Old Blood Discussion: What does it mean to be a Race?

[Xuldarinar]

To those of you unaware, Old Blood is a feat from the Third-party Supliment book; Bastards and Bloodlines. The exact wording of the feat is as follows..


Benefit: Choose one race other than your own. For purposes of prestige classes, spells, feat prerequisites, magic items, and so on, you count as a member of that race.
Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.


Now, the question that brought this up. What defines a race in this case? Illithid could count (giving access to Illithid Savant, for those of you looking for an excuse to have your character eat brains, without face tentacles). But, for instance, could warforge count? Do drow technically count as a race, or being a sub-race make them an ineligible choice? Could someone take the feat, pick any given demon or devil, and qualify for things requiring one to be an evil outsider?

[Malvanis]

My two cents: brain eating is a seperate prerequisite than illithid and a call drow a race of their own because of their unique SLAs and culture. Evil outsiders have races as well, so I don't see why not. That's just my opinion.

[Xuldarinar]

Good points, though I have to say that, no where does it say you need an ability to eat the brains, only that you consume one.

What do you say about warforged? Them taking this feat, you could argue one was modeled after a member a race. But could someone take old blood to qualify for things that require one to be warforged?

[The Viscount]

Race is generally used to refer to any playable species with a lowish LA or no LA, or at least that's what I think of when I think of race. There is unfortunately no real definition for race.

As for counting as warforged: Legally? Sure! Logically? No. But this is D&D. Someone is quoted as saying that RAW and common sense aren't on speaking terms.

[Elderand]

Oh god....an ilithid savant that exist whitout the face tentacles

http://data.whicdn.com/images/8634098/Evil-gabriel-sylar-gray-5822583-500-400_large.jpg

[BowStreetRunner]

Interesting. I can't actually find a rules reference at the moment, but I always thought 'race' was a subgroup under 'subtype' and 'type'. So a Gray Elf would be Type: humanoid, Subtype: elf, Race: Gray Elf. However, I am not actually finding any rules to support this so maybe it was just an assumption on my part.

[Xuldarinar]

Race is generally used to refer to any playable species with a lowish LA or no LA, or at least that's what I think of when I think of race. There is unfortunately no real definition for race.

As for counting as warforged: Legally? Sure! Logically? No. But this is D&D. Someone is quoted as saying that RAW and common sense aren't on speaking terms.

Your probably right. As for counting, I could maybe come up with a reason on a case by case basis. Maybe a warforged was turned mortal and was an ancestor of a character's? Maybe a deity of the forge has blessed a character with a trait that allows them to interact with things normally designed purely for warforged? Magic?


Oh god....an ilithid savant that exist whitout the face tentacles

http://data.whicdn.com/images/8634098/Evil-gabriel-sylar-gray-5822583-500-400_large.jpg

That character actually came to mind when I first saw the Illithid Savant class.

Sylar: Human Artificer 7/Ilithid Savant 5+



Interesting. I can't actually find a rules reference at the moment, but I always thought 'race' was a subgroup under 'subtype' and 'type'. So a Gray Elf would be Type: humanoid, Subtype: elf, Race: Gray Elf. However, I am not actually finding any rules to support this so maybe it was just an assumption on my part.

Maybe there is no concrete rule on it, as the situation where what defines a race is rarely addressed. Races are presented at times as prerequisites, but a definition of what a race is has never really been needed.

[Xuldarinar]

Well, expanding on the notion of Old blood allowing one to be part warforged…


Lets say a human at first level uses their bonus feat to take Old Blood (Warforged), could they use their other feat to take adamantine body?

Could a character with Old Blood (Warforged) use Warforged Components?



And, expanding upon another previous point.

A character take Old Blood (Tiefling). They can qualify for anything that requires they be a tiefling, but can they qualify for anything that requires they be an outsider? Could they qualify for something that requires Darkness as a spell-like ability?

[Gildedragon]

Components and warforged feats: yes; though the body feats keep you from wearing armor ever again.
Qualify as a tiefling: yes
Qualify as an outsider: nope
Ditto for the darkness SLA, they don't have it.

[Xuldarinar]

Components and warforged feats: yes; though the body feats keep you from wearing armor ever again.
Qualify as a tiefling: yes
Qualify as an outsider: nope
Ditto for the darkness SLA, they don't have it.


Thats a reasonable interpretation. Though, now I'm thinking of characters… A Spellcarved Soldier (Races of Eberron) that isn't warforged, would they be carving the runes into their flesh?

On a separate note, warforged fleshwarpers could make interesting characters. So could woeforged, but they are only ever mentioned.

[Malvanis]

What I have to say about the warforged is that even though the feat says you can chose any race "race" the feat description implies that you gain this ability because some of distant ancestors were of that race. Warforged cannot breed, and thus I as a dungeon master would outlaw it and tell the player to pick another race that has the capacity to breed.

[Flickerdart]

What I have to say about the warforged is that even though the feat says you can chose any race "race" the feat description implies that you gain this ability because some of distant ancestors were of that race. Warforged cannot breed, and thus I as a dungeon master would outlaw it and tell the player to pick another race that has the capacity to breed.
Warforged can breed. It just takes some effort.

It is a well-documented fact that many of the half-X templates are created when one creature magically adopts another form that can breed with the other creature (otherwise, the logistics of half-dragon mice - a legal combination, by the rules - would be impossible). Therefore, all we need to do is have a warforged wizard polymorph into a human, and do the horizontal tango with a lucky lady. Boom, you have warforged in your bloodline.

[Malvanis]

OK, OK. BUT that seems a lot of effort for one warforge to breed. Plus, the Ebberon books say that warforged were only created several years prior to the events of the campaign setting to fight in the Last War. That means warforged are only like 5 years old. That isn't enough time for several human generations to go by. So the children of polymorphed warforged would become half-warforged.

[RogueDM]

Old Blood Warforged just feels like... a cyborg to me. Or maybe some sort of biomechanical life form. Very HR Geiger -esque.

Anyhow, I've heard Race in a fantasy setting differentiated with the guideline of sentience. Any species that is sentient can be considered a race, and yes I would be specific about subtype. However, I would say if you took Old Blood: Drow Elf you would qualify for things that required you to be specifically Drow, and generally Elf. Basically gaining both Type and Sub-type.

[Malvanis]

However, I would say if you took Old Blood: Drow Elf you would qualify for things that required you to be specifically Drow, and generally Elf. Basically gaining both Type and Sub-type.

This is an interesting take on things. I'm not really sure about this. I thought of something else as well: If a warforged were to polymorph into human form then they would gain human reproductive systems and in effect be completely human. Thus if they were to mate in this form they would only produce human babies.

[Xuldarinar]

To add more to the point of warforged being an eligible ancestor, I'm going to have to toss the fiend folio in here. Page 137 to be exact:

"Mechanatrixes are planetouched who can trace their ancestry to one of the bizarre clockwork beings that reside on the plane of Mechanus.
Mechanatrixes are mostly human in appearance, but they have one or more mechanical or inorganic features.-"

A human, in a world of magic no less, can find a way to breed with a machine but only if its from mechanus?


As for the time they have been around.. I'm just going to point to magic. We have spells that manipulate time..

[Malvanis]

I'm just saying that if I was the Dungeon Master and one of my players took Old Blood: Warforged. I would say no.

[JaronK]

Race, Creature, and Monster are synonyms. Race implies it's a player doing it, monster implies it's an enemy, and creature has no implication. But they're the same.

For example, Kobolds are a Monster in MM1, but a Race in Races of the Dragon. Hold Monster works on any creature. And so on.

So... pick a demon race, then have fun with Extract Gift!

JaronK

[Xuldarinar]

Race, Creature, and Monster are synonyms. Race implies it's a player doing it, monster implies it's an enemy, and creature has no implication. But they're the same.

For example, Kobolds are a Monster in MM1, but a Race in Races of the Dragon. Hold Monster works on any creature. And so on.

So... pick a demon race, then have fun with Extract Gift!

JaronK


Huh, I never thought of that option. Could a spell caster with Old Blood correlating with any given demon, use this spell to enhance themselves or could they only enhance members of their party? Essentially, can they be the caster, the demon, and the recipient? Furthermore, can the enhancements be cumulative?

[Xervous]

Warforged can breed. It just takes some effort.

What, do you need a +1 adamantine cherry popper to overcome DR or something?

[Xuldarinar]

What, do you need a +1 adamantine cherry popper to overcome DR or something?


Polymorph.

Incarnate Construct Warforged?

Magic in general. Im sure theres a spell for that, somewhere.

However it is that beings from Mechanus breed with humans.