What to do against a significantly more powerful enemy?

[fishyfishyfishy]

I’m looking for a bit of advice. My DM has decided to use a monster that is many times more powerful than our party, a Teratomorph (MM2). We are level 6.

Party makeup:
Forest Gnome Druid
This is me, I’m probably the most experienced player. I try not to outshine the others by primarily using buffs and a summon here and there.

Gnome Bard
Dragonfire Inspiration Bard. He hardly uses his spells and mostly contributes with DFI. He also has a Riding Dog gained through the feat wild cohort or whatever it’s called.

Human Monk/Cleric
I believe his plan is to only have one actual level of Monk and to prestige into Sacred Fist. So far he’s been incredibly effective in combat. He's also a lot more experienced than the other guys and is pretty good at creating powerful characters.

Human Paladin of Freedom
This is his first character ever. He’s taking Bloodline Levels from Unearthed Arcana to represent draconic heritage. The character is probably the weakest of the bunch, but he has fun.

Elf Dungeoncrasher Fighter
Originally this guy was trying to be an archer and a sword and board fighter at the same time. We eventually convinced him to pick one and stick to it so he decided on sword and board. The DM is letting him bring in a new character that's a relative with the same race/class combo, since we’re at his hometown. I helped him with the new build and it's as good as I could possibly make a single classed sword and board fighter.

The DM has made it very clear to us that this thing is WAY beyond our ability to deal with in direct combat. But I imagine he expects us to do something. It is actually in our groups interest to do something about this creature considering it popped up near the village of the Elf and it’s destroying a large portion of the forest. If it matters, we’re playing in the Greyhawk setting and we are in the Dim Forest which is between Geoff, Gran March and the Valley of the Mage. There is a village of Elves and a tribe of Forest Giants nearby that are both being threatened by this thing and want to get rid of it. The Giants were wary at first but I think we have won over their trust.

Another thing is that the DM is going to mess with my spell casting. I’m not sure what he has planned, but he said that an event is going to occur that would directly affect my characters abilities. I told him that as long as he doesn’t completely nerf my character and he keeps a temporary thing we can fix that I’m fine with dealing with it. It could provide some great RP whatever it is.

So, any ideas/advice Playgrounders? We could really use it.

[Barsoom]

as good as I could possibly make a single classed sword and board fighter.
May God have mercy on your souls.

The DM has made it very clear to us that this thing is WAY beyond our ability to deal with in direct combat. But I imagine he expects us to do something.The McGuffin quest? Somewhere, deep in the forest, there's a forgotten item that will bring the monster's doom? Try to ask around. Have that bard put his Bardic Knowledge to good use.

[dupersudi]

Lots and lots of side quests until you can effectively fight it. It is mindless and follows food, so lead it into a trap that can kill it and quickly, it can fly so pits are out though.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Our Knowledge checks have gotten us nowhere so far. In character we don't actually know what the thing is even called. I've been calling it the Jello Bubble monster. We had an interesting combat encounter when some Fiendish Sahaugin riding flying sharks plane shifted nearby and decided we looked like lunch.

The Fighter isn't all that bad. It was worse before when his character was so unfocused. He's a decent role-player and he'll probably take a prestige class or multi-class into a ToB class eventually. He hasn't really decided.

[Slipperychicken]

For all its powers, it has several weaknesses.

It's dumb: Should the need arise, you should have little trouble fooling, distracting or evading this creature. It shouldn't be able to hide or effectively use cover. This also means you can lure it away from the town.

AC= 3: Anything can hit this creature. Get enough people thwacking it, and those HP will go down quickly. The 20% miss chance isn't important.

No DR: Any hit can damage this beast. Even a nonmagical weapon wielded by a peasant can hurt it.

No ranged attacks: This is critical. This means you can snipe it with impunity, as long as you're smart about it. In the open, this is a death sentence.

Not very fast: It has Fly 50, but at Poor maneuverability. A light horse (60ft) can outpace it, and if you force it to make turns, that makes it blow speed to turn.




My Plan: You're going to kite this sonofabitch like you're a Mongolian horse-archer fighting a melee-only boss monster in a video game.

Get mounted (a light horse will do, but a flier will let you pursue the beast, should it run away), have Longbows or other long-range weapons, and have many, many arrows available (200 each to be safe? you will need them all to wear its hit points down). Stay at least 300-500ft away from this monster (you'll take a tohit penalty for distance, but its AC is low enough that this doesn't matter), and shoot it. Never stop shooting it. When it approaches, back the hell off and maintain distance. If it tries to run, pursue as best you can. Remember that even in rounds when you fire, you can still take a Move action without penalty, take a double-move at -4 tohit, or Run at -8 tohit. Keeping your distance is much more important than hitting, so don't be afraid to take that -8 if you need to. It'll take a long time, but you will win eventually. Consider having extra horses in case your current ones get Exhausted.

This plan doesn't require high-level dudes, just a DC 5 Ride check to guide a mount with your knees and fire from atop it. This means you can equip any able-bodied person with a light horse and a ranged weapon, and they can contribute.

[Malvanis]

If the giants help you, you could lure it into a trap of some sorts and then have the giants pelt it with rocks until it's dead, with you following it up with longbows. You could also set up an avalanche trap from a high place. I think an item does 1d6 damage per 10 pounds of weight. So if you get like 20 100 pound boulders you could be dealing 200d6 damage.

[fishyfishyfishy]

That sounds like a solid plan. We just need to make sure everyone has enough speed to outpace it. I'm sure the elves have plenty of bows to equip everyone.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

Illusions. Mindless creatures auto-fail on illusions, and even critters with minds usually don't fair so well. Make a bunch of long-term illusions (Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, etc.) and summon a horde of things to distract it. Your party will use a few scrolls of greater invisibility, and sit back hitting it at range while the summons and illusions waste its efforts. You should be able to kill it this way.

Bard makes illusions (off of scrolls if need be) and DFIs the summon's natural weapons, the summons are made by you, the Monk/Cleric and Fighter wait until it is worn down and then gank it.

[THEChanger]

Shoot. CR 16 against a party of level 6s. You guys are in for a fun time.

A few more pointers.

-Do not allow it to close within more than 120 feet. Inside this range, you will be subject to it's Portalwake and Warp Reality effects. Both are horrible, horrible things, especially for your level. Portalwake will shunt your party to random planes, something you don't have a solution for at this level. Warp Reality puts a -4 on attack rolls and Dex checks, and has a chance for more nasty stuff-like Earthquake, Prismatic Spray, and several spells of the Fog line. No me gusta.

-Your oozly friend has a permanent 20% miss chance. True Seeing/True Strike does you no good against it according to the description. However, a Dimensional Anchor effect negates the miss chance for the duration. If you can grab yourself a scroll, you should be able to smack it with the Anchor from outside the 120 feet range-though the SR 32 will pose an issue.

-Oh yeah. SR 32. Stick to your bows. Ranged spells are unlikely to help.

[shadow_archmagi]

Don't forget that a weapon's max range is several times its increment- With an AC of 3, you can fire a longbow at it from 1000 feet away at a -10, and even a 10 dex 0 bab peasant hits on a 13+. (Except most peasants will lack martial weapon prof, but still)

With that in mind, the party could easily just hetz the darn thing to death by having multiple raiding groups on light horses to shoot it from very, very far away, and then retreat as soon as it closes to less than 500 feet.

[Than]

If you do go with mounted archer goodness you can't use a longbow on a horse. You'll want to get shortbows.

And don't feed it. They triple every time they eat 56 creatures.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually the most hilarious way would be to dig a big (really deep, pyramid of empty space style) pit, put a big boulder near the top and cover it with both an illusion and a mat. Put an illusion of someone on top of it, get it to fall in and cap the top with a rock.

Edit: Holy cow it has an AC of 3. Get a wand of fly and kite it with arrows and fireballs. A wand of Fireball would actually be a good investment here; it has the range and the thing has a pretty bad reflex save. It can fly too, but a little slower than a fly spell so just keep running and shooting until it dies.

[Kumori]

Illusions. Mindless creatures auto-fail on illusions, and even critters with minds usually don't fair so well. Make a bunch of long-term illusions (Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, etc.) and summon a horde of things to distract it. Your party will use a few scrolls of greater invisibility, and sit back hitting it at range while the summons and illusions waste its efforts. You should be able to kill it this way.

Bard makes illusions (off of scrolls if need be) and DFIs the summon's natural weapons, the summons are made by you, the Monk/Cleric and Fighter wait until it is worn down and then gank it.

Blindsense means Greater Invisibility is pointless and I can't find anything to say mindless creatures auto-fail against illusions. If anything, illusions are less effective as many are mind-affecting. They do fail intelligence checks though; were you maybe getting that mixed up?

[Slipperychicken]

Dragonfire Inspiration Bard.

If the DFI damage type isn't lightning or acid (the Teratomorph is immune to these), consider clustering a group of archers around the Gnome, even using delayed initiative to move with him, since the damage they deal to the monster will benefit from extra DFI dice. This will, however, surely draw its attention, so have plans to scatter the cluster if it gets too close.


You are also blessed by its poor senses. Oozes are blind; beyond their Blindsense range, they can perceive little. They cannot attempt Spot checks, and their Wisdom 1 and lack of skill ranks means that its Listen modifier is -5 before distance penalties. If you can make horses use Move Silently, escaping detection should be easy as pie. You may need to remind the DM of this, as it's easy to skip over.

[Tvtyrant]

Blindsense means Greater Invisibility is pointless and I can't find anything to say mindless creatures auto-fail against illusions. If anything, illusions are less effective as many are mind-affecting. They do fail intelligence checks though; were you maybe getting that mixed up?

Huh, I could have sworn mindless creatures auto-failed against illusions. Welp, looks like I'm useless again! In this case the Image line is not on the list of things they are immune to as they are Figments, so they still have to save against them.

I did not notice the Blindsense, although it still lives the invisible target with total concealment. Oh well, staying back is a good idea.

[TuggyNE]

Huh, I could have sworn mindless creatures auto-failed against illusions.

They don't auto-fail, but they do have to interact, which in many cases can be avoided by sufficient knowledge of their patterns.

[Slipperychicken]

They don't auto-fail, but they do have to interact, which in many cases can be avoided by sufficient knowledge of their patterns.

Oozes are blind. They cannot see illusions. They are also immune to mind-affecting. Auditory illusions can still function against it, but remember it's Listen modifier should be -5 from Wisdom=1 and no skill ranks.

Once it gets into Blindsense range, it wouldn't feel an illusory being, although it would still hear the auditory bit. Ghost Sound may actually be useful for a temporary distraction.

[Killer Angel]

For all its powers, it has several weaknesses.

A nice summary.
I would like to see the DM's face, if the group of 6th lev. char., will beat the CR16 monster that is way beyond their possibilities...

[Malroth]

they're immune from sight based illusions like silent image, Major image includes the smell and tactile components that blindsense users use instead of sight.

[Slipperychicken]

I would like to see the DM's face, if the group of 6th lev. char., will beat the CR16 monster that is way beyond their possibilities...

I mean, it is the D&D equivalent to a videogame hp-soak boss-monster with piss-poor AI with awful aggro mechanics. Besides, it only murders them if they get within 120ft or so. Outside that range, it's a blind floating sack of HP waiting to be transformed into a pincushion. Maybe I'm giving the DM way too much credit here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he thought these weaknesses through before giving the encounter.


Unfortunately, the CR difference is so enormous the PCs' wouldn't get experience for defeating it by RAW. Apparently, using real-world tactics qualifies as "something strange is happening".

[fishyfishyfishy]

If the DFI damage type isn't lightning or acid (the Teratomorph is immune to these), consider clustering a group of archers around the Gnome, even using delayed initiative to move with him, since the damage they deal to the monster will benefit from extra DFI dice. This will, however, surely draw its attention, so have plans to scatter the cluster if it gets too close.


You are also blessed by its poor senses. Oozes are blind; beyond their Blindsense range, they can perceive little. They cannot attempt Spot checks, and their Wisdom 1 and lack of skill ranks means that its Listen modifier is -5 before distance penalties. If you can make horses use Move Silently, escaping detection should be easy as pie. You may need to remind the DM of this, as it's easy to skip over.

Unfortunately (for this situation) the DFI is acid. It's a great choice for the long run but there's the occasional foe that is immune.

I will keep the horrible perceptive abilities in mind when we make our battle plan. So far we've figured out how far the "safe zone" is and we've not ventured any closer.

I want to thank everyone for the advice. I will update when we implement our plan. It might be a while though because the DM is going to be in Panama for another week (he's in the army).

[Deophaun]

A wand of Fireball would actually be a good investment here; it has the range and the thing has a pretty bad reflex save.
It has an SR of 32. It doesn't need the Reflex save.

Unfortunately (for this situation) the DFI is acid. It's a great choice for the long run but there's the occasional foe that is immune.
He can still use regular Inspire Courage. Not as great, but still effective when you have a lot of HP to whittle away.

But this is why I always recommend spending the extra feat and going for pyroclastic heritage. Fire or Sonic as needed.

[Crinias]

My Plan: You're going to kite this sonofabitch like you're a Mongolian horse-archer fighting a melee-only boss monster in a video game.
Very nicely put.

Still, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that some of its weaknesses are probably unknown to the party IC. If the party has seen it fight anything then, yes, they should more-or-less know it has low AC, movement rate, poor senses beyond 120 ft and maybe figure out that it's very dumb. Beyond that they should be unaware of its other abilities unless noted.

Really though, the DM was clever to put this thing in. Setting aside the fact that it's from the MM2 (and its creation wasn't well thought-out), clever tactics and teamwork, collaborating with the elves and giants should work well to put it down, but not brute force. It encourages creativity, I suppose? It's not it would actually be a challenge at higher levels, so it's perfect for low levels.

I mean, it's supposed to be CR 16, but come on, let's take a look at other examples of equal CR creatures, for comparison's sake:

Planetar: An angel that has an absolute host of protective magical abilities, spell-like abilities and decent melee skills that it should probably never use, since it can cast spells as a cleric of higher level than its CR. Self-explanatory (and probably should be much higher CR).
Cornugon: Spell-like abilities, passive benefits, many immunities, many physical attacks, other stuff.
Some dragons, ranging from Adult to old. Absolute physical threats, high AC, high SR, breath weapon, lots of powerful natural attacks, can cast spells as a sorcerer.

Of all these, all of them are intelligent, very mobile, have many different abilities and could serve as the BBEG of an entire campaign, if they wanted to. This thing, though? It doesn't deserve to be in the same category. Just because it has multiple dangerous offensive abilities doesn't make it strong. As has been said, it's just a blind floating sack of HP that is over-CR'd.

Such is the nature of MM2 monsters, huh?

[fishyfishyfishy]

Still, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that some of its weaknesses are probably unknown to the party IC. If the party has seen it fight anything then, yes, they should more-or-less know it has low AC, movement rate, poor senses beyond 120 ft and maybe figure out that it's very dumb. Beyond that they should be unaware of its other abilities unless noted.


You're absolutely right. Most of it's abilities and weaknesses are unknown to us and that is what has stopped us from engaging with it directly. We've seen random creatures be plane shifted in nearby only to be eaten/mutated/plane shifted away a few seconds later and we know we're safe around 150ft away.

[Slipperychicken]

Such is the nature of MM2 monsters, huh?

The terrain is what breaks the Teratomorph; the ability to engage it from long range and keep it at a distance with impunity. If this thing was sitting in a typical dungeon, a 6th level party would be slaughtered.

I agree. I get the feeling this was a deliberate choice by the DM to make the players think outside the box, with an encounter which requires more brain than brawn.

[Seffbasilisk]

*ahem*

YOU'RE A DRUID.

Summon nature's ally. Whatever will be the hardest for it to hit. Have it dance around, and generally keep its' attention. Concentrated fire from a distance. Heck, with it's AC so low you can easily be a good 500ft away and still stand a good chance of hitting it. Illusions can sub in for actual summons, or at least make the summon harder to hit. Wear it down.


To answer the topic question: Fight dirty.


If you care less about the XP and more about getting it dead, then the giants come in handy. They can throw rocks. Tie it up with summons that infuriate and are hard to hit (or things like swarms, it only has one attack per round), and just bludgeon it to death from a distance. Find out what the thing's called, or make up a properly epic name for it, and the suffix -slayer and then you guys have new titles.