3.5 new party, all arcane casters..

[ps377]

hello,
i'm gonna start a new party in 3.5 and i think all my 3 players wanna roll sorcerers or wizards.. I'm telling them its ok to roll whatever they will feel better about it, whatever they like, so i want some opinions on what to have them deal with for at least they get some levels.. (We are starting at level 1 because of the newbies).

Any idea on what encounters are good for 3 lvl1 arcane casters?

[Invader]

Things that don't do any damage. Your average lvl 1 warrior is going to kill a lvl 1 wizard quite often with 1 hit whether it's ranged or melee.

[ahenobarbi]

Swarms? Casters should be able to kill them and they do small damage (1d6 / round) so they should be fine.

Kobolds with slings? The same deal.

[Stux]

They are going to be very weak at level 1. Very few castings between them and very low hit points.

It depends on ideas for your campaign really. How about have them on the run from some town guards? They might not understand why they are wanted. The guards will be more concerned with capture than killing the characters, so if the players find themselves overpowered you can have them thrown in jail rather than dead. Which might serve for an interesting problem solving situation (improvising material components, or using mundane means to distract the jailer so they can get to their component pouches etc.)

Also if they are all insistent on playing full casters then maybe try convincing one to play a cleric? They might not sound as cool to a newbie, but if you show them some of the awesome spells they get access to they might be swayed. Having a cleric in the party would greatly increase your survivability anyway, with access to healing plus having a few more HP to throw around!

[eggynack]

Well, what kinda arcane casters are they? Are they crappy types who prepare a surprising amounts of magic missiles, good types who have some color sprays and silent images, or hyper optimized focused specialist conjurers with abrupt jaunt? Arcane casters can be just about anything, so good combats can be just about anything.

[ahenobarbi]

Also if they are all insistent on playing full casters then maybe try convincing one to play a cleric? They might not sound as cool to a newbie, but if you show them some of the awesome spells they get access to they might be swayed. Having a cleric in the party would greatly increase your survivability anyway, with access to healing plus having a few more HP to throw around!


Clerics are full casters ;-P

Let them replace familiars with animal companions (variant from Arcana Unearthed).

[ArcturusV]

As long as you don't have wide open field engagements, it seriously shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Just make sure their spell load out is actually decent for dealing with enemies. No burning hands, that's about as bad as you can get. But if they pick good spells to know, at first level most of their spells should severely hamper or shut down enemies.

But they need to be in a position where Engagement ranges are closer to 40-50 feet, rather than open field ranges where you suddenly have to worry about the fact that a lucky Kobold Slinger can take out your wizard from 120 feet away, with him unable to do anything back other than maybe plink with a Crossbow.

Also, they're wizards and sorcerers. This means they don't really have a lot of gear that they NEED to get. You should suggest to them that they invest in something like... one guy having ranks in Handle Animal and having some Guard Dogs. One wizard can easily afford 2 guard dogs after their load out at level 1. And that's actually a fairly significant threat at level 1, and can do wonders for their survivability with some Tripping. Yeah, Riding Dogs are a bit better at level 1... since they're actually level 2. But they're also 6 times the price.

[Stux]

Clerics are full casters ;-P

Yeah, that was my point haha. I'm guessing the newbies are all thinking "ooh, spells!" and have gone straight to the wizardy classes, and might not have even considered how powerful clerics can be.

[eggynack]

Eh, screw clerics. Druids are where it's at, especially if you want survivability. Give it a riding dog, and have him prepare his favorite first level battlefield control spells, and he's basically set.

[Addi]

What about a bodyguard for the early levels? Just play a Warrior/Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin as a DMPC for the first two or four levels. That's generally not a good idea for DMs but in this case it might help you.

[Stux]

What about a bodyguard for the early levels? Just play a Warrior/Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin as a DMPC for the first two or four levels. That's generally not a good idea for DMs but in this case it might help you.

That is a good idea. Needn't even be a DMPC. Just have a couple of generic NPC warriors that the party have been given command of temporarily. Like the mayor wants you to go investigate something, sends a couple of town guards to accompany you.

[prufock]

Are they married to those classes, or do they just want to play spellcasters? A team of Duskblade, Beguiler, Sorcerer, and Bard might be a better combo at low levels.

If they are married to those classes, just make sure they play cautiously for the first few levels. I honestly wouldn't do much differently than for a normal party, they should have the skills to handle whatever comes their way. Make sure they have distinct enough builds that they can fill niches without stepping on each other's toes.

EDIT: You could also suggest the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant to the sorcerer to make him a little more hardy at the cost of some spells per day. Make him your "frontliner." You could recommend the Abrupt Jaunt alternate class feature for the wizard to improve his survivability.

A bodyguard NPC is not a bad idea.

[CaladanMoonblad]

My first impulse? Send a standard batch of orcs, goblins and kobolds at them, just to make them rue picking arcane casters all around.

You can do that with say, all Fighters at 1st level, or all Rangers at 1st level, or all Clerics at 1st level... but all wizards or sorcerers? Slaughter them! If they are roleplaying academics who are supposed to have high intelligences, then they should run away and regroup with a proper group (including NPCs hired to fill the role of a proper fighter, or a proper archer). If they die by trying and standing and fighting... they deserve to die and reroll characters.

[DMVerdandi]

How about this.
Don't start at level 1. Start at level 5. Level 1 is just opressively boring and hard. Just don't do it.

Story wise, level one is not different from someone knowing nothing. Level 20 is not deity level, it's heroic level. That is the level when one comes into basic mastery of their class. A level 20 is black belt level.

Now, there is a level beyond that, but that is the closest real world equivalent that I could explain. People do different things to get to level 20, and have different attributes and skills, but have a wide understanding of what they are doing and can repeat it reliably.

Meanwhile, Level one is a white belt. It might seem like a fun idea, until you realize that a level 1 wizard is a brainy kid with asthma and bifocals. At level twenty, he will know more tricks and techniques than anyone else, have perfect form, and will have studied anatomy and kinesiology, and not to mention other styles of martial arts to perfection.

But until you get there, it is going to be an uphill battle.


So either start them off at 5+, or don't actually send them outside to adventure. When you think about it, it would be a waste of resources for whomever to send them out without a chance to actually win.

If combat is what allows dnd characters to level up, then have an Instructor DMPC to teach them how to fight to the point where they don't need him. Have him use summoning spells to create enemies for them, and have them fight until they get stronger.

[Stux]

Gotta disagree there. Brand new players who don't know the game rules should play their first game at level 1, unless they have loads of experience with other roleplaying games. Everything is simpler. This goes doubly so for casting classes, expecting a brand new player to pick several levels of spells without any context is a bit much.

Also I've heard some very good arguments for level 5 being roughly equivalent to the most accomplished and brilliant people in real life. Your black belt is likely level 5 at best. Beyond that you are going in to legendary hero territory, and as you approach 20 you are heading well on your way to some kind of demigod. Having a single heroic class level elevates you above the majority of the population of the world even. Well over 90% of the population (probably over 99%) of a given world, even a D&D setting, would be beneath you, most of them 1st level commoners.

[DMVerdandi]

You would be quite mistaken sir, and here is why.

1. Level 1 has little room for error, and is high risk, where a cat can kill a wizard.
It's like putting a game on nightmare mode. Stupid hard compared to the rest of the game.

2. Resource scarcity. You have weak weapons, few to no healing items, and when it comes to spellcasters, an EXTREMELY limited amount of spells castable.

3. Spellcaster physical disparity. The reason why spellcasters are weakest at level 1 is because alongside having the lowest hit dice, they have the lowest ac, the lowest strength, and sometimes the lowest dexterity. When there is only one hit dice on the line, having a D12 even averaged out is superior to a D4.
Not to mention the lack of superior armor and weapons.

If it comes to the point where they don't understand how to play, then it's not in game experience that will help them, they are going to need instruction from another person, or self study.
I had read 3.5 books for about 8 years before I actually played, and lurked on forums as well.
You kind of NEED system mastery, or you are just gonna end up killed.


And for the real life only equals level 5 argument, That is not a hard and fast idea, and a flawed one. Let's say that a commoner with straight up 10's as scores is at level 20. he really isn't that much better off than someone in the real world. He may be considered a bit more hardy. He would have action movie level endurance. That's it.

SPELLCASTERS are far above, and all the other classes that have weird and varied class features, but not necessarily a fighter, or any other classes that don't really get class features. There is little inherent value to class level. Things like spellcaster level are far more important, and Monster Hit Dice.

So to say a black belt is level 5 at best would be absolutely wrong. Black belts know FAR more "fighter feats" than an actual fighter, who knows about 11 from fighter levels.

A class level is a reflection of the mastery one has in that specific class, NOT a reflection of the class's power. A barbarian and a wizard at level 20 do not have equal power, yet are both at level 20, because they have mastered their respective classes.

A black belt is a representation of mastery of a fighting style, so a black belt karateka, or judoka would naturally be at level 20. A grandmaster would be at epic level.

Level 20 on it's own is nowhere close to demigod level.
A demigod is 1-5 DR, and that grants you usually 20 levels of outsider(deity).
By quality, that is stronger than most if all classes, due to the ability to acquire alter reality.

A level 20 commoner, and a level 1 Commoner demigod are worlds apart.
I don't know where you got that fluff, but it is strongly against crunch.

[ps377]

back home and read your ideas. Now, lets see..

1. @DMVerdandi
We are starting at lvl1 not only to learn the rules for a battle, but to learn to use their skills and their spells too. There are a lot of rules in dnd and if you dont start at lvl1 as a newbie you will end up playing bad at high levels..

2.@CaladanMoonblad
dnd is a multiplayer game, usually playing with friends. You don't play to make people angry.. You are playing to have fun. I know that playing your favorite class is more fun (ofcourse i introduce to them all the classes but they liked arcane casters..). If i wanted them to change their classes i would insist on it to my players. If i wanted to make them angry, i would kill them, no need to suggest it.. Since im asking for ideas, it means i just want to have a good time with my friends. Many people saying that a DM is the God who is trying to kill the party, and the party are the people who are trying to survive. That's wrong. DM is the God who is making the game to be fun. Trying to have his players happy. Not too easy encounters, not too hard. There is a story for everyone and i hope i will make a good one.

3. @prufock
i thought about battle src this morning, and im gonna tell them about it. Also, i will tell them about Arcane hierophant (http://dndtools.eu/classes/arcane-hierophant/), they may want to get some levels as druid too. I'm sure they would like it.

4. @Addi and @Stux
I'm thinking of having them protect a young prince (for the beginning of the story) trying to run away from the evil uncle who is trying to get the kingdom. So, maybe those 3, with 3 fighters and 2 of the fighter die in the first battle while the other one will accompany them until level 2-3 where he will die or leave the party when the prince safely return to his father. Playing with a fighter they will learn about charge, bull rush, trip and other things too. (or maybe i should add a monk too..?)

5. @eggynack
They are newbies, so even them self won't know what kind of casters they are..

6. @Stux
For some reason they prefer arcane magic.. (i guess they are gonna need a lot of potions :p)

7. @DMVerdandi
You are right, i almost got killed by 2 mouse once when i was lvl1 src..
But resources can be found by the story if are needed. Potions, scrolls (with rp spells) and others can be found easily in a palace maybe, and i will make sure they will use them all before level 3-4! :p
And i may slow down their XP gained or give them more, depending on how fast they learn.. (for example), i can't have them get a prestige class while they don't know their spells..


Thx guys for replying, sent more ideas if you have! :)

[CaladanMoonblad]

2.@CaladanMoonblad
dnd is a multiplayer game, usually playing with friends. You don't play to make people angry.. You are playing to have fun. I know that playing your favorite class is more fun (ofcourse i introduce to them all the classes but they liked arcane casters..). If i wanted them to change their classes i would insist on it to my players. If i wanted to make them angry, i would kill them, no need to suggest it.. Since im asking for ideas, it means i just want to have a good time with my friends. Many people saying that a DM is the God who is trying to kill the party, and the party are the people who are trying to survive. That's wrong. DM is the God who is making the game to be fun. Trying to have his players happy. Not too easy encounters, not too hard. There is a story for everyone and i hope i will make a good one.


My suggestion has nothing to do with "GMs are Gods" and is anathema to my GMing style. My suggestion is to be realistic about their choices. Take any module geared for level 1, and it should be "okay" if your players are smart about it. 4 casters with NPCs that they hire? That's how wizards roll- they get other people to do 90% of the labor. But your players will likely have to come to that conclusion on their own (and they will, soon, when faced with traditional foes for their level).

There's a role for a traditional mix of adventurers (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard), and as a GM of 20+ years, I certainly don't tailor my encounters to screw with the heroes or to baby them along. If you want your players to learn how to use Wizard effectively, they need to learn how to run away and not be coddled into being slaughtered later down the road if they are serious in playing in an all arcane group. You might even get one of them to say "Hm, perhaps I should try a Fighter or Barbarian or Ranger..."

[Invader]

My first impulse? Send a standard batch of orcs, goblins and kobolds at them, just to make them rue picking arcane casters all around.

You can do that way, all Fighters at 1st level, or all Rangers at 1st level, or all Clerics at 1st level... but all wizards or sorcerers? Slaughter them! If they are roleplaying academics who are supposed to have high intelligences, then they should run away and regroup with a proper group (including NPCs hired to fill the role of a proper fighter, or a proper archer). If they die by trying and standing and fighting... they deserve to die and reroll characters.

My advice is that this ^ is awful advice and shouldn't be followed. Killing your entire party at level 1 just to make a point is never a good idea. If they all want to play wizards there are perfectly acceptable encounters you can come up with to accommodate them.

[Harlot]

I just asked a similar question here at the forum, and one very good answer I got was to use Divine Casters (clerics, druids) because the arcane casters tend to have high int and low wisdom, so if this applies to your casters, their willpower saves will be quite low and the divine casters can give them a really hard time.

Oh, just realised your problem is to keep them alive ...? Well, in that case: no melee, no traps, no poison, no multiple foe encounters, and maybe simply keep the ECL lower than the partys for the first few levels?

[fishyfishyfishy]

Standard types of adventures can be used for an all arcane group. They will just have to approach things in a different way and be more cautious. A few NPC warriors as others have suggested as lackeys is a great idea since they are rather new. Another option is to have a NPC Cleric that focuses on heals and tanking damage for them. What I feel you should worry about is making sure they are all distinct from each other while still being effective. You could get one (preferably a Wizard) to focus on battlefield control and specialize in Conjuration. Another could be a Sorcerer focused on damage dealing spells (typical mailman build). Another option is to have a Buff/Debuffer, maybe a Transmuter Wizard, who buffs up their lackeys and keeps people from getting hurt.

[ahenobarbi]

There is some nice advice here, but please don't follow this:


My first impulse? Send a standard batch of orcs, goblins and kobolds at them, just to make them rue picking arcane casters all around.

You can do that with say, all Fighters at 1st level, or all Rangers at 1st level, or all Clerics at 1st level... but all wizards or sorcerers? Slaughter them! If they are roleplaying academics who are supposed to have high intelligences, then they should run away and regroup with a proper group (including NPCs hired to fill the role of a proper fighter, or a proper archer). If they die by trying and standing and fighting... they deserve to die and reroll characters.

Meh. Wizards fare fine at level 1. However new players most likely won't have enough knowledge to execute this.

Secondly all fighters at level 1 would be just as fragile as all wizards / sorcerers for newbie players (and much weaker in hands of optimizers).

Thirdly also slaughtering PCs just because you don't like class choices they made (especially after being told to play whatever they want) sounds like bad DMing.

[Eldariel]

Point them towards Color Spray and Sleep. Those two spells, combined with massive Int and specialization, are going to carry them far. CR 5 encounters; no problem. 3-Wizard/Sorc parties are massively powerful if done right. Tho yeah, the Animal Companion variant would help them deal with lesser enemies early on, and do stuff when they run dry. Familiars really kick off later; ACs are better early on.

[Gavinfoxx]

stuff

Wow... I disagree with pretty much all of this.

You really, really need to read and digest this:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Basically, it's like this:

Levels 1-6: Gritty Medieval/Renaissance Fantasy. The best normal people can achieve numbers about around where a heroic D&D level 5 character can.

Levels 6-12: Heroic Medieval/Renaissance Fantasy (also possibly, Wuxia). These characters have surpassed what normal people can do.

Levels 13-16: High-Powered Superheroes, which can alter reality

Levels 17-20: Godhood, the characters can now do essentially anything.

If you want more detail on this, read this:

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

[LordHenry]

On topic: I would STRONGLY recommend you not to screw with your players or force them into something. Either design weak encounters (no greatswords!) or let them hire a fighter npc. Ease them into the game, they are new and don't know a lot about it. Make it fun for them, let them kill goblins with a magic missile, possibly from 300ft. away, they will feel more awesome than an archer. In my experience, they will learn very fast. Also, let them encounter a wolf and show them how dangerous a wolf can be to them and how easily it can be overcome with colour spray.
If one of them plays a cleric, that would be really helpful I guess.


Off topic: I totally agree with Gavinfoxx.

[Abemad]

Or you could have them specialise in different schools, to cover all the bases. 3 focused specialists should be able to handle pretty much anything CR appropriate you throw at them - as long as one of them is a conjurer, they should be fine.

[Namfuak]

Do you know how much gold you are going to start them with? Is it the average 3d4 x 10?

[Flickerdart]

Story wise, level one is not different from someone knowing nothing. Level 20 is not deity level, it's heroic level. That is the level when one comes into basic mastery of their class. A level 20 is black belt level.
Considering that CR20 represents the most powerful generals of heaven and hell, as well as literally Godzilla and thousand year old dragons, I'm going to have to say you have a really high expectation of what a black belt is capable of.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Depends on the optimization level these casters have.

Actually, I had a blast in a party once with a Druid, a Wizard, a Warlock, and a Bard.

The Druid provided healing and Summon Beatstick x. The Bard went for DFI and was aiming at War Chanter and made the Druid's Summoned Beatsticks actually relevant. Wizard went for typical Batmanish PO, so battlefield control, nerf bats, lockdowns... that kind of thing. Also picked up a lot of utility. Warlock was aiming at MagicMart with a side of Blastomancy.

But at high-op, that party could probably take on almost any encounter up to around CR 20. So it really depends.

[Jormengand]

No burning hands, that's about as bad as you can get.

Ahahahaha-no.

Of course, you should just send arcane casters right back at them. Or swarms that they can deal with. Or send them to deal with a peasant uprising where they end up fighting commoners.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, if they know what they're doing, they'd be fine. Your average low-level monster is lucky to have a positive Will save modifier, so you Sleep or Color Spray them and then CdG with a scythe, or Power Word Pain and come back in a minute. Martial Wizard for Improved Initiative plus Hummingbird familiar mean that they will almost always go first (plus their birds can scout to make sure there's nothing nasty up ahead), or they can pick up Abrupt Jaunt instead and pop around out of harm's way.

The toughest encounters against competent low-level characters are groups of enemies that are spread out. Sleep is great for taking out clustered or single targets, but not so hot when all the enemies are 50 feet apart and shooting you with bows. Action economy is on their side, and given how important the d20 is at these levels, they are probably going to slaughter any low-level party.

Keep in mind that as a 3-man party, even a CR1 encounter is more than level-appropriate for them. You're looking at something like three kobolds, two goblins, or a single orc, as a level-appropriate challenge. Yes, they'll be screwed if you throw ten orcs at them, but so will anyone at this level.

Given that they're newbies, they'll probably be running around blasting, though. Try to gently steer them towards more useful spells.

[ArcturusV]

I dunno. I don't think they're as "Doomed" as it's made out to be. But it would require a different mindset. Your payers will probably really want to use the Illusionist Mindset when they go about encounters and problems. "I don't kill enemies, I manipulate the arena to the point where the enemies are no longer an obstacle". Or the Enchanter Mindset: "An enemy is just a friend I haven't dominated yet."

Definitely should be a dungeon adventure, or perhaps a heavy forest setting to control engagement ranges and allow the party a chance to (If playing smarter) determine how and when fighting actually starts. As long as they take it systematically, show a little caution in their playstyle, they should get through it fairly easy.

Course, my mindset is also a bit different. I know people are saying things like they won't have enough spells. But it's hardly older DnD where they'd have 1 spell a day. Presuming say, 2 wizards and a Sorcerer you end up with 10 first level spells and 11 Cantrips. There are plenty of First level spells that can just slam a first level encounter shut, or massively handicap it.

Just make sure they pick moderately effective spells.

[Karnith]

Course, my mindset is also a bit different. I know people are saying things like they won't have enough spells. But it's hardly older DnD where they'd have 1 spell a day. Presuming say, 2 wizards and a Sorcerer you end up with 10 first level spells and 11 Cantrips.
A party full of spellcasters actually solves one of the major problems of playing a low-level spellcaster, because encounter endurance is suddenly much less of a problem when you have three times the normal number of spells available to the party. If they're specialists or focused specialists (or sorcerers, I suppose), I would imagine that they will be able to make it through an adventuring day pretty easily. Particularly if they drop their familiars for animal companions, or something similar.

Also, I know that other people have already said this, but it really does bear repeating that if they are new to the game, you need to make sure that they pick/prepare useful spells.

[nedz]

Hmm, well the normal advice for casters is to focus on BC and let the melee do the actual damage. This advice is not quite so good here since there are no melee characters — so the casters do need to do some damage, one way or another.

I wouldn't change my approach specifically for this party, since I always try to feel out new parties with a measured approach. Level 1 combats can be quite swingy so you need to be able to think on your feet.

[Eldariel]

Hmm, well the normal advice for casters is to focus on BC and let the melee do the actual damage. This advice is not quite so good here since there are no melee characters — so the casters do need to do some damage, one way or another.

I wouldn't change my approach specifically for this party, since I always try to feel out new parties with a measured approach. Level 1 combats can be quite swingy so you need to be able to think on your feet.

Coup de grace on helpless target is good enough coming from a 6 Strength Wizard with a Scythe. Turns out cutting heads off is easy. Strong level 1 spells still incapacitate so they're pretty reliable, and stuff like Crossbows and Alchemist's Fires are great for clean-up. It's not hard to win fights on low levels, and endurance is pretty comparable to a standard party since while they're squishy, they win fast and hard vs. basically anything if played well. Fighter still dies to one crit on low levels too so not that much is lost; it's certainly safer to play a ranged caster than a melee warrior (though reach weapon Barbie is a different matter of course).

But yeah; having some/all take Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) would solve the imaginary problem of not having a frontliner by giving you free, eminently expendable, powerful (early on) frontliner. It'll fall off really fast but level 1, it's just as good as Druid's and it'll get the job of taking hits and coup de gracing/finishing off done for a few levels (especially with Bardings and potential buff or two).

[Coidzor]

Between Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and the Abrupt Jaunt variant, they should have enough leeway to learn the ropes.

Especially if one of the players is more experienced.

Wizard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570.0)handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)might be in order. Or handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0)in general (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240).

[JusticeZero]

Start at level 1 BUT:

Give them max HP at first level. I give median rounded up at every level afterward because it makes things easier. Encourage them to have a decent Con score.

Furthermore, I give all characters 4 extra HP - this is "Commoner HP". It helps a bit.

Then comes enemy choice. I NEVER, EVER use orcs at bottom level. Of course, then later I don't usually use orcs because by the time they are safe enemies to use, they're under level, but oh well.

It's not that I dislike orcs. It's that Orcs have big weapons and do a lot of damage, so their damage spikes can kill a level one character. This is a BAD THING. Instead, I use things like goblins or vegepygmies, things that are Small and have low Strength and use little weapons that do 1d4 or 1d6 damage each. That way, the damage comes in in small dribbles that are easier to deal with.

Furthermore, if they do drop a character below zero, that character will fall down and be ignored - and they will have a few rounds in which someone can extract them and stabilize their wounds. It is almost impossible for them to blast them all the way from positive HP to -10 in one swing.

Hand them a few potions of healing. CLW, or even just that spell that heals 1hp. It'll help in such a case.

[Gavinfoxx]

Every Wizard needs to buy and get war trained a fighting animal, like a Mule or Riding Dog.

[Flickerdart]

Start at level 1 BUT:

Give them max HP at first level.

That's already what happens.

[angry_bear]

Since they're all new, I'm guessing you want to keep it relatively simple? If you start throwing out ACF's and everything else, it may get a bit overwhelming for them. And honestly, 3 arcane casters don't need much outside of core, even at low level to be effective. One summons, one does field control, and one buffs or deals damage (Not ideal until a little later on though). They don't have to specialize in doing that long term, and considering the classes, they can take turns each day to see which style they prefer. They'll still have a semi difficult time, but it's not going to be impossibly difficult for them to become an effective group.

I'd probably give them a couple more magic items early on. Not armour or anything, but scrolls, wands, healing potions. Nothing major, just stuff that'll make it easier on them.

[Fouredged Sword]

The wild cohort feat means you have a level 3 fighter as a sidekick, at level 1. A riding dog will keep up until 6th level, and then stays a competent tank for another few HD.

And everyone in the party can take one.

[ArcturusV]

Riding Dogs would be too expensive on level 1 starting wealth for a wizard. But Guard Dogs are cheap and can fit a "Scout" role which can be important. Not to mention being your nighttime bodyguards. Even more effectively than the Fighter would have been.

[ericgrau]

I like the idea to send some NPC warriors or similar to acompany them. I doubt bland DMPCs will overshadow, and they'll relieve some level 1 woes. I wouldn't coddle the players, but their employers should have some sense. Animals require handle animal (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm) though and the checks are hard.

I don't like the idea of trying to prove a point with massive deaths on both sides. Falchions one shot wizards, and sleep + coup de grace kills foes, but who cares? When the foes fail their saves and the wizards walt over them, then the next group passes their saves or are immune or (gasp) go first and there's a TPK, what do you prove?

They should build their own characters with only partial guidance too, and with the classes they like. Ideally they should pick up sleep or color spray and you can let them know, but only push them to get some kind of combat spell. Explain to them that in D&D you fight foes. As long as they get some combat spell it should at least be passable. And sometimes foes like zombies need alternate spells. But walking up to unfriendly kobolds with comprehend languages is trouble. Explain that later on they can prepare utility spells, 2nd in priority to combat spells. Or for low level spells prepare the hour/level ones and get scrolls for the rest.

If they do get NPC warriors I would caution them about enlarge person, since even veterans can fall into that trap. It is for reach warriors and grapple warriors. Others may do more damage, but they also take more damage so for a lost turn & lost spell it's pretty meh.

[DMVerdandi]

Wow... I disagree with pretty much all of this.

You really, really need to read and digest this:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Basically, it's like this:

Levels 1-6: Gritty Medieval/Renaissance Fantasy. The best normal people can achieve numbers about around where a heroic D&D level 5 character can.

Levels 6-12: Heroic Medieval/Renaissance Fantasy (also possibly, Wuxia). These characters have surpassed what normal people can do.

Levels 13-16: High-Powered Superheroes, which can alter reality

Levels 17-20: Godhood, the characters can now do essentially anything.

If you want more detail on this, read this:

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

I have already read it and let me tell you... It's *****.
None of that disproved what I said. Think about this... Let's say a character is level 1, and has the paragon template? He knows very little class abilities, but is Physically and mentally extraordinary.

Yes, skills and abilities when taken to a high level are superhuman, but they have to be taken there. Meanwhile you can have a level 20 commoner that is the complete paragon of mundane-ness itself. Just average as hell. Not even close to superpowered in our world. Average.

It isn't level that makes you powerful in itself. It is feats, abilities, skills, class abilities, and equipment. Those are the things that make characters strong. One can be at level 20 and absent of any useful iteration of those things.

Also for that "godhood" argument, any mundane class is not even close to reaching godhood at level 20. Caster-types are, because casting makes them so, but even that is an understatement, since an actual deity taking epic level feats, and moreso optimized for high levels is the WORST nightmare a caster could ever face. EVER.
Deity is simply the craziest template achievable in DND. Divine rank just smashes through everything, usually with Alter reality.

THAT is a deity's power. Not just regular spellcasting. That is a mage. And a mage is the closest mortal thing to a god, but to call a caster a god would be the overstatement of thea century. Alter reality is a sonova...

And I don't care about what other non-canon stuff has to say about it.
"Well aragon is only..." I am not talking about aragon, I am talking about greyhawk. It is it's own universe with it's own rules and ideas about itself.

The blackbelt was not a representation of actual physical power or whatever, it was a representation of the degree between neophyte and master level. Level 20 is undoubtedly master level. A level 20 fighter has mastered standard fighting. A level 20 wizard has mastered standard wizardry, and a blackbelt has mastered standard martial arts. There is a stream of logic going straight through.

Making the argument that a blackbelt couldn't survive in dnd is inconsequential to me. That isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about DND godhood being much farther away in power than spellcasting in itself, even DR 1. It is. Because alter self comes on line at dr 1, and if you have it, you are by definition the greater than ANY 20th level spellcaster on the planet. Any spell they can cast, you can cast. Any buff they can have, you can make PERMANENT. Any metamagic you wish to add, can be added WITHOUT KNOWING IT.

But that is comparing them to tier 1 classes. However there are at most 6 of those tier 1 classes, with each lower tier getting progressively less powerful. Tier 1 struggles to be godlike. Tier 2 can't even reach it.

A level 20 commoner is not approaching godhood. Unless they are optimized, they aren't approaching anything. but mastery in commoner stuff, whatever that may be. Being sheeple, I suppose.

Level 20 MAGES/SUPERNATURAL TYPES, aren't even approaching godhood. not really at all. Everything else is meh. They can do alot, but that is because they have mastered... MAGIC. But straight up reality altering is god-level stuff. The entirety of magic, that is the magic of ALL classes at level 20, Plus other random benefits is godhood.

alter reality is worth all magic classes at the same time. so one class really can't cut it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You are missing a paradigm here...

A Fighter 20 is not merely a master of 'standard fighting', he is an unstoppable juggernaught unless you happen to be a similarly high level melee class or a caster. Or, yanno, anything within about 4-5 CR of him.

Just with his WBL and proper gear alone, to say nothing of optimization, no one under level 10, other than a caster, is going to be able to touch him. His AC will just be too high, and he will have too many hit points. He can outright slay a Giant in a single blow. Hell, with Great Cleave and some reach-stacking, he could kill seven giants in a blow. This is not merely mastery of standard fighting, this is an individual it would literally take an army to take down.

Speaking as a black belt in multiple styles, your assertion that Monk20 is merely 'black belt' is laughable. A monk20 is immune to poison, disease, is no longer even considered 'mortal' anymore (Native Outsider), can punch through Adamantine with his bare fist and no preparation, can go Ethereal and Dimension Door every so often... no. Just no.

At level 1, a Monk is a Black Belt. He can kill most common people in one punch. His unarmed attacks are as lethal as a shortsword. He gets his Wisdom bonus to AC, so he's very difficult for a normal person to even lay a hand on.

At level 2, he can be totally consumed by a 20' radius ball of fire and come out without even singed hair. This is not 'black belt' this is Wuxai and wire-fu.

By level 9, a Wizard, if he was sufficiently paranoid, can be literally impossible to find and kill, even using Divine Salient Abilities. Because he is only level 9, he doesn't qualify as Legendary, so Legend Lore can't track him down, which is what True Knowledge does. Everything else can be bypassed by Scroll of Genesis and Lesser Planar Binding of a Djinni to Plane Shift him there. Then he just takes steps to make sure that no one can find him. Mind Blank is the easiest way.

By level 9, he can have an arbitrary wealth from using Wall of Iron or Wall of Salt and making enormous profits. Because he also has Teleport, he can avoid deflating any one economy by visiting every market on the planet. That's how he can afford the scroll in the first place. The Spellcraft check is trivial.

[Mithril Leaf]

You would be quite mistaken sir, and here is why.

1. Level 1 has little room for error, and is high risk, where a cat can kill a wizard.
It's like putting a game on nightmare mode. Stupid hard compared to the rest of the game.

2. Resource scarcity. You have weak weapons, few to no healing items, and when it comes to spellcasters, an EXTREMELY limited amount of spells castable.

3. Spellcaster physical disparity. The reason why spellcasters are weakest at level 1 is because alongside having the lowest hit dice, they have the lowest ac, the lowest strength, and sometimes the lowest dexterity. When there is only one hit dice on the line, having a D12 even averaged out is superior to a D4.
Not to mention the lack of superior armor and weapons.

If it comes to the point where they don't understand how to play, then it's not in game experience that will help them, they are going to need instruction from another person, or self study.
I had read 3.5 books for about 8 years before I actually played, and lurked on forums as well.
You kind of NEED system mastery, or you are just gonna end up killed.


And for the real life only equals level 5 argument, That is not a hard and fast idea, and a flawed one. Let's say that a commoner with straight up 10's as scores is at level 20. he really isn't that much better off than someone in the real world. He may be considered a bit more hardy. He would have action movie level endurance. That's it....
[stuff]

While you are correct that level 1 isn't a good starting point for many due to being too swingy, I believe you aren't quite correct about higher levels. E6 is intended to model the real world fairly well by capping level advancement at six and granting feats after that. At level 6, you can master a fighting style fairly well. You also can make skills checks to create a masterwork item every time. You also don't get to fall thousands of feet and survive unless you are both beefy and lucky. A level 20 can jump hundreds of feet straight up. He can spend time in lava without dying immediately. He can (with moderate optimization) see invisible things by the dust they displace around them. Normal humans can't do any of the level 20 things, but match level 6 well.

[Stux]

I have already read it and let me tell you... It's *****.

Have to disagree with you.

For a start, I don't accept level 20 commoner as being at all relevant as an argument. It isn't a real thing. We are talking about modelling a character using D&D rules, so it is perfectly fair to assume some level of optimisation. The entire point is you can model heroic figures capable of doing incredible things at relatively low level.

A level 5 character's skills not just can be taken to nigh-superhuman levels, but if you are in any way optimised, even slightly, then something about the character will be at least verging on superhuman. Just having a single skill on max ranks for that level makes you at least as good at that thing as the best people in real life, if not better.

And when we say a character is approaching godhood, we dont mean they are approaching what the D&D rules determine to be godhood, and certainly dont mean to compare it to alter reality (which, while it can be obtained at DR1, not all deities even of much higher divine rank have in practice), we mean to compare their abilities to general conventional ideas of what a lesser god might be capable of.

Where I think a lot of the disagreement comes from is our perception of what level 20 means, and this concept of 'mastery'. I don't have a definite point of mastery in the way I look at D&D as a model. There is simply the best anyone has managed to get at that thing so far, and that is what is considered mastery by people. A master martial artist might be considered a master, only until someone develops new techniques that raise the bar for what is considered mastery by that community.

The old master might have been level 20 (beaten by an epic), he might have been level 5. It doesn't really matter, all that matters is the context within the setting. Is he the best? If not how does he compare to the best? How does he compare to other people he encounters, and the general population around him?

Its not as simple to me as: you aren't a master (even if no one has ever been as good as you at that thing before), then one day you arbitrarily achieve mastery and thats it.

[marcielle]

Maybe start at level 2? Still have 1st level spells only but they won't(or maybe just less likely) die to a cat that won Init. They have more spells. And make sure they are aware there is always an alternative to shoot things with magic missile. Sorcs get good diplomacy and have maybe a 50% chance of simply talking their way out of an encounter. Make up 'hints' to represent a wizards knowledge skills. IF someone really wants to just shoot all day, maybe introduce him to warlock. Which is basically your spells are weaker but infinite.

[Gavinfoxx]

1.) Tell them that they should not, under any circumstances, have a con below 14.
2.) Give them half their die type, rounded up, every level after the first in hit points.
3.) Start the game at level 3 or 4.

[Eldariel]

3.) Start the game at level 3 or 4.

I'll second, third and fourth this, to be honest. 1st level games are rocket launcher tag and unless DM is fudging or players are extremely lucky, there will be PC casualties. This has nothing to do with Wizards and everything to do with 1 HD characters in general.

Yeah, Wizards are at the most risk if hit since they have that D4, but in general any level 1 character has low enough HP, saves and...everything that they run the risk of getting one-shot by stuff. Obviously, level 1 is all about not getting hit in the first place (Wizards in particular are quite good at this).

[JusticeZero]

Hence the avoiding using Orcs as enemies in favor of stuff that couldn't one shot a wizard even to zero without a critical hit. It isn't rocket tag when the stuff you're fighting is armed with marshmallows.

[Der_DWSage]

You might also look into not having the typical 'Killing others is the only way to gain XP' method of playing. These are three arcane casters-why not have them seek infinite arcane knowledge rather than be murder hobos? Send them on quests into ancient scrolls that test their knowledge of the arcane, of history, even of nobility as they track down the Tomb of the great Wizard-King Hashep the 3rd, whose spellbook was entombed for the worthy to seek.

Grant them XP for avoiding combat in the same amount that would have been given for seeking it out in the first place, so long as they're not literally going 'And we go home instead. How much XP do we get?'

Look into traps and trickery, rather than nasty things with knives. Teach them to play cautious, and to use their spells to the fullest-they might make a mistake here and there with their magic missiles, but one or two cursed items would teach them to prepare Identify, overtly magical traps would teach them the use of Detect Magic, and an overnight ambush from a few ridiculously weak creatures like rats would teach them the use of Alarm. A few physical hurdles without a time limit? They rest for the day and prepare Expeditious Retreat and Jump.

Don't be afraid to go 'Are you -sure- you want to do that?' before they take foolish actions. These are first timers, it sounds like. Be gentle. Throw them some scrolls and lots of potions so they can make mistakes, and feel like Indiana Jones, pillaging ancient ruins with little more than their wits and some cantrips.

Let them ease into combat. Encounters should have laughably low HP, but be tricky because of terrain or enemies that work as a team. Have there be Kobolds with nets that want to capture them alive, because live meat tastes better. Let them be saved by a senior mage's well placed spell, and teach them the value of a single action at the right time with the right conditions. Let them come into places where they can save others, because they have an opportunity to ambush and turn things around. Don't throw 'real' combat encounters at them until they have 2nd level spells.

Long story short? Don't treat them like the typical fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party. They're different-treat them like it.

[ps377]

As i said before, i guess i will have them been on the run and while they are on it they may find the palace magic storage room, where they can find potions and scrolls which they will really have to use them to get away from the palace and to counter their encounters.
I would let them pick any spell they want and i will give them that way what other spells they are missing for rp buff of anything else. I will make sure they use them all and learn some more rules and stuff of the game. That way they will learn that they can't activate scrolls. for example. that are not on their spell list.

[Hanuman]

My advice for level 1 is don't throw any encounter at them with the intention of them winning it.

Make it avoidable and evadable, give them a puzzle or two then have them carry out a small sidequest where they bite off a lot more than they can chew, then allow them some major choices and clearly vocalize those choices, then allow it to unfold slowly so they have a chance to not get wiped.

This could be anything from opening pandoras box in the wizard school to being set out to find the cause of strange blue smoke rising from a ralllying goblin camp in the forest, only to find they cant close pandoras box on their own, or they find a hidden rallying war effort about to storm the castle.

Give these events macro-ramifications, this'll be an easy hook to get the campaign arch rolling from a smaller one.

[ps377]

My advice for level 1 is don't throw any encounter at them with the intention of them winning it.

Make it avoidable and evadable, give them a puzzle or two then have them carry out a small sidequest where they bite off a lot more than they can chew, then allow them some major choices and clearly vocalize those choices, then allow it to unfold slowly so they have a chance to not get wiped.

This could be anything from opening pandoras box in the wizard school to being set out to find the cause of strange blue smoke rising from a ralllying goblin camp in the forest, only to find they cant close pandoras box on their own, or they find a hidden rallying war effort about to storm the castle.

Give these events macro-ramifications, this'll be an easy hook to get the campaign arch rolling from a smaller one.

my thoughts are kinda like this

[Wings of Peace]

A lot of it's going to depend on their play style. If they go around using nothing but crowd control paired with a ranged weapon and a coup de grace weapon there's a good chance they'll live long enough to become a force to be reckoned with.

[DMVerdandi]

You are missing a paradigm here...

A Fighter 20 is not merely a master of 'standard fighting', he is an unstoppable juggernaught unless you happen to be a similarly high level melee class or a caster. Or, yanno, anything within about 4-5 CR of him.
That is a lie and you know it. A fighter is not an unstoppable juggernaut at level 20. He can be a skilled archer, or a fencer, or an unarmed combatant.

A level 20 fighter is a warrior whom is skilled with feats. It can be a juggernaut if you decided to go that route, but you really don't have to. That is nowhere in the fluff of a fighter. Go re-read the PHB. The fluff for a fighter is that fighter is a class that transcends traditions and class, and is a warrior skilled in battle and fighting. And NOTHING is indicative of godhood at level 20 in the PHB. NOTHING.

Epic level by fluff is the characters becoming exceptional. Heroes of legend. Someone that bards write about, but they still aren't called gods. Re-read the fluff AND crunch.

The closest base class to your idea is the barbarian.


Just with his WBL and proper gear alone, to say nothing of optimization, no one under level 10, other than a caster, is going to be able to touch him. His AC will just be too high, and he will have too many hit points. He can outright slay a Giant in a single blow. Hell, with Great Cleave and some reach-stacking, he could kill seven giants in a blow. This is not merely mastery of standard fighting, this is an individual it would literally take an army to take down.
WBL Is a guideline, not a hard-fast rule.
I would dare to say it's an OPTIONAL guideline.


Speaking as a black belt in multiple styles, your assertion that Monk20 is merely 'black belt' is laughable. A monk20 is immune to poison, disease, is no longer even considered 'mortal' anymore (Native Outsider), can punch through Adamantine with his bare fist and no preparation, can go Ethereal and Dimension Door every so often... no. Just no.
I never asserted that a monk 20 was a black belt 20.
I asserted closer that it was equivalent to a fighter, rather than a monk, as most fighter feats are quite mundane in application.
Please, don't put words in my mouth.
Monk 20 is totally supernatural.


At level 1, a Monk is a Black Belt. He can kill most common people in one punch. His unarmed attacks are as lethal as a shortsword. He gets his Wisdom bonus to AC, so he's very difficult for a normal person to even lay a hand on.
So what color of belt does a master monk wear? In context a level 1 monk would be a white belt, because he is an amateur monk. A level 20 monk would be a black belt. That was my point all along!!! That level 20 characters are simply masters of their craft. They are not gods in their own world, because by nature, DND deities are beyond level 20.




At level 2, he can be totally consumed by a 20' radius ball of fire and come out without even singed hair. This is not 'black belt' this is Wuxai and wire-fu.

By level 9, a Wizard, if he was sufficiently paranoid, can be literally impossible to find and kill, even using Divine Salient Abilities. Because he is only level 9, he doesn't qualify as Legendary, so Legend Lore can't track him down, which is what True Knowledge does. Everything else can be bypassed by Scroll of Genesis and Lesser Planar Binding of a Djinni to Plane Shift him there. Then he just takes steps to make sure that no one can find him. Mind Blank is the easiest way.

By level 9, he can have an arbitrary wealth from using Wall of Iron or Wall of Salt and making enormous profits. Because he also has Teleport, he can avoid deflating any one economy by visiting every market on the planet. That's how he can afford the scroll in the first place. The Spellcraft check is trivial.


While you are correct that level 1 isn't a good starting point for many due to being too swingy, I believe you aren't quite correct about higher levels. E6 is intended to model the real world fairly well by capping level advancement at six and granting feats after that. At level 6, you can master a fighting style fairly well. You also can make skills checks to create a masterwork item every time. You also don't get to fall thousands of feet and survive unless you are both beefy and lucky. A level 20 can jump hundreds of feet straight up. He can spend time in lava without dying immediately. He can (with moderate optimization) see invisible things by the dust they displace around them. Normal humans can't do any of the level 20 things, but match level 6 well.
Again, this is arbitrary to my argument. I am not comparing POWER, I am comparing MASTERY. It doesn't matter WHAT you master, it matters THAT you mastered it. A level 20 CW samurai is just as much a master as a level 20 wizard is, BUT the class abilities that they mastered are COMPLETELY different in scope and power.

Is the level 20 CW samurai a god just because he is level 20? NO. and that is the point. It's what you know. Tier 1 class abilities are the best, so saying that every other class ability is equal to it betrays the whole idea of tiers existing in the first place.



Have to disagree with you.


For a start, I don't accept level 20 commoner as being at all relevant as an argument. It isn't a real thing. We are talking about modelling a character using D&D rules, so it is perfectly fair to assume some level of optimisation. The entire point is you can model heroic figures capable of doing incredible things at relatively low level.

But those things are EASILY within mortal grasp in setting. There is a fluff disparity. You guys are making up fluff that isn't there. I wasn't comparing power at all. Never really did. I compared level of mastery. In Greyhawk LEVEL 20 COMMONERS Exist. We could say he is a master at his profession. Like a level 20 commoner who is a librarian has built up so much non-combat experience dealing with the library system that he/she is a beast at it. Or just living is a way to gain practical experience. Who knows. Level is abstracted too far in dnd.

HOWEVER, becoming a tier 2-1 class costs the exact same amount of experience points, so it's not to say a mage is a god. No. They are actualizing their own magical potential. It is to say, a normal thing to be able to access supernatural power in this setting. it is ABNORMAL to NOT become magical, as it is the same distance from being a commoner to a mage. Only a fool theoretically would become anything but a caster of some sort.
One could make the argument that standard units are easier to train, but it is false because... IT TAKES THE SAME AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE TO REACH DIFFERENT LEVELS. MAGIC IS STUPIDLY EASY TO LEARN IN DND. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO BE SMART. Just have a mental knack in some way.
At least for humans this is the case.


A level 5 character's skills not just can be taken to nigh-superhuman levels, but if you are in any way optimised, even slightly, then something about the character will be at least verging on superhuman. Just having a single skill on max ranks for that level makes you at least as good at that thing as the best people in real life, if not better.

In game context, level 5 is like just barely being able to handle simple dangers. It is still relatively low level. A journeyman.




And when we say a character is approaching godhood, we dont mean they are approaching what the D&D rules determine to be godhood, and certainly dont mean to compare it to alter reality (which, while it can be obtained at DR1, not all deities even of much higher divine rank have in practice), we mean to compare their abilities to general conventional ideas of what a lesser god might be capable of.
To do so would be misleading as dnd has it's own concept of what gods are, how strong they are, and what type of abilities they have.
Mordenkainen and the eliminister are NOT gods. They are master mages. To call them otherwise would be disrespectful to the gods.

Conventional ideas cannot be taken very far in DND as greyhawk has it's own universe.



Where I think a lot of the disagreement comes from is our perception of what level 20 means, and this concept of 'mastery'. I don't have a definite point of mastery in the way I look at D&D as a model. There is simply the best anyone has managed to get at that thing so far, and that is what is considered mastery by people. A master martial artist might be considered a master, only until someone develops new techniques that raise the bar for what is considered mastery by that community.
That is only because of the epic level handbook taking off the level cap. However, epic level is certainly beyond the beyond. THAT is superhuman. Level 20 is well within human means and capability. 21 is when you start letting go of what people consider normal. Level 20 is DAMN GOOD, but it is still within normality.





The old master might have been level 20 (beaten by an epic), he might have been level 5. It doesn't really matter, all that matters is the context within the setting. Is he the best? If not how does he compare to the best? How does he compare to other people he encounters, and the general population around him?

Its not as simple to me as: you aren't a master (even if no one has ever been as good as you at that thing before), then one day you arbitrarily achieve mastery and thats it.

But DND IS arbitrary. All of these things I have been saying is HOW IT IS, not how it should be. You all are speaking and saying, by the rating of outside sources, this is how it is. At level 5 dnd characters are superhuman! But In a world where being a fully actualized adventurer STARTS at level 20,saying such a thing is not accurate. Epic level already put it into perspective. You don't even get immortalized until you are epic level. You become universally famous at that point. Deities start looking at you specifically, as you have proved to be exceptional. Level 20 is not exceptional, it is the precipice of exceptionallity. It is mastery within reason. It is normal for someone dedicated to reach level 20, like it is normal to graduate from a school. Unless something tragic happens, it is the natural end to the means.'

10CHAR....

[ArcaneGlyph]

I think your group stands a very good chance for success. For example if there is a gray elf in the mix, you could have a 20 dex and a 20 int. Say he goes generalist and take collegiate wizard. Now he has a crazy number of spells per day and a very full spell book. He also take a longsword as a weapon which as an elf he's proficient with. Cast up mage armor, shield, prot evil and have a sleep in reserve. Maybe toss in nerveskitter for fun to make sure you go 1st. coup de grace to victory!

[Eldariel]

I think your group stands a very good chance for success. For example if there is a gray elf in the mix, you could have a 20 dex and a 20 int. Say he goes generalist and take collegiate wizard. Now he has a crazy number of spells per day and a very full spell book. He also take a longsword as a weapon which as an elf he's proficient with. Cast up mage armor, shield, prot evil and have a sleep in reserve. Maybe toss in nerveskitter for fun to make sure you go 1st. coup de grace to victory!

Longsword with -2 Strength and 20 Dex/Int isn't gonna be very useful :smalltongue: Longbow maybe if 10 Str, but not Longsword.

[Draz74]

Riding Dogs would be too expensive on level 1 starting wealth for a wizard. But Guard Dogs are cheap and can fit a "Scout" role which can be important. Not to mention being your nighttime bodyguards. Even more effectively than the Fighter would have been.

Well, the truly optimal (if reckless) way to play a Wizard at Level 1 (barring Pazuzu shenanigans) is to sell your spellbook at half market value to break the expected wealth rules. At which point, yeah, you can afford riding dogs. Although you'll only want a few, after which it's more efficient to buy hordes of cheaper animals. Mules are probably a better deal than guard dogs.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, the truly optimal (if reckless) way to play a Wizard at Level 1 (barring Pazuzu shenanigans) is to sell your spellbook at half market value to break the expected wealth rules. At which point, yeah, you can afford riding dogs. Although you'll only want a few, after which it's more efficient to buy hordes of cheaper animals. Mules are probably a better deal than guard dogs.

Magebred mules for the win man. It only doubles their very low cost.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well it's sell your spellbook and retrain to Eidetic Spellcaster, and THEN get Riding Dogs.

But for now, Mules would work MUCH MUCH better -- as you can get a whole bunch of them...

[Draz74]

Magebred mules for the win man. It only doubles their very low cost.

Fair enough. :smallamused:

EDIT: I assume Magebred is better than Warbred? I'm not overly familiar with either template.

EDIT2: Back on topic, I really do think the Wild Cohort feat would be a good idea for your party of 3 Wizards/Sorcerers. Starting them at Level 2-4 also sounds like a good idea to me.

[Mithril Leaf]

Fair enough. :smallamused:

EDIT: I assume Magebred is better than Warbred? I'm not overly familiar with either template.

EDIT2: Back on topic, I really do think the Wild Cohort feat would be a good idea for your party of 3 Wizards/Sorcerers. Starting them at Level 2-4 also sounds like a good idea to me.

Warbred and magebred are about on par as far as increases go, but magebred doubles the price of anything priced, while warbeast sets a price in the first place. That's why magebred is better on mules. It's much most cost effective to get warbeasts of higher level animals though, and you can have both.

[Coidzor]

Magebred mules for the win man. It only doubles their very low cost.

Best 16 gp I've ever spent.

[TuggyNE]

'

10CHAR....

Hrng, what did the quote tags ever do to you? :smallsigh:

Let's see… characters officially become legends at 11, not 21, due to legend lore.


WBL Is a guideline, not a hard-fast rule.
I would dare to say it's an OPTIONAL guideline.

It's not optional, no, due to the fact that it's never marked as optional.


I never asserted that a monk 20 was a black belt 20.
[…]
So what color of belt does a master monk wear? In context a level 1 monk would be a white belt, because he is an amateur monk. A level 20 monk would be a black belt. That was my point all along!!! That level 20 characters are simply masters of their craft. They are not gods in their own world, because by nature, DND deities are beyond level 20.

So, apparently, you decided that you needed to assert that, since you hadn't yet. There's a pretty serious arbitrary equivalence here: because level 20 is the max for non-epic characters, therefore it must inevitably be the same in all ways as the max for ordinary humans here as well.

Which, mind you, it isn't, if you compare actual abilities, rather than just "% completion of listed track", as you actually admitted already; given that Monk 20 has lots of things that no human can do, it's plain that they are much further along. Almost as if they were a higher level or something!

(Incidentally, real-world martial arts tend to have a number of grades of black belts; Taekwondo, for example, which I am most familiar with, has up to 10th Dan black belts; the last of these is only awarded posthumously. "Black belt" is not the ultimate designation of ultimate skill that you seem to think it is.)

[Stux]

'

10CHAR....

I can understand why you have the viewpoint you have, but I think it stems from using the system of D&D to build a very different world to that a lot of people build (specifically those of us who disagree with you, but generally a lot of other people).

You see in games I have played, getting to level 20 is not something that normal people are capable of. It is not the top of a scale that is accessible to absolutely anyone just by hard work. It might be accessible to PCs, but this is because they are special, because there is something inherent in them, or granted divinely, that allows them to supersede what the ordinary person in the game world could ever be capable of.

This is because NPC aren't on an experience scale. They are by default level 1, mostly in an NPC class, and those that are particularly skilled or gifted might have attained a few more class levels. A very few people in the world might be in some way like the PCs, capable of transcending the norm or things, these are the NPCs with class level above say 5. Level 20 commoners don't exist in these worlds, because as a general rule commoners aren't privileged to be able to transcend in this way. A master in a traditional sense is therefore someone with a level or two above the vast majority of the population. Those who get even higher are beings of legend in this world, whose abilities subvert that worlds very idea of what mastery is.

Now I understand your position I am not saying you are wrong, simply that the fantasy world you appear to be modelling with the rules is not the same as the rest of us.

[Dras Kvaal]

something with low dmg i guess.

[JusticeZero]

"Black belt" is not the ultimate designation of ultimate skill that you seem to think it is.)
Yeah. In analogy of education levels in the ascent to the heights of academia, a black belt is equivalent to a high-school diploma or associates degree. It's a very unimpressive rank that denotes that you now grasp the basic curriculum.

[Hanuman]

black belt

What's your martial arts background?

[TuggyNE]

Yeah. In analogy of education levels in the ascent to the heights of academia, a black belt is equivalent to a high-school diploma or associates degree. It's a very unimpressive rank that denotes that you now grasp the basic curriculum.

I should probably note, just for completeness, that I am not a black belt; I only made orange during my lessons. :smallsigh:


(Offtopic: I do still remember my instructor's comments about white belts vs black belts: a white belt is someone who might hurt or kill himself or others by mistake, but can't do it at all reliably or with any particular discrimination; a black belt will minimize hurt and avoid killing if at all possible, but is able to avoid being hurt or killed themselves. In other words, general lethality actually decreases with skill.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah. In analogy of education levels in the ascent to the heights of academia, a black belt is equivalent to a high-school diploma or associates degree. It's a very unimpressive rank that denotes that you now grasp the basic curriculum.

I would agree and slightly disagree here. A Black Belt is effectively a journeyman. He can teach students, but he still has much to learn before becoming a Master. He is an advanced student, capable of passing along the basics to beginners and to assist in teaching in general as he makes the transition to a new understanding of the martial art he studies.

A Master in TKD is 5th Degree Black Belt.

Of course, the quality of the student depends on the quality of the instructor. Some schools are more... lax... than others.

However, to address some points:


That is a lie and you know it. A fighter is not an unstoppable juggernaut at level 20. He can be a skilled archer, or a fencer, or an unarmed combatant.[Citation Needed]
At level 20, with 10 bonus feats, he can be all of these simultaneously.


A level 20 fighter is a warrior whom is skilled with feats. It can be a juggernaut if you decided to go that route, but you really don't have to. That is nowhere in the fluff of a fighter. Go re-read the PHB. The fluff for a fighter is that fighter is a class that transcends traditions and class, and is a warrior skilled in battle and fighting. And NOTHING is indicative of godhood at level 20 in the PHB. NOTHING.How about the fact that he can take a lava bath without being particularly injured? 20d6? Come on, he's got at least twice that, plus con bonuses.

Just the fact that he's got, 20*(1d10+Con mod) hit points makes him a juggernaught.


Epic level by fluff is the characters becoming exceptional. Heroes of legend. Someone that bards write about, but they still aren't called gods. Re-read the fluff AND crunch.From Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm):


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

So no, Legendary is around level 11. By 20, they far exceed that.

Also, I think you are trying to take the phrase 'a god among men' literally rather than metaphorically speaking. A level 20 Fighter cannot kill a being with Divine Rank 1+ (although a Wizard 20 certainly can), but he might as well have Divine Rank for all the good it does CL 5 encounters (i.e. 99% of the population) trying to so much as affect him.

You keep using that word Mastery, but I don't think it means what you think it means

[JusticeZero]

The ability to do damage increases dramatically as you continue. However, people stop wanting to fight you. If someone gets in your face threatening violence, they are generally bluffing because a fight would be annoying, they are counting on you being afraid of fighting and backing down. If you instead idly start pondering how to deal with the fight, they realize that things are not going according to plan and suddenly back off. Also, you now have enough power available that you can arrest instead of just trying to mail in the damage.
Thus, the damage goes down. It's not because the inexperienced have huge damage output.
(I'm at a teaching level.)

[ArcturusV]

I'd say the disconnect involved with "At level 20 a fighter is merely a skilled..." has to do with the feeling you get from stupid Feat Chain taxes.

If you want to be a "skilled" archer, as most would think of it, you're talking about a hefty Feat Investment that is going to take up nearly all 10 of your Fighter Bonus Feats. If you want to be a skilled Two Weapon Combatant, well, you can take every feat you earn into Two Weapon Combat and relevant skills and STILL feel like you can barely manage to make it work.

For example, if "real world" stuff is capped out at level 5 or so (Not that I necessarily believe it, but I hear it often enough), a 5th level fighter should be able to say, dual tomahawk like a master. As there are people who fight like that and are quite proficient and not taking clumsy "I lose all my BAB to offhand weapon penalties" or the like. As well as being skilled throwers with them as well as Melee. And still having enough other perks that they're not wholly one dimensional towards being some Tomahawk master.

But in DnD terms? That would require about... 7 more feats than a level 5 Fighter gets in order to really do that. And only on the one dimensional Tomahawk Master who can't do anything else.

[Flickerdart]

What is "dual tomahawk mastery" supposed to entail? Because a Human Fighter can get TWF, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot at level one without flaws, and throw three tomahawks in six seconds. In two more levels, he adds Power Attack and Power Throw to kick up his damage. In three more levels, he picks up Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization: Tomahawk, as well as ITWF, so now he's throwing five tomahawks in six seconds more accurately for more damage.

[TuggyNE]

The ability to do damage increases dramatically as you continue. However, people stop wanting to fight you. If someone gets in your face threatening violence, they are generally bluffing because a fight would be annoying, they are counting on you being afraid of fighting and backing down. If you instead idly start pondering how to deal with the fight, they realize that things are not going according to plan and suddenly back off. Also, you now have enough power available that you can arrest instead of just trying to mail in the damage.
Thus, the damage goes down. It's not because the inexperienced have huge damage output.

Sure, yeah, I didn't explain that quite as well as I meant; someone inexperienced can do considerable damage by mistake, but that's about it. Control is far more useful and effective than raw strength, in other words.

[Hanuman]

Level 1 Monk == Decade+ of shaolin training
Level 10 Monk == Not even comparable
Level 20 Monk == Not Mortal (Outsider, DR, Literally Ascended)

I'm not super into external martial arts, but I can tell you that people are capable of some absolutely insane things compared to how they are portrayed in DnD in terms of physical skill, and this isn't accomplished by going for "belts", its from treating martial arts as an art.

Legit play with a judo foundational tai chi practitioner (yang style tai chi chuan 25th year) for anyone who's interested. I can vouch him as a character reference and as a skilled practitioner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pfopwrpbaM

Very similar to this, similarly legit (if you doubt go find these people and try not to get injured or disrespectful):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU

Point is, meet as many people from as many different styles as you can before assessing your personal boundaries, see what you can do against them. Learn for yourself what one "blackbelt" is before giving them the benefit of the doubt of how skilled they are, and what it actually gives them. Talk, learn, relate, play.

[Flickerdart]

Level 1 Monk == Decade+ of shaolin training
Level 10 Monk == Not even comparable
Level 20 Monk == Not Mortal (Outsider, DR, Literally Ascended)
According to the random starting ages, it can take anywhere between 2 and 12 years of training for a human to become a 1st level monk, average 7 years. So not quite a decade, but probably enough time IRL to get the lowest black belt in something.

Thus, we can conclude that a 1st level monk is indeed black belt level.

[Hanuman]

According to the random starting ages, it can take anywhere between 2 and 12 years of training for a human to become a 1st level monk, average 7 years. So not quite a decade, but probably enough time IRL to get the lowest black belt in something.

Thus, we can conclude that a 1st level monk is indeed black belt level.

I'm not even talking black belt, I'm talking completing iron palm training or an equivalent bone density/musculoskeletal training.

[Flickerdart]

Hm, that would definitely explain why monks deal more damage than fighters who pick up IUS.

[Emperor Tippy]

Level 1: Professionally good at whatever it is you do. In the case of a Monk this is comparable to a real world "black belt" capable of running their own dojo and teaching kids for money.
Level 3: Master level good at whatever it is you do. In the case of a Monk this is close to Olympic level good,
Level 4: Master+ level good at whatever it is you do. In the case of a Monk this is Olympic Gold level (as in wins gold in most track and field events, in gymnastics, and is a world champ in MMA).
Level 5: Grandmaster level good. This is the best living in the real world kind of good.
Level 6: Best in all of real life history level good. In terms of Swimming this would be Michael Phelps level.

Level 7-9: Standard action movie level good. Firmly superhuman but not to the dodge bullets/one punch steel vault doors level.

Level 10-14: This is standard legendary Hero level and/or street level Marvel/DC. In D&D terms this is the level where you really start to become a strategic national asset and (whether you want it or not) your voice and actions become *important* on a national+ scale. You might not be able to solo the battalion guarding the capital of a major nation but you can come close.

Level 15-16: This is firmly into the "one man sovereign power" level. When the average peasant thinks of a God, you are what comes to mind. Your worst feats are still better than their absolute best. A melee character, even a Monk, is a god of battle who can fairly casually wade through an entire army without any real risk. You tend to be concerned with things that threaten the entire world and quite literally charging the gates of Heaven or Hell isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Level 17-20: You would be perfectly at home as a first rank member of the Justice League or Avengers (yes, even as a Monk). You can casually do things that would leave even the legends standing there in awe.

Level 21+: Highly variable, from little more than the same general scale as level 17-20 all the way up to capable of throwing down with top tier deities.

[MukkTB]

Wait! Where are the hordes of people who believe a wizard is more powerful than a fighter at level 1? Abjurant Jaunt and all that?

[eggynack]

Wait! Where are the hordes of people who believe a wizard is more powerful than a fighter at level 1? Abjurant Jaunt and all that?
They showed up. There's just the general implication that these wizards won't be taking abrupt jaunt, unless the DM specifically tells them about it. I'm not really sure where the break point where wizards outpace fighters is. I've heard everywhere from level one, to level ten. I suspect that the real answer maxes out around level five or six, but there are some odd folks who say ten. Anyways, they're probably about on par at that level, and a little on the fragile side if abrupt jaunt is not in the picture.

[Maginomicon]

Just make sure their spell load out is actually decent for dealing with enemies. No burning hands, that's about as bad as you can get. But if they pick good spells to know, at first level most of their spells should severely hamper or shut down enemies.That reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G5PjlCMlGw).

[Emperor Tippy]

Wait! Where are the hordes of people who believe a wizard is more powerful than a fighter at level 1? Abjurant Jaunt and all that?

Abjurant Jaunt does nothing when you die before your turn comes up in the Initiative order. It does nothing to help you against two archers (you can only AJ away from one per round).

Wizard is perfectly capable of playing *solo* from levels 1 to 20 but it requires a player who knows what they are doing and plays smart.

That being said, Wizard is far from the most powerful class at ECL 1-6.

[MukkTB]

I'd agree it doesn't happen at level 1 at less optimized play. I'm not sure exactly when. Probably either level 3 or level 4 spells.

[LordHenry]

Level 10-14: This is standard legendary Hero level and/or street level Marvel/DC. In D&D terms this is the level where you really start to become a strategic national asset and (whether you want it or not) your voice and actions become *important* on a national+ scale. You might not be able to solo the battalion guarding the capital of a major nation but you can come close.




I have always been wondering: Are your players the only optimised people in your campaign world? Because otherwise, in my experience, they are very strong and can do a lot of crazy stuff, but so can many other people in the world and thus at Level 10-14 the still have a long way to go... The battalion guarding a major city, it's knight commander (or whatever the highest rank is), would at least be lvl 12-15 (and more optimised than straigth fighter 15) in my imagination of a campaign world.

[Spuddles]

My first impulse? Send a standard batch of orcs, goblins and kobolds at them, just to make them rue picking arcane casters all around.

You can do that with say, all Fighters at 1st level, or all Rangers at 1st level, or all Clerics at 1st level... but all wizards or sorcerers? Slaughter them! If they are roleplaying academics who are supposed to have high intelligences, then they should run away and regroup with a proper group (including NPCs hired to fill the role of a proper fighter, or a proper archer). If they die by trying and standing and fighting... they deserve to die and reroll characters.

Wow, you sound fun.


Every Wizard needs to buy and get war trained a fighting animal, like a Mule or Riding Dog.

Handling them in combat can be difficult without a good charisma or handle animal. It takes a standard action to give a command.

The best way to handle this is to take 10 out of combat having different dogs guard different things. For instance, each wizard gets a guard dog. Then there is one attack dog that is guarded by 4 or 5 other dogs. Then each wizard can take an action to try and send in the primary dog without having to roll for the other 5 mutts.

Also, this feat:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

Wild cohort is pretty great.


Well, the truly optimal (if reckless) way to play a Wizard at Level 1 (barring Pazuzu shenanigans) is to sell your spellbook at half market value to break the expected wealth rules. At which point, yeah, you can afford riding dogs. Although you'll only want a few, after which it's more efficient to buy hordes of cheaper animals. Mules are probably a better deal than guard dogs.

In a party with enough wizards, this wouldn't be so bad, since you could share a spellbook.


Wait! Where are the hordes of people who believe a wizard is more powerful than a fighter at level 1? Abjurant Jaunt and all that?

Playing a wizard that wins at low level requires a high degree of system mastery.

[TuggyNE]

I have always been wondering: Are your players the only optimised people in your campaign world?

Not even a little. Tippy optimizes his NPCs pretty far beyond most ideas of optimized PCs. See also the entire Tippyverse.

[Emperor Tippy]

I have always been wondering: Are your players the only optimised people in your campaign world? Because otherwise, in my experience, they are very strong and can do a lot of crazy stuff, but so can many other people in the world and thus at Level 10-14 the still have a long way to go...
No, everyone is optimized to their mental stats generally.


The battalion guarding a major city, it's knight commander (or whatever the highest rank is), would at least be lvl 12-15 (and more optimised than straigth fighter 15) in my imagination of a campaign world.
See, no. He would be a level 7-9 person in a world I was running generally.

And per the DMG, the absolute best a metropolis can have is 3 level 20 Fighter, 6 level 10 fighters, 12 level 5 Fighters, 24 level 3 Fighters, and 48 level 1 Fighters. And that is simply in residence. If, for example, the PC's kept their home base and place of residence inside such a metropolis then they would be that top tier. A regular old city of ten thousand or so has, at best, two level 14 Fighters.

The Kings Champion would be the level 15-17 martial character and may well be one of the PC's.

And yes, that one individual might be on the PC's level but the rest of the guard isn't. A PC can kill the high level "Knight Commander" first and then proceed to kill the rest. Sure they have to be smart about it but they can solo an entire battalion if they want.

Why do you think that I use things like mass Shadesteel Golem armies as city guards?

Or have part of the selection process for the army be being bitten by a were Dire Tiger, were Dire Bear, or were Dire Bat.

In the case of the were Dire Tigers they have 17 HD worth of skills and feats plus a number of other abilities. One use of Psychic Reformation and they have the Change Shape skill maxed (so +20 from Ranks).

Were Dire Bats make a great cheap airforce. Were Sharks are good for naval use.

And the best thing is that the next generation will be natural lycanthropes.

Just don't use any of the ones that make your soldiers chaotic or evil and you are good.

[Mithril Leaf]

No, everyone is optimized to their mental stats generally.


See, no. He would be a level 7-9 person in a world I was running generally.

And per the DMG, the absolute best a metropolis can have is 3 level 20 Fighter, 6 level 10 fighters, 12 level 5 Fighters, 24 level 3 Fighters, and 48 level 1 Fighters. And that is simply in residence. If, for example, the PC's kept their home base and place of residence inside such a metropolis then they would be that top tier. A regular old city of ten thousand or so has, at best, two level 14 Fighters.

The Kings Champion would be the level 15-17 martial character and may well be one of the PC's.

And yes, that one individual might be on the PC's level but the rest of the guard isn't. A PC can kill the high level "Knight Commander" first and then proceed to kill the rest. Sure they have to be smart about it but they can solo an entire battalion if they want.

Why do you think that I use things like mass Shadesteel Golem armies as city guards?

Or have part of the selection process for the army be being bitten by a were Dire Tiger, were Dire Bear, or were Dire Bat.

In the case of the were Dire Tigers they have 17 HD worth of skills and feats plus a number of other abilities. One use of Psychic Reformation and they have the Change Shape skill maxed (so +20 from Ranks).

Were Dire Bats make a great cheap airforce. Were Sharks are good for naval use.

And the best thing is that the next generation will be natural lycanthropes.

Just don't use any of the ones that make your soldiers chaotic or evil and you are good.

You'd probably want to gun for Legendary Tigers wouldn't you? Then you have legally epic soldiers at little cost.

[Jandrem]

I ran a game that had a party of arcane casters. Wasn't as bad as some people out here make it out as.

At low levels, just ease up on melee/non-magic encounters. Swarms are good, since they don't do too much damage, and casters should have ample ways of dealing with them. If you want to run physical encounters(soldier, fighters, etc), make sure the casters outnumber them. Emphasize spells that incapacitate enemies, not lean on damage spells as much.

Let them get a couple of levels under their belt, build up some defenses, and then start pushing more physical encounters on them. They should be aware of the physical frailty early on, and maybe this will actually force them to work together and formulate spell selection, bolstering their defense and working together to survive.

If all else fails, toss in a NPC bodyguard to at least be a meat-shield for them.

[Emperor Tippy]

You'd probably want to gun for Legendary Tigers wouldn't you? Then you have legally epic soldiers at little cost.

Well yes but finding those tends to be more difficult.

[Gavinfoxx]

Handling them in combat can be difficult without a good charisma or handle animal. It takes a standard action to give a command.

That's why you DON'T 'handle animal' them in combat.

You pre-train them to take useful actions. Namely, the tricks "Attack", "Attack Any", and "Defend".

So they automatically attack any threat.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well yes but finding those tends to be more difficult.

All you need is one though. If you've got the resources of a large Tippyverse City State's army research budget, I've got to imagine you can find or create one. Open a gate to one and offer him a few awesome magic items if he bites one of your higher up trusted officers.

[LordHenry]

No, everyone is optimized to their mental stats generally.


See, no. He would be a level 7-9 person in a world I was running generally.

And per the DMG, the absolute best a metropolis can have is 3 level 20 Fighter, 6 level 10 fighters, 12 level 5 Fighters, 24 level 3 Fighters, and 48 level 1 Fighters. And that is simply in residence. If, for example, the PC's kept their home base and place of residence inside such a metropolis then they would be that top tier. A regular old city of ten thousand or so has, at best, two level 14 Fighters.

The Kings Champion would be the level 15-17 martial character and may well be one of the PC's.

And yes, that one individual might be on the PC's level but the rest of the guard isn't. A PC can kill the high level "Knight Commander" first and then proceed to kill the rest. Sure they have to be smart about it but they can solo an entire battalion if they want.

Why do you think that I use things like mass Shadesteel Golem armies as city guards?

Or have part of the selection process for the army be being bitten by a were Dire Tiger, were Dire Bear, or were Dire Bat.

In the case of the were Dire Tigers they have 17 HD worth of skills and feats plus a number of other abilities. One use of Psychic Reformation and they have the Change Shape skill maxed (so +20 from Ranks).

Were Dire Bats make a great cheap airforce. Were Sharks are good for naval use.

And the best thing is that the next generation will be natural lycanthropes.

Just don't use any of the ones that make your soldiers chaotic or evil and you are good.


Intersting. It seems, in my campaigns and campaigns I have played, there are more high level npc's. I knew there were numbers for those, but I never really bothered to look at them or take them fro granted.
I like it more that my players don't feel like gods too early (and this is easily achieved by having other powerhouses), also, I have always found it stupid that my players were the only ones leveling up by killing stuff!

[Emperor Tippy]

Intersting. It seems, in my campaigns and campaigns I have played, there are more high level npc's. I knew there were numbers for those, but I never really bothered to look at them or take them fro granted.
I like it more that my players don't feel like gods too early (and this is easily achieved by having other powerhouses), also, I have always found it stupid that my players were the only ones leveling up by killing stuff!

What you have to remember is that you gain a level every 13 CR equal to ECL encounters and that there is no actual universal rule that you only face equal CR encounters. An equal CR encounter stands about a 20% chance of killing a PC, at least it is supposed to (as in 5 such encounters in a day should generally give you a TPK).

The DMG says:
Challenging (50% of encounters): Most encounters seriously threaten at least one member of the group in some way. These are challenging encounters, about equal in Encounter Level to the party level. The average adventuring group should be able to handle four challenging encounters before they run low on spells, hit points, and other resources. If an encounter doesn’t cost the PCs some significant portion of their resources, it’s not challenging.

Very Difficult (15% of encounters): One PC might very well die. The Encounter Level is higher than the party level. This sort of encounter may be more dangerous than an overpowering one, because it’s not immediately obvious to the players that the PCs should flee.

Overpowering (5% of encounters): The PCs should run. If they don’t, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is five or more levels higher than the party level.

Resurrection magic generally comes online around ECL 7-9 (and is certainly not universally available to NPC's, leaving aside the fact that most things don't want to be resurrected and thus can't be). To reach ECL 7 you need to survive 13 encounters that you are expected to stand a very good chance of dieing in (as in about 50/50).

To survive the reach level 10+ requires that you either have the luck of the gods or are massively paranoid, plan everything to the nth degree, and are that one in a million individual who is just that good.

You are very much a legend at that point.

Level 20? You don't live to see that without being so hardcore and extreme that just a mere sliver of your standard defensive suite is enough to get you classified as certifiably paranoid by most people.


That has nothing to do with the basic mind set. A level 20 wizard who gained those levels through adventuring from level 1 has faced a minimum of 290 life or death fights and survived them all. He is more intelligent than the greatest human minds who have ever lived. He is driven and motivated to the level of Alexander the Great or the like. Why is all that true? Because it has to be for him to have 1) willingly embraced the risks involved in adventuring and 2) survived them.

Anything at level 20 that isn't incredibly paranoid reached that level through divine intervention and luck.

Adventuring is just about the most dangerous profession that has ever existed. I believe it's the DMG that mentioned that only 10% of people make it past level 5, the rest died. Those percentages get worse as you go up in level until a level 20 wizard is an incredibly rare event.

[LordHenry]

My pragmatic approach has always been this: Generally, only the stronger people will survive to higher level and/or weaker peope either die or realise that adventuring is just too dangerous for them at a certain point and they quit. Survival of the fittest if you will. I also tend to give certain important or potent npc's more point buy than common, standard npc's (like your level 1-3 rogues in a thieves guild - they get elite array most of the time, if I dont feel like they should be something special).
An important (and strong) NPC might get 32 points buy (in rare cases maybe even more). Not that this would make that much of a differnce, but it is one way I kinda represent that they are something special, different from all those commoners anyway, but also even better than many capable adventurers.

I want my players to be heroes, but not the only ones and not the strongest right away. They have to earn that title.

[Flickerdart]

An equal CR encounter stands about a 20% chance of killing a PC, at least it is supposed to (as in 5 such encounters in a day should generally give you a TPK).
The DMG says that a CR-equivalent encounter should expend ~20% of party resources, I believe, which is not quite the same thing. It's only on the 4th or 5th such encounter in the day that there's even a chance that someone will die; before that it's more about avoiding attrition.

[Emperor Tippy]

I want my players to be heroes, but not the only ones and not the strongest right away. They have to earn that title.
And by level 10 they have earned that title. Level 11 is RAW for "Legendary Hero" level. As in every Bard for the next five generations will be able to recite your lineage, famous feats, battles, and pretty much everything else.

Level 15 is far beyond merely legendary Hero, it is mythical hero level. Unless people have seen you do it with their own eyes they won't really believe those stories about you. They are just exaggerations of your legendary feats.

Level 20 is God level as far as most of the population is concerned. A level 20 cleric isn't just the favored priest of his deity, he is the living earthly avatar of his god and faith. On the mortal plane he speaks with the voice of his deity and can perform miracles that will go down in legend at will by simply requesting it.

A level 20 wizard does things like say "I am turning off the sun over this city" and has turned off the sun an hour later. Or becomes a dragon at will. Or makes a copy of a god that obeys him absolutely. Or make someone unaging. These are feats that are fairly casual for a level 20 wizard.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Wait! Where are the hordes of people who believe a wizard is more powerful than a fighter at level 1? Abjurant Jaunt and all that?

Most of them start playing at level 5-15, because despite their pronouncements to hypotheticals that allow them several rounds to buff, they know deep down in their heart, that Fighters/Rangers/Barbarians are carrying them until they can finally get access to Fireball, Fly, and Deep Slumber to finally pull their own weight with on level encounters.


Abjurant Jaunt does nothing when you die before your turn comes up in the Initiative order. It does nothing to help you against two archers (you can only AJ away from one per round).

Wizard is perfectly capable of playing *solo* from levels 1 to 20 but it requires a player who knows what they are doing and plays smart.

That being said, Wizard is far from the most powerful class at ECL 1-6.

And of course, Abjurant Jaunt does not exist in Core only games. So... if people are new, and just got the game... chances are they got the core books or SRD. I agree with Tippy's point though- however, 1st level Wizard's Save DC is going to be 10+spell level+ Int mod (so like, 13 for a Wizard with the elite array). That means a 35% save chance for an NPC that has +0 Will Save (like say, Warriors). So with 2 1/2 CRs or a single 1 CR encounter, probably two hypothetical wizard/sorc characters will be expending a 1st level spell (Color Spray, Sleep, etc.) per encounter for the day (4 on a standard formula session per day).


I'd agree it doesn't happen at level 1 at less optimized play. I'm not sure exactly when. Probably either level 3 or level 4 spells.

I've noticed it happens with access to Fireball in Core only, maybe less for people who allow everything under the sun including 3rd party hi-jinx.


Wow, you sound fun.

Handling them in combat can be difficult without a good charisma or handle animal. It takes a standard action to give a command.

The best way to handle this is to take 10 out of combat having different dogs guard different things. For instance, each wizard gets a guard dog. Then there is one attack dog that is guarded by 4 or 5 other dogs. Then each wizard can take an action to try and send in the primary dog without having to roll for the other 5 mutts.

Also, this feat:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

Wild cohort is pretty great.

In a party with enough wizards, this wouldn't be so bad, since you could share a spellbook.

Playing a wizard that wins at low level requires a high degree of system mastery.

Actually, I am fun, having indoctrinated several dozen people into RPG as a hobby over the past 20 years. I run a "realistic game." Always have, always will. Like I said before, I don't run encounters to screw with my heroes, or to coddle them. I set up challenges, and they figure out ways through or around those challenges.

Handle Animal is cross class for a wizard. And people make different choices depending on where they start; the wild cohort does nothing for a game starting at level 10. This is why I always start campaigns at low level, because a realistic character has to deal with "growing up" and making those choices which are best for them in the present (such as finding ways to find a meat shield because they are inherently frail).


Intersting. It seems, in my campaigns and campaigns I have played, there are more high level npc's. I knew there were numbers for those, but I never really bothered to look at them or take them fro granted.
I like it more that my players don't feel like gods too early (and this is easily achieved by having other powerhouses), also, I have always found it stupid that my players were the only ones leveling up by killing stuff!

Population is pyramidal; few people on these boards have a sound understanding of social science theory, of which most of the DMG population rules are based upon assumptions and trends from social science. Experience is cumulative in DnD (and just about every RPG I've ever played) and frequently based upon challenges surmounted or survived. Most people don't have to fight hordes of bandits on their way to work; we have the police to keep us safe.

I as well don't like my players to feel 'godly too early' which is why it is hard to find good storylines that reflect real world dynamics in DND for levels 15+. I never understand people who start games at 15 or 20 levels other than just to roll lots of dice and build characters that would never have survived past level 1-3 but look great at level 20.


My pragmatic approach has always been this: Generally, only the stronger people will survive to higher level and/or weaker peope either die or realise that adventuring is just too dangerous for them at a certain point and they quit. Survival of the fittest if you will. I also tend to give certain important or potent npc's more point buy than common, standard npc's (like your level 1-3 rogues in a thieves guild - they get elite array most of the time, if I dont feel like they should be something special).
An important (and strong) NPC might get 32 points buy (in rare cases maybe even more). Not that this would make that much of a differnce, but it is one way I kinda represent that they are something special, different from all those commoners anyway, but also even better than many capable adventurers.

I want my players to be heroes, but not the only ones and not the strongest right away. They have to earn that title.

I agree 100%. My games are usually 25 or 30 point buy, while NPC heavies get the same starting pool while everyone else gets a standard array or a half-elite array for mooks. The point of DnD is to tell a heroic story, with memorable opponents. However, without challenge, or with sugar puffed encounters to suit the frailties of player choices... that's not a fun game at all. If a player plays a Bard the same way they might a Fighter... I have no problem with dead Bards telling no tales.

[Emperor Tippy]

The DMG says that a CR-equivalent encounter should expend ~20% of party resources, I believe, which is not quite the same thing. It's only on the 4th or 5th such encounter in the day that there's even a chance that someone will die; before that it's more about avoiding attrition.

20% of the parties resources and HP is counted as one such. Does your party Wizard have 20%+ of the party HP? No? Well then he stands a good chance of dieing.

Equal CR challenges can and will kill characters. Will it happen every time? No, but it will happen. And you need 13 of them to level.

One good damage roll for a standard action attack can drop a wizard. One full attack can drop even front line melee characters. One failed save can and will kill you. If you are caught flat-footed or surprised once then one good sneak attack can and will kill you when performed by an equal ECL Rogue (a CR appropriate challenge for a party of 4).

The party might win all of those fights without any real chance of a TPK but any given member of that party stands a decent chance of ending up dead.

Now do that 13 times (minimum) per level. And throw in the challenges that are explicitly called out to kill party members (or even the whole party). 5% of all of the parties encounters should be against things that will kill the entire party if the party does not flee immediately.

Surviving to level up, even if you only face equal CR encounters and only have a 1 in 10 chance of dying in any given encounter gives you only a 28% chance of surviving to reach the next level.

To go from level 1 to level 5 on such odds has a .17% chance of survival. Less than one out of every five hundred individuals who take up adventuring as a career at level 1 can expect to live to level 5. Living to level 10 has a .00029% chance. So 2.9 out of every ten thousand individuals who make the adventuring attempt can expect to live to reach level 10.

[LordHenry]

In my campaign, however, I have stronger and weaker individuals, and thus said chances increase/decrease accordingly.

Also, we all know that players (at least in my experience) die less often and will mostly make it to level 10, with a few deaths on their way, but still very likely that they make it.

[Emperor Tippy]

In my campaign, however, I have stronger and weaker individuals, and thus said chances increase/decrease accordingly.

Also, we all know that players (at least in my experience) die less often and will mostly make it to level 10, with a few deaths on their way, but still very likely that they make it.

Hence the "luck of the gods" exception.

If you actually play your encounters decently optimized and to their Int scores you will find that PC deaths increase dramatically and rapidly, at least until the PC's learn to be properly paranoid.

Making an ECL 1 fighter that will slaughter most ECL 1 parties isn't that difficult.

See this for a similar example.
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/11/01/counter-monkey-leaping-wizards/

[Flickerdart]

20% of the parties resources and HP is counted as one such. Does your party Wizard have 20%+ of the party HP? No? Well then he stands a good chance of dieing.

Equal CR challenges can and will kill characters. Will it happen every time? No, but it will happen. And you need 13 of them to level.

One good damage roll for a standard action attack can drop a wizard. One full attack can drop even front line melee characters. One failed save can and will kill you. If you are caught flat-footed or surprised once then one good sneak attack can and will kill you when performed by an equal ECL Rogue (a CR appropriate challenge for a party of 4).

The party might win all of those fights without any real chance of a TPK but any given member of that party stands a decent chance of ending up dead.

Now do that 13 times (minimum) per level. And throw in the challenges that are explicitly called out to kill party members (or even the whole party). 5% of all of the parties encounters should be against things that will kill the entire party if the party does not flee immediately.

Surviving to level up, even if you only face equal CR encounters and only have a 1 in 10 chance of dying in any given encounter gives you only a 28% chance of surviving to reach the next level.

To go from level 1 to level 5 on such odds has a .17% chance of survival. Less than one out of every five hundred individuals who take up adventuring as a career at level 1 can expect to live to level 5. Living to level 10 has a .00029% chance. So 2.9 out of every ten thousand individuals who make the adventuring attempt can expect to live to reach level 10.
Yeah yeah, I've done the math with that assumption before. If you look at most monster stat blocks though, you'll find that most of them are of the high defense low offense variety, rather than the reverse, so if you play safely and retreat when injured, you don't really get surprise deaths.

Granted, the monsters you use probably vary a lot from the monsters in the book, but that's what's in there anyway.