacks, -3 to all other attacks, decreased melee damage, -3 to saves, -3 to skill checks, loss of a spell and spellcaster level, and 6+1d4 damage.

And shield doesn't even stop it anymore due to force missile mage.

[Karnith]

For debuffing, I believe that Kelgore's Grave Mist is a pretty good low-level metamagic seed, and the UPS Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208620) used metamagic on spells like Raging Flame to impose status conditions. In both cases, the Fell X feats are fairly good choices for imposing status conditions, and Sculpt Spell and/or Widen Spell to control the area that the spells effect.

[ahenobarbi]

Orb of Fire. You can apply Searing Spell to damage even critters immune to fire. And stun folks on failed Fort save.

[Xervous]

Incantatrix for that juicy -1 to all metamagic costs.

Wings of flurry as our base spell. Our goal here is to make the spell near impossible to save against for its dazing effect and the other nasties we add.

feats: 6 from levels, 4 metamagic from incantatrix, 1 from otyugh hole

Sanctum spell
Arcane thesis: wings of flurry
Envelope the wall (as prereq)
Iron will
maximize spell +3
Irresistible spell +4
invisible spell +0
Energy substitution(electricity) +0
born of three thunders +0
entangling spell +2
repeat spell +3


So numbers...

Irresistible spell is a +4 adjust for +10 to the spell's save DC. Incantatrix brings this down to 3.
all +3s go to 2s, then +1 with arcane thesis.
all +2s go down to +1s, and arcane thesis removes their adjustment entirely.

apply Irresistible, invisible, energy substitution x2, born of three thunders, entangling, repeat, heightened +2.

+2 Irresistible, +1 repeat, +1 heighten, +0 entangling, -1 invisible -1 energy sub -1 born of three thunders


Now what does this monstrosity give us?

Well first off its cast out of a FOURTH LEVEL SPELL SLOT.
Repeat makes it go off again in the same spot next round without you having to do anything.
Entangling spell entangles everything hit by this spell (regardless of save), they move at half speed, -2 to attack rolls, -4 to dex (what we're looking for here), and a silly thing about concentration checks to cast spells.
energy substitution is just in here to get us to born of three thunders.
Invisible is a free -1 here.
Born of three thunders: now we have ANOTHER reflex save vs. prone and a fort save vs. stunned.


A casual level 15 sorcerer flinging this bad boy out of a 4th level slot with a modest 32 charisma and daze immunity.

DC: 10 + (4th level spell) + (10 irresistible) + (11 charisma) = DC 35 Ref vs. damage and daze, Ref vs. prone, and fort vs. stun.

I could tack on more things, but it just seems excessive.

[peacenlove]

I second Kelgore fire bolt. Magic missile has SR which you must spend additional resources to overcome 100% of the time, and golems still hinder you.
Can be coupled with searing spell.

Orbs are in 80-85% of the situation more efficient than KFB. Ray deflection, fire healing (rare ability shared by some golems and old 3.0 edition monsters), (improved) mettle (given by a standar in C.Champion I think) and (minor) spell turning are some of the defenses that stop it.

EDIT:

<Stuff>

Note that Irresistible Spell is from Kindoms of Kalamar, and not in a list that many DM's approve. For an alternative I suggest Twin spell.

[ahenobarbi]

Xervous if you want to build around wings of flurry Spellwarp Sniper PrC is very nice.

It transforms the spell into 30ft range ray and remove save with no spell slot increase. Apply:
- Arcane Thesis
- Split ray
- Extend spell
...

And enjoy :smallsmile: only problem remaining is infinite-SR creatures (like golems).

[Xervous]

The main reason for focusing on wings of flurry is because its an AoE save or suck where practically nothing resists its end condition (dazed). By turning it into a ray, you remove the most delicious part of it: the fact that it can hit multiple targets.


Uber glitterdust.

incantatrix
Arcane thesis: glitterdust
Snowcasting
Flast frost +1
fell drain +2
extend +1
persist +6
invisible +0
energy sub (cold) +0
lord of the uttercold +0
practical metamagic persist

persist +3, fell drain +0, flash frost +0, extend +0, invisible -1, energy sub (cold) -1, lord of the uttercold -1.

Level 2 spell. Enemy fails save and is blinded for two days.

[ahenobarbi]

The main reason for focusing on wings of flurry is because its an AoE save or suck where practically nothing resists its end condition (dazed).

You still can use regular version. But turning it into ray is handy when facing enemies with high will save and enemies that you want more than 30 ft away from you.

[KillianHawkeye]

Basically... what's your favorite spell? If you can think of any reason for a character to focus on a single spell, then taking Arcane Thesis is pretty much a no-brainer (assuming the use of metamagic)!

[Mithril Leaf]

I like Mage's Lucubration. Why pick one spell to focus on, when you can get all the 5th level ones you want?

[Snowbluff]

I like Mage's Lucubration. Why pick one spell to focus on, when you can get all the 5th level ones you want?

On the same note, Arcane Fusion.

Also, Cloud of Knives is pretty good.

[Xervous]

once you start fiddling around with arcane thesised arcane fusion, you are likely to near the realm of the stutter caster...

[Yuukale]

I'll just leave this here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10891237&postcount=20)

[koboldish]

You can use it on silent image. Look up the killer gnome build. Shadowcraft Mage has some serious cheese here.

[Arc_knight25]

With the spells that let you cast 2 spells how does the Metamagic affect the spells within the spell?

Example:

Maximized Arcane Fusion casting Magic missle and Ice Storm?

Are both spells effected by whatever metamagic you put on Arcane fusion?

[Urpriest]

With the spells that let you cast 2 spells how does the Metamagic affect the spells within the spell?

Example:

Maximized Arcane Fusion casting Magic missle and Ice Storm?

Are both spells effected by whatever metamagic you put on Arcane fusion?

Nope, just any variable rolls in Arcane Fusion itself. Just like a Maximized Summon Monster doesn't maximize the creature's attacks.

The idea of Arcane Thesis Arcane Fusion is you use it for things like Quicken, Twin, and Repeat.

[Arc_knight25]

I get it now.

So a quickened Arcane fusion is like getting a quickened 1st and 4th lvl spell.

Now with twin and repeat, do you need to be casting the same 1st and 4th level spells?

Can you use metamagic on the spells within Arcane fusion?

I can see how this is useful for getting buffs out quickly.

[chardyks09]

For arcane thesis it says "the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal." so I have my thesis on fireball if I say gave it maximize and Energy Substitution. Would it come out as +3 for max. +0 for Energy Sub. then -2 form the two feats for a total of +1. Or would it just be +2 max. +0 energy sub.

It only says the spell cant go below its original level nothing about meta-magic level adjustment going below 0.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are a wizard: orb of fire with arcane thesis and elven spell lore. Now you can prep it as any damage type you want, it will usually be force, but sometimes it will be acid or sonic, or piercing, or something else (maybe vile if you are resistant to thrown DMGs). Now you have a fine base for metamagic.

Enervation is a popular seed. No save, how many HD do you have? Then die.

Shivering touch is fun. What's your dex? Is it less than 18+1.5d6? Then you are paralyzed, why don't I set you on the campfire now. Might want to energy sub it since it's cold damage.

Wings of flurry, big old area force damage.

[Vizzerdrix]

Launch Bolt. Set it up right, and it'll out damage anything else you'll get for spells before epic. As a cantrip.

[lsfreak]

then -2 form the two feats for a total of +1. Or would it just be +2 max. +0 energy sub.

It only says the spell cant go below its original level nothing about meta-magic level adjustment going below 0.

It's +1, that's why spells like Invisible and Energy Sub are so great with Arcane Thesis. Many DMs houserule it, though, that you can't go below +0 to prevent exactly this.

[Segev]

Launch Bolt. Set it up right, and it'll out damage anything else you'll get for spells before epic. As a cantrip.

I would dearly love to see some ideas on how to do this, because I'm drawing a blank.

[Cheiromancer]

I would dearly love to see some ideas on how to do this, because I'm drawing a blank.

There is a good discussion on the thread named killer cantrip (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5826.0) on the Brilliant Gameologists boards.

The problem is that launch bolt does not work according to RAW. Since the crossbow bolt is a material component, it is expended during the casting of the spell; thus, there is nothing to shoot at your enemy. It should be a focus, instead. One that will possible be destroyed when it hits the target. But if it is a focus, eschew materials won't work.

(The same thing holds for the "material component" of simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm); it should be an expendable focus.)

There are several other ambiguities in the spell, any of which could give a suspicious DM a perfectly reasonable way to rule the 'colossal bolt' exploit illegal without invoking rule 0.

[Segev]

I don't see it list it as a material component, but as the target of the spell. Interestingly, it specifies "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow" (emphasis mine), so it would require that you be able to wield the light crossbow in question...but I'll take a look at that thread. Thanks!

Edit: Never mind, Spell Compendium version does, indeed, list it as a material component.

Still, I think that works by the RAW, because material components might be expended, but the spell is Instananeous, so it does what it says it does, and the bolt is expended in the process.

It also does still say "as if you fired it," so you would have to have the capability of wielding the light crossbow in question.

Sadly, it also names the bolt as the target of the spell; I am thus unsure that most of the nasty metamagics you can add would really do anything. No empower, no maximize, no fell drain...

Twin Spell would work, though, as it expends the material component once while doing the spell effect (firing the bolt) twice. Craft Contingent Spell would let you put 50 gp (market price) per bolt you wanted to fire simultaneously on a given trigger condition.

[Fouredged Sword]

You cast reach chain launch bolt using colossal crossbow bolts.

You deal 6d8 damage each and fire 20 bolts at 20th level. That increases to 22 bolts and uses two slots lower with arcane thesis.

People have reduced it back to a 0th slot with reducers. It gets silly.

Worst come to worst, firing 20 normal crossbow bolts makes for a good quickened spell to reduce mooks or remove mirror images.

A RAW reading of the spell doesn't make it function right, as you can fire a crossbow bolt, but only AT another crossbow bolt already in your possession. You launch the bolt at a target of your choosing, and the spell clearly lists the target is a crossbow bolt in your possession.

[Agincourt]

If you are a wizard: orb of fire with arcane thesis and elven spell lore. Now you can prep it as any damage type you want, it will usually be force, but sometimes it will be acid or sonic, or piercing, or something else (maybe vile if you are resistant to thrown DMGs). Now you have a fine base for metamagic.


I don't think you can select force, piercing, or vile for Elven Spell Lore. Elven Spell Lore says a player, "can prepare the spell multiple times, selecting the same or a different energy type for it with each preparation." I think it needs to be one of the 5 energy types.

[Segev]

Hm. Looking into it more, yeah, you can do some neat stuff with it for higher spell levels.

Recall that Arcane Thesis also gives +2 CL with the favored spell. So at level 20, your Reach Chain Launch Bolt is launching 22 bolts. Add Split Ray for +1 spell level and double the bolts! (You still need all 44 bolts, but you target two of them, one each, with a reach Chain Launch Bolt ray, and then each bolt Chains to another 21--wait, no. Drat. Just re-checked Chain; it caps at 20.

Still, it arcs to additional targets based on your CL; you get the first one for free. So you get 21 bolts per Reach Chain Launch Bolt ray, and with 2 rays, that's 42 total for a 4th level spell slot.

Heck, even at level 6, the earliest you can get Arcane Thesis and thus make this cheap enough to put in your highest-level spell slot (3rd), it's Reach Chain Launch Bolt for 1+CL=1+6+2=9 bolts. Level 7, your wizard is Chaining it with a 4th level slot for 18 bolts.

Oh, and I think (though I could be wrong) that, since it's chaining the launch, you only roll once to hit (even if targeting separate targets). Which means...True Strike? --no, shoot. Reach makes it a ray, which does technically require a ranged touch attack on your bolt. While that's not an issue overall, it does men you'd get the +20 to hit on your effort to hit a bolt that isn't dodging. Is there a way to finess this so you can use True Strike, then save it for a moment while you ray-touch your bolts, and use it on the attack with the bolts?

[Deox]

I don't think you can select force, piercing, or vile for Elven Spell Lore. Elven Spell Lore says a player, "can prepare the spell multiple times, selecting the same or a different energy type for it with each preparation." I think it needs to be one of the 5 energy types.

It's weird, actually. The first statement does not include the qualifier "energy"; it only specifies "type". In this instance, type does, in fact, include piercing, vile, etc. The second statement, however, does explicitly state "energy type".

[Agincourt]

It's weird, actually. The first statement does not include the qualifier "energy"; it only specifies "type". In this instance, type does, in fact, include piercing, vile, etc. The second statement, however, does explicitly state "energy type".

It's sloppy editing, but that's how I would rule it. The inclusion of "energy type" in the second statement only makes sense if Elven Spell Lore is limited to energy types.

[Deophaun]

A RAW reading of the spell doesn't make it function right, as you can fire a crossbow bolt, but only AT another crossbow bolt already in your possession. You launch the bolt at a target of your choosing, and the spell clearly lists the target is a crossbow bolt in your possession.
No quite.

"Target" is an odd pseudo-term. It can mean the Target line in a spell, or it can mean common English language term, and they are both used in spell descriptions. Rays, for instance, talk of targets all the time, but they almost universally lack a Target line (rust ray is the rare exception).

So RAW, launch bolt works, but only because of built in ambiguities that allow it to work.

[Deox]

It's sloppy editing, but that's how I would rule it. The inclusion of "energy type" in the second statement only makes sense if Elven Spell Lore is limited to energy types.

I'm inclined to agree, and would rule the same.

[Vizzerdrix]

Reach, Chained, invisible (reducer) Launch bolt is indeed what I had in mind. However I prefer to use +1 Splitting Impact* bolts to pump damage and number of shots per casting.


And while all of that is a bit hard to connect with normally, getting access to Divine power and the like (I prefer using Arcane Disciple) makes it a trivial matter.


*It might not be Impact I'm thinking of. What is the ability that just adds a flat 5 damage?

[Deox]

Reach, Chained, invisible (reducer) Launch bolt is indeed what I had in mind. However I prefer to use +1 Splitting Impact* bolts to pump damage and number of shots per casting.


And while all of that is a bit hard to connect with normally, getting access to Divine power and the like (I prefer using Arcane Disciple) makes it a trivial matter.


*It might not be Impact I'm thinking of. What is the ability that just adds a flat 5 damage?

Collision, +2 bonus. MIC.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't think you can select force, piercing, or vile for Elven Spell Lore. Elven Spell Lore says a player, "can prepare the spell multiple times, selecting the same or a different energy type for it with each preparation." I think it needs to be one of the 5 energy types.

There are 6 energy types, fire, cold, lighting, acid, sonic, and force (in decending order of likelyhood of resistance/immunity).

[Deox]

There are 6 energy types, fire, cold, lighting, acid, sonic, and force (in decending order of likelyhood of resistance/immunity).

You forgot positive and negative.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a debate if force is an energy or not. It is a damage type, but there are damage types that are not energy types.

[Darth Stabber]

You forgot positive and negative.

Orb of fire healing + dazing!

[Fouredged Sword]

Actually positive energy damage still damages living things. Negative energy damage DOES heal undead though, so that could be a cool variation to the uttercold assault necromancer.

[Rebel7284]

- Twinned, repeating celerity can be fun. :)
- Rays are typically popular because Split Ray is cheap.
- Telekinesis + Chain Spell is amusing.

[Urpriest]

Actually positive energy damage still damages living things. Negative energy damage DOES heal undead though, so that could be a cool variation to the uttercold assault necromancer.

Not quite.

Positive and Negative Energy aren't actually damage types. Rather, they are descriptive traits of abilities and spells. The game element in question will always say whether it heals the living or undead or neither.

[Deox]

Positive and Negative Energy aren't actually damage types.

Huh, learn something new every day.

Glad they are still energy types for the purposes of Elven Spell Lore, though.

[Agincourt]

What is the support for force being in energy type? Compare Force Damage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha=F) with Energy Damage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_energydamage&alpha=E).