Extra Spell: abusable?

[Cheiromancer]

Suppose I am a DM, and am willing to allow a character to use Extra Spell to gain a spell not on the character's spell list. What shenanigans can I look forward to? Alternatively, suppose I am a player and have persuaded my DM to ignore the FAQ and let me use Extra Spell in this way. What is the best way to use this ruling to optimize a character?

In either case, the spell is treated as on the spell list of the character in question and is divine or arcane according to the character's class. So a wizard could cast raise dead, but as an arcane spell. Class specific rules apply: the arcane raise dead does not require a divine focus, but is subject to ASF if the wizard is wearing armor when he casts it, etc.

One potential exploit is for a wizard to learn arcane fusion and then apply Arcane Thesis to it. With the appropriate metamagic (Twin Spell, etc.) and metamagic reducers you can get quite a monster an effective character. I believe Anthrowhale calls this a "stutter caster" and, if Extra Spell is disallowed, can be entered via Wyrm Wizard.

What else?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, for one, it can help make the awesome Duskblade/Swiftblade.

As with everything that expands versatility, it can be abused, or simply used to add something neat (or needed).

[Twingunn]

If you let things from alternate lists in you get stuff like taking spells off domain lists and shortened casting lists. What is 4th level for a pally is not consistant with a 4th level wizard spell. Of course with people going around and doing that crazy chaos shuffle thing it can get much much more abused.

[Orran]

There are a few PRC's with spells at lower levels than originally intended, trapsmith springs to mind, with greater dispel magic being 3rd. Combining this with lower level metmagic rods, or abjurant champion's quickening ability could be fun. Maybe not at the levels other people may have, but a nice start.

[mattie_p]

Combine with DFCS to get all the spells. Why stop at just one if you have a spellbook?

[Slipperychicken]

Chameleon bonus feat. Swap it in and out each day, scribe it into your spellbook, learn all the spells.

[Tvtyrant]

Chameleon bonus feat. Swap it in and out each day, scribe it into your spellbook, learn all the spells.

Combine with Earth, Sanctum and Heighten spell to learn and cast every spell in the game. Chameleon is like Archivist: the Prestigious.

Also combine with Spelldancer and Bard for MAD DANCE SKILLS.

[Chronos]

If you somehow re-assign the feat, the spell will stay in your book, but it'll cease to be on your class spell list again, if it wasn't before. There's limited value in having a spell in your book if you can't cast it.

[Tvtyrant]

If you somehow re-assign the feat, the spell will stay in your book, but it'll cease to be on your class spell list again, if it wasn't before. There's limited value in having a spell in your book if you can't cast it.

Chameleon's have access to the whole arcane spell list though, so they are fine.

If you are talking about Chaos Shuffling, than yeah I agree it doesn't really work. Although it might be nice to do as a way to gain gold.

[Mithril Leaf]

If you somehow re-assign the feat, the spell will stay in your book, but it'll cease to be on your class spell list again, if it wasn't before. There's limited value in having a spell in your book if you can't cast it.

Rary's Arcane Conversion. Arcane Thesis'd Repeating Invisible Mordenkainen's Lucubration with Sanctum Spell and you can have all the spells you want off whatever lists you want, so long as they're under 6th level.

[Andezzar]

Rary's Arcane Conversion. Arcane Thesis'd Repeating Invisible Mordenkainen's Lucubration with Sanctum Spell and you can have all the spells you want off whatever lists you want, so long as they're under 6th level.Could you explain the procedure to me, please? What are all the metamagic for (especially invisible spell)?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Body outside Body becomes surprisingly effective when you're a Wildshape-focused Druid instead of a squishy Wu Jen.

[Chronos]

Although Chameleons can get access to any spell (well, any spell under 7th level, anyway), one can argue that they can only get one class's list at a time. So if you really want the Trapsmith's level 1 dispels and level 3 walls of stone, you can get them, but you'll have a really short spell list until the next time you change your focus.

Where it could really save some trouble, though, would be archivists. No more having to track down a high-level caster with just the right domain who's willing to cooperate with you-- Just so long as one exists anywhere, you can get that juicy spell.

[Cheiromancer]

Although Chameleons can get access to any spell (well, any spell under 7th level, anyway), one can argue that they can only get one class's list at a time. So if you really want the Trapsmith's level 1 dispels and level 3 walls of stone, you can get them, but you'll have a really short spell list until the next time you change your focus.

Where it could really save some trouble, though, would be archivists. No more having to track down a high-level caster with just the right domain who's willing to cooperate with you-- Just so long as one exists anywhere, you can get that juicy spell.

A wizard is going to need a pretty big incentive to take two levels in a class that doesn't advance his own casting. Chameleon spell-casting is not worth it, imho. And an off-list spell gained by the floating feat is castable only by virtue of the feat; if the feat is swapped out the spell becomes useless filler in the wizard's spell-book. Same as if retraining is used. The chameleon's floating feat could be used to get lots of spells off of the wizard list, but there is still the two-level investment to look at. Collegiate wizard should get you all the wizard spells you want without sacrificing two levels of wizard advancement.

As to the archivist, the spell research rules in the DMG (p. 198) seem pretty clear; for spells that are not original, they can be researched in one day and the cost is twice what it would cost an NPC to cast them. I interpret 'not original' as meaning 'they exist somewhere'. So 20 gp x spell level x minimum caster level. A stingy archivist might use two levels of chameleon to get the spells via extra spell, but the entrance requirements are a bit of a pain, and two levels is a significant hit to the character's spellcasting.

The Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (DCFS) seems quite broken. A preliminary fix would be to allow it to shuffle only those feats that are chosen; the bonus feats that wizards and fighters get, or the ones that all characters get every three levels. But not the bonus martial weapon proficiency feats that elf characters get.

Anyway, I was more interested in seeing what kind of brokenness/optimization could be obtained through the generous reading of Extra Spell. Brokenness/optimization from DCFS isn't quite what I was looking at. Similarly the body outside body trick seems to be more about the druid than about Extra Spell.

So far the abuse potential of Extra Spell seems pretty modest. A 1st level dispel magic is nice, but given that a feat must be dedicated to it, it seems a reasonable trade. Likewise for a 3rd level wall of stone.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Speaking of Duskblade/Swiftblade and Trapsmith, isn't Haste on the Trapsmith's list as a 1st level spell, just as an added bonus?

[Vaz]

A divine caster can use it to enter hexer from 3.0 to gain full spellcasting advancement and up to 5 additional sor/wiz spells.

[Chronos]

I wasn't talking about a wizard dipping Chameleon, there-- I was talking about a character who stays in Chameleon for all ten levels, so their spellcasting is non-negligible. A wizard who wanted to pull the same trick would presumably use the (admittedly overpowered) dark chaos spells.

Arcane_Snowman, if you went that route to qualify for Swiftblade, you'd probably want some metamagic on that Haste, since the prerequisites require you to use your third-level slots on Haste.

[Psyren]

I find most casters don't need this kind of help. For the few that do (like Warmage and Healer), you're better off fixing the class itself rather than giving them a blank check like this.

[Mithril Leaf]

Could you explain the procedure to me, please? What are all the metamagic for (especially invisible spell)?

Alright, Arcane Conversion gives you any spell you have scribed in your spellbook in exchange for any spell you have prepared. This lets you cast those off list spells you got.
Arcane Thesis on Mage's Lucubration is to reduce the cost of metamagic on the spell. It reduces the spell level by one per metamagic. By adding invisible spell and sanctum spell, you reduce the cost of Repeat Spell to nothing. By casting a Sanctum Spell'd Mage's Lucubration outside your sanctum, it counts as a 5th level spell, a candidate for itself. This means you can regain any 5th level spell (including spells with sanctum applied of 6th level) in round one, then next round regain your mage's lucubration. It takes a few round, but combined with Arcane Conversion you can have any answer spell of sixth level or lower whenever you need it.

[nedz]

Arcane_Snowman, if you went that route to qualify for Swiftblade, you'd probably want some metamagic on that Haste, since the prerequisites require you to use your third-level slots on Haste.

There's no reason you can't fill higher level slots with lower level spells, metamagic would simply be more efficient.

[Carth]

Body outside Body becomes surprisingly effective when you're a Wildshape-focused Druid instead of a squishy Wu Jen.

Ooh, you've given me thoughts for an arcane hierophant build. Wu jens and their taboos could make for an even more interesting druid. :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

Geomancer works well alongside that as well.

[Karnith]

By adding invisible spell and sanctum spell, you reduce the cost of Repeat Spell to nothing.
Minor problem: Barring some kind of errata that I'm not aware of, modifying a spell with the Repeat Spell metamagic feat is a +3 to the spell's spell slot. You'd need to add some other +0 metamagic feat to the chain to get it down to a +0 modification to the spell level.
Boy, me am real smart some times.

[Psyren]

Body outside Body becomes surprisingly effective when you're a Wildshape-focused Druid instead of a squishy Wu Jen.

Wu Jen/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage; every BoB clone you make has all the maneuvers, feats and buffs of the original.

Who's squishy now? :smallamused:

[Harrow]

Minor problem: Barring some kind of errata that I'm not aware of, modifying a spell with the Repeat Spell metamagic feat is a +3 to the spell's spell slot. You'd need to add some other +0 metamagic feat to the chain to get it down to a +0 modification to the spell level.

Repeat : +3
Sanctum : +0
Invisible : +0

After Arcane Thesis

Repeat : +2
Sanctum : -1
Invisible : -1

Totals out to +0.

[Cheiromancer]

Minor problem: Barring some kind of errata that I'm not aware of, modifying a spell with the Repeat Spell metamagic feat is a +3 to the spell's spell slot. You'd need to add some other +0 metamagic feat to the chain to get it down to a +0 modification to the spell level.

edit: swordsaged! (Also you could use Cooperative Spell.)

Note that you cannot have another spellcaster (an archivist, say) scribe off-list spells into your spellbook for use with Arcane Conversion. Else you will end up with a prepared spell that "is now prepared and ready to cast as normal." Since wizards cannot normally cast spells not on their list, this means that you have a prepared spell you cannot actually cast. So you need a ruling that Extra Spell allows you to consider the spell to be on your spell list for the purpose of preparing and casting.

[Karnith]

Repeat : +3
Sanctum : +0
Invisible : +0

After Arcane Thesis

Repeat : +2
Sanctum : -1
Invisible : -1

Totals out to +0.
D'oh, I am really good at all the maths. Complaint withdrawn. :smallredface:

[Yora]

Though this is a kind of cheese that smells so terribly bad that you'd be likely to be chased out by many DMs.

[Cheiromancer]

Well, for one, it can help make the awesome Duskblade/Swiftblade.

It just occurred to me what you might have meant. Are you counting "No slots" to meet the special requirement of "must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste"?

If so, the duskblade still has to have 2nd level spells to take Extra Spell. That's fifth level, so it is the sixth level feat slot... Unless Precocious Apprentice meets the requirement. Then Duskblade 3 qualifies if you can get enough feats (Precocious Apprentice and Extra Spell, plus Dodge and mobility. Human and a flaw, maybe?)

Hmmm. You need a DM who allows flaws and who will rule favorably on the Swiftblade special requirement, Extra Spell, and Precocious Apprentice. That is a pretty lenient DM. Probably better to enter after Duskblade 6.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It just occurred to me what you might have meant. Are you counting "No slots" to meet the special requirement of "must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste"?

If so, the duskblade still has to have 2nd level spells to take Extra Spell. That's fifth level, so it is the sixth level feat slot... Unless Precocious Apprentice meets the requirement. Then Duskblade 3 qualifies if you can get enough feats (Precocious Apprentice and Extra Spell, plus Dodge and mobility. Human and a flaw, maybe?)

Hmmm. You need a DM who allows flaws and who will rule favorably on the Swiftblade special requirement, Extra Spell, and Precocious Apprentice. That is a pretty lenient DM. Probably better to enter after Duskblade 6.

No, I don't mean Duskblade entry at level 5. I mean, as-is, it's currently impossible for a Duskblade to enter Swiftblade. Hells, I don't even mind not finishing Swiftblade off pre-epic. The other abilities are fantastic enough.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ooh, you've given me thoughts for an arcane hierophant build. Wu jens and their taboos could make for an even more interesting druid. :smallbiggrin:

It does have a nice flavor. Sadly, from a mechanical standpoint the Wu Jen spell list is not worth the power loss compared to a Wizard AH.
You'd get BoB at level 16 at the earliest and i can't think of ANY other spell on the Wu Jen list that makes the loss of druid powers worth it.
You'd be better of going for 2 levels of Recaster or Wyrm Wizard to add BoB to a Wizard AH.

On the other hand, unless your party is very highly optimized, it generally doesn't matter too much since you're still a Druid :smallbiggrin:.

[Carth]

Oh yeah, it's not going to be optimized at all, though it does start at level 20 and we'll never level. On the plus side, I'd get arboreal transformation, which is also the perfect AH spell. :D

[JaronK]

The most obvious abuse that springs to mind for me is an Archivist casting Extended Mule's Enlightenment (which grants a feat for 2 hours/lvl) to gain any spell of their choice from any list, then scribe it. Since it's a divine spell they just scribed, they can still use it when they lose the feat. Repeat with new feat.

The best way to avoid this trick (which also works for Chameleons) is to say that if you lose Extra Spell for any reason, regaining the feat automatically relearns the spell it gave you last time. Now it just grants you one new spell, not all of them.

JaronK

[Chronos]

Let me guess: You found Mule's Enlightenment at dandwiki? Because there's a much easier way to prevent that abuse...

[eggynack]

Let me guess: You found Mule's Enlightenment at dandwiki? Because there's a much easier way to prevent that abuse...
According to other past JaronK, it's from divine masters, which is a kingdoms of kalamar setting specific book. JaronK is the only person I've ever seen talking about it, and that includes google searches. It's an odd thing.

Edit: I found the book, but I'd have to use money to get it, I think. This has been an oddly fruitless search, though I don't doubt that this spell exists.

[thethird]

Mule's Enlightment (Divine Masters pg. 236)
Divination
Level: [...] 5
[...]
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour / level
Mule’s enlightenment has one of the [...] following effects, determined at the time of casting.
[...]
• The caster gains the use of any single feat, provided he has the prerequisites, for the duration of the spell. [...]

[JaronK]

I mentioned it recently because I found it due to the all spells list I've been working with, and because I'm currently playing an Archivist which required finding fun spells from strange sources.

And yeah, it's official. I never cite D&D Wiki. Bad guess.

JaronK

[nedz]

Well it's third party (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_28_43&products_id=565), from the masters of hack.

[Chronos]

Yeah, sorry about that, JaronK. If I had noticed that it was a regular like you posting, I wouldn't have assumed that you got it from <ahem> that site.

[Karnith]

Well it's third party (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_28_43&products_id=565), from the masters of hack.
The 3E Kingdoms of Kalamar Campaign Setting Sourcebook was written entirely by Kenzer and Company, and WotC had no part in its development, but thanks to a bit of a legal wrangling between the companies (as I recall) Kenzerco got to put the official D&D logo on the book. So, technically official, but essentially third-party, which shows through in the overall quality of the crunch in the book. If the official D&D logo appears on this book, then I would assume that the same situation applies to it, as well. If not, I'd assume that it's a similar situation to the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, where only the core campaign setting book is official.

EDIT: Whoops, got my books confused for a minute there.