Force Golem as PC

[Yogibear41]

Would a force golem(mmV p. 68) as a PC be overpowered? Starts with 4 racial hit die and no LA so saying its equivalent to a 4th level character.

Going by its ability scores it should have +8 to str +6 to dex +2 to int and +4 to cha and no con score(assuming the whole if odd subtract 11 and if even subtract 10 standard)

Would it be better if its size was reduced from large to medium, and thereby changing its stats thusly: -8 to str +2 to dex -2 to natural armor? (going by chart in MM p.291)

[Flickerdart]

Would a force golem(mmV p. 68) as a PC be overpowered? Starts with 4 racial hit die and no LA so saying its equivalent to a 4th level character.
That's not what an unlisted LA means in a monster entry. Force Golems are not 4th level characters, they are inappropriate for PCs, period.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If it does not list a level adjustment, then it's not suitable to be used as a PC race. There is a 'For Player Characters' section in its entry, detailing how one may be created by PCs and used as a minion, but it cannot be played as a PC.

Your DM may choose to houserule it and assign a level adjustment, but in this case expect it to be in the neighborhood of LA +6.

[Yogibear41]

LA+6 as in 4 hit die +6 or just as a 6th level? I dont think its good enough for a +6 on top of its 4 racial hit die.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

LA+6 as in 4 hit die +6 or just as a 6th level? I dont think its good enough for a +6 on top of its 4 racial hit die.

Compared to other physically strong CR 4 monsters, ECL 10 is fairly standard for its array of abilities. Yes, 4 HD and +6 LA for ECL 10. Also remember that most monstrous races just aren't worth playing.

I'd suggest playing a Wizard, taking the Effigy Master prestige class in CA, and creating one as a minion, rather than playing one.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's a golem and therefore immune to magic. On top of that it has DR 5/Adamantine. On top of that, it has the ability to move an opponent as an immediate action to another square whenever they miss.

AKA:
Enemy: Makes a 5 ft. step in to attack the golem. *rolls* It misses
Player: I move the enemy 5 feet backwards.
Enemy: I stand here and look like a derp for the rest of my turn.

I mean, I guess it has bad fort and will saves, oh wait, it's a golem. It's immune to almost everything that would cause those saves. Oh, and sneak attacks, it's immune to those too. And it can hit ethereal creatures, cause it's made of force.


Yeah, LA+6 sounds about right.

[lord_khaine]

LA+6 is maybe just a bit above the top, 4 racial HD is a solid penalty, there are a lot of spells that work on golems, and not having a con score hurts a bit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

LA+6 is maybe just a bit above the top, 4 racial HD is a solid penalty, there are a lot of spells that work on golems, and not having a con score hurts a bit.

As a monster, it's easy for PCs to bypass magic immunity with no-SR spells. But as a PC, opponents aren't going to be able to bypass its magic immunity very often, if at all.

[Yogibear41]

Well in the game I play in monsters using magic is kinda rare, its been over a year and I can probably count on one hand the number of monsters who have used spells against us.

[TuggyNE]

LA+6 is maybe just a bit above the top, 4 racial HD is a solid penalty, there are a lot of spells that work on golems, and not having a con score hurts a bit.

How many is a lot? Summons, except most of them are going to have trouble with the DR; orb spells and hail of stone, but those don't do a ton of damage unless you put some effort into making them useful; their special vulnerabilities, which tend to require some forethought; some BFC-ish spells, but magic items* can help with most of those.

Stuff like Swift Hunter or golemstrike are rarely found except on PCs or high-op opponents, so no precision damage is likely either.

Not sure what LA I'd assign, but there are some pretty substantial benefits.

*Hmm, interesting question: can a golem benefit from magic items? For example, gauntlets of ogre strength or ring of freedom of movement.

[Flickerdart]

*Hmm, interesting question: can a golem benefit from magic items? For example, gauntlets of ogre strength or ring of freedom of movement.
I don't see why not. Wondrous items aren't spells.

[Tvtyrant]

I say just play it by HD +1. The RAW of LA is terribly designed and almost inevitably makes the player worse than if they just played a normal class. I find it perfectly acceptable to ignore it and make up your own system.

[eggynack]

Wow. You could do some really good work with items on a golem. As you mentioned, a ring of freedom of movement stops most BFC's in the game. After that, you mostly need a way to get around summons. I'm thinking magic circle against evil, and maybe a second one against good, for completeness. If you can't just get a magic item that projects one, you could get an item that casts one, use activated style, and carry around a ferret of some kind. Then you're pretty much immune to summoned creatures as well. After that, you've pretty much just got conjured blast spells, and energy resistance of various kinds does good work against those. It might also be a good idea to find a way around your force vulnerability. Maybe some item that casts shield, to stop magic missiles. Force isn't exactly the most common thing in the world, but some of those spells are going to be pretty good, and I can't think of much in the way of ways around it. Still, you're stopping just about every spell that doesn't work in an AMF, so it's a good start.

[Fouredged Sword]

I totally had a major semi evil who ruled a small country with with a small group of decked out stone golems.

With the right gear they can take on just about anything, and back them up with some casting support, and you have very power creatures.

Remember, magic immunity is SR infinite. SR can be lowered voluntarily to accept all day buffs and DMM persisted stuff before combat.

Energy resist, spell parrying weapons (for a few key spells) COP's...

Golems are a good base to stack a real monster on.

[ddude987]

If you drop it to medium size and house rule it has lliving construct traits instead of construct than 4 racial hit dice would be appropriate imo. Might need a la +1 on top then aagin as a dm I tend to underrate overpowered things

[Yogibear41]

Remember, magic immunity is SR infinite. SR can be lowered voluntarily to accept all day buffs and DMM persisted stuff before combat.


Are you sure about that? I thought that even beneficial spells could never effect them?

[Samalpetey]

I totally had a major semi evil who ruled a small country with with a small group of decked out stone golems.

With the right gear they can take on just about anything, and back them up with some casting support, and you have very power creatures.

Remember, magic immunity is SR infinite. SR can be lowered voluntarily to accept all day buffs and DMM persisted stuff before combat.

Energy resist, spell parrying weapons (for a few key spells) COP's...

Golems are a good base to stack a real monster on.

Going by the clay golem's entry on the SRD, it doesn't have infinite spell resistance, it's flat out immune to anything that offers it. Therefore, if it can be ignored by spell resistance, it's ignored by a golem. Period. I'm not entirely sure, but I think the infinite spell resistance thing is a 3rd ed thing.

[limejuicepowder]

LA +6 sounds way too harsh to me, and exactly the kind of thinking that made the most monster races unplayable. "It's got 1-2 really good abilities, so we'll gimp it with massive losses everywhere else."

At ECL 10, the golem would have 4 HD. Without a con score, his hit points would be about 25. That's lower than a 10th level sorc with 14 con, and he'd lack most of the sorcerer's protection. The DR could be 15/-, and this character would still be utterly incapable of approaching any enemy at risk of a one-shot death.

So now what does he do? He can't cast, he can't melee, and being a golem I don't think his range is great either (especially against CR 10 monsters). I don't even really know the creature and I'd still bet on a hill giant winning near 100% of the time, and they'll CR 7. Basically, his only hope is that enemy casters waste spell slots on him...and that's it.

[Karnith]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the infinite spell resistance thing is a 3rd ed thing.
Actually, while "infinite spell resistance" isn't literally a thing in 3.5, Spell Immunity is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity):

A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.
(Emphasis mine)

So something with Spell Immunity has effective SR: Infinite (or SR: Can't Be Overcome), and can cast spells on itself that allow SR normally or lower its spell immunity to receive spells from other characters, while a golem's Immunity to Magic prevents it from being able to do so.

EDIT: Though I should probably mention that a golem could cast most Target: You spells on itself, as they don't allow for SR.

[nyjastul69]

Actually, while "infinite spell resistance" isn't literally a thing in 3.5, Spell Immunity is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity):

(Emphasis mine)

So something with Spell Immunity has effective SR: Infinite (or SR: Can't Be Overcome), and can cast spells on itself that allow SR normally or lower its spell immunity to receive spells from other characters, while a golem's Immunity to Magic prevents it from being able to do so.

EDIT: Though I should probably mention that a golem could cast most Target: You spells on itself, as they don't allow for SR.

As you quoted spell immunity acts exactly as SR except that it cannot be overcome, nothing stops a golem from voluntarily lowering it.

[Karnith]

As you quoted spell immunity acts exactly as SR except that it cannot be overcome, nothing stops a golem from voluntarily lowering it.
Golems don't have Spell Immunity. They have Immunity to Magic. They are separate, though similar, abilities.

[Samalpetey]

As you quoted spell immunity acts exactly as SR except that it cannot be overcome, nothing stops a golem from voluntarily lowering it.

Except golems have "Immunity to magic", which is worded differently. From the srd "A x golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance."

EDIT: Darn, ninja'd

[nyjastul69]

Golems don't have Spell Immunity. They have Immunity to Magic. They are separate, though similar, abilities.

Crap! Reading comprehension failure. Please continue. :smalleek:

[Karnith]

Crap! Reading comprehension failure. Please continue. :smalleek:
No problem, especially considering that there are many golems with Immunity to Magic, and only one creature, so far as I am aware, with some form of Spell Immunity (unless we're counting enemies who can cast Spell Immunity).

[nyjastul69]

No problem, especially considering that there are many golems with Immunity to Magic, and only one creature, so far as I am aware, with some form of Spell Immunity (unless we're counting enemies who can cast Spell Immunity).

Yeah, I simply confused the two obviously separate qualities.

[137beth]

Okay, I'd say LA +6 would put it on a similar power level as other ECL 10 monsters. However, this does not mean that LA +6 is appropriate. The goal should be to find an LA to make it comparably powered to playing a normal PC race.
A big thing of note is whether your game is allowing buyoff of RHD. If not, 4RHD is a pretty severe penalty. In that case, I'd probably go with LA +2-3, so that you can buy-off the level adjustment. You still have a pretty sizeable penalty, and you miss out on buff spells that the party's caster uses due to magic immunity.

[Yogibear41]

So I found this http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.340 thread on brilliantgameologists( its close to the bottom of the page so scroll down) where people redesign creatures to be used as player characters, and I came across a reworked version of the force golem, now the ability modifiers on it aren't as high as the ones in the book would be but after reading through its abilities it seems better than the original to me. What do yall think is this viable as a Player Class/race?

[lord_khaine]

Its certainly a more viable choice than having 4 RHD and a LA of 4-5, not to mention it has become a much more interesting race with with more options.

Of course, one of these races is homebrewed, and the other isnt meant for being a PC at all, so in the end it all comes down to what you can convince your gm to let you play.