cross-genre match up

[Immabozo]

Who would win? A level 20 Wizard, or Yoda?

A level 20 wizard, or Luke Skywalker?

A level 20 wizard, or Darth Vader?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wizard 20 in all three, hands down.

[Razanir]

Wizard 20. You need to realize that almost every famous hero EVER was probably level 5... TOPS. Aragorn, Rand Al'Thor, Luke, Darth Vader... Even Yoda and Gandalf are probably only level 5. And when it's Lv 5 against a level 20 wizard, the level 5 isn't just losing. It's a Curb Stomp Battle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle)

[papr_weezl8472]

Wizard 20. You need to realize that almost every famous hero EVER was probably level 5... TOPS. Aragorn, Rand Al'Thor, Luke, Darth Vader... Even Yoda and Gandalf are probably only level 5. And when it's Lv 5 against a level 20 wizard, the level 5 isn't just losing. It's a Curb Stomp Battle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle)

I don't really buy this. Star Wars and Wheel of Time are much higher-powered settings than LotR. Don't get me wrong, I think the Wizard 20 would win, but Rand definitely hits high-teens power levelwise, and if you go into the Expanded Universe the Star Wars characters also have considerable power.

[Razanir]

I don't really buy this. Star Wars and Wheel of Time are much higher-powered settings than LotR. Don't get me wrong, I think the Wizard 20 would win, but Rand definitely hits high-teens power levelwise, and if you go into the Expanded Universe the Star Wars characters also have considerable power.

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Argument for LotR, at least.

[Prime32]

Depending on how optimised the wizard is, he could set off a contingent time stop, then trap his enemy inside an indestructible forcecage filled with acid and fling it into the Negative Energy Plane. Or rather, his astral projection would do that while he sits safely on the other side of the multiverse. Jedi reflexes do nothing since he automatically goes first.

Depending on the opponent there's a ton of other strategies he could use, like travelling to the Plane of Shadow and spamming transdimensional magic missile, or mindraping someone into loving his opponent and spamming love's pain. Wizards have an insane number of powerful combat abilities, but more than that they have abilities which cannot be stopped by any means.

[ArcturusV]

Dunno about the Wizard will always go first, as Force Users basically have Foresight up all the time. So in no way could they be surprised by some Wizard Ambush. Also have the effects of Nondetection and Mind Blanking so "Scry and Die" wouldn't work on them as you wouldn't be able to find them. Wish would transport them, presuming they don't make the save. but since you wouldn't know exactly where they are you couldn't just Wish your astral self to them.

Not saying they'd win. But it wouldn't be the total one standard action with no reaction at all curbstomp it's made out to be.

[Prime32]

Dunno about the Wizard will always go first, as Force Users basically have Foresight up all the time. So in no way could they be surprised by some Wizard Ambush."Contingency: cast time stop if someone is about to attack me". Even if the Jedi ambushes the wizard, the contingency goes off before he can hit.


Also have the effects of Nondetection and Mind Blanking so "Scry and Die" wouldn't work on them as you wouldn't be able to find them.Neither of those apply to love's pain, since the Jedi isn't the target. And plenty of Jedi have been detected or mentally compelled.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's a Jedi. They're not supposed to have a Lover, unless they're already on the path to falling. And yeah, they've been detected and such. But that is always something I see happen when their concentration is broken by something. Nagging issues, personal business, etc. When it's just "I'm somewhere in the Galaxy, busy doing stuff"... they're undetectable. Thus why every time there's a Jedi Manhunt the Sith Lords and such don't just go "Oh, I sense him, he's right there, go bombard that place into rubble."

Edit: So it'd come down to who finds who first really. If it's taking place on the Jedi's Home Turf he has the advantage in having a network of contacts, etc, knowing how things work out. And when he finds the Wizard just orbitally bombarding them to smithereens. No active, all knowing gods to Contact Other Plane to get a warning about it. He'd never see it coming.

If it's in the Wizard's home turf? Well the Jedi doesn't have Plane Shifting or anything. So it's more or less the opposite problem. The Wizard will eventually find him first and just do the usual "I win this duel" set of actions.

[Prime32]

Well, it's a Jedi. They're not supposed to have a Lover, unless they're already on the path to falling.Which is why I said the wizard mindrapes someone into loving the Jedi. It doesn't need to be reciprocated.


Edit: So it'd come down to who finds who first really. If it's taking place on the Jedi's Home Turf he has the advantage in having a network of contacts, etc, knowing how things work out. And when he finds the Wizard just orbitally bombarding them to smithereens. No active, all knowing gods to Contact Other Plane to get a warning about it. He'd never see it coming.Divination spells work just fine without gods, and the wizard can easily keep a low profile (he doesn't even need food and water). Also the orbital bombardment will still trip his contingency, at which point he teleports to another planet or something. And again, assuming the wizard isn't using a clone, astral projection or simulacrum. Or living in a pocket dimension that only he can access.

[TuggyNE]

Wizard 20. You need to realize that almost every famous hero EVER was probably level 5... TOPS. Aragorn, Rand Al'Thor, Luke, Darth Vader... Even Yoda and Gandalf are probably only level 5. And when it's Lv 5 against a level 20 wizard, the level 5 isn't just losing. It's a Curb Stomp Battle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle)

Rand is actually pretty high level. Spoilers from all but the latest book, which I still have not had a chance to read:Single-handedly killing tens of thousands of trollocs and a couple dozen enemy channelers within half an hour or so? Negating the global curse on saidin set by a deity? Reversing supernatural weather changes and crop failures within a few miles around him, just with a passive aura? Sounds like a pretty high-level Wizard to me. Not, maybe, epic, but closing in on 20.

Also, he's an excellent example of a gish. :smallwink:

[Razanir]

Rand is actually pretty high level. Spoilers from all but the latest book, which I still have not had a chance to read:Single-handedly killing tens of thousands of trollocs and a couple dozen enemy channelers within half an hour or so? Negating the global curse on saidin set by a deity? Reversing supernatural weather changes and crop failures within a few miles around him, just with a passive aura? Sounds like a pretty high-level Wizard to me. Not, maybe, epic, but closing in on 20.

Also, he's an excellent example of a gish. :smallwink:

Well at least where I am, partway through the Shadow Rising... Either way, Rand was probably a bad example

[TuggyNE]

Well at least where I am, partway through the Shadow Rising... Either way, Rand was probably a bad example

Yeah, Rand is one of the fastest-leveling characters outside of D&D. Starts as Commoner 1 and just goes nuts.

[Immabozo]

If you go by Star Wars Saga rules, Yoda, Darth Vader, Luke, they are all around level 20, not that a Star Wars saga level is the same as a D&D level. Quite opposite theories. You start out strong in Saga and gain power slowly, in D&D, you start out weak and gain massive power.

But what about something like "Use the Force: Move Object"? It's not an attack, until you decide to use it as such. A Jedi (or sith) master could use the force secret to target an additional target on a single target force power, and use a destiny point to grab a third. Hold the wizard absolutely still with one, slam him with two boulders with the other two. Time stop goes off, he cannot move and thus cannot cast, two boulders sandwich him for 10D6 + 10D6, make next turn, he fails that concentration check, force choke for 2-6D6 and he can only take swift actions as long as concentration is maintained

[mattie_p]

Yeah, Rand is one of the fastest-leveling characters outside of D&D. Starts as Commoner 1 and just goes nuts.

He also totally takes at least a ToB dip, followed by a custom prestige class with easy pre-requisites that advances maneuvers and spellcasting at every level and is a 16 level prestige class.

You can't tell me that Boar Rushing Down the Mountain or Parting the Fan or The Three Leaves Fall or whatever aren't ToB Maneuvers.

Note, I didn't google those, so if those are actually maneuvers I am more of a nerd then I give myself credit for.

[Razanir]

He also totally takes at least a ToB dip, followed by a custom prestige class with easy pre-requisites that advances maneuvers and spellcasting at every level and is a 16 level prestige class.

You can't tell me that Boar Rushing Down the Mountain or Parting the Fan or The Three Leaves Fall or whatever aren't ToB Maneuvers.

Note, I didn't google those, so if those are actually maneuvers I am more of a nerd then I give myself credit for.

Now I want to make a discipline for Wheel of Time. It already has a name, even– The Flame and the Void

[Yael]

From ''Revenge of the Sith'' sourcebook:
Yoda: Male Jedi consular 7/Jedi Master 9/Jedi instructor PotJ 4; Init +1 (+1 Dex); Defense 26 (+1 Dex, +14 class, +1 size); Spd 6 m; VP/WP 141/14; Atk +21/+16/+11/+6 melee* (2d6+5d8+1/18–20, short lightsaber) or +19/+14/+9/+4 ranged (by weapon); SQ block, deflect (attack –3, defense +3, extend defense and attack), force secret (Battlemind +1, Farseeing +1, Force Defense +1), inspire confidence +2; SV Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +19; SZ S; FP 15; Rep +10; Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17.
Equipment: Short lightsaber*, Jedi robes, gimer stick.
* Yoda has constructed his own lightsaber.
Skills: Bluff +9, Computer Use +5, Craft (lightsaber) +6, Diplomacy +15, Hide +5, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (Coruscant) +4, Knowledge (Jedi lore) +14, Read/Write Basic, Sense Motive +7, Speak Basic, Speak Cerean, Speak Mon Calamarian, Speak Shyriiwook, Tumble +12.
Force Skills: Affect Mind +14, Battlemind +11, Empathy +10, Enhance Ability +12, Enhance Senses +8, Farseeing +19, Force Defense +12, Force Strike +12, Heal Another +10, Heal Self +10, Move Object +18, See Force +16, Telepathy +8.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (short lightsaber), Force-Sensitive, Heroic Surge, Improved Critical (short lightsaber), Persuasive, Weapon Finesse (short lightsaber), Weapon Focus (short lightsaber), Weapons Group Proficiency (blaster pistols, simple weapons).
Force Feats: Alter, Control, Force Mastery, Form IV Mastery HG, Knight Defense**, Lightsaber Defense**, Link, Master Defense**, Sense.
** Yoda gained these feats in his youth. He must use Enhance Ability to increase his Dexterity score to be able to gain the benefits of these feats (see below).
Enhance Ability stats: Yoda can fight much more efficiently if he uses Enhance Ability to improve his Dexterity score—in fact, he can’t use Lightsaber Defense, Knight Defense, or Master Defense at all unless he does so. See below for his stats after applying his Enhance Ability result (assuming he is wielding his short lightsaber in two hands):
4
REVENGE OF THE SITH
15–19: Init +2; Defense 33; Atk +22/+17/+12/+7 melee (2d6+5d8+3/18–20, short lightsaber) or +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged (by weapon); Dex 14; Tumble +13.
20–24: Init +3; Defense 34; Atk +23/+18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+5d8+4/18–20, short lightsaber) or +21/+16/+11/+6 ranged (by weapon); Dex 16; Tumble +14.
25–29: Init +4; Defense 35; Atk +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+5d8+6/18–20, short lightsaber) or +22/+17/+12/+7 ranged (by weapon); Dex 18; Tumble +15.
30 or more: Init +5; Defense 36; Atk +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+5d8+7/18–20, short lightsaber) or +23/+

Copy-paste'd from the scource.
It's not like a fair battle, but not the same system, so Wizard 20 wins.

[Immabozo]

From ''Revenge of the Sith'' sourcebook:
Yoda: Male Jedi consular 7/Jedi Master 9/Jedi instructor PotJ 4; Init +1 (+1 Dex); Defense 26 (+1 Dex, +14 class, +1 size); Spd 6 m; VP/WP 141/14; Atk +21/+16/+11/+6 melee* (2d6+5d8+1/18–20, short lightsaber) or +19/+14/+9/+4 ranged (by weapon); SQ block, deflect (attack –3, defense +3, extend defense and attack), force secret (Battlemind +1, Farseeing +1, Force Defense +1), inspire confidence +2; SV Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +19; SZ S; FP 15; Rep +10; Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17.
Equipment: Short lightsaber*, Jedi robes, gimer stick.
* Yoda has constructed his own lightsaber.
Skills: Bluff +9, Computer Use +5, Craft (lightsaber) +6, Diplomacy +15, Hide +5, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (Coruscant) +4, Knowledge (Jedi lore) +14, Read/Write Basic, Sense Motive +7, Speak Basic, Speak Cerean, Speak Mon Calamarian, Speak Shyriiwook, Tumble +12.
Force Skills: Affect Mind +14, Battlemind +11, Empathy +10, Enhance Ability +12, Enhance Senses +8, Farseeing +19, Force Defense +12, Force Strike +12, Heal Another +10, Heal Self +10, Move Object +18, See Force +16, Telepathy +8.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (short lightsaber), Force-Sensitive, Heroic Surge, Improved Critical (short lightsaber), Persuasive, Weapon Finesse (short lightsaber), Weapon Focus (short lightsaber), Weapons Group Proficiency (blaster pistols, simple weapons).
Force Feats: Alter, Control, Force Mastery, Form IV Mastery HG, Knight Defense**, Lightsaber Defense**, Link, Master Defense**, Sense.
** Yoda gained these feats in his youth. He must use Enhance Ability to increase his Dexterity score to be able to gain the benefits of these feats (see below).
Enhance Ability stats: Yoda can fight much more efficiently if he uses Enhance Ability to improve his Dexterity score—in fact, he can’t use Lightsaber Defense, Knight Defense, or Master Defense at all unless he does so. See below for his stats after applying his Enhance Ability result (assuming he is wielding his short lightsaber in two hands):
4
REVENGE OF THE SITH
15–19: Init +2; Defense 33; Atk +22/+17/+12/+7 melee (2d6+5d8+3/18–20, short lightsaber) or +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged (by weapon); Dex 14; Tumble +13.
20–24: Init +3; Defense 34; Atk +23/+18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+5d8+4/18–20, short lightsaber) or +21/+16/+11/+6 ranged (by weapon); Dex 16; Tumble +14.
25–29: Init +4; Defense 35; Atk +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+5d8+6/18–20, short lightsaber) or +22/+17/+12/+7 ranged (by weapon); Dex 18; Tumble +15.
30 or more: Init +5; Defense 36; Atk +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+5d8+7/18–20, short lightsaber) or +23/+

Copy-paste'd from the scource.
It's not like a fair battle, but not the same system, so Wizard 20 wins.

those stats are SO unfair to Yoda!

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Though if we looked for a statted out NPC Wizard 20 he'd probably be as bad. Maybe even worse. Statted NPC blocks just always seem to be laughably terrible. Especially for Canon, marquee characters.