A problem ... but not really

[Balor01]

My players are REALLY good.

Well, one of them is. He plays beguiler and:
- is sort of healthily paranoid
- can use Disguise to cast spells so other casters do not know if he is actually casting unless they suceed at Spot, thus illusions are super effective
- has epic skills at positioning

... then there are two more melee types, one is barbarian which is kind of meh, but warblade is a competent player(also has decent build) and can pretty much two-shot anything (of reasonable CR, which is up to +4) I throw at them. (they are all lvl six and have piss poor equiptment. A bit better then sharpened sticks)

Combat usually goes like this:

- hostile NPCs spotted
- Illusion appears
- hostile NPCs are dealing with illusion while being two-shotted by PCs

Now my (sort of) problem is I feel like I am in a sort of arms race. Raising AC, hp, STR, etc ... is not really giving any results. Modules, built for LvL 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 characters are mostly ... silly.

But going further quickly becomes stepping over the line with strong swarms, incorporeal enemies or full casters. Because ... my players are not breaking any rules. And I do not WANT to screw them. It is just a strange feel when PCs are roflstomping all encounters with pure tactics.

What do you guys think of this?

Catgirls may also comment.

[fishyfishyfishy]

This can be a big issue or a little one. The players are being smart, and you don't want to punish them for playing smart. The first thing you need to ask yourself is "Is my group having fun?" If the players are enjoying themselves and you are having fun as well, then you don't really need to do anything different. If you're not having as much fun but the players are then maybe ask them to tone it down a bit. If you don't feel like that is an option, try using different types of enemies than what you are using now. Illusions don't work against everything you know. Creatures with Blindsense (Like Oozes or Dragons) will know right away they shouldn't bother with the illusion. Another option is to use their own tactics against them. Try using an Abeloth as a sort of dungeon boss that has mind controlled minions and uses illusions to mess with their head and get them thinking more creatively.

EDIT:


- can use Disguise to cast spells so other casters do not know if he is actually casting unless they suceed at Spot, thus illusions are super effective


If you want enemy spellcasters to have more of a chance, try using spells like Arcane Sight.

[Abaddona]

Well - did you tried using similiar tactics as them? For example illusions as a way to provoke them to spend their resources. Also make them face enemies in disatvangeus situations (traps, enemies having cover and attacking from hard to reach places), even simple fight will get harder when they will have to move through slope (with grease spell casted on it) or in narrow space. If they play smart so should you - if enemies get tricked they can temporarily withdraw and then prepare own ambush etc.

[Jornophelanthas]

This sounds like you only use very limited tactics against these players.

- Players always spot the enemies first, so they can prepare their illusion ambush.
- The enemies are always close enough by to get into the 2 melee players' range.
- The enemies are unable to save reliably against the illusions.

My guess is that you only use living melee monsters with poor will saves against your players. Mix it up!

- If the players are invading some enemies' turf, the enemies will know the terrain better than the players, and use it to their advantage. They know the escape routes, the traps and the hiding (and ambush) places. Let the enemies decide where the fight takes place.
- Ranged attackers do not get lured closer by illusions, but wil instead start shooting at range.
- Enemies with good Listen/Spot/Move Silently/Hide will spot and ambush the players first.
- Enemy spellcasters (even non-full spellcasters) can use all kinds of magic against the players (e.g. dispelling the illlusion), and are better at saving against illusions, too.
- Mindless creatures (zombies, oozes, constructs) are totally unaffected by illusions.
- If the enemy are a balanced party (a mix of martial types and spellcasters), they will also use tactics, e.g. help one another, warn each other, or combine spells/maneuvers in an effective way.
- There is more than just the entries in the Monster Manual. You can also use enemies with character levels.

[Harlot]

Let Blink dogs ambush the group!!

=Scent, so doesn't care about illusions
=blink, 50% miss chance
=dimension door, so it can get close to the wizard in melee
=darkvison, lets them attack at night when the PC's have minus to their spot checks

If ECL is to low to start with, look and behold: MORE blink dogs teleport in to rescue their homies (as they run in packs).

Enjoy!

[nedz]

This sounds like you only use very limited tactics against these players.

- Players always spot the enemies first, so they can prepare their illusion ambush.
- The enemies are always close enough by to get into the 2 melee players' range.
- The enemies are unable to save reliably against the illusions.

My guess is that you only use living melee monsters with poor will saves against your players. Mix it up!

- If the players are invading some enemies' turf, the enemies will know the terrain better than the players, and use it to their advantage. They know the escape routes, the traps and the hiding (and ambush) places. Let the enemies decide where the fight takes place.
- Ranged attackers do not get lured closer by illusions, but wil instead start shooting at range.
- Enemies with good Listen/Spot/Move Silently/Hide will spot and ambush the players first.
- Enemy spellcasters (even non-full spellcasters) can use all kinds of magic against the players (e.g. dispelling the illlusion), and are better at saving against illusions, too.
- Mindless creatures (zombies, oozes, constructs) are totally unaffected by illusions.
- If the enemy are a balanced party (a mix of martial types and spellcasters), they will also use tactics, e.g. help one another, warn each other, or combine spells/maneuvers in an effective way.
- There is more than just the entries in the Monster Manual. You can also use enemies with character levels.
this really. You need to up your game and provide more challenging encounters. This shouldn't involve hiking the CR as much as using different tactics/types of monsters.

But going further quickly becomes stepping over the line with strong swarms, incorporeal enemies or full casters. Because ... my players are not breaking any rules. And I do not WANT to screw them. It is just a strange feel when PCs are roflstomping all encounters with pure tactics.
Er, just no, what is this line of which you speak ?
You need to challenge your players or they will just get bored.

Let Blink dogs ambush the group!!

=Scent, so doesn't care about illusions
=blink, 50% miss chance
=dimension door, so it can get close to the wizard in melee
=darkvison, lets them attack at night when the PC's have minus to their spot checks

If ECL is to low to start with, look and behold: MORE blink dogs teleport in to rescue their homies (as they run in packs).

Enjoy!

Major Image includes smells, but otherwise a good idea.

[Malvanis]

One of the players in my group is super overpowered every time. I hate being the DM in our group because everyone else is average power and he just breaks the game. If this game breaking comes from tactical advantage, bring in creatures that eliminate this advantage. If it comes from super overpowered builds, increase CRs.

[Harlot]

Major Image includes smells, but otherwise a good idea

OK, the illusions could have scent as well, and thus distract the Blink dogs, but with multiple blink dogs teleporting here and there on the combat grid, they'd still have a fairly good chance of getting to the wizard. And if/when they get within 5 feet of the wizard, they can still pinpoint him.

Also agree with Nedz on the swarms - why not use them? No line there, just level appropriate challenges.

[Oko and Qailee]

I found myself in this situation before. IMO there are two solutions:

1) change enemy tactics
2) change the enviroment.

For the first, have slightly smarter enemies that fight a little bit more unorthodox. Make them hidden so they spot the party first. Stuff like this goes a long way of not being too difficult but challenging.

The second has to do with the rules of the encounter itself. Make it more than simply "We fight a bunch of griffons" make it "we fight a bunch of imrpoved bullrushing griffons while stnading on pillars and there is fire below us." Stuff like that can add +2-4 to the CR of the encounter while making the enemies no more harder to kill. Obv you'd have to think of something different than what I posted, but weird stuff like this is how I make challenging encounters for my current party (they're lvl 12 defeating several CR17's now... so instead I just make the rules of the encounter harder)

[Cirrylius]

- can use Disguise to cast spells so other casters do not know if he is actually casting unless they suceed at Spot, thus illusions are super effective

1. That's a thing?
2. Shouldn't it be Bluff, instead?

[Fates]

1. That's a thing?
2. Shouldn't it be Bluff, instead?

I think there's a skill trick for it, that uses Sleight of Hand. I usually have my characters use SoH and Move Silently to mask somatic and verbal components, respectively.

But as to the original question, I think the problem is that your players are smart, but the NPCs aren't. Try to set up more tactical encounters for them, where the players and their enemies try to outsmart eachother at least as much as they try to overpower them.

[Harlot]

- can use Disguise to cast spells so other casters do not know if he is actually casting unless they suceed at Spot, thus illusions are super effective

Hmm, you haven't written what level they are at, but it does sound like he's got this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Disguise_Self)spell mixed up with this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Disguise_Spell) feat?

Normally, Disguise would make it harder to recognise him, but his movements etc., speech etc. would easily be recognised as spellcasting during combat, making smart enemies target him.

Or what am I missing?

[Balor01]

I miss-named the Skill. He can hide casting. Thats it.

may be one of these things:

Cloaked Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler's spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. You gain a +1 bonus to the spell's save DC when you cast a spell that targets any foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). At 8th level, you gain a +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target.

At 14th level, the bonus to your spell's save DC increases to +2. At 20th level, you become able to automatically overcome the spell resistance of any affected target.

Surprise Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you successfully use the Bluff skill to feint in combat, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC for the next melee attack you make against it or the next spell you cast. You must remain in melee with the target, and the attack must be made or the spell cast on or before your next turn. The target is not considered flat-footed and therefore can make attacks of opportunity against you if you do not cast defensively.

At 6th level, you gain the ability to feint in combat as a move action instead of a standard action. If you have the Improved Feint feat, you can now feint in combat as a swift action.

[ArcturusV]

It sounds like there's a few issues.

One, your enemies do have miserable luck and/or will save modifiers that even after the bonus for interacting with Illusions they cannot make the save.

Two, your enemies sound like they're following "MMO AI", where they just lock onto the first thing they see, the illusionary objects, then hammer away on them until they're dead.

But even if you have something with 1 Int and/or 1 Wis, they should be smarter than that. If an Illusion is sitting there "tanking" them, dealing no damage to them, while letting some guys go kill them. If a big scary thing isn't actually hurting them or something, but two guys ARE... they won't just ignore the illusion (Presuming they don't know it's an illusion) but they won't focus all their efforts on it either.

I mean, what would you do? Keep punching a tree while some axe murderer hobo kills you and your friends, or ignore the tree to go deal with the axe murderer in some fashion?

The other part is just having people play Defensive can really throw a wrench in the plans. From the sound of it, running into an enemy, like militaristic Hobgoblins, or pack hunter Gnolls, etc, who don't just rush into battle like an Orc Berserker but try to slow play, trap, and set up enemies before going in for the charge would almost completely destroy that plan. It'd go:

Beguiler: *ILLUSION*
Enemies: HOLD THE LINE!
Warblade: ... they aren't attacking the illusion, they're just sitting there on guard... what do I do?
Beguiler: Just go two shot them like normal?
Warblade: ... okay! *charges into battle, gets smacked down by an entire enemy force worth of readied actions/AoOs*

[Harlot]

may be one of these things:

Cloaked Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler's spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. You gain a +1 bonus to the spell's save DC when you cast a spell that targets any foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). At 8th level, you gain a +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target.

At 14th level, the bonus to your spell's save DC increases to +2. At 20th level, you become able to automatically overcome the spell resistance of any affected target.

Surprise Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you successfully use the Bluff skill to feint in combat, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC for the next melee attack you make against it or the next spell you cast. You must remain in melee with the target, and the attack must be made or the spell cast on or before your next turn. The target is not considered flat-footed and therefore can make attacks of opportunity against you if you do not cast defensively.

At 6th level, you gain the ability to feint in combat as a move action instead of a standard action. If you have the Improved Feint feat, you can now feint in combat as a swift action.

Hmm ...
You still havent told us which level he's at, but reading these: With neither of these feats does his casting in at by itself seem hidden to me?

Cloaked Casting does give him a bonus against flat footed opponents, but it's irrelevant once in open combat, and it would be obvious that he was casting.
Solution: Don't let the enemies be surprised. Give them higher listen/spot than the PC's.

Surprise Casting - this feat is for being in melee as a caster. The casting is still obvious, + at this point he is already in melee, a place where a caster does NOT want to be.

In these, I cannot see any evidence of hidden combat casting?

At least this is what I think. It really would help if you could point us to the right spell/feat in order for us to help you counter it.
+ what is his level???

[Balor01]

They are level six. But I actually misunderstood some stuff. Hiding the casting was used on a beguiler but in some other game, beguiler was played by same player tho.

[Harlot]

They are level six. But I actually misunderstood some stuff. Hiding the casting was used on a beguiler but in some other game, beguiler was played by same player tho.

Ok, that solved, back to square one: It's a common problem that the wizard is too powerful, and dealing with him is a challenge in and by itself. Just had a similar thread as this one - on even lower levels, I had serious problems with the wizard. You can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286736)

So what is his weakness? What are his stats?
In my current game the wizard is min/maxed, so his willpowersaves are laughable, giving clerics in particular a good time against him. If your beguiler is the same, you could try that.
If his dex is low, try forcing reflex saves (slopes, traps, earthquakes, collapsing bridges, grease, a heavy storm making trees fall down on top of them.
(A really good thing about challenging them using the terrain/circumstances of the area against them rather than traditional enemies is that it forces them to think out of the box, to use spells etc without them earning piles of XP bashing lowlife enemies.)

To what extent have you used other casters against him/them? A handful of invisible attackers (greater invisibility?) would defy the groups spotcheck and could ambush them easily. Attacks at night (enemies with nightvision or even better: blind) with the group having minus whatever to spotchecks.

And: absolutely agree with ArcturusV on pretty much wharever he just wrote ;-)