Why did Durkon think that Haley was weak willed

[prism6691]

In comic 874 Durkon mentions how half the party was weak willed and suggested that it would be great if mr. scruffy could only get Roy. Has Haley ever failed a will save in the comic? I'm going to exclude the phantasm trap from this cause it happened after. Is there any specific evidence that would point to that conclusion?


I noticed that the class level and geekery thread doesn't assign a wisdom score to Haley (from lack of evidence?)

[martianmister]

She is weak in every imaginable way.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Has Haley ever failed a will save in the comic?

Has she made one?

[snoopy13a]

Durkon is probably guessing that she has a low wisdom score because she is a bit impulsive. Whether or not Durkon is correct is anyone's guess.

[Ellye]

Remember that she got an issue with aphasia due to her treasure being lost?

Some Will checks were likely involved. Sure, she eventually recovered, but that thing lasted an eternity! (well, for us readers, at least)

[Gnoman]

The Rogue class has the "weak" will save progression, and she's never been shown to have particularly high wisdom. In fact, the "Squid-thingy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)" suggests that it isn't too high, since the only other "sweet" metaphor was Elan. While Roy also has "weak" will saves due to being a fighter, he's been proven to have quite good Wisdom, to the point where Cleric would have been a viable class.

[Kish]

In comic 874 Durkon mentions how half the party was weak willed and suggested that it would be great if mr. scruffy could only get Roy. Has Haley ever failed a will save in the comic? [...]
She's greedy, neurotic, and suffered from aphasia for a long time in response to losing money.

I advise against looking for a mechanical interpretation of Durkon's statement that half the party is weak-willed.

[hoff]

At their level their wisdom bonus is hardly a major factor. The most important part is having levels in classes that provide high will save. Rogue does not, but bard does. Without factoring wisdom bonus Elan has a Will save at least 4 higher (depends on his prestige class giving high will save, if it does it's at least 6 higher) than Haley, Roy or Belkar.

Elan is the only strong willed (not as much as Durkon though) of the bunch even if his wisdom 10.

[Steward]

Haley is unlikely to have a high Will save for a variety of rules reasons. Durkon likely considers Roy and Vaarsuvius to be (intellectually) the heavy hitters of the party, and the ones most likely to be able to compete with a vampire on a purely mental basis.


She is weak in every imaginable way.

Whoa!

[Olinser]

At their level their wisdom bonus is hardly a major factor. The most important part is having levels in classes that provide high will save. Rogue does not, but bard does. Without factoring wisdom bonus Elan has a Will save at least 4 higher (depends on his prestige class giving high will save, if it does it's at least 6 higher) than Haley, Roy or Belkar.

Elan is the only strong willed (not as much as Durkon though) of the bunch even if his wisdom 10.

Right now both Haley and Roy are looking at a +4 to their Will save from their class levels, plus their stat bonuses. So Roy is probably looking at a +7 or +8, which is pretty good for his level.

However, by his level, Elan, if he has 14 levels in Bard, is looking at a +9 from class levels. HOWEVER, when you take out his undoubtedly large wisdom penalty, he is probably looking at about a +6 or so.

So just from a will save standpoint, without any items coming into play, Roy has a higher Will than either of them.

Elan has a decent one - but lets be honest, what's Elan going to do against Malack. Why risk a dominated party member for the sake of still-not-that-useful support?

For reference, Belkar gets +4 from his class, and probably takes a -3 from his wisdom. So probably looking at a +1 save there. Just about as bad as you can possibly get.

[Math_Mage]

She's greedy, neurotic, and suffered from aphasia for a long time in response to losing money.

I advise against looking for a mechanical interpretation of Durkon's statement that half the party is weak-willed.

But if one happens to fall into our lap, what are we to do? Rogues have weak Will progression. Haley has decent Int/Cha but didn't make a good meal for the mind flayer, suggesting weak Wis. Result? Weak Will save.

It's not like knowing this undermines the value of recognizing Haley's oft-shallow personality (and I agree with you on all points there), so I can't say I see any reason to be hostile towards recognizing mechanics when they are referenced.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I advise against looking for a mechanical interpretation of Durkon's statement that half the party is weak-willed.

That seems appropriate though; Durkon was responding to a statement that was presumably a mechanical interpretation of resisting a vampire's gaze attack.

[Kish]

Except that if he was looking for the one available Order member other than himself who was likely to have the best Will save, he should have talked about sending Mr. Scruffy to fetch Elan and leave Roy, not the other way around.

[Math_Mage]

Except that if he was looking for the one available Order member other than himself who was likely to have the best Will save, he should have talked about sending Mr. Scruffy to fetch Elan and leave Roy, not the other way around.

Roy's save is about as good as Elan's factoring in differences in Wisdom. More to the point, the willpower of the party member is not the only trait Durkon is looking for (a point that applies just as well to both story and mechanical interpretation of 'weak-willed'). Elan trades in precision damage (doesn't work on Malack), half the spells he could use that might be useful in this situation are mind-affecting (doesn't work on Malack), and bard song won't particularly help Durkon.

[Olinser]

Roy's save is about as good as Elan's factoring in differences in Wisdom. More to the point, the willpower of the party member is not the only trait Durkon is looking for (a point that applies just as well to both story and mechanical interpretation of 'weak-willed'). Elan trades in precision damage (doesn't work on Malack), half the spells he could use that might be useful in this situation are mind-affecting (doesn't work on Malack), and bard song won't particularly help Durkon.

Exactly. I figured above that Roy should have a bit higher Will save due to Elan's penalties and Roy's bonuses.

But why would you risk a dominated bard for really very little use against the opponent you'd be fighting?

Especially since, if JUST Roy and Elan show up, it means that Haley has been left alone. It generally is NOT a good idea to leave party members off alone.

[Kish]

Durkon draws a line. He actively wants Roy there. He actively wants Elan and Haley kept away. The reason he gives for this is, "Weak-willed describes half the party."

You think his desire for Roy's presence and Elan's absence is ambiguous and could be about Will saves, or about something unrelated to willpower? I don't.

[An Enemy Spy]

She is weak in every imaginable way.

Would you care to actually back that statement up?

[Math_Mage]

Durkon draws a line. He actively wants Roy there. He actively wants Elan and Haley kept away. The reason he gives for this is, "Weak-willed describes half the party."

You think his desire for Roy's presence and Elan's absence is ambiguous and could be about Will saves, or about something unrelated to willpower? I don't.

You think his decision about who he would want Mr. Scruffy to fetch can only be about story-not-mechanics willpower? I don't. Roy's his closest companion and the only one who'd be any use against Malack.

I'm simply taking the same attitude the Giant said to take: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15200597&postcount=148) "D&D until proven otherwise." That means I'm more willing to tolerate minor inconsistencies between character and character sheet (like Elan having a lower Will save than is canonical for a bard, perhaps) than to throw out the character sheet entirely and act hostile towards any mention of mechanics. And I'm certainly happy to work from the character sheet when we know it's completely consistent with the comic, as in Haley's case.

[martianmister]

Would you care to actually back that statement up?

She is the most emotionally unstable member of the order.

[Math_Mage]

She is the most emotionally unstable member of the order.

That is a sufficient premise to argue Haley is weak in one imaginable way.

You used the word 'every'. Why?

[martianmister]

That is a sufficient premise to argue Haley is weak in one imaginable way.

You used the word 'every'. Why?

Her "will" is "weak" in every imaginable way, that's the point of this thread. We're not talking about her physique.

[Math_Mage]

Her "will" is "weak" in every imaginable way, that's the point of this thread. We're not talking about her physique.

"She is weak in every imaginable way"
=/=
"She is weak-willed"

And besides, that does nothing but reassert the very thing the OP was questioning. :smallsigh:

[prism6691]

I didn't mean to cause an argument, I was just curious if there was any hard evidence that I missed or if it was what it seemed to be which was Durkon's perception of the party

[Steward]

She is the most emotionally unstable member of the order.

Worse than the genocidal elf?


I was just curious if there was any hard evidence that I missed or if it was what it seemed to be which was Durkon's perception of the party

Durkon treats the Order like they're his kids. His perceptions aren't necessarily accurate per se.

[prism6691]

[QUOTE=Durkon treats the Order like they're his kids. His perceptions aren't necessarily accurate per se.[/QUOTE]

Which was the point. Obviously his perceptions were not necessarily valid. I just thought I might have overlooked something or there might have been some content in the books that displayed a low will save.

[Bulldog Psion]

"Half the party" sounds like sort of a generalization meaning "not all of the party, but a good chunk of it." I don't think it's statistically precise.

"You spend half your time complaining about your job" doesn't mean that someone spends precisely 12 hours per day, no more and no less, complaining about their job.

"Half of these guys have never seen combat" does not mean that exactly 110 of a 220 person unit has never seen combat.

[Chronos]

I'm not sure it's realistic to assume that Elan or even Belkar has a Wis penalty as bad as -3. That'd require a score of 5, which ranges from difficult to impossible in any of the standard D&D ability score generation schemes.

[Water_Bear]

Durkon is also bad at math, if the early strips are to be believed, so there's a good chance that any estimates on his part about the Order's Will Saves were inaccurate.

[Math_Mage]

I'm not sure it's realistic to assume that Elan or even Belkar has a Wis penalty as bad as -3. That'd require a score of 5, which ranges from difficult to impossible in any of the standard D&D ability score generation schemes.

Roy has at least a score of +2. Elan may have a base Will Save of either 8 or 9 depending on his level distribution. Roy has a base save of 4. Roy with 16 Wis and Elan with 7 (plausible) would make Roy's save higher by RAW. However, it's not really enough to justify saying Elan is weak-willed while Roy isn't; besides, I don't think it's particularly necessary to establish that Durkon was correct by RAW about Elan.

[thereaper]

Rogues have a weak save progression, and Wisdom is most likely Haley's dump stat (it's the traditional dump stat for a Rogue).

Elan, by rights, should have a decent will save from being a Bard (despite his obvious wisdom penalty). However, this is likely a case of story overriding mechanics.

Roy has, in the Deva's words, a halfway decent wisdom score (which I would say probably means a +2 modifier, or +3 at most). Then again, Fighters have a poor will save progression. However, it would be very odd for Roy to have a lower will save than Elan (or a poor will save in general, given how driven and disciplined he is). So we might also chalk this up to story overriding mechanics (though, to be fair, there are feats that boost will saves, and if nothing else, Roy has a lot of feats, at least one of which is possibly homebrewed).

[King of Nowhere]

Haley is quite emotional, but I don't think we can say she is "extremely" weak willed. I think her wisdom is about average. Which, coupled with her rogue progression, would give her a poor will save for her level.
Roy and elan would have about the same will score, with roy's wisdom compensating for his lower progression. I think in their case we can say story trumps rules. The idea of roy failing a will save that elan can make sounds just too ridiculous to express.
Items or feats could also take a role in it. A fighter get plenty of feats, and a single charm person could turn one to the enemy, so ggetting the iron will feat would be sensible. Also some kind of item boosting will save would be a good way to spend some money if you expect to fight spellcasters every once in a while. That's especially true for belkar, who was always rendered powerless every time he fought someone who could charm him. But since this comic isn't about optimization, belkaar will keep automatically failing any will save he has to make.

[Copperdragon]

I noticed that the class level and geekery thread doesn't assign a wisdom score to Haley (from lack of evidence?)

This estimate is not about rules, but about what would be roleplaying if this was an actual game. Durkon thinks Haley is a weak-willed hussy who's emotionally jumping here and there. Due to that, he includes her (and I think he's wrong, even if he by the rules is correct).
The characters do not know their character sheets, only what they know from each other by observation. Given how Haley differs from his worldview (alignment included) it's no surprise he considers her somewhat unreliable (in which he is wrong).

Just shoot the rules and it becomes much clearer what Durkon means.

[AstralFire]

However, by his level, Elan, if he has 14 levels in Bard, is looking at a +9 from class levels. HOWEVER, when you take out his undoubtedly large wisdom penalty, he is probably looking at about a +6 or so.

I doubt Elan's Wisdom is any lower than an eight, and I would honestly be surprised if both his Wisdom and his Intellect were either neutral or negative; it's more likely that one is somewhat negative and the other is slightly positive. After all, it's not just that Elan lacks common sense, but that he's also tuned in to an entirely different band of it. Elan's consistently been shown to be pretty good at reading people (which requires more than just Charisma) so long as he's not trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. Assuming the best whenever remotely plausible is his biggest flaw.

Realistically, you could be starting out with as much as a 13 in a stat and have it be considered "bad" in most 3.5 games as a primary score; the fact that Elan's unsuited to be a Wis or Int based caster doesn't require scores deeply in the negatives.

[CRtwenty]

Regarding Elan, I've always assumed that he had a low Wis and an average or slightly above average Intelligence.

[Silverionmox]

Elan's only mental acuity is with people skills, so besides the obvious charisma he might have some wisdom. He's been shown to not get even simple implications of events, so that makes him simply dumb - aka low intelligence.

[ZarDaranth]

I'd assume that the "half the party" that would easily fall into domination would be Elan, Belkar, and Haley; the first two due to their abysmal wisdom scores, and Haley due to her known personality flaws (I'd assume that if she had a bit more wisdom, the speech impediment wouldn't have lasted so long, i.e. listening to Goth Haley and just tell Elan the truth that she was in love with him.)

I'd assume the half of the party that wouldn't be dominated easily would be Roy, V, and Durkon himself. They hadn't seen V (who, despite having no common sense, has a decent will save due to class bonuses) in a while, so the only other person with a decent wisdom, a fairly decent understanding of "quickly listen to the dwarf who says don't look into the Snake/Vampire/Cleric/Robot/Dinosaur's eyes" and has a sword that does improved damage to the undead.

[theinsulabot]

I dont think its that haley is weak willed as much as it is durkon is fully aware that roy was the only one who could be consistently relied on to make his will saves, the others were risks.

And no, before someone calls me out on it I simply do not hold to the belief that due to progression between fighters and bards elan's will save is equivalent to roy's in this comic. on that point let us preemptively agree to disagree.

[Drakevarg]

For reference, Belkar gets +4 from his class, and probably takes a -3 from his wisdom. So probably looking at a +1 save there. Just about as bad as you can possibly get.

Given that a casting of Owl's Wisdom is enough to give him at least some capacity for spells, I'd peg Belkar's Wisdom at 6-7 at the lowest.

[Copperdragon]

Given that a casting of Owl's Wisdom is enough to give him at least some capacity for spells, I'd peg Belkar's Wisdom at 6-7 at the lowest.

The spell's effect my be enhanced for the plot's/joke's effect. You should not put any serious estimate on that.

[Drakevarg]

The spell's effect my be enhanced for the plot's/joke's effect. You should not put any serious estimate on that.

That point could just as easily be made for... pretty much anything else in the comic, ever.

[Copperdragon]

That point could just as easily be made for... pretty much anything else in the comic, ever.

Yes. And the reason for that is that Rich usually does that.
A +1 or +4 here or there is pretty boring for a graphical story or a story in general. In the game, when you roll five or ten times with the bonus it makes a difference and is balanced. But the comic needs to SHOW the effect is noticeable, therefore, the effects tend to be increased beyond what the rules of the game would allow.

Epic magic is much more epic than it should be, Durkon's Giant Form is truly large, Owl's Wisdom has a massive impact, characters who are "stronger" simply are "stronger" (Tarquin dominates Roy easily and throws Durkon around, even if we could argue if that should be possible by the rules), characters in Rage do not only get some Str bonus, they become Machines of Destruction, if Vaarsuvius throws a lightning bolt at another caster, he's pushed back over the ground, hits do one-hit-kills if appropiate... the comic is full of all that.

[hereticus81]

This estimate is not about rules, but about what would be roleplaying if this was an actual game. Durkon thinks Haley is a weak-willed hussy who's emotionally jumping here and there. Due to that, he includes her (and I think he's wrong, even if he by the rules is correct).
The characters do not know their character sheets, only what they know from each other by observation. Given how Haley differs from his worldview (alignment included) it's no surprise he considers her somewhat unreliable (in which he is wrong).

Just shoot the rules and it becomes much clearer what Durkon means.

Firstly long time lurker first time yadda yadda

Secondly I think you're spot on. Durkon views Hayley as weak willed due to how he perceives her as acting in a weak willed way and it's not based on him seeing her Will save IMO. While Hayley has grown a lot as a character she was, and still is to a lesser degree, obsessed by gold and riches and she was a bit erratic, such impressions stick especially with dwarves :smallwink:

There's a similar thing in the game I play in at the mo. I'm an half-orc cleric of Imodae in Pathfinders kingmaker campaign who views both the Ranger and Sorceror as being weak willed not due to their ability to resist mind affecting spells but due to the way they behave, especially their lustfulness. OOC I know the Sorcerors Will save is only one or two lower than my characters but that doesn't stop the cleric worrying about the slightly unstable and erratic Sorceror :smallbiggrin:

[konradknox]

Elan has a decent one - but lets be honest, what's Elan going to do against Malack. Why risk a dominated party member for the sake of still-not-that-useful support?


Not to derail the topic or anything, but Elan could mess Malack up pretty good with Dashing Swordsman. A albino-pale vampire lizard evil cleric with children murdered by Elan's brother. That's a lot of bard usable pun material to make jokes with!

[Math_Mage]

Not to derail the topic or anything, but Elan could mess Malack up pretty good with Dashing Swordsman. A albino-pale vampire lizard evil cleric with children murdered by Elan's brother. That's a lot of bard usable pun material to make jokes with!

Elan's pun-based rapier style may be precision damage--it certainly fits. Malack is undead, so that damage wouldn't affect him.

[137beth]

Elan's pun-based rapier style may be precision damage--it certainly fits. Malack is undead, so that damage wouldn't affect him.

I don't see why it would be precision damage. It might not work on mindless creatures, but I can't see it being precision damage.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Elan's pun-based rapier style may be precision damage--it certainly fits. Malack is undead, so that damage wouldn't affect him.

Piercing damage?

[Math_Mage]

Piercing damage?

There are a few specialized skills that involve precision damage, sneak attack being the best-known by far. On the other hand, on further investigation it's much less widespread than I had initially thought, and it goes from 'maybe' to 'unlikely' in my book. Ah well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Anyone else ever think it was screwy that the class that primarily focuses on getting close enough to the monsters to put the hurt on and who spends their working day up to their ankles in other people's guts has a crummy Will save progression?

[Math_Mage]

Anyone else ever think it was screwy that the class that primarily focuses on getting close enough to the monsters to put the hurt on and who spends their working day up to their ankles in other people's guts has a crummy Will save progression?

No. What does the one have to do with the other?

[ZarDaranth]

I'd assume that would be more of a fortitude check.

[137beth]

Anyone else ever think it was screwy that the class that primarily focuses on getting close enough to the monsters to put the hurt on and who spends their working day up to their ankles in other people's guts has a crummy Will save progression?

I'm sure someone else somewhere in the world thinks that.
But I don't.

[AstralFire]

No. What does the one have to do with the other?

That it takes a lot of courage to stand one's ground.

Very few people enjoy thinking of their characters as weak-willed, whatever their other flaws. For this reason, I tend to view the Will Save as only partially based on strength of mind and primarily based on specific training to withstand mental attacks. This causes some problems with the few (Ex) Will Saves, but... well, they're few.

[Math_Mage]

That it takes a lot of courage to stand one's ground.

Very few people enjoy thinking of their characters as weak-willed, whatever their other flaws. For this reason, I tend to view the Will Save as only partially based on strength of mind and primarily based on specific training to withstand mental attacks. This causes some problems with the few (Ex) Will Saves, but... well, they're few.

Will is honestly a bad word, because it implies that making the save is a matter of mental fortitude, when you and I agree that's a very limited way to look at it (though I see it somewhat differently).

Will save derives from Wisdom score and class levels. Wisdom doesn't actually govern being 'wise' in the colloquial sense; it has to do with perception, intuition, awareness, and common sense. The awareness of being manipulated, distinguishing the manipulation from the 'real', is a major factor in making a Will save. After all, it often does not take mental fortitude to recognize and disbelieve an illusion, but rather the perception to realize it is an illusion. Similarly, will save progressions from class type have to do with mental finesse and intuition deriving from experience working with one's mental state--this may include mental discipline training, but that's not the only way it happens.

'Courage' is a particularly poor fit for the Will save, having little to do with any of this. Unfortunately, the close link between courage and 'willpower' means courage can easily be mistakenly associated with the Will save.