archangels and archdevils

[blelliot]

There is a template for demon lord in dragon 359, I was wondering if ther is template for celestial paragon, or template for archdevil? Any feedback is appreciated!

[CRtwenty]

Doubtful. Each of the Archdevils and the Celestial Hebdomad are unique beings with their own personal stats already published. They're not like Demon Princes who literally have hundreds of creatures that have never gotten statted.

[karkus]

The last part of CRtwenty's post may have been the biggest understatement ever (no offense); there are, theoretically, an infinite number of Demon Princes that rule their own sections of the Abyss, so it's only natural that they have a template for it. Comparatively, there are only 9 Archdevils in total (well, maybe 10. Or 11. Or 12. The point is that there are only 9 rulers at a single time in Hell), and a certain number of Arch Angels.

To be honest, I don't know anything about "Ruling Angels" or whatever, mostly because when high-level characters need to entertain themselves, they normally go for Evil monsters over Good monsters, so I haven't found anything on Ultra-powerful Angels yet. However, 20th-level Half-Celestials or Advanced Solars could more-than-easily serve as your Angelic Prime Ministers (I didn't want it to sound like absolutism, so I went with this title instead :smalltongue:)

EDIT: On second thought... after reading "Celestial Paragon" one more time, I remembered that in the BoED it said something about Celestial Paragons! Even then, though, there are only a small number of them... :smallannoyed:

[Alleran]

To be honest, I don't know anything about "Ruling Angels" or whatever, mostly because when high-level characters need to entertain themselves, they normally go for Evil monsters over Good monsters, so I haven't found anything on Ultra-powerful Angels yet.
It's because succubi are demons... wait, that's what you were talking about when you meant entertainment, right?


However, 20th-level Half-Celestials or Advanced Solars could more-than-easily serve as your Angelic Prime Ministers (I didn't want it to sound like absolutism, so I went with this title instead :smalltongue:)

EDIT: On second thought... after reading "Celestial Paragon" one more time, I remembered that in the BoED it said something about Celestial Paragons! Even then, though, there are only a small number of them... :smallannoyed:
There are seven members of the Celestial Hebdomad, one for each level of Celestia. The highest of them is Zaphkiel, and I think he's CR 32 or so. Lowest is CR 25-ish?

[hamishspence]

There are seven members of the Celestial Hebdomad, one for each level of Celestia. The highest of them is Zaphkiel, and I think he's CR 32 or so. Lowest is CR 25-ish?

They are:
Barachiel, The Messenger: CR 22
Domiel, The Mercy-Bringer: CR 24
Erathaol, The Seer: CR 25
Pistis Sophia, The Ascetic: CR 26
Raziel, The Crusader: CR 28
Seatiel, The Defender: CR 29
Zaphkiel, The Watcher: CR 32

[TuggyNE]

They are:
Barachiel, The Messenger: CR 22
Domiel, The Mercy-Bringer: CR 24
Erathaol, The Seer: CR 25
Pistis Sophia, The Ascetic: CR 26
Raziel, The Crusader: CR 28
Seatiel, The Defender: CR 29
Zaphkiel, The Watcher: CR 32

Is it just me or are those CRs rather substantially too low for their role?

*cue link to Gates of Heaven project*

[Alleran]

Is it just me or are those CRs rather substantially too low for their role?

*cue link to Gates of Heaven project*
The most powerful statted demon lord is Demogorgon at CR 30 (in his BoVD statblock, taking BoVD as the opposite to the BoED; in FC1 he's CR 28 and in Dragon he's CR 33, the most powerful demon lord). Most of them range from 22-29. The most powerful statted archdevil is Asmodeus at CR 32 (BoVD again; FC2 changed it so the statted-out archdevils are only aspects, while the same text was accidentally cut from FC1 by editors, IIRC), with most in about the same range as the demon lords.

So they seem to be roughly approximate in terms of matching up with the demon lords and archdevils.

[ericp65]

Strangely (?), Demogorgon never struck me as the most powerful demon lord. Certainly not the toughest opponent in the Abyss.

[Malvanis]

The stats for the archdevils and demon lords are listed in the Book of Vile Darkness, however, it provides no rules for creating your own.

[Urpriest]

That was the last ever Dragon magazine, so no, they never published anything analogous for the other categories of being.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Is it just me or are those CRs rather substantially too low for their role?

*cue link to Gates of Heaven project*

If you assume that everything powerful in D&D needs to be level eleventybillion, sure.

If you assume that PCs fit into the normal 20-level range, a level 20 character is world-shakingly powerful, and something with a CR of 25 is supposed to be a really tough bossfight for four such characters, no.

The only two books that do deal with level eleventybillion creatures are the Epic Level Handbook and the god book which I'm blanking on the name of, both of which I feel fairly confident in stating are objectively terribly written (from a mechanical standpoint).

Like, I get the TO attraction of statting out the Mortiverse, but I don't get the automatic assumption that Asmodeus needs to be CR 1000 or whatever to properly fulfill his role in the story. I can use a CR 30 Asmodeus in a fairly normal game, but unless my players enjoy playing the TO rocket tag game, CR 1000 Asmodeus is completely useless for a vast majority of games.


EDIT: On second thought... after reading "Celestial Paragon" one more time, I remembered that in the BoED it said something about Celestial Paragons! Even then, though, there are only a small number of them...

Besides the Hebdomad, there's also Talisid and the Five Companions (NG), the guardinal's leaders/most popular rock band, and the Eladrin Queen (CG) whose name I'm blanking on.

[blelliot]

Besides the Hebdomad, there's also Talisid and the Five Companions (NG), the guardinal's leaders/most popular rock band, and the Eladrin Queen (CG) whose name I'm blanking on.

Morwel, queen of stars, and her two consorts, Gwynwynharf, the whirling fury and the dude whose name escapes. Me at the moment

[CRtwenty]

Morwel, queen of stars, and her two consorts, Gwynwynharf, the whirling fury and the dude whose name escapes. Me at the moment

Faerinaal, the Queen's Consort

[TuggyNE]

If you assume that everything powerful in D&D needs to be level eleventybillion, sure.

I don't, and am on record several times as saying that few or no literary characters fit a level 20+ statblock, that real-world people seldom get to the equivalent of level 6, and that beyond level 40 or so CR becomes essentially meaningless. But capping at CR 32 seems just a bit weak (and the lowest one being 1 CR lower than a Solar is even lamer).


The only two books that do deal with level eleventybillion creatures are the Epic Level Handbook and the god book which I'm blanking on the name of, both of which I feel fairly confident in stating are objectively terribly written (from a mechanical standpoint).

The Immortals Handbook. And yes, they are. CR 57 Hecatoncheires, for example, can be defeated by a level 20 PO PsyWar build. CRs beyond 40? Basically meaningless.

[Steward]

Isn't CR one of those broken mechanics, where it seems as if there's no rhyme or reason behind them sometimes? I remember reading a thread here about a monster that could use Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Implosion at will and it was like, CR 12. So I wouldn't criticize Zaphkiel and Asmodeus just because their CRs are oddly low for entities that are second only to gods.

Maybe they have some amazing power that was improperly calculated, or alternately maybe other monsters that are near them in CR have their CRs cranked up way too high.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I don't, and am on record several times as saying that few or no literary characters fit a level 20+ statblock, that real-world people seldom get to the equivalent of level 6, and that beyond level 40 or so CR becomes essentially meaningless. But capping at CR 32 seems just a bit weak (and the lowest one being 1 CR lower than a Solar is even lamer).

I dunno, I really do think approaching 32nd level is (beyond) the point at which the game is rapidly becoming unplayable as literally anything other than TO rocket tag, and the people who can play TO rocket tag are plenty capable of creating their own souped-up stats for creatures.


The Immortals Handbook. And yes, they are. CR 57 Hecatoncheires, for example, can be defeated by a level 20 PO PsyWar build. CRs beyond 40? Basically meaningless.

Deities and Demigods, actually, having looked it up. The Immortals Handbook is the fan one.


Isn't CR one of those broken mechanics, where it seems as if there's no rhyme or reason behind them sometimes?

WotC assigned CRs via dartboard. They already have numbers on them, no change needed.


I remember reading a thread here about a monster that could use Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Implosion at will and it was like, CR 12.

The Adamantine Horror, which is CR 9.


Maybe they have some amazing power that was improperly calculated, or alternately maybe other monsters that are near them in CR have their CRs cranked up way too high.

The more accurate way to describe it is "dartboard". The angels almost certainly do suck for their CR (although IIRC, they all cast as high-level Clerics, so that somewhat mitigates it).

[Steward]

The Adamantine Horror, which is CR 9.

Ah, I remember now. He was from Monster Manual 2, a book that rivals only Tome of Magic for "Did they read this over even once before publication???" goodness. It also can do Disintegrate at will, because screw you, that's why.

So, yeah, I wouldn't take the CR of a monster to be a reliable gauge of its awesomeness without scrutinizing its abilities first. If it can cast 9th level spells, its CR probably shouldn't actually be 9. It also gets fuzzier when you get to higher and higher levels -- by the time you get to CR 25 or so, there's really not a huge difference up or down a level. Zaphkiel has a higher CR than Asmodeus if I remember correctly but it's certainly plausible for Asmodeus to win -- the mismatch is not as severe as, say, a human fighter 10 vs. some CR 1/4 rat.