[Pathfinder] Sorcerer Spell Research

[Halae]

Found something cool in the new Ultimate Campaign book. Specifically, spell research (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/downtime#TOC-Research-a-Spell).

Now, here's a cool thing. Nowhere does it say you need a spellbook, familiar, or anything similar. if you don't have those, it's just added straight to your spells known.

Know what this means? Spontaneous casters are no longer constrained by their class in terms of how many spells known they have! All they truly need is enough time and money to research a new spell.

[dascarletm]

SRD:
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

In the SRD the section for independent research says:


Independent Research:
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

:/
Edit: Ah, pathfinder.:smalleek:

[Halae]

That's sort of the beauty of the new mechanic. New text trumps old, after all. Beyond this, I doubt many GMs would have a problem with a sorcerer, bard, summoner, or oracle learning a new spell if they're willing to put the time and effort in, as long as you don't go too wild.

[Squirrel_Dude]

To be fair, there's already a trick that allows sorcerers to know every arcane spell in the game. This doesn't change things too much, other than making it less cheesy.

[MukkTB]

It sure seems like a tier 2 character can break into tier 1 given enough time. The time requirements are a big limitation though. I can't see a party being too happy about sitting around for months. It would probably depend on the campaign.


Generating leveled characters seems to be the place where this would have the biggest impact. With theoretically years of backstory and WBL it would be possible to really buff out a spell list.

[dascarletm]

Ah, I just noticed the pathfinder tag. my-bad. I redact all my previous statements.

[Halae]

It sure seems like a tier 2 character can break into tier 1 given enough time. The time requirements are a big limitation though. I can't see a party being too happy about sitting around for months. It would probably depend on the campaign.


Generating leveled characters seems to be the place where this would have the biggest impact. With theoretically years of backstory and WBL it would be possible to really buff out a spell list.

Agreed. Which means we have to find some way to break the time-space continuum to allow us to research things at an advanced rate >:D

[MukkTB]

I care more about getting the time at low level. At high level its not a big deal.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Agreed. Which means we have to find some way to break the time-space continuum to allow us to research things at an advanced rate >:D
*cough* Demiplanes *cough*

[Halae]

*cough* Demiplanes *cough*

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that line of spells. Create Greater Demiplane would eliminate the problem quite handily, and it'd allow time to move at a double rate. add in the ecology trait and while you'd end up vegan for the duration, you wouldn't have to get supplies from outside. Quite nice.

[gr8artist]

What does it mean "you may spend a point of magic"
What's a point of magic, and how do I get some?

[Halae]

It's a part of the downtime system. You build up certain points based on the sort of business or how you conduct yourself in downtime, such as building up labour points by employing people.

also, on that note, getting a magical repository can benefit you greatly during spell research, giving a +4 bones to both your knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks. Assuming you have a decent intelligence and ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft (which you most certainly should, as a spellcaster) that should pretty much guarantee you every level of spell in the game, reducing the cost simply to time and setup of the demiplane and repository

[Yora]

A point of magic is magical ingredients worth 100 gp. You could buy those in a magic shop even if you don't use any other parts of the Capital resources system.

[Keneth]

I've asked this question on the official discussion thread on paizo (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8x64/discuss&page=21?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Campaign#1006) a few days ago, but so far I've received no response, official or otherwise. It would seem SKR ignored my post, so I must have stumbled onto something they haven't considered in any detail.

As far as I can tell, the rules, as they stand, do indeed allow you to break the normal limit of your spells known. The only question then is how much downtime your GM is willing to give you (since the new rules only apply if your GM is using downtime), and whether you can think of enough new and appropriate spells to research.

[Halae]

I've asked this question on the official discussion thread on paizo (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8x64/discuss&page=21?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Campaign#1006) a few days ago, but so far I've received no response, official or otherwise. It would seem SKR ignored my post, so I must have stumbled onto something they haven't considered in any detail.

As far as I can tell, the rules, as they stand, do indeed allow you to break the normal limit of your spells known. The only question then is how much downtime your GM is willing to give you (since the new rules only apply if your GM is using downtime), and whether you can think of enough new and appropriate spells to research.
You can research already known spells; for example, if you're level 18 and want to learn time stop, if you have a spare 9 weeks and 900 gold, nothing should stop you from learning it. That said, I particularly love the new Eldritch Researcher feat, as it specifically is for the crafting of entirely new spells.

But yeah, until the Devs put an errata or something to this to cancel it out, it remains a non-cheesy way of expanding your spell list as a spontaneous caster, which is all kinds of good.

[Keneth]

Actually, the rules allow you to research either a new spell or an existing one from another source. What that means is up for debate, but as I see it, it means spells that are not your spell list. It's what the original rules seemed to imply as well. Then again, I suppose there's nothing stopping you from taking a spell and only modifying it slightly to make it unique.

[Kudaku]

Are you quite sure you read the rules description correctly? I checked Ucmp and the PFSRD and they both phrase it quite specifically.


[...]the steps for spell research each day are as follows.

Pay 100 gp × the spell's level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.[...]

Personally I took that to mean that if you are researching a 9th level spell then you pay 900 gp per day of research, and you spend 63 days researching before you finish the spell and add it to your spells known. 63 days timed by 900 gp brings the total cost to 56 700 gp, which is markedly cheaper than a page of spell knowledge of the same level (81 000 gp).

If you have an institution capable of producing magic capital (not an unreasonable assumption for an 18th level sorcerer with a fascination with spell research) then you can spend the magic points said building/team produces to cut the cost in half, bringing it down to 28 350 gp for a 9th level spell.

Scribing a 9th level spell into a spell book costs 810 gp. Researching a 9th level spell from scratch really shouldn't be an additional 90 gp on top of that.

On the flip side, the rules on spell research in the CRB are significantly faster and cheaper, but they also call out repeatedly that sorcerers cannot "add" to their spells known, though as written it is possible that they can research a spell and replace one of their spells known with said spell.

Furthermore, let's consider the potential ramifications of spell research being a flat 100*spell level. Let's say there is an 18th level spontaneous caster who for whatever reason does not have any time constraints. Private Demi-plane with interesting time qualities, lich villain from another Age obsessed with spell research, old+ dragon, just your average elf caster, whatever.

Let's further abstract the sorcerer/wizard (or cleric for an oracle) spell list a bit and say there are 60 spells per spell level. The average cost per spell researched would be 450 gp, and the average time spent would be 4,5 weeks, since that's the median between 1st and 9th level spells.

Said caster could research 540 spells, 60 spells of each level from 1st to 9th, for 243 000 gp. For that cost he'd be able to spontaneously cast any spell on the wizard's spell list in the CRB, or any cleric spell if he was an oracle. And 243 000 gp is roughly half the WBL of an 18th level character.

[gr8artist]

There seems to be a discrepancy in the costs listed. 100 x SL in your link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/downtime#TOC-Research-a-Spell), but 1000 x SL in this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Research-and-Designing-Spells)section.

[Kudaku]

There seems to be a discrepancy in the costs listed. 100 x SL in your link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/downtime#TOC-Research-a-Spell), but 1000 x SL in this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Research-and-Designing-Spells)section.

The downtime system is an alternate and optional game system put out by Paizo in the Ultimate Campaign. The difference in cost is, I believe, deliberate.

[Psyren]

If you have enough downtime to become T1 your campaign clearly isn't that important anyway.

[Kudaku]

If you have enough downtime to become T1 your campaign clearly isn't that important anyway.

I'm more interested in the implications of long-lived NPCs myself. For a dragon for instance, what's forty years of spell research? You have the potential to live for thousands of years anyway. Liches strike me as another strong contender for Researcher of the Century.

[Psyren]

I'm more interested in the implications of long-lived NPCs myself. For a dragon for instance, what's forty years of spell research? You have the potential to live for thousands of years anyway. Liches strike me as another strong contender for Researcher of the Century.

And what are other dragons, adventurers, gods etc. doing while he's doing this? What if he gets hungry, horny, sick or simply bored?

With unlimited downtime, we could learn to play dozens of musical instruments, speak various languages, calculate pi to the nth decimal place. But even people with a lot of time on their hands don't do this kind of thing. (We go to message boards instead :smalltongue:) Just because it's possible to research anything given enough time, doesn't mean people necessarily will.

And even if they do, there are beings out there with a vested interest in keeping these NPCs in check.

[Yora]

I just discovered that AGP has the Expanded Arcana feat, which lets you learn one additional spell of your highest spell level, or two additional spells of lower levels.
Not the same as a spellbook, but as an 8th level sorcerer having four 3rd level spells instead of just two seems pretty neat.

[Squirrel_Dude]

And what are other dragons, adventurers, gods etc. doing while he's doing this? What if he gets hungry, horny, sick or simply bored? If they're a sorcerer Lich with infinite time on their hands, and need money to continue their research? Why, just do a Tar-Baphon and conquer some countries, or convince the majority of Orcs to become your army. You're a Lich. You can do whatever you want & study magic forever. Isn't that the point of becoming one.


That and easy weight-loss.

[Psyren]

If they're a sorcerer Lich with infinite time on their hands, and need money to continue their research? Why, just do a Tar-Baphon and conquer some countries, or convince the majority of Orcs to become your army. You're a Lich. You can do whatever you want & study magic forever. Isn't that the point of becoming one.


That and easy weight-loss.

And those nations you conquer will have no revenge-driven orphans who dedicate their lives training to defeat you? Or the neighboring nations won't try to take you down (openly or secretly) out of fear of being next, greed for your power etc.?

The fact is that if any lich gets too uppity, he starts attracting notice from the Big Leagues. Maruts for example aren't known for their tolerance, even if all the lich wants immortality for is to study in peace; the very existence of such a creature is an affront to the natural order of things. A deity of magic or overdeity might get leery too, since too much power without divine noninterference restrictions could easily result in another Netheril, Cyre or Raumathar. And both the upper and lower planes will want the lich to bite the dust too - the upper so the lich is justly punished, and the lower so the lich forks over the soul that is rightfully their due.

If it were possible for one sorcerer to sit down long enough and become the most powerful user of magic in the material plane, someone would have already done it. And that person would have mastered time travel too to prevent anyone else from doing the same. About the closest analogue you're going to find for this sort of thing is Raistlin, and even he ended up choked in cosmic red tape in the end.

[Halae]

You're going about this the wrong way. Become a lich, but do not conquer; make yourself invaluable to a country. Then, work with them, and get them to fund your spell research. after all, every new spell they have that other kingdoms don't is extra power in their pockets.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Golarion has Tar Baphon. Though he was, in fact, defeated like you said. Kind of. He was stopped from conquering a country (after he terrorized/controlled a few others).

It took a 75 year holy crusade (lead by the future god of Paladins) was launched against him by the most powerful empire in the world (at the time). During the crusade he defeated the God of Humanity's herald. By killed, I mean killed in embarrassing faction.

And by defeated, they put him to sleep and sealed him in a tower. Though those seals are weakening... and he may not be all that asleep... and there may be a cult working to free him...

There's also Nex, but he's weird(er).


Also, if your limit on a casters power to continue to get more powerful or expand their knowledge is "you would get bored." That's just not a very good limit. When most armies are made up of level 10 warriors. We also both know that a Lich doesn't have to spend time on a the material plane if he doesn't want to after a while. Or if he does, it doesn't have to be on the same planet.

[Psyren]

"Boredom" was just one limit among many.

It sounds like your PF lich made a bunch of friends with his conquest. So now there is an actual deity with a very good reason to smack him back down, or anyone else who comes along to do the same things he was doing, for all eternity. Seems like a colossal failure to me.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Well, Golarion is a little weird because the God of Humanity is now believed dead. Following his death the most powerful empire devoted itself after a civil war to Diabolism. There's a giant hole spewing armies of Demons in the North (and an extremely powerful demon corrupting elf forests because he can). The army that guards Tar Baphon's tower is slowly losing ground to the Orc hordes to the north.

So here are more pressing matters to deal with than a sleeping Lich, or the cult trying to wake him up.



Golarion is kind of messed up right now.

[Halae]

Presumably, you can find your way to sigil if you're such a powerful lich. No god problems there.

[Kudaku]

"Boredom" was just one limit among many.

It sounds like your PF lich made a bunch of friends with his conquest. So now there is an actual deity with a very good reason to smack him back down, or anyone else who comes along to do the same things he was doing, for all eternity. Seems like a colossal failure to me.

Your xth level character dies, retires, or is otherwise no longer playable. Your GM asks you to make a new character.

You spend 20 seconds writing a backstory for your new xth level sorcerer that explains how he spent time researching spells before and/or during his adventuring days.

You spend 100 gp per spell level on however many spells you want. You're not greedy, so you merely double the spells known for a sorcerer of your level.

Let's say your new character is level 10. A 10th level sorcerer has 62 000 GP in his WBL budget. The cost of doubling quite literally all his spells known? 3 500 GP.

[TuggyNE]

And those nations you conquer will have no revenge-driven orphans who dedicate their lives training to defeat you? Or the neighboring nations won't try to take you down (openly or secretly) out of fear of being next, greed for your power etc.?

The fact is that if any lich gets too uppity, he starts attracting notice from the Big Leagues. Maruts for example aren't known for their tolerance, even if all the lich wants immortality for is to study in peace; the very existence of such a creature is an affront to the natural order of things. A deity of magic or overdeity might get leery too, since too much power without divine noninterference restrictions could easily result in another Netheril, Cyre or Raumathar. And both the upper and lower planes will want the lich to bite the dust too - the upper so the lich is justly punished, and the lower so the lich forks over the soul that is rightfully their due.

That's just generic lich obstacles; the existence of liches at all suggests they are in no way insuperable, and a researcher lich could fly under the radar a lot better than one who cares mostly about expanding power (like Xykon).

In other words, the posterior probability of surviving as a researcher lich is higher than the prior probability.

[Psyren]

So here are more pressing matters to deal with than a sleeping Lich, or the cult trying to wake him up.

Until he DOES wake up, at which point a number of gods will have their alarm bells going off at full volume. Unless they don't care about their worshipers' welfare at all that is, which is a different problem entirely.


Your xth level character dies, retires, or is otherwise no longer playable. Your GM asks you to make a new character.

You spend 20 seconds writing a backstory for your new xth level sorcerer that explains how he spent time researching spells before and/or during his adventuring days.

You spend 100 gp per spell level on however many spells you want. You're not greedy, so you merely double the spells known for a sorcerer of your level.

Let's say your new character is level 10. A 10th level sorcerer has 62 000 GP in his WBL budget. The cost of doubling quite literally all his spells known? 3 500 GP.

If your DM is willing to let you gloss over all the research failures in your backstory just like that (can't take 10, for instance) then he deserves to deal with whatever monstrosity you cook up.


Presumably, you can find your way to sigil if you're such a powerful lich. No god problems there.

Can you come and go from Sigil freely, or affect all other realms from there with impunity?


That's just generic lich obstacles; the existence of liches at all suggests they are in no way insuperable, and a researcher lich could fly under the radar a lot better than one who cares mostly about expanding power (like Xykon).

In other words, the posterior probability of surviving as a researcher lich is higher than the prior probability.

The existence of liches, yeah - not the existence of one super-lich.

Look at OotS for example - literally every major player in the U has their eyes glued to Xykon. About the only thing we can be sure of is that he will get taken down at some point.

[Halae]

Can you come and go from Sigil freely, or affect all other realms from there with impunity?the idea that you got there willfully in the first place suggests that you have planeswalking magic. Sigil is the center of everything, and every material plane is connected to it, however tangentially. so, to answer your question, yes.

[Psyren]

the idea that you got there willfully in the first place suggests that you have planeswalking magic. Sigil is the center of everything, and every material plane is connected to it. so, to answer your question, yes.

My understanding is that you need portals (and corresponding keys) to enter and exit Sigil - you can't just planeshift in and out willy nilly. And even if you can, the comings and goings of a nigh-omnipotent super-lich are likely to be noteworthy.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Sigil is also home to Lady of Ultimate DM Fiat. So there's that.

[Kudaku]

I'd argue that people have an eye on Xykon because he is a player in the OOTS-equivalent of the Game of Thrones. It's not his personal power level that makes him a priority, it's how he chooses to implement that power.

Think it through - if Xykon retired to his own personal demi-plane and spent the next five decades researching spells instead of conquering cities and claiming the Snarl for himself, he wouldn't have the OoTS hounding him - they wouldn't even know who he was, since he wouldn't have gotten involved with Roy's dad in the first place.

If anything the researching low-profile Lich has a much better chance of survival than the monologue-spewing evil laugh-cackling omnicidal Maniac-Lich. He's not stepping on toes or burning down villages, he's quietly experimenting with magic in a dusty laboratory.


If your DM is willing to let you gloss over all the research failures in your backstory just like that (can't take 10, for instance) then he deserves to deal with whatever monstrosity you cook up.

The DC to research spells is trivial if you consider any kind of options to improve your knowledge/spellcraft. A Magical Depository and a level 1 commoner using the Assist Other option to fetch things for you would bring our teoretical lvl 10 sorcerer (10 int) crafter up to +19 on the Spellcraft Check and the Knowledge (Whatever) check, which means the theoretical sorcerer we're describing can't fail his check.

But fair enough, let's run with it. Our lvl 10 sorcerer is terrible at researching spells. He has 10 ranks, 10 intelligence, no magical items, assists, or any other kind of help despite spending a fair few months researching spells. He lives in a cave in a swamp the entire time, meditating on the forc magic. His spellcraft and knowledge modifier is +13.

So he fails a good number of his checks. The DC is 10 + double spell level, so the hardest check he'll have to make is 20. He fails about 35% of the spellcraft checks, and 35% of the knowledge checks.

Now in all honesty sometimes he'd fail both checks so adding the numbers together to get a failure rate is inaccurate, but hey - why not. We add 70% to the cost of learning the spells. That adds 2450 gp, bringing the total cost of doubling every spell known from level 1 through 5 up to a resounding 5950 gp. Still less than 10% of WBL, and just over half the cost of a single 3rd level spell page.

Now I've answered your questions, stated or implied, so I'd like you to answer one of mine: Do you think spending 100-900 gp and between 1 and 9 weeks of downtime is a reasonable balance for a spontaneous caster to add spells to his list?

[The Random NPC]

I just discovered that AGP has the Expanded Arcana feat, which lets you learn one additional spell of your highest spell level, or two additional spells of lower levels.
Not the same as a spellbook, but as an 8th level sorcerer having four 3rd level spells instead of just two seems pretty neat.

With the feat retraining rules, you could (as a wizard) get that feat, scribe a scroll (just in case your GM rules it disappears from your spellbook) and train the Expanded Arcana feat into Alertness. Then you train it back to Expanded Arcana and get another couple of spells.

[Psyren]

I'd argue that people have an eye on Xykon because he is a player in the OOTS-equivalent of the Game of Thrones. It's not his personal power level that makes him a priority, it's how he chooses to implement that power.

Think it through - if Xykon retired to his own personal demi-plane and spent the next five decades researching spells instead of conquering cities and claiming the Snarl for himself, he wouldn't have the OoTS hounding him - they wouldn't even know who he was, since he wouldn't have gotten involved with Roy's dad in the first place.

If anything the researching low-profile Lich has a much better chance of survival than the monologue-spewing evil laugh-cackling omnicidal Maniac-Lich. He's not stepping on toes or burning down villages, he's quietly experimenting with magic in a dusty laboratory.

As far as OotS is concerned you have a point, though the evil he committed during life would still require restitution of some kind. But that's only due to the high level of laissez-faire that OotS gods have. Other D&D settings would be less content to let such a prominent figure simply cloister himself away - he would either be sought after as a pawn or as a target in a setting like FR, Ravenloft, Eberron or Dark Sun. There would be scheming outsiders, other liches, mages guilds, organizations like Thay and Rashemen and the Zhentarim etc. for the hypothetical lich to contend with, even if he somehow got to the level of power and knowledge he now holds without aligning with or opposing any existing faction in the 'verse somehow.

OotS glosses this over - the Scribble got to low-epics somehow barely making a footprint in the world, with the possible exception of Soon. Xykon and Redcloak got to high levels through... nobody knows how, really, because there's very little to have realistically challenged them, and none of it organized.

But actual D&D settings? Before they even hit level 15, some major organization/faith would have either recruited them or sworn to have their heads.




Now I've answered your questions, stated or implied, so I'd like you to answer one of mine: Do you think spending 100-900 gp and between 1 and 9 weeks of downtime is a reasonable balance for a spontaneous caster to add spells to his list?

During a campaign, 1 to 9 weeks of downtime is the fault of the DM, and so he should be prepared to either deal with the consequences of this kind of research or come up with reasons why it won't work.

As part of a backstory I find it abusive, even if the campaign is starting at an advanced level. How long did it take that sorcerer to get his normal level 10 complement? I would refuse to believe he spent all that time on extra research, needing none of it to actually get to level 10 itself.

[Kudaku]

During a campaign, 1 to 9 weeks of downtime is the fault of the DM, and so he should be prepared to either deal with the consequences of this kind of research or come up with reasons why it won't work.

As part of a backstory I find it abusive, even if the campaign is starting at an advanced level. How long did it take that sorcerer to get his normal level 10 complement? I would refuse to believe he spent all that time on extra research, needing none of it to actually get to level 10 itself.

You didn't answer my question :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

You didn't answer my question :smalltongue:

Depends on how many (extra) spells.

[Kudaku]

Depends on how many (extra) spells.

Then where is the cut-off point?

[Keneth]

Personally I took that to mean that if you are researching a 9th level spell then you pay 900 gp per day of research, and you spend 63 days researching before you finish the spell and add it to your spells known.

That's because it is per day of research. You have to pay that cost each time you perform the spell research action during a day of downtime. Be that as it may, the price is not unreasonable, especially when paying with magic points.

In most campaigns, you won't have enough downtime to research a lot of spells anyway, and in campaigns that start at higher levels, your GM can enforce arbitrary limits, just like he can with crafted items.

And as far as liches and dragons are concerned, nothing's really changed, has it? They can't do any more researching than they could before. In fact, they can do less researching since it takes longer. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Then where is the cut-off point?

I'm not sure what you mean. 100gp * spell level each day for 7 * spell level days with 2 skill checks per day seems like a reasonable baseline to me. The gold and DC aren't the primary limiting factors as I said before, the time is - as it should be.

[137beth]

Then where is the cut-off point?

The cut-off point depends on the campaign and the rest of the party, which is why you have an intelligent GM who can adjust things to fit the game:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The cut-off point depends on the campaign and the rest of the party, which is why you have an intelligent GM who can adjust things to fit the game:smalltongue:

You get a cookie, ser.

[avr]

It should be an option to allow downtime rather than have all campaigns be a whirlwind rush from start to finish, surely? I can't agree that allowing downtime between adventures implies you are a bad DM.

IMO this spell research system looks fine if it replaces spells known for a sorcerer, but is a mistake if it allows unlimited spells known.

[Keneth]

If you're allowing extensive downtime and your players spend it only on spell research and item crafting, then the downtime system is wasted on the party. If they utilize the system fully, then they won't be researching many spells anyway. Unless your campaign is running for years. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, sorcerers already have ways of getting any and all spells if they want to, so this doesn't really change much.

[Kudaku]

I'm not sure what you mean. 100gp * spell level each day for 7 * spell level days with 2 skill checks per day seems like a reasonable baseline to me. The gold and DC aren't the primary limiting factors as I said before, the time is - as it should be.

That's not what we've been discussing :smallsigh:

All my posts all my math, and indeed the question I posed to you directly have been based on the OP's interpretation of the downtime crafting rules - the same posts you've been responding to. I've been trying to illustrate how having the cost of researching spells be a flat 100 * spell level, instead of (the, as far as I can tell, intended) 100GP * spell level * research days spent, would dramatically change the state of the game for spontaneous casters. If you'd been paying attention to the cost estimates I've been posting then that would have been obvious.

Near as I can tell you're either changing your argument mid-discussion or you just haven't been reading this thread very thoroughly.


The cut-off point depends on the campaign and the rest of the party, which is why you have an intelligent GM who can adjust things to fit the game:smalltongue:

That is a cheap way answer to a complicated problem, obviously judicious application of rule zero will solve any rule-related problem - any problem in PF can be solved by an intelligent and well-prepared GM who has a thorough understanding of rules mechanics and can adjust the rules to fit his game. However, ideally, a well written rule doesn't require the GM to predict and adjust for the problem ahead of time. "This isn't broken because it's totally fixable if you have the right tools and you know what you're doing" is very different from "this isn't broken".

[Raven777]

If it were possible for one sorcerer to sit down long enough and become the most powerful user of magic in the material plane, someone would have already done it.

This argument is a fallacy. It is best to avoid using it. If that someone told himself the same thing, he would never have tried either. And so nobody would try, ever. Which means that our actual Sorcerer could very well be the first one to try. QED.

As for the Gods in Golarion, Psyren, neither the Good or Evil ones are the kind of Gods who bother much going after mortal affairs. As mentioned previously, the setting's largest empire is currently Hell's little pet project and worships Asmodeus as a patron saint, and you do not see angels knocking at their doors. Their flag even has something that looks like a swastika (http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/159312/Cheliax.jpg). Meanwhile, there's a Grand Canyon sized hole somewhere that spews forth demons on a daily basis, and it takes heroes going through an Adventure Path based around Pathfinder's equivalent to Epic Levels (Mythic Tiers) to keep them down. Have we mentioned the evil Witches who rule over most of the North? Because their queen is an extra planar alien being who just abducts hundreds of people every century or so and is let to do whatever she wants. No God ever stepped in to stop her. Oh, and let's not forget Rahadoum, the kingdom who successfully outlawed worship on any deity for the last couple centuries, with no divine retribution whatsoever. Conclusion : the Pathfinder Gods do not give a toss about what goes on at ground level, and I reserve the right to throw the Inner Sea Guide to the face of any DM who pretends otherwise.

[Psyren]

Near as I can tell you're either changing your argument mid-discussion or you just haven't been reading this thread very thoroughly.

No, I didn't know you guys were having some side-discussion about a houserule in the middle of the thread discussing actual rules. That wouldn't be confusing to anyone.



However, ideally, a well written rule doesn't require the GM to predict and adjust for the problem ahead of time.

This is quite simply ridiculous; any rule whose outcome is an unknown quantity (custom items, custom spells, custom progressions, custom class features etc.) is going to have unpredictable results. Yes, GMs should be ready to step in and veto even though there is a rule in place.


This argument is a fallacy. It is best to avoid using it. If that someone told himself the same thing, he would never have tried either. And so nobody would try, ever. Which means that our actual Sorcerer could very well be the first one to try. QED.

Your logic falls apart in any system with divinations, portfolios, and already-existing high-powered factions who have both a vested interest in the status quo and the means of detecting threats to same.

As for the gods, they may not interfere directly, but I find it hard to believe that Sarenrae (for example) would simply leave a lich alone to conquer nations and achieve infinite levels of power.

[TuggyNE]

As for the gods, they may not interfere directly, but I find it hard to believe that Sarenrae (for example) would simply leave a lich alone to conquer nations and achieve infinite levels of power.

Correct me if I am incorrect, but wasn't the whole point of this to remove the Spells Known on a PC Sorcerer? Any nation-conquering they do is strictly optional, and infinite levels of power are not in the cards; greatly increased versatility in the game, however, is, to the point of tending to obsolete other caster classes.

So all this stuff about things NPCs might do to other NPCs seems largely irrelevant in the face of what you can get for your character. In fact, the original suggestion to conquer nations was a rather flippant attempt at bypassing WBL (and probably unnecessary at that).

[Psyren]

If we're talking from a strict game sense, then solving the problem is as easy as the DM saying "no, I don't want you to spontaneously cast every spell on the sorcerer list."

If we're talking simulation, as in "why wouldn't anyone in-universe try this," that's where all the NPC and deity stuff comes in.

The latter was the topic raised by Kudaku that spawned this child-discussion.

[Kudaku]

No, I didn't know you guys were having some side-discussion about a houserule in the middle of the thread discussing actual rules. That wouldn't be confusing to anyone.

Why do you think I asked you point blank and repeatedly if you supported the OPs ruling of spell research? Either you couldn't be bothered to read the question or you changed your mind halfway through the thread. I'd still like to know which is the real answer.

As for rule zero, yes - I think that whenever a GM has to use rule zero that's a defeat for the rules in question, and not really a solution at all for the system itself. Again, and I'll bold it this time so I'm sure you see it, ideally a rule should be written in such a way that the GM has no need to step in and adjudicate it, since the rule should be clearly and unmistakeably understandable in its own right.

[Psyren]

Why do you think I asked you point blank and repeatedly if you supported the OPs ruling of spell research? Either you couldn't be bothered to read the question or you changed your mind halfway through the thread. I'd still like to know which is the real answer.

Er, didn't I just answer that? (Who's not reading who now :smallwink:)
As I just told you, I thought you were talking the default downtime rules... like the rest of the thread was.



Again, and I'll bold it this time so I'm sure you see it,

y so srs? :smalltongue:



ideally a rule should be written in such a way that the GM has no need to step in and adjudicate it, since the rule should be clearly and unmistakeably understandable in its own right.

Show me a game whose rules never require adjudication, and I'll show you checkers. It's just the nature of the beast once you have complex interactions, and situations the designers didn't account for. Doubly so when, once again, dealing with rules intended to lead to an unknown quantity.

[Erik Vale]

After a page of lich argument I'm skipping a bit to say:

Why become a lich? Become a Elan, then you have no one going out of there way to kill you. And if you can't force a Elan council/whatever to turn you into a Elan, your doing something wrong.

[Coidzor]

I just discovered that AGP has the Expanded Arcana feat, which lets you learn one additional spell of your highest spell level, or two additional spells of lower levels.
Not the same as a spellbook, but as an 8th level sorcerer having four 3rd level spells instead of just two seems pretty neat.

Isn't there some kind of trick related to getting this feat as needed using a half-elf only spell or something?


There seems to be a discrepancy in the costs listed. 100 x SL in your link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/downtime#TOC-Research-a-Spell), but 1000 x SL in this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Research-and-Designing-Spells)section.

I believe that's learning a spell versus creating a spell. :smallconfused:


And even if they do, there are beings out there with a vested interest in keeping these NPCs in check.

What, the same ones that roflstomp Batman and GOD Wizards before they can get 9th level spells? Or the ones that are set aside for Tippy-level events?


I'm not sure what you mean. 100gp * spell level each day for 7 * spell level days with 2 skill checks per day seems like a reasonable baseline to me. The gold and DC aren't the primary limiting factors as I said before, the time is - as it should be.

So you both hate the idea of it ever being used and yet find it reasonable? :smallconfused:


With the feat retraining rules, you could (as a wizard) get that feat, scribe a scroll (just in case your GM rules it disappears from your spellbook) and train the Expanded Arcana feat into Alertness. Then you train it back to Expanded Arcana and get another couple of spells.

You'd have to be something like an ultimate magus to get that to really work though. Or retrain levels from wizard to sorcerer and back again. :smallconfused:


Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer. You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times.

[MukkTB]

I don't see the *problem* here given what is possible from optimization. In play, a specialist Wizard is going to be better than our hypothetical researcher Sorcerer by virtue of being a level ahead on getting access to higher level spells. Not to mention the fact that in play the time constraint can be a problem. A T1 Sorcerer isn't that much more broken than a T2 Sorcerer. A level 20 research Sorcerer will be better than a Wizard. Big whoop. A level 20 wizard is a god made flesh. Slightly better than that is hardly noticeable.

[TuggyNE]

Show me a game whose rules never require adjudication, and I'll show you checkers. It's just the nature of the beast once you have complex interactions, and situations the designers didn't account for. Doubly so when, once again, dealing with rules intended to lead to an unknown quantity.

I'd go with chess, which is deep and fulfilling, but constructed with rules exemplary in their comparative simplicity. It's not difficult to play all but the highest-stakes chess games without any referee.

Not, of course, that RPGs of D&D's general philosophy are ever at all likely to simplify to nearly that extent.


Become a Elan, then you have no one going out of there way to kill you.

You're sure? The incredible world-shattering power of researching spells will certainly motivate all and sundry* to attack you in unison.

*The latter being, I don't know, undead raised by the opposing casters? Maybe summons?

[The Random NPC]

Isn't there some kind of trick related to getting this feat as needed using a half-elf only spell or something?

Paragon Surge, Half-Elf only spell that grants a feat. Also gives +2 Dex and Int, but we don't care about that.


You'd have to be something like an ultimate magus to get that to really work though. Or retrain levels from wizard to sorcerer and back again. :smallconfused:

Ah good to know.

[Keneth]

Paragon Surge, Half-Elf only spell that grants a feat. Also gives +2 Dex and Int, but we don't care about that.

Hasn't everyone banned that spell yet? I'm pretty sure they have. :smallbiggrin:

Are we still arguing about this? The cost bit has long since been cleared up, and anyone who doesn't like sorcerers expanding their spell repertoire can simply houserule the words "spells known" to "spell list" and all your problems are solved. Make sure to ban pages of spell knowledge while you're at it, as well as the human favored class bonus and Expanded Arcana feat for good measure.

[Raven777]

Hasn't everyone banned that spell yet? I'm pretty sure they have. :smallbiggrin:

Are we still arguing about this? The cost bit has long since been cleared up, and anyone who doesn't like sorcerers expanding their spell repertoire can simply houserule the words "spells known" to "spell list" and all your problems are solved. Make sure to ban pages of spell knowledge while you're at it, as well as the human favored class bonus and Expanded Arcana feat for good measure.

Don't forget the Mnemonic Vestment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic)! (a.k.a. Robe of Once-a-Day Wizardry)

[Psyren]

So you both hate the idea of it ever being used and yet find it reasonable? :smallconfused:

I hate the idea of it being abused to remove the restriction of a spells known sublist. Using it to add a handful of extra spells is a-okay.

I like the idea of using radiation to help preserve food, that doesn't mean I'm going to throw the contents of my fridge into Chernobyl. Degrees.

[Halae]

I hate the idea of it being abused to remove the restriction of a spells known sublist. Using it to add a handful of extra spells is a-okay.

I like the idea of using radiation to help preserve food, that doesn't mean I'm going to throw the contents of my fridge into Chernobyl. Degrees.

I think we can agree there. anything in excess is too much, but adding maybe a couple spells per spell level to a sorcerer isn't anything game breaking, and the player pays for it in-game with gold and time

[gr8artist]

I'm still confused as to the cost...
100 x SL
1000 x SL
100 x SL x Days
1000 x SL x Days
There's a noticeable difference in cost. Someone suggested that it was the difference between learning someone else's and making your own from scratch, but that's not what the downtime rules state.

I'm guessing that the original rules were simplistic and vague (meant for wizards with backstory to use WBL and not crafting time) and so used the 1000 x SL formula.
But if we want to do it in game, then we use the 100 x SL x days math, including failed checks, etc.

[Coidzor]

I'm still confused as to the cost...
100 x SL
1000 x SL
100 x SL x Days
1000 x SL x Days

There's two sets of rules. The Downtime one, which it was being argued whether the 100 * Spell Level was per day or per spell researched and the other one which was just 1000 * Spell Level, no days involved or mentioned whatsoever in regards to the cost.

You should only have three options there instead of those four.


There's a noticeable difference in cost. Someone suggested that it was the difference between learning someone else's and making your own from scratch, but that's not what the downtime rules state.

Well what's the actual source on the section that's published in the magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Research-and-Designing-Spells)section of the PFSRD? It may be necessary to check the language there.

The very first paragraph under the heading "Research and Designing Spells" is exclusively about designing a new spell (since you don't need to write up a spell description for Fireball, because that's already been done for you by Paizo)

The following sub-sections as well as the next section, "Good and Bad Spells," discusses how to gauge the power level of a spell that is being designed.

Then the section that actually discusses the cost is titled "Creating a Spell," and the table and language are exclusively about making a new spell from scratch, not learning an existing spell.

Everything I've read there says that it's a set of rules and guidelines for creating new spells to add to the game or with a generous reading, getting spells from another spell list added to one's spell list, creating an arcane version of, say, Flame Strike. It never actually discusses just researching an existing spell.


I'm guessing that the original rules were simplistic and vague (meant for wizards with backstory to use WBL and not crafting time) and so used the 1000 x SL formula.
But if we want to do it in game, then we use the 100 x SL x days math, including failed checks, etc.

I believe it mostly depends on if you're in downtime and using downtime or not. If you're not in downtime then you can't use the downtime rules.

[dascarletm]

Bah! I hate it when campaigns have 0 downtime. It's fun to spend like a month in a city, plus everyone who takes crafting feats/skills doesn't feel as though they wasted their investment.

[Keneth]

and the other one which was just 1000 * Spell Level

It should probably be noted that in the original method 1000 * Spell Level was just a rough baseline, the rules explicitly state that some spells might require more than that. And you could also pay extra to reduce the DC. The price in the downtime rules is fixed though.


Everything I've read there says that it's a set of rules and guidelines for creating new spells to add to the game or with a generous reading, getting spells from another spell list added to one's spell list, creating an arcane version of, say, Flame Strike. It never actually discusses just researching an existing spell.

Researching spells from other spell lists is indeed possible. In fact, characters on Golarion are stated to have done so on at least one occasion. This is what I perceive to be meant as "other sources". I don't think "researching" spells from your own spell list is possible, considering they're already available to you, but as I've stated before, you can always just make minor adjustments to a spell (in a similar fashion as someone changed ray of exhaustion to heatstroke), if your GM will let you get away with it.