[PF] - Antipaladin/Cleric (undead lord archtype)- Looking for guidance on 1-20 build

[Uriain]

Hello all,

I am currently lvl 4 in a custom evil campaign centered around followers of Mitra wiping out evil (Asmodeus) from their realm. Current task is to basically fight back and bring in some wins for "team evil".

As I said, I am currently level 4, with initial level in Anti-Paladin and 3 levels in cleric (undead lord archtype). This campaign doesn't allow chaotic evil, so DM allowed me to have my alignment as either Neutral Evil/Lawful Evil for the Antipaladin (instead of Chaotic Evil). My goal for this character was to play up Death (Horsemen) as my deity is Charon, and have the party "contract" (rest of them are Asmodues followers) my assistance for the game.

My problem is, I want to be both a decent summoner and a decent fighter. My current feats are;

Spell focus: Necromancy
Greater spell focus: Necromancy
Weapon Focus: Scythe (more thematic than optimal)

My question to you fine people is this - Which would be a better "dominant" class to go with so that I can be pretty good at both creating undead/casting and pretty good at fighting. Not the best, but almost utility (plan on fear bombing a lot with the Antipaladin abillity 'Aura of Cowardice')

Any help would be most appreciated :D

[Malvanis]

You could gain the death knight template. It gives some abilities and ghoul followers. The book is Monster Manuel 2, if you wanna take a look. LA 4, though I may be mistaken.

[graymachine]

Is LA buyoff available? If so, Death Knight (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/deathknight.shtml), as Malvanus suggested, would be a good fit, although it is a +5 LA, not +4.

If you do go undead, make sure that the necromancer in question Desecrates the area first and has a few of the Corpse-crafted feats for extra hp per HD to offset the undead low hp problem.

Is Death Knight a road you want to go down? If so, are we rebuilding here?

[Malvanis]

I believe one can become a Death Knight through a ritual later on.

[graymachine]

I believe one can become a Death Knight through a ritual later on.

I don't know if there is a ritual; don't see one in the template, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Still, I would prefer the route of a prepared necromancer for the aforementioned hp; death knights don't get CHA to hp, so that extra 6hp per HD is going to make the difference for this frontline character at level 20 (250 hp versus 130 hp, if I'm not mistaken) and costs nothing but gold an the time to find the right necromancer.

I was asking about whether this was a rebuild so that we would know if we can clear the floor, as it were, and start from scratch. Also, we could discuss some important 1st level decisions.

Either way, for the purposes of presenting a 20 level breakdown, we can just plug in the Death Knight template where it makes the most sense, but if there is no LA buyoff then +5 is simply too steep.

[Uriain]

Sorry maybe I the way I described it wasn't the right way.

I am using the antipaladin class and the cleric class with undead lord arch type.

I was thinking (and realized I hadn't considered all the paths I could choose) that I wanted a a character basically like Lord Soth (DragonLance) where there is some good fighting ability as well as a some clerical casting ability.

I have to look into this deathknight option as I am using pathfinder exclusively. Does that change how this may work??

[graymachine]

Sorry maybe I the way I described it wasn't the right way.

I am using the antipaladin class and the cleric class with undead lord arch type.

I was thinking (and realized I hadn't considered all the paths I could choose) that I wanted a a character basically like Lord Soth (DragonLance) where there is some good fighting ability as well as a some clerical casting ability.

I have to look into this deathknight option as I am using pathfinder exclusively. Does that change how this may work??

Oh, Pathfinder. You want to specify that you mean Pathfinder on this 3.5 board. I would say look for a death knight template in Pathfinder material. If you can't find one the 3.5 version should be easy enough to port over.

Here (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/12744.aspx) is a build of Lord Soth. Looks semi-official and uses death knight.

[Uriain]

Altered the title of this thread to be much clearer.

was looking into the Lord soth build and the Deathknight build. Both look good, though I don't know how I could turn into either of these builds as a level 4 character and advance as them.

That is really the crux of my problem, is playing through a campaign from low level to 18-20 to get to these end stages as the Deathknight or Lord Soth style build.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well pathfinder has "Grave Knights" but its buyoff system is so different that your LA would end up at something like +5

Instead consider the Knight of the Sepulcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/knight-of-the-sepulcher) Anti-Paladin Archetype if you want to be undead.

[graymachine]

Yeah, Knight of the Sepulcher seems to be your best option, but I would stop taking levels at 15 as the 17th level ability isn't impressive. Furthermore, the capstone is worthless since the few remaining advantages of being undead can easily be replicated by a few magic items, unless you really want the undead type.

I'd still worry about efficiency in regards to optimization; how optimized is your group? A DM that runs a tight game is going to turn this character into hamburger.

[Uriain]

DM is new, so we are not worried to much about running an optimized game.

We have a divination wizard (played by a guy who has a lot of experience with the game) a whirling dirvish/monk, a drow ranger, and a Human Fighter. myself included as this hybrid fighter/cleric style character rounds us out.

Not super optimized, thus the question of 'cleric heavy or antipaladin heavy'. Cleric aspect allows me to heal/buff, it also allows me to raise dead quite well.

[graymachine]

Hrm. In that case, I would lean more toward cleric just to increase your party's access to divine magic, especially since you are their primary access to it (ranger doesn't count much until late game.) Cleric 10/KotS 10 is tempting, but I think Cleric 15/KotS 5 would probably be better; what you are losing from KotS can be replaced with magic items and/or spells.

[Uriain]

I was also leaning heavily toward the 13-15 cleric/5-7 KotS build. Good to know I was thinking in the right direction.

I guess my only other question would be, what order do I level into that build.

Currently I am;

Lvl 1 Antipaladin
Lvl 2-4 Cleric

[graymachine]

I was also leaning heavily toward the 13-15 cleric/5-7 KotS build. Good to know I was thinking in the right direction.

I guess my only other question would be, what order do I level into that build.

Currently I am;

Lvl 1 Antipaladin
Lvl 2-4 Cleric

The immunities at KotS 10 are what's tempting for more levels past 5th, especially since they replace just a Smite. 8th level KotS sucks; immunity to poison is weak and Darkvision isn't significant. The only thing that you are getting from Antipaladin level 6 and 7 is full BAB and saves; Cruelty and another Smite Good are nothing to write home about.

Conversely, by dumping Cleric level 14 and 15 you are losing 8th level spells. Also, looking at the Cleric class, you are not losing any BAB as those two levels both advance. So you are trading 8th level spells and another die of Channel Energy for a small boost to saves and two mediocre abilities; I would stick with Cleric 15/KotS 5, unless you want to go Cleric 10/KotS 10; KotS doesn't get another good benefit until 10th level.

EDIT: Assuming you go with my reasoning, I would go ahead and knock out the other 4 levels of Antipaladin with the KotS archetype, then just take straight Cleric. Are there any PrCs you were considering?

[Uriain]

No, I was not considering any PrC's for this campaign, I run a "good" cleric in another campaign and a monk in a campaign coming up.. I have not found a PrC that works with the campaigns/feel of the character yet.

[Squirrel_Dude]

If you're going to multiclass Antipaladin and Cleric, I wouldn't recommend taking more than 2 levels of Antipaladin. I'd just take it for that smite good 1/day and the charisma bonus to all saves (which will be high if you're controlling undead).

Take 4 levels of it if you want to improve you Base Attack Bonus beyond what a Cleric would normally have at high levels, and other antipaladin powers.

[graymachine]

If you're going to multiclass Antipaladin and Cleric, I wouldn't recommend taking more than 2 levels of Antipaladin. I'd just take it for that smite good 1/day and the charisma bonus to all saves (which will be high if you're controlling undead).

Take 4 levels of it if you want to improve you Base Attack Bonus beyond what a Cleric would normally have at high levels, and other antipaladin powers.

Current recommendation is 15 levels of Cleric and 5 levels of Antipaladin with the Knight of the Sepulcher archetype. I agree with your sentiment; if they are thinking of fewer KotS levels then I would dump it completely and just get flavorful with straight cleric.