Soul Food

[Rubik]

Does anyone have official means of using or destroying souls? I'd much prefer non-evil means if possible. This is for an extremely corrupt soul, which requires disposal as quickly as possible.

The only thing I can come up with is to have a druid cast Reincarnate on it (so it loses all the racial abilities it had in life), then the Flesh to Stone, Rock to Mud, Purify Food and Drink combo. Though if there's some (non Evil) way to consume it for XP or something, I'd like that too.

[Elderand]

That wouldn't work actually, you'd just be containing the soul that way, not destroy it. Most way I know of destroying souls are evil by nature (feeding it to a demilich). Only non evil way I know is setting specific, pop it into the wall of the faithless in faerun.

[olentu]

There are several methods in the book of vile darkness. I recall that the easiest is to just use it as a optional material component. Do be aware that destroying a soul is very much an evil act if that matters.

Edit: Make that just harming souls much less destroying them.

[Rubik]

There are several methods in the book of vile darkness. I recall that the easiest is to just use it as a optional material component. Do be aware that destroying a soul is very much an evil act if that matters.Yeah, it is, stupid as it is. Things that could destroy entire planes of existence are difficult to permanently destroy, and destroying the soul would be a good way to do it. But it's just one Evil act, and doing so doesn't matter to anyone but a paladin or an exalted character.

So I guess what I'm saying there is: meh.

But still, I'd prefer to avoid Eviling it up, so other ways to get rid of it would be nice.

[Fable Wright]

Destroying souls is strictly an Evil act in D&D. I know Book of Vile Darkness has rules on it, but the main use for them, IIRC, was using them as components in making magic items, giving you a 10 exp discount per soul used.

A good way of disposing of the soul is to travel to the Abyss and use it to buy something. It's almost definitely a Larva, so it's worth a decent amount. You could just give it to a moneychanger and be rid of it, as no one really bothers to resurrect currency, nor, IIRC, can they as long as a demon owns it.

EDIT: Partially ninja'd.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's not Destroying a Soul, but I recall the Apostle of Peace had a spell that purified souls, so even the darkest, blackest soul could be turned Exalted Good as you trapped it in a diamond for something like one year.

Also one of the Exalted PrCs Emissary of Brachiel or something I think, has an ability that can move a humanoid's alignment. Then can cast Atonement on them to make the move permanent (edit: Or if they fail a saving throw each day for seven days). you do this step by alignment step, but you could turn even a Chaotic Evil Priest of the Doom God into a Lawful Goody Two-Shoes.

It's not Soul Crushing... but it's options that deal with Evil Souls that aren't evil, and won't leave lingering evil around.

[Rubik]

A good way of disposing of the soul is to travel to the Abyss and use it to buy something. It's almost definitely a Larva, so it's worth a decent amount. You could just give it to a moneychanger and be rid of it, as no one really bothers to resurrect currency, nor, IIRC, can they as long as a demon owns it.Problem is, it's a seriously powerful soul, trapped in an item. Giving it to a demon would be.........baaaad.

[Erik Vale]

Isn't there a river on some plane [in one of the books to do with incarnum] that destroys any object put into it?
Put the sould into a object [say soul gem] and then into the river.

Otherwise. Perhaps a healthy dose of Miracle, as the upper limits of that is up to the DM's discretion, and one might find a neutral deity willing to destroy it.

[Fable Wright]

Problem is, it's a seriously powerful soul, trapped in an item. Giving it to a demon would be.........baaaad.
It's really unlikely that the demon would recognize it as anything special, still. Or you could just feed it to a demon, which destroys the soul, and then destroy the demon just to be on the safe side.

[Rubik]

It's really unlikely that the demon would recognize it as anything special, still. Or you could just feed it to a demon, which destroys the soul, and then destroy the demon just to be on the safe side.But DMs are tricky. Feed an imp a world-destroyingly powerful corrupt soul and it'll turn into Cthulu on you. Just you wait.

[olentu]

Yeah, it is, stupid as it is. Things that could destroy entire planes of existence are difficult to permanently destroy, and destroying the soul would be a good way to do it. But it's just one Evil act, and doing so doesn't matter to anyone but a paladin or an exalted character.

So I guess what I'm saying there is: meh.

But still, I'd prefer to avoid Eviling it up, so other ways to get rid of it would be nice.

Well you could create an all powerful super being (using something like manipulate form or epic magic) and have it guard the soul. That would get around annoying stuff like the life and death salient divine ability.

[ArqArturo]

Destroying souls is strictly an Evil act in D&D. I know Book of Vile Darkness has rules on it, but the main use for them, IIRC, was using them as components in making magic items, giving you a 10 exp discount per soul used.

A good way of disposing of the soul is to travel to the Abyss and use it to buy something. It's almost definitely a Larva, so it's worth a decent amount. You could just give it to a moneychanger and be rid of it, as no one really bothers to resurrect currency, nor, IIRC, can they as long as a demon owns it.

EDIT: Partially ninja'd.

And why the Abyss? You could just go to Sigil and sell it there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Isn't there a river on some plane [in one of the books to do with incarnum] that destroys any object put into it?
Put the sould into a object [say soul gem] and then into the river.

Otherwise. Perhaps a healthy dose of Miracle, as the upper limits of that is up to the DM's discretion, and one might find a neutral deity willing to destroy it.

There is precedent for gods removing souls from reality. Several of the vestiges in ToM's binding section came to be as a result of just that.

Also in ToM is the spell unname. It's a 9th level sorc/wiz spell with a truename component, but it, too, removes a soul from reality almost completely. Only a 2 hour ritual that culminates in the casting of the ritual of renaming spell (which has both an XP and a truenaming component) followed by a true ressurection spell can restore the creature to life. Flubbing the ritual's truename component expends both the slot and the XP to no effect.

[Crasical]

Give it to a Good aligned diety? They're probably better equipped to deal with it than you are, either destroying or redeeming it.

[Emperor Tippy]

If the Soul is in an item, Unname an ECL 1 Commoner who is holding the item. It is irrevocably gone.

[druid91]

Get an unscrupulous artificer to make something out of it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the Soul is in an item, Unname an ECL 1 Commoner who is holding the item. It is irrevocably gone.

Pretty sure erasing a random dirt-farmer in the process of getting rid of this evil entity would fall under the heading of "evil."

Calling up a dretch or a lemure to do the same would probably be fine though. Expunge 2 evil souls from reality for the price of one.

[Rubik]

What kinds of monsters eat souls (other than barghests; that one won't work), and what kind of ability (Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, or Na) is it? I might have a few answers depending on the whats and the hows.

I don't want to destroy the item it's in, though if I could expunge the soul into another, much cheaper item to destroy, that would be fine.

[edit] Also, not a spellcaster, and the only spellcasting I have access to is through hiring one for the purpose.

[Alleran]

Pretty sure erasing a random dirt-farmer in the process of getting rid of this evil entity would fall under the heading of "evil."

Calling up a dretch or a lemure to do the same would probably be fine though. Expunge 2 evil souls from reality for the price of one.
Of course, the BoVD states that even destroying an evil soul is itself an evil act of the most abhorrent and blackest sort. But, you know, BoVD.

[Rubik]

Of course, the BoVD states that even destroying an evil soul is itself an evil act of the most abhorrent and blackest sort. But, you know, BoVD.That would mean that destroying ghosts and shadows and spectres and wraiths would be capital-E Evil, since they're undead souls without bodies.

[Erik Vale]

So would killing evil outside, for their souls are their bodies, however killing them is stated (somewhere) to be a good act.

*outsiders, stupid iPad.

[Crasical]

So would killing evil outside, for their souls are their bodies, however killing them is stated (somewhere) to be a good act.

*outsiders, stupid iPad.

I MUST KILL THE ENTIRE OUTSIDE.

[Rubik]

How about we just agree that the alignment of the act of destroying souls is completely based on the situation and intent? Otherwise, it's more rules stupidity.

[CRtwenty]

How about we just agree that the alignment of the act of destroying souls is completely based on the situation and intent? Otherwise, it's more rules stupidity.

Not really. You're intentionally destroying part of the underlying fabric of the universe. Seems pretty evil to me.

[Xefas]

If you can hire someone to Plane Shift you, or similar, just take the item to Mount Celestia, tell them the situation, and have them deal with it. Soul gone, no chance of you doing anything evil. Hell, they might even reward you for the good deed.

[Rubik]

Not really. You're intentionally destroying part of the underlying fabric of the universe. Seems pretty evil to me.So killing fiends, an undisputably "good" act, is evil? How about the aforementioned wraiths, spectres, shadows, and ghosts?

[angry_bear]

Just look at it as a less evil act than allowing it to continue existing. If you're not a paladin, that should be fine...

Or find a way to send it to Ravenloft. It isn't destroyed, but it's definitely removed from play. Granted, it'd probably be transformed into some sort of monstrosity that destroys all that it touches there; but the way Ravenloft is structured, they'll never be able to expand beyond their own little empire in the mists, while also being subjected to their own personal hell.

Dumping it in the Abyss or the Nine Hells just means that they can cut a deal with a powerful fiend to come back more powerful than before.

Quick question about reincarnate, if they die in their new form and then get resurrected, they come back as their new form right? Like if the villain is turned into a dog, they'll come back as a dog if someone casts True Resurrection right?

[CRtwenty]

So killing fiends, an undisputably "good" act, is evil? How about the aforementioned wraiths, spectres, shadows, and ghosts?

You don't "destroy" those when you kill them, so much as "release" them. Their essence gets absorbed into their home plane in the case of fiends, or returns to the Negative Energy Plane while their soul goes to its respective afterlife in the case of the Undead.

Destroying a soul removes that energy from the equation, no absorbing into a Plane via the afterlife means a net loss in energy for the multiverse.

[TuggyNE]

I MUST KILL THE ENTIRE OUTSIDE.

A new 'scape book: "It's Dead Outside".

[GreenSerpent]

Find a way to transfer the soul into a level 1 commoner and get a nearby spellcaster to cast Mindrape (ordering them to fail the next two saves), Necrotic Cyst and Necrotic Termination in that order. Costs 10,000 XP but ensures they cannot return by any means - the soul is devoured along with the body.

Barghest's Feast works too, but has a 50% chance of allowing them to be resurrected.

[Kazyan]

What kinds of monsters eat souls (other than barghests; that one won't work), and what kind of ability (Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, or Na) is it? I might have a few answers depending on the whats and the hows.

I don't want to destroy the item it's in, though if I could expunge the soul into another, much cheaper item to destroy, that would be fine.

[edit] Also, not a spellcaster, and the only spellcasting I have access to is through hiring one for the purpose.

There's the imaginatively named Soul Eater from MoI. Check it out and see if it does as advertised.

[hamishspence]

Find a way to transfer the soul into a level 1 commoner and get a nearby spellcaster to cast Mindrape (ordering them to fail the next two saves), Necrotic Cyst and Necrotic Termination in that order. Costs 10,000 XP but ensures they cannot return by any means - the soul is devoured along with the body.

The OP asked for a nonevil way.

[Samalpetey]

If the Soul is in an item, Unname an ECL 1 Commoner who is holding the item. It is irrevocably gone.

As well as being evil, wouldn't that free the soul? If destroying a soul was as simple as destroying an item containing it, this thread wouldn't exist

EDIT: But now I read it, unname itself works just fine. You just need to raise and restrain the bad guy first

DOUBLE EDIT: Didn't see the part about spellcasting, sorry

[Rubik]

There's the imaginatively named Soul Eater from MoI. Check it out and see if it does as advertised.It does, but it requires that the creature die in its presence.

There's always the Reincarnate option with it, I suppose. Especially viable since these things can be summoned.

[Kalirren]

First, Trap the Soul.

Then find yourself a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Have a friend ready an action to slap a Helm of Opposite Alignment on the wizard's head right after he Magic Jars into the soul gem.

Use a Miracle to make sure everything goes a-OK.

What could possibly go wrong? :smallcool:

[Deox]

One could hire a spellcaster to cast Call Nightmare from BoVD. One of the material components is a soul, which gets used up/destroyed upon cast.

[The Viscount]

So killing fiends, an undisputably "good" act, is evil? How about the aforementioned wraiths, spectres, shadows, and ghosts?

Undead actually have no souls, which is why people say it's not evil to destroy them.

As for using the soul, if you think the soul might know some useful things, stick it in a husk globe from LM and make it answer your questions.

[GreenSerpent]

The OP asked for a nonevil way.

Use Programmed Amnesia then, and simply Consecrate the Necrotic spells.

Or transfer them into a body and hire an Emissary of Barachiel to convert them to good.

[Rubik]

I think I know how to do this now. But don't let that stop the discussion!

[hamishspence]

Undead actually have no souls, which is why people say it's not evil to destroy them.

Depends heavily on the type of undead- some have none- some have them but a "malign spirit" controls the body, and some have a soul that's fully in control of the body- like liches.

[Wings of Peace]

Yeah, it is, stupid as it is. Things that could destroy entire planes of existence are difficult to permanently destroy, and destroying the soul would be a good way to do it. But it's just one Evil act, and doing so doesn't matter to anyone but a paladin or an exalted character.

So I guess what I'm saying there is: meh.

But still, I'd prefer to avoid Eviling it up, so other ways to get rid of it would be nice.

In total fairness unless you're destroying the soul of fantasy hitler I don't think you're going to have an easy time destroying a soul in a non-evil way. The reason destroying souls is often looked upon as an ultimate act of evil is because in many of the campaigns almost every is permanent in some way. Matter remains after the castle explodes, wounds from torture heal (and even vile damage can with great effort be reversed), death segues into the after life, that sort of jazz.

However, when you destroy a soul you're breaking that cycle of continuation in an almost completely irreversible way, that's why I always figured destroying a soul is considered so evil in a lot of the lore even if the way you destroy the soul is relatively tame.

[Starbuck_II]

Go to the Bastion of Souls, destroy the Bastion of Souls, and weep as there are now no more souls.

[The Viscount]

Depends heavily on the type of undead- some have none- some have them but a "malign spirit" controls the body, and some have a soul that's fully in control of the body- like liches.

Liches are a perfect example of a soul not controlling a body, unless it's somehow going to control the lich while trapped in a phylactery. I don't think it's well been explained what drives most intelligent undead, I've always thought of it as a mind without a soul. I seem to recall one of the books saying "only living creatures have (or are) souls," but I cannot find where.

Speaking of undead, it's an ok stopgap until you think of a good way to dispose of the soul. If the body has been made into an undead, you cannot resurrect the creature until the undead has been destroyed, so if you have the body you can make it into an undead then keep it safe somewhere.

[Rubik]

In total fairness unless you're destroying the soul of fantasy hitler I don't think you're going to have an easy time destroying a soul in a non-evil way. The reason destroying souls is often looked upon as an ultimate act of evil is because in many of the campaigns almost every is permanent in some way. Matter remains after the castle explodes, wounds from torture heal (and even vile damage can with great effort be reversed), death segues into the after life, that sort of jazz.

However, when you destroy a soul you're breaking that cycle of continuation in an almost completely irreversible way, that's why I always figured destroying a soul is considered so evil in a lot of the lore even if the way you destroy the soul is relatively tame.Well, there's a decent chance that the creature that I'd be destroying could corrupt the wellspring of life itself if its soul were allowed to return to wherever souls come from; that, and there's no other way to keep it from coming back and destroying everything after, if the various cults that worship it want to Wish it back, so I feel justified in destroying it for the good of basically everything in existence.

[123456789blaaa]

Liches are a perfect example of a soul not controlling a body, unless it's somehow going to control the lich while trapped in a phylactery. I don't think it's well been explained what drives most intelligent undead, I've always thought of it as a mind without a soul. I seem to recall one of the books saying "only living creatures have (or are) souls," but I cannot find where.

Speaking of undead, it's an ok stopgap until you think of a good way to dispose of the soul. If the body has been made into an undead, you cannot resurrect the creature until the undead has been destroyed, so if you have the body you can make it into an undead then keep it safe somewhere.

Magic my friend, magic.

Do you have a source for your claim that undead don't have souls? I don't see it in any of the undead monster entries (or anywhere else). The closest thing I should find is the "atrocity calls to unlife" theory in Libris Mortis and it is presented as just that:a theory. RAW stuff like Trap the Soul should work on the undead. Thus RAW they should have souls shouldn't they?

[The Viscount]

I unfortunately cannot remember where I saw it, but a conclusion could be drawn based on raise dead. Raise dead doesn't work on 4 types of creatures: elementals, outsiders, constructs, and undead. Elementals and outsiders cannot be raised because their body and soul are one, and as such require true resurrection. Constructs (Living Constructs excluded) do not have souls, as there specific recipes for animating them, and they do not list a soul as a requirement. The closest we come is those goelms animated by an elemental.

Undead cannot be raised or even resurrected because they have no souls to be called back into their bodies. How revive undead works is unexplained.

I know this sort of argument may sound circular, but I'm trying to provide reasons undead are soulless besides the text that is escaping me.

[TuggyNE]

Liches are a perfect example of a soul not controlling a body, unless it's somehow going to control the lich while trapped in a phylactery. I don't think it's well been explained what drives most intelligent undead, I've always thought of it as a mind without a soul. I seem to recall one of the books saying "only living creatures have (or are) souls," but I cannot find where.

I think you're thinking of something a little different.
(Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)

[Bronk]

I think the easiest and best bet for a non evil way to do this would be to track down a sphere of annihilation and toss the gem into it, to be utterly destroyed. Maybe throw around a few anti scrying spells to dissuade any deities from directly intervening, just to be on the safe side.

[The Viscount]

I think you're thinking of something a little different.

That was indeed the text I was looking for. Thanks, tuggyne!

Sorry about being wrong there, Count.

[123456789blaaa]

That was indeed the text I was looking for. Thanks, tuggyne!

Sorry about being wrong there, Count.

There's nothing to apologize for. We're all wrong sometimes :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Liches are a perfect example of a soul not controlling a body, unless it's somehow going to control the lich while trapped in a phylactery.

The soul only enters the phylactery after the body's been destroyed- it isn't stored there.

[The Viscount]

Hm. My mistake again. Text says that a phylactery merely holds a lich's "life force," whatever that means. Isn't that interesting? I had always thought it housed their souls, like with Koschei the Immortal.

[123456789blaaa]

Hm. My mistake again. Text says that a phylactery merely holds a lich's "life force," whatever that means. Isn't that interesting? I had always thought it housed their souls, like with Koschei the Immortal.

Trap the Soul talks about "life force" as well. I don't know why they didn't just say soul :smallconfused:.