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Talakeal
2013-06-15, 01:38 PM
If the Game Master gives you OOC advice, is it cheating to follow it?

Imagine you were running an adventure (let's say a classic dungeon crawl) and at the end of the session you were going to call it a night ooc and return to town to seek your next adventure.

Then the DM said "Are you sure you don't want to continue on with this dungeon next session? You guys haven't explored it all and there is still a ton of XP and loot to be had, you might want to finish here before moving on."

Would you consider it cheating to follow the GM's advice and stay in the dungeon?



This came up in my game last week, and the party voted to continue with the dungeon this week. Last night in the middle of the session one of the players exploded, saying we shouldn't even be here and he felt like a dirty cheater for going against his earlier statements on OOC knowledge. He then gave standing orders that if I ever give the players advice again he will go out of his way to do the opposite, and if that means splitting the party so be it, even if it leads to a TPK or players sitting out for an entire gaming session. I was, confused to say the least, and I was wondering if anyone has had experiences with such a thing.

Rhynn
2013-06-15, 01:43 PM
If the Game Master gives you OOC advice, is it cheating to follow it?

Nope.

Also (not that you're saying this), metagaming is not cheating. Metagaming is playing the game, and is a necessary part of playing a game. A lot of people use it as shorthand for a specific kind of cheating (where you use OOC information to affect IC actions in a "wrong" way, instead of using OOC information to affect IC actions in a "right" way, which is perfectly fine by most people).

Your players continue to horrify me. :smallannoyed:

Belril Duskwalk
2013-06-15, 01:50 PM
If the Game Master gives you advice, there are a few distinct possibilities:
1. Ignoring that advice will cause the players to miss something that may significantly benefit the party
2. Ignoring that advice will significantly hinder or possibly KILL the party
3. Ignoring that advice has the potential to crush the GM's plot like an egg

Of those possibilities, two are undeniably bad things and the third is generally a bad thing unless the GM's plot is really that bad. If the GM is offering Out Of Character advice, he probably has a dang good reason. TAKE IT!

EDIT: If one of your characters is swearing to contradict your OOC advice, I suggest not including him when you deliver OOC advice.

Rhynn
2013-06-15, 01:58 PM
To elaborate, I often give my players similar advice, and they always take it and go along with it because it's a game. One example that comes to mind is that, running the 3.5 Expedition to Undermountain (a frankly pathetic adventure*), I had the problem that there were no actual maps provided for the dungeon, yet the maps that did exist had open passages out of described areas, with no real way to fill them up and no map. So when my players were about to take a wrong turn, I just gently suggested "uh, you can't really go that way, there's nothing in the module for it and I didn't prepare the entire first level of the largest dungeon ever published." They went the other way and were happy to do it, because they knew and understood I was running an adventure.

* Seriously, reducing the king of megadungeons into a 3E era "encounter-based" adventure with no actual dungeon exploring, with incomplete maps, is unforgivable. At least Ravenloft got a fully mapped castle!

Talakeal
2013-06-15, 02:00 PM
EDIT: If one of your characters is swearing to contradict your OOC advice, I suggest not including him when you deliver OOC advice.

Not quite. He said that if another player acted on metagame advice, he would likewise act on metagame advice, only in the opposite manner so as to balance out their "cheating".

So if I say "You should really leave the sleeping dragon alone," he will go out of his way to attack the sleeping dragon, even if he would normally ignore it.

As far as I can tell it is a sort of two wrong make a right logic combined with being spiteful to "punish" the other players (and the DM, and himself) for behavior he considers cheating. Hopefully there is something more to it that I am missing however.

jindra34
2013-06-15, 02:07 PM
I'd hope there is something missing too. Because if you consider pausing to confirm a risky action to be 'cheating' and metagaming (its the second to a minor degree) because of words the GM says, how is acting on any information the GM gives you not 'cheating' and metagaming.

Another_Poet
2013-06-15, 02:11 PM
the DM said "Are you sure you don't want to continue on with this dungeon next session? You guys haven't explored it all and there is still a ton of XP and loot to be had, you might want to finish here before moving on."

Would you consider it cheating to follow the GM's advice and stay in the dungeon?

No; however, in most cases a GM shouldn't give that kind of advice.

There are exceptions, such as:


You think the players have simply forgotten something (that their characters would know), e.g. "Not gonna explore that room with the weird fountain that you saw?"
Their choice creates a GM snag and you're asking for their mercy, e.g. "Sure guys, but I thought we'd be doing this dungeon tonight. If you pull out now I'm going to need time to plan."
Your players are new/inexperienced.


In most groups, the players want to discover things on their own - not be told where to look, or where not to.


Last night in the middle of the session one of the players exploded, saying we shouldn't even be here and he felt like a dirty cheater for going against his earlier statements on OOC knowledge. He then gave standing orders that if I ever give the players advice again he will go out of his way to do the opposite...

You need to talk to him out of game. First, apologize; you gave them metagame information and you shouldn't have. Then tell him his reaction was inappropriate and next time he has beef, he needs to talk to you directly and calmly.

Rhynn
2013-06-15, 02:17 PM
No; however, in most cases a GM shouldn't give that kind of advice.

Time-management advice? Absolutely they should. If you've gone through the trouble to create a big dungeon and the players try to quit halfway through for no reason other than thinking they're through*, in a lot of cases, you're going to want to not waste that work, so it's perfectly legit to suggest "hey, there's more of it!"

* What kind of lazy-ass modern players don't explore every dungeon as thoroughly as they can survive doing? Were they even drawing their own map?!


First, apologize; you gave them metagame information and you shouldn't have.

Forget that noise. "Shouldn't have"? Nonsense.

Slipperychicken
2013-06-15, 02:57 PM
I think it's okay. The DM is giving you advice so you get to have more fun, and so his work preparing the dungeon isn't wasted.

In a case like this, it's metagaming and might break immersion, but the continued dungeon exploration would most likely be worth it for me. You could handwave the decision by saying it's intuition or experience.

The Grue
2013-06-15, 03:16 PM
Last night in the middle of the session one of the players exploded, saying we shouldn't even be here and he felt like a dirty cheater for going against his earlier statements on OOC knowledge. He then gave standing orders that if I ever give the players advice again he will go out of his way to do the opposite, and if that means splitting the party so be it, even if it leads to a TPK or players sitting out for an entire gaming session.

Honestly? Your player sounds like he's ten years old. If he's issued an ultimatum that unless things go his way he's perfectly willing to crash the game for everybody else, then he needs to get the boot.

Talk to him out of game and check with him that this is actually what he meant to say, because it probably isn't and his reaction was completely inappropriate. Either you call him on it and he apologizes, and then the two of you work out your differences like adults, or you call him on it and he refuses to back down in which case you need to ask yourself whether you want a player who throws tantrums.

Alex12
2013-06-15, 03:45 PM
Personally, I just figure if the DM okays it, it's not cheating. Or if it is, it's cheating that's permissible.

The goal of the game is fun, and if the DM says that there's more dungeon to go, then it only makes sense to clear out that dungeon before spending the time to find leads and whatever for another dungeon. Plus, it's easier on the DM, who then didn't waste all that work, and doesn't have to come up with a new dungeon for next session.

Barsoom
2013-06-15, 04:02 PM
Last night in the middle of the session one of the players exploded, saying we shouldn't even be here and he felt like a dirty cheater for going against his earlier statements on OOC knowledge. He then gave standing orders that if I ever give the players advice again he will go out of his way to do the opposite, and if that means splitting the party so be it, even if it leads to a TPK or players sitting out for an entire gaming session.This sounds extreme, not to mention outright hostile. If I was the DM, I wouldn't want to DM for someone with this attitude.

snoopy13a
2013-06-15, 05:44 PM
There is implicit metagaming in every roleplaying game. Specifically, the social contract that exists between the players and GM in that the players will only have "level appropriate encounters" as long as the players conform to certain game norms. This metagaming social contract is a cornerstone of the RPG experience.

In actuality, a group of level 1 characters could be attacked and eaten by a red dragon--just as hapless NPC commoners often are. Instead, however, the GM tailors the game so that players will normally win, because that is fun. However, this is metagaming, and you should point this out to that player. If he still is arguing over this point, you can always have a random red dragon eat him.

ClockShock
2013-06-15, 06:02 PM
You could change all OOC advice into IC advice. That's what gods are for, right?

Cheiromancer
2013-06-15, 06:21 PM
you can always have a random red dragon eat him.

Problem solved! :smalltongue:

Sutremaine
2013-06-15, 06:44 PM
Plus, it's easier on the DM, who then didn't waste all that work, and doesn't have to come up with a new dungeon for next session.
Why not just reskin the parts the players didn't explore in the last dungeon? They're not going to know.

Talakeal
2013-06-15, 06:50 PM
Why not just reskin the parts the players didn't explore in the last dungeon? They're not going to know.

In this particular case It was actually a bit more complex than the dungeon scenario, I just wanted to ask the question without telling a gaming story.

Long story short, they provoked a group of enemies but didn't actually deal with them, and I explained that if they dropped the plot line half way through they were going to be responsible for a horde of pissed off bad guys pillaging the countryside.

TuggyNE
2013-06-15, 07:05 PM
Yeah, this is, quite simply, an acceptable bit of metagaming, and arguably almost necessary. Thoughtless attempts at roleplaying "purity" will only result in disaster and chaos.

Of course, knowing a bit about your players, that might be the intent. :smallannoyed:

erikun
2013-06-15, 07:37 PM
Long story short, they provoked a group of enemies but didn't actually deal with them, and I explained that if they dropped the plot line half way through they were going to be responsible for a horde of pissed off bad guys pillaging the countryside.
This sounds like a perfectly reasonable comment for a GM to make. The characters should obviously know that they annoyed a large group of enemies, that they didn't deal with said group, and that the group is large enough to cause problems throughout the country.

As long as you left it at that, and didn't try to force the issue any more, then it would be fine. It was entirely up to the players at that point if they wanted to leave the (obviously unfinished) job and face the consequences, or finish things up. It's not your fault that the players made the most obvious choice.


As for your player, it's hard to say what his reasoning is. My best guess is that he's from the player-vs-GM mentality, and so finds any GM assistance to be "cheating" at that role. Or, possibly more likely, he didn't like the dungeon and was venting about the party choosing to return to it.

The only advice I can give is to ask what was wrong and what he would have preferred to happen, and decide what/if you want to change because of that. (Asking others what they thought would be good, as well.) I haven't read the other threads about your gaming group, though, so I don't know if this approach has been tried yet or not.

Jay R
2013-06-15, 07:39 PM
In any game with a referee, if you are unsure whether a given action is cheating, ask the referee. I specifically disallow mete-knowledge is some games, and specifically allow it in others.

Hints from the DM have by definition been approved by the referee.

Your problem is that one player does not accept the DM as the final arbiter of the rules of the game. This will eventually cause trouble in some area, even if you solve the meta-knowledge issue.

Another_Poet
2013-06-15, 11:52 PM
Your problem is that one player does not accept the DM as the final arbiter of the rules of the game. This will eventually cause trouble in some area, even if you solve the meta-knowledge issue.

Well said.

Mr Beer
2013-06-16, 12:15 AM
This came up in my game last week, and the party voted to continue with the dungeon this week. Last night in the middle of the session one of the players exploded, saying we shouldn't even be here and he felt like a dirty cheater for going against his earlier statements on OOC knowledge. He then gave standing orders that if I ever give the players advice again he will go out of his way to do the opposite, and if that means splitting the party so be it, even if it leads to a TPK or players sitting out for an entire gaming session. I was, confused to say the least, and I was wondering if anyone has had experiences with such a thing.

This issue has nothing to do with OOC rights and wrongs, what's worth discussing here is why the player thinks it's OK to behave like a mental case, flipping out over nothing and barking orders at you.

I'd either have a talk with him and try to find out what's really bothering him (mature way) or simply give some OOC advice the very next session and make the outcome of ignoring it = his character probably gets killed (not so mature).

EDIT

Thinking about it, I would just say "If I feel like giving OOC advice is going to make for a better game, that's what I'm going to do. If you're not happy knowing that this will happen again, rather than trashing the session for everyone else, it's better that you simply don't play."

tasw
2013-06-16, 12:27 AM
take the whiny player aside and tell him to get with the program or find a different group.

kicking back to the internet curb faster would help the whole hobby

Thrudd
2013-06-16, 12:46 AM
In this particular case It was actually a bit more complex than the dungeon scenario, I just wanted to ask the question without telling a gaming story.

Long story short, they provoked a group of enemies but didn't actually deal with them, and I explained that if they dropped the plot line half way through they were going to be responsible for a horde of pissed off bad guys pillaging the countryside.

A horde of bad guys pillaging the countryside sounds like fun for the DM. more reasons for fighting and adventures. :) Sometimes you have to roll with the punches. It is annoying when the players don't follow your carefully planned adventure, but it is a good idea not to plan too specifically, and have a few reserve ideas, so that their choices don't end the session prematurely. I try to conceive of a few possible directions they might go (either literal directions or choices in general) at any point, and have at least an idea of what is in that direction. As someone else said, if they missed a part of a dungeon, maybe retool it to fit into a different area, or have some in-game reason for them to go back there. For possible world-altering bad choices...why not let the world go to sh** because of them? I see no problem with a lack of foresight on the players' part resulting in miserable circumstances for them and everyone else in the world later on. That is part of the fun, letting the world and story be shaped interactively by the players' actions.
Of course, if it is something that the players have no way of knowing, but their characters reasonably would, then reveal the info through in-game knowledge/intelligence checks with really easy DC's.
I don't entirely agree with your player insisting on no OOC info, you're the DM, afterall, and his attitude seems obstructionist. But there are ways to get around giving information OOC. If you want to keep playing with him and the game going smoothly, a talk might be in order. Barring that, or if there is no agreement made to keep him from his obstructionist plans, you might need to use some of these tactics to give info to the players IC so you can keep the game going without conflict.

Rhynn
2013-06-16, 01:32 AM
A horde of bad guys pillaging the countryside sounds like fun for the DM. more reasons for fighting and adventures. :)

Yeah, I probably wouldn't have given the advice Talakeal did (the PCs could have been drawn back into the dungeon naturally later), but that's pretty irrelevant to the actual question and the real issue (horrible player/s).

Edit. Y'know, I really hope it's always the same guy. It would make me feel better, somehow...

Sidmen
2013-06-16, 07:40 AM
For your specific situation, if you don't want to deal with your childish player, you could insert a GM-surrogate character. Name him the Starchild, have him glow faintly silver-white and appear at random to give advice and quest info.

Alternatively, you could ask someone to make an Intelligence or Wisdom check and give them "common sense" or "logical conclusion" knowledge on a DC 10 success.

valadil
2013-06-16, 08:11 AM
That player is being a tool. Part of tabletop play is coming up with in character reasons to act in a way that satisfies the metagame. Joining and sticking with the group, following plot hooks, etc. You find reasons to do these things because it makes the game run smoother.

tasw
2013-06-16, 11:48 AM
This is definitely a bad player issue.

Odds are it wasnt even OOC. If they're in a dungeon and theres more of it left then there has to have been doors they didnt open, hallways they didnt go down, etc etc. Reminding them of that is not OOC.

BWR
2013-06-16, 03:24 PM
Reminding players of information that their characters know is not metagaming, it's good DMing.
Asking players if they intend to do something else before they have finished what they are doing is good DMing.
Hinting, or even directly stating, that you have put time and effort into planning this dungeon and could they please finish it (getting good rewards) before going on to something new is a perfectly reasonable request, so long as the players are ok with it. If the players think the current dungeon/adventure is horrible and boring, a decent DM should not force them to see it through.

One player throwing a temper tantrum because he doesn't understand the difference between a DM making sure everyone is on the same page and cheating (how the hell is this supposed to be metagaming?) is a player who needs his head slapped.
Threatening to intentionally sabotage the group and the adventure for his own petty ego is childish and ruins everybody's fun.

RPGs are a group effort and everybody has to play along. This player is basically saying that his absolute autonomy regarding his character's actions is more important than everyone else in the game, DM included.

Talakeal
2013-06-17, 01:42 PM
Edit. Y'know, I really hope it's always the same guy. It would make me feel better, somehow...


These days about ninety percent of it is. We have had worse players in the best, but they have since left the group, but it seems like the quality of the remaining players has been slowly degenerating.

The player in question bitches about EVERYTHING that goes wrong, and throws a major temper tantrum every few session. I tried talking to him about it, and he claims that he has had "zero fun" in the game since I implemented a house rule limiting buffs a few months back (see my recent thread about the advantages of flight) and as a result there is "absolutely nothing" he enjoys about the game, so all the bad things stand out that much more, and he admits that he has ben going out of his way to sabotage the game to teach us a lesson.

I tried to explain logically why the house rule was necessary and how I could play to get around it, but that just resulted in him yelling insults at me and then giving me the silent treatment.

At this point I am convinced I can't make him happy, and am ready to cut him loose, but at this point in time I don't think I can do that without damage to both the rest of the gaming group and my property.

Lord Torath
2013-06-17, 01:50 PM
Lots of good advice here. Definitely talk to the guy out of character, and discuss his reaction and his expectations. Get his side of the story, and make certain he knows you understand where he is coming from (even if you don;t agree with him, you still understand his point of view). Discuss your actions, and your expectations of behavior from your players. Let him know that sort of behavior is unacceptable, and if he does it again, he'll be sitting out the rest of the session.

Do you guys have any kind of "manifesto"? If so, review that both with this guy, and the rest of the group. If you don't have one, consider putting one together.

As the DM, you are the final authority on your game, and as others have said, unless he understands and accepts that, there will be further problems.

Best of luck to you!

Edit: Any temper tantrum should be cause for missing the rest of the session, at the very least. Unless your players are 4 or 5, they should know better. And if they are 4 or 5, now's a great time to start teaching them that tantrums are not the way to get others to see your point of view.

Talakeal
2013-06-17, 01:58 PM
Edit: Any temper tantrum should be cause for missing the rest of the session, at the very least. Unless your players are 4 or 5, they should know better. And if they are 4 or 5, now's a great time to start teaching them that tantrums are not the way to get others to see your point of view.

Actually, a lot of temper tantrums ARE missing the rest of the sessions. His usual MO is simply getting up and walking away from the table mid encounter and then going in his room, shutting the door, and not coming out or responding to anyone who calls or knocks for the rest of the evening. Not as disruptive as it could be (say flipping the table or putting another player in the hospital), but it is kind of hard to continue the game when one of the PCs suddenly disappears mid adventure, let alone encounter, and puts everyone else, myself included, on edge.

Big Fau
2013-06-17, 02:01 PM
Not quite. He said that if another player acted on metagame advice, he would likewise act on metagame advice, only in the opposite manner so as to balance out their "cheating".

So if I say "You should really leave the sleeping dragon alone," he will go out of his way to attack the sleeping dragon, even if he would normally ignore it.

As far as I can tell it is a sort of two wrong make a right logic combined with being spiteful to "punish" the other players (and the DM, and himself) for behavior he considers cheating. Hopefully there is something more to it that I am missing however.

That sort of logical fallacy is one of the most frustrating.

It's like when a video game asks you to save, and he's intentionally deleting his own save files every time someone else in the party saves when the game prompts them to.

Lord Torath
2013-06-17, 02:06 PM
Actually, a lot of temper tantrums ARE missing the rest of the sessions. His usual MO is simply getting up and walking away from the table mid encounter and then going in his room, shutting the door, and not coming out or responding to anyone who calls or knocks for the rest of the evening. Not as disruptive as it could be (say flipping the table or putting another player in the hospital), but it is kind of hard to continue the game when one of the PCs suddenly disappears mid adventure, let alone encounter, and puts everyone else, myself included, on edge.
Okay, maybe you need to extend it to missing the next session as well. Actually, it really sounds like you just need to cut this one loose. I mean, even Trekkin said he was still having fun at his sessions (if for all the wrong reasons). If this guy is having such a rough time, I think it might be in everyone's best interest (Including his) to set him free.

Barsoom
2013-06-17, 03:16 PM
Actually, a lot of temper tantrums ARE missing the rest of the sessions. His usual MO is simply getting up and walking away from the table mid encounter and then going in his room, shutting the door, and not coming out or responding to anyone who calls or knocks for the rest of the evening. Not as disruptive as it could be (say flipping the table or putting another player in the hospital), but it is kind of hard to continue the game when one of the PCs suddenly disappears mid adventure, let alone encounter, and puts everyone else, myself included, on edge.This person does not need to be in your playgroup. You do not need this person in your playgroup. None of you needs each other. By keeping him as a player, you are doing great disservice to both him and yourself - and the other players, of course.

Kelb_Panthera
2013-06-17, 04:39 PM
I'm known in the circles I travel in, IRL, for my patience with difficult people.

You're a more patient man* than I.

How have you not set this person on fire yet? The person, not his character.

I may also be known in my circles for my rather violent disposition.

*I'm assuming. Replace with woman if more appropriate.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-06-17, 05:15 PM
At this point I am convinced I can't make him happy, and am ready to cut him loose, but at this point in time I don't think I can do that without both the rest of the gaming group and my property.
This part sounds like the underlying issue. It sounds like he's generally disruptive, and probably is as aggravating to the rest of the group as he is to you. Why don't you think you can go on without him?



On the subject of metagaming-verses-hints, you can cover yourself by calling for a Wisdom (or equivalent stat) check. "16? You remember that there was a whole wing of the castle you didn't enter."

Sidmen
2013-06-17, 05:51 PM
This part sounds like the underlying issue. It sounds like he's generally disruptive, and probably is as aggravating to the rest of the group as he is to you. Why don't you think you can go on without him?

I suspect the trouble player either hosts the game, or the host of the game is the roommate of the trouble player - from the description of the trouble player sulking off to his room for the rest of the evening.

Talakeal
2013-06-17, 06:01 PM
Why don't you think you can go on without him?

In short:

He is the tenant of the person who is hosting the game, so he will be present whether he is invited or not.

I store my multi thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies / books / and models at said house and said player has a history if stealing or damaging property to get back at its owner.

I am playtesting my home brew system which I someday hope to publish, and he is the only player who has a head for the "crunch" aspects of the game.

And lastly, we have already lost two players recently. If we kick him down we will be down to 3 PCs, one of whom is a problem player herself with very poor attendance, which means 2 PCs most of the time, and that is too small a party for my comfort zone.

Friv
2013-06-17, 06:24 PM
I was going to say "your player is insane", which has sort of become my go-to response for threads that you start (sorry about that!)

I'm not going to, though, because after reading the whole thread, your player is not insane. Your player is a [redacted] manchild who doesn't deserve another moment of your time or of the time of anyone else around you. I mean, wow. Wow. Wow. A history of damaging or stealing property, for any reason? Wow. For revenge? Wow. Wow.

You need to remove your things from your friend's house, say that you're going to run a session at your apartment next week, and then never, ever let this guy anywhere near you. To hell with the group. You can find more players, or run a game with two and a half people. We'll give you advice. Lots of advice.

You do not want to be the next Lanky, man.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-06-17, 07:07 PM
I was going to say "your player is insane", which has sort of become my go-to response for threads that you start (sorry about that!)

I'm not going to, though, because after reading the whole thread, your player is not insane. Your player is a [redacted] manchild who doesn't deserve another moment of your time or of the time of anyone else around you. I mean, wow. Wow. Wow. A history of damaging or stealing property, for any reason? Wow. For revenge? Wow. Wow.

You need to remove your things from your friend's house, say that you're going to run a session at your apartment next week, and then never, ever let this guy anywhere near you. To hell with the group. You can find more players, or run a game with two and a half people. We'll give you advice. Lots of advice.
Pretty much this. Get your property out of there ASAP, change the location, and inform the guy that he's not welcome back until he cleans up his act.

Mr Beer
2013-06-17, 10:15 PM
You cannot have a mental case like this in your group and you cannot allow him to be a threat to your personal property just because he thinks it's OK to be a criminal.

You need to:

1. Remove your possessions away from his reach.
2. Move the game to another venue.
3. Do not extend an invitation to him and/or tell him he's not welcome.

You may have to shut down the game temporarily or even permanently to get this done but you've got a guy playing now who hates your game and admits he goes out of his way to trash it for everyone else.

That game can never be enjoyable and you don't want to do anything about it in case he steals or breaks your stuff.

That's beyond ridiculous and you need to deal with this like a man. It's not a gaming issue, it's a real life problem.

Thrudd
2013-06-17, 11:43 PM
In short:

He is the tenant of the person who is hosting the game, so he will be present whether he is invited or not.

I store my multi thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies / books / and models at said house and said player has a history if stealing or damaging property to get back at its owner.

I am playtesting my home brew system which I someday hope to publish, and he is the only player who has a head for the "crunch" aspects of the game.

And lastly, we have already lost two players recently. If we kick him down we will be down to 3 PCs, one of whom is a problem player herself with very poor attendance, which means 2 PCs most of the time, and that is too small a party for my comfort zone.

I know it is hard to deal with someone like that, but it sounds like this person needs some good friends. Even jerks need people. Circumstances being what they are, you have been thrown in with him, for better or worse. It's an opportunity. Love and kindness and patience are what's required. I would recommend not responding to anger and frustration with more of the same, it won't help anybody. Your relationship already being established, it may be hard to change now, but I think holding the right intent can make a difference. I once played with a guy who would get frustrated to the point that he would chuck his dice across the room when a roll didn't go his way, and was known to storm off more than once as well. As a DM he was a terror, with serious control issues (a reflection of his behavior in everyday life). Understandably, this person didn't have a lot of friends. The gaming group was about all the socialization that existed for him outside of work. As frustrating as it was, I and the others in the group slowly worked on him, being easy-going and laughing, getting him to loosen up a little. I can't say he changed completely, or even that we had a permanent impact on him, but he did seem to have more fun eventually. There was less throwing of dice at the end of our time together than at the beginning.
So I would say, keep at it, with patience and kindness. You don't need to tolerate abusive behavior, but don't give back abuse and anger when it is thrown out there. I don't think his anger is really directed at you or the other players, it's about him. If the group falls apart, so be it. While it's there, you can make a difference.

SowZ
2013-06-17, 11:52 PM
Ever heard the advice that it's better to be single than in a bad relationship? Same principle here. A tame game with few too players might not be a great experience, but it won't be a bad experience. As for crunch, you are well known enough here that when you get far enough in your game I'm sure you could find a couple playtesters at the playground with just as good a head for math.

Mr Beer
2013-06-18, 01:33 AM
I know it is hard to deal with someone like that, but it sounds like this person needs some good friends. Even jerks need people. Circumstances being what they are, you have been thrown in with him, for better or worse. It's an opportunity. Love and kindness and patience are what's required.

This advice would be useful if this was Social Working.net or Community Councilling.com. As advice for dealing with someone in an RPG who openly admits to hating the game and of going out of his way to disrupt it for everyone else and who, on top of that, is a known vandal and thief...it's laughable.

Slipperychicken
2013-06-18, 02:56 AM
This advice would be useful if this was Social Working.net or Community Councilling.com. As advice for dealing with someone in an RPG who openly admits to hating the game and of going out of his way to disrupt it for everyone else and who, on top of that, is a known vandal and thief...it's laughable.

Yeah, this guy can get his friends, love, and kindness without ruining your gaming nights. Maybe he can take it as a wake-up call and find a psychiatrist.

I've played in games with just two PCs, and I've never had a problem with that size. It means more play-time and faster combats. I'd rather game with a small group (2-4 players) than a big one (6+).

Barsoom
2013-06-18, 03:05 AM
In short:

He is the tenant of the person who is hosting the game, so he will be present whether he is invited or not.

I store my multi thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies / books / and models at said house and said player has a history if stealing or damaging property to get back at its owner.

I am playtesting my home brew system which I someday hope to publish, and he is the only player who has a head for the "crunch" aspects of the game.

And lastly, we have already lost two players recently. If we kick him down we will be down to 3 PCs, one of whom is a problem player herself with very poor attendance, which means 2 PCs most of the time, and that is too small a party for my comfort zone.None of those are compelling reasons to tolerate a sociopath in your company.

He's a tenant, not the owner of the house. He doesn't have to be in the room in which you play. Or, just host the game elsewhere.

Your collection? Keeping it within his reach was not a good idea to begin with. Now is a good chance to fix this.

Crunchy bits? Too few PCs? Look for other players. Try meetup.com, it does wonders. Or, failing at that, just play with 2 PCs. From experience, two good players are better than 2 good players plus one bad player, and comfort zone be damned.

In short, you can work around all the problems, except your player's personality issues. Those are between him and his shrink.

Rhynn
2013-06-18, 03:17 AM
Yeah, this guy can get his friends, love, and kindness without ruining your gaming nights. Maybe he can take it as a wake-up call and find a psychiatrist.

Seriously. It is not anybody's responsibility to be a friend to a jackass (to put it mildly).


I know it is hard to deal with someone like that, but it sounds like this person needs some good friends. Even jerks need people.

It's the jerk's responsibility to act in a way that other people can be around them.

Also, Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html). #1, #2, and #3.


I've played in games with just two PCs, and I've never had a problem with that size. It means more play-time and faster combats. I'd rather game with a small group (2-4 players) than a big one (6+).

My group was 2 players and me for years, and then got up to 3 players and me.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2013-06-18, 03:43 AM
I can't stand the preposterous extent to which some players try to avoid metagaming and/or condemn others who do not go to similarly ridiculous extremes; it's basically what happens when That Guy is also really self-righteous about derailing the game with his or her inane nonsense. I've become so sick of it that, while I can't avoid them derailing the game with some half-hour tangent about how we should or should not follow the plot instead of deciding to just become caravan guards, I base all my character concepts around at least avoiding their scorn by creating characters who will always, always want to follow the plot, in-character. Given all that, this thread has actually be pretty therapeutic; as annoyed as I am by the people I'm playing with who do this sort of thing, it could be a lot worse, which is some kind of dismal consolation, I guess. I'm sorry you have to deal with it, though.

Thrawn4
2013-06-18, 04:07 AM
I could be wrong, but I think you should get rid of him in order to preserve the fun for you and your remaining players. Purposely ruining the game for everyone, getting hissy fits and potentially stealing are not issues that you could solve by ignoring it. This person will only ruin the fun of you and your players.
Is there another location where you could store your stuff and play?
And why does this person have access to the rooms of your host? Is it a living community?

Scow2
2013-06-18, 02:04 PM
The guy's already said he's not having fun in your game. Ask him why he's still playing, then.

Also - either get your stuff out of there, or come to an agreement with the Tennant to restrain the guy. Vandalism and theft are felonies.

Deophaun
2013-06-18, 03:29 PM
First, agreeing that the player needs to be kicked to the curb and you need to get your stuff away from him ASAP. Acting like a spoiled brat is bad enough. The vandalism puts this into crisis mode. Get. Out.

Reminding players of information that their characters know is not metagaming, it's good DMing.
I want to highlight this. A lot of times, what the DM says and what the playerss hear are two completely different things. It's fair to present things in plain, metagame language when the "obvious" signs to the characters are going over the players' heads. The characters are not confused by your description of the pattern on the tapestries hanging in the mage's study; they're looking at those tapestries, after all. The characters didn't ignore the drag marks in the floor; they're the ones who rolled high on the spot check and noticed them as something of interest. These things the players missed. These problems exist in the metagame, so it's fine to address them in the metagame.

Ideally, yes, you want the players to play the game and not require hand-holding. And some DM's refuse to give the players any break along these lines whatsoever. It's perfectly fine to play that way. But, it's equally acceptable to translate IC for OOC when you feel doing so will improve the game.

Mr Beer
2013-06-18, 05:31 PM
None of those are compelling reasons to tolerate a sociopath in your company.

To me, this is the key issue. Someone who doesn't want to be there and so actively disrupts the game has issues. Someone whose MO is to vandalise and steal other people's possessions to punish them for some perceived slight...well "sociopath" is a decent working definition. You don't want to spend any time at all hanging around sociopaths without a compelling reason. A game of D&D is not a good enough reason.

SowZ
2013-06-18, 06:04 PM
Let me also say you won't be able to attract new players, who will increase your numbers and are likely to be adjusted members of society, as long as this guy is around.

The Grue
2013-06-18, 06:13 PM
In short:

He is the tenant of the person who is hosting the game, so he will be present whether he is invited or not.

I store my multi thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies / books / and models at said house and said player has a history if stealing or damaging property to get back at its owner.


Easy solution to this one. Are you and the host acquaintances, or super chill brosefs? And did said tenant pay a damage deposit? And how comfortable is the host with exercising the authority he possesses as the landlord half of a landlord-tenant relationship?

TuggyNE
2013-06-18, 06:16 PM
To me, this is the key issue. Someone who doesn't want to be there and so actively disrupts the game has issues. Someone whose MO is to vandalise and steal other people's possessions to punish them for some perceived slight...well "sociopath" is a decent working definition. You don't want to spend any time at all hanging around sociopaths without a compelling reason. A game of D&D is not a good enough reason.

I have to agree with this general sentiment. Wanting to help someone who is seriously troubled, has few or no friends, and so on is admirable, and if you can manage it is great, but don't sacrifice your other friends, possessions, and so on to their destructive whims. Set boundaries for yourself and them; don't just let them rampage over anything of yours, but limit the scope.

It's a tough balance to manage, but living in fear of someone you're nominally friends with is not how to do it.

The Fury
2013-06-18, 09:53 PM
Speaking very generally, if the DM offered the advice then it's not cheating to act on it whether it's metagame or not. The reason it's not cheating is because the DM is the one who says what's cheating and what isn't.
Also, if a player responds to the advice with, "Is there any reason why my character would know that?" and the DM answers with an honest "No," then it's perfectly reasonable for the player to not act on the advice.

Having said that, this player might have some other issues that I don't think I'm qualified to comment on.

Dethklok
2013-06-18, 10:58 PM
Time-management advice? Absolutely they should. If you've gone through the trouble to create a big dungeon and the players try to quit halfway through for no reason other than thinking they're through, in a lot of cases, you're going to want to not waste that work, so it's perfectly legit to suggest "hey, there's more of it!"

Forget that noise. "Shouldn't have"? Nonsense.
Noise? Rhynn, there is a much better way of giving such advice then "Comeon guys, I worked hard on this!" When I'm frustrated by stupid decisions Players make* I have them make an Intelligence roll; success gives GM advice in the form of "it occurs to your character that..." This isn't just my own GMing style; having been on the receiving end of the admonition to make an Intelligence roll, I can say I definitely prefer it to out-of-game hints about what my character should do.

* OK, it's true, when players make stupid decisions, as often as not it's the GM's fault. If the GM were clearer with them about giving the information about the scene or setting that they needed, they would be much more likely to make decisions that meshed with the world their characters live in.

mjlush
2013-06-19, 02:14 AM
Would you consider it cheating to follow the GM's advice and stay in the dungeon?


Your player is an idiot and kind of selfish to boot.

There is an inherent cost in running a dungeon, either you have to spend your hard earned cash buying the module and copious free time to familiarize yourself with it. Or worse spend a lot of your free time writing it your self.

If you have another sessions worth of material (all else being equal) your well within your rights to ask to use it.

Thrudd
2013-06-19, 03:44 AM
This advice would be useful if this was Social Working.net or Community Councilling.com. As advice for dealing with someone in an RPG who openly admits to hating the game and of going out of his way to disrupt it for everyone else and who, on top of that, is a known vandal and thief...it's laughable.

Sorry. I thought playing RPG's was something you do with friends. It's a social activity where people get to know each other and have fun. People and relationships are more important than anything that happens in the game. Sometimes hosting a game and gathering people together means dealing with social and emotional issues. You shouldn't tolerate someone who hurts you or threatens to hurt you, or ruins everyone's fun all the time. But if you're determined or forced to interact with them, there are ways to deal with it in a constructive manner.

TuggyNE
2013-06-19, 04:07 AM
Sorry. I thought playing RPG's was something you do with friends.

Sarcasm noted, and failed; it's something you do with friends, but only some friends; not all friends make RPGs fun, or have fun with them! Nor are you obligated to play with someone who has fun by ruining yours, friend or otherwise.


It's a social activity where people get to know each other and have fun. People and relationships are more important than anything that happens in the game. Sometimes hosting a game and gathering people together means dealing with social and emotional issues. You shouldn't tolerate someone who hurts you or threatens to hurt you, or ruins everyone's fun all the time.

Yeah. Dealing with incidental issues is something you have to get used to, but someone with a whole host of serious problems requires considerable thought and preparation to figure out good things to do with them. And indulging or triggering someone's destructive impulses is not generally very productive, so picking something else to do that is less problematic may very well be necessary.

Sith_Happens
2013-06-19, 07:17 AM
Sorry. I thought playing RPG's was something you do with friends.

As opposed to the people Talakiel has been playing with, or at least one of them.

Kish
2013-06-19, 07:35 AM
Why on earth are you storing your multi-thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies, books, and models within reach of someone you know to be a vandal and a thief?

The rest is aside; he could be your best friend and the best player you have, and I'd still be looking at that aspect and going, "So...you don't actually like having a multi-thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies, then?"

mcbobbo
2013-06-19, 01:40 PM
As the others have said, use a check and keep on keeping on. Delivery helps, too -"It occurs to your character that..."

I empathize with your reluctance to confront your troublemaker. Been there, done that. But do take the advice in small doses, if you can. Maybe you don't take all of your books into witness protection with you right away. Maybe you start by setting reasonable limits and work on establishing more authority. Not that the 'run away now and run away fast' advice is bad by any means. It just might be uncomfortable to implement so broad an action. Like dieting. Successful people effect a lifestyle change. Throwing away all your snacks tonight might wind up being counterproductive.

neriana
2013-06-19, 01:57 PM
This is an extremely dangerous situation. I think you need to not only move your property from this house, but have your gaming sessions elsewhere. If you can't find another place (preferably a public place), I think you should cancel them. Safety has to come first.

I also think you should consult an expert in managing this kind of volatile, dangerous person. Maybe the police department could give you some advice. This is way beyond gaming and the capabilities of random people posting on a webcomic board. I think The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker would be useful to you.

Thrudd
2013-06-19, 07:22 PM
Sarcasm noted, and failed; it's something you do with friends, but only some friends; not all friends make RPGs fun, or have fun with them! Nor are you obligated to play with someone who has fun by ruining yours, friend or otherwise.



Yeah. Dealing with incidental issues is something you have to get used to, but someone with a whole host of serious problems requires considerable thought and preparation to figure out good things to do with them. And indulging or triggering someone's destructive impulses is not generally very productive, so picking something else to do that is less problematic may very well be necessary.

True. It is possible that gaming, at least D&D, is too much of a trigger for said person. It really all depends on details we really don't have here on the forum. Without true personal knowledge of the people and the situation, all of us are just throwing generic advice out there. My advice of thinking of ways to help and deal with the person is just as valid as advice to immediately get out of there and not looking back. The advice seeker, of course, is the only one who can decide what his situation truly warrants.

Mr Beer
2013-06-19, 07:58 PM
Sorry. I thought playing RPG's was something you do with friends. It's a social activity where people get to know each other and have fun.

Is it really? Tell me more of these things you hu-mans call "RPGs" or "RPG's" if you insist. It's fascinating to have such concepts explained to me, allow me to return the favour:

Key word: "friend".

You see, in the society I come from, one obviously far removed from your own, a "friend" is someone who respects your mutual endeavours or avoids joining in with them. It's not someone who a) hates this thing you are all doing together b) actively and openly tries to disrupt everyone's enjoyment of the shared activity and c) is a likely threat to one's possessions if forcibly excluded from said activity.

Mutual respect is the key to what we called "friendship", as I said, obviously it's defined differently in the strange society that you live in.

Tengu_temp
2013-06-20, 06:18 AM
I store my multi thousand dollar collection of gaming supplies / books / and models at said house and said player has a history if stealing or damaging property to get back at its owner.


I think this passed the point of "why is this guy still in your group?" and entered the domain of "why weren't the cops called yet?".

kamikasei
2013-06-20, 07:57 AM
OOC prompting like that is something that's totally fine for some groups and doesn't work for others; my RL group doesn't mind our DM saying "so I have this and that planned for the next few sessions" so that we don't run off on a completely unexpected tangent and invalidate the material and scheduling he had ready, but other groups may prefer a free-wheeling, unguided approach. In no case does it constitute "cheating", and putting it in those terms is a big warning sign that the player's attitude towards the game may cause trouble.

I second all the foregoing advice to a) get your stuff out of this jerk's reach, b) find somewhere else to game, and c) write off whatever investments you've made in him regarding your homebrew system; it doesn't sound like continued association with this guy is worth whatever benefit he brings. And as others have said, however much shrinking the group may seem bad, it's not going to grow in any healthy way with him still in it.

You don't need to tolerate abusive behavior, but don't give back abuse and anger when it is thrown out there.
Refusing to spend time with an abusive person is refusing to tolerate abusive behaviour, and is not "giving back abuse and anger". (I also don't think there's anything wrong with being angry about being subjected to abuse, though what you do with that anger may be useful or not.)

Gaming is something to do with friends or at least people you can be friendly with for the length of a session, but that doesn't mean someone you game with is your friend toward whom you have responsibilities; if someone's being as unfriendly as this guy, then that's a sign you shouldn't be gaming with him, rather than the other way around (that you should treat him as a friend because you game with him). And if someone is a friend who you have a stake in helping improve, then you need to be able to say "your behaviour is unacceptable and I refuse to accept it", rather than impotently hanging around hoping he'll absorb better behaviour from you all through some sort of friendship radiation.

My advice of thinking of ways to help and deal with the person is just as valid as advice to immediately get out of there and not looking back.
No. Sorry, but "you have an obligation to put up with abuse in order to help the person dishing it out" - which is the advice you gave, though you may have intended it to be something different - is not, in fact, just as valid as "do not tolerate abuse, cut off contact with abusers". It's actually thoroughly harmful.

Mutazoia
2013-06-20, 09:23 AM
If the Game Master gives you OOC advice, is it cheating to follow it?

Imagine you were running an adventure (let's say a classic dungeon crawl) and at the end of the session you were going to call it a night ooc and return to town to seek your next adventure.

Then the DM said "Are you sure you don't want to continue on with this dungeon next session? You guys haven't explored it all and there is still a ton of XP and loot to be had, you might want to finish here before moving on."

Would you consider it cheating to follow the GM's advice and stay in the dungeon?



This came up in my game last week, and the party voted to continue with the dungeon this week. Last night in the middle of the session one of the players exploded, saying we shouldn't even be here and he felt like a dirty cheater for going against his earlier statements on OOC knowledge. He then gave standing orders that if I ever give the players advice again he will go out of his way to do the opposite, and if that means splitting the party so be it, even if it leads to a TPK or players sitting out for an entire gaming session. I was, confused to say the least, and I was wondering if anyone has had experiences with such a thing.

A GM making sure you want to leave a dungeon un-finished is not Meta Gaming. Situations like that are usually found when your GM was expecting another day of dungeon crawling and now is finding out if he has to come up with some bit of adventure that he wasn't prepared for yet.

An example of Meta Gaming is when the party thief is looting a seperate room from the rest of the party and tells the GM he's slipping one of the the shiny baubles he just found in his pocket, then the paladin (who was still in combat during the thief's search) immediately start's grilling the thief (In Character) about what loot he found even though the paladin would have no in game reason to know what happened a room away out of his sight while he was pre-occupied in combat.

An example of Meta Gaming (Cheating version) would be something along the lines of "Oh...I own this module too...if we take a left here and pull the third feather on the lower left side of the Turkey God statue we can open the secret room with the +12 Gibblets of Gravy Making." Usually not actually said aloud to the rest of the party but the character seems to be able to find his way to the best treasure and avoid all the traps along the way.

Mutazoia
2013-06-20, 09:51 AM
And lastly, we have already lost two players recently. If we kick him down we will be down to 3 PCs, one of whom is a problem player herself with very poor attendance, which means 2 PCs most of the time, and that is too small a party for my comfort zone.

I can Hazzard a guess that you've lost your other two players due to the attitude/actions of your problem child. If you move your game and exclude him your other two players may be willing to return.

Case in point. My board game group had a player who would constantly whine and quit mid game when he started to lose. Constantly. We could rarely finish a game with out him quitting. In one particular instance in a "let's play Talisman for the hell of it" session his character lost his talisman. He started cussing out everybody at the table (we play in a public venue not a private residence) at the top of his voice, jumped up, knocking over his chair, threw his soda in the general direction of the nearby trash can and stormed out. We kept trying to deal with this person and as a result our group shrank from 8 players to 4. Once we cut our problem child loose, those lost players started returning.

On a side note: I can infer from your description of your Problem Child that he's most likely using the "Role Playing" atmosphere as some sort of personal therapy session to act out some latent agression that he can not otherwise deal with in the real world, whether he realizes it or not (most likely not). When he storms off and locks himself in his room it is most likely because, on some subconscious level he is realizing that his "therapy session" isn't going they way he wants it to and is retreating from the experience. His tendancy to take his anger at people out on their belongings show's a definite fear of confrontation quite possibly steming from a failed (possibly disastrously so) confrontation with an authority figure some time in his childhood. The inanimate objects are unable to talk/fight back and he therefore sees them as safe surogates to vent his anger towards their owners. As neither you nor your players are not a trained therapists, I highly recomend you move the game (and your posessions) to a new venue. The fact that the game takes place in his home where he feels the safest is an encouraging factor in his outbursts. He may be less willing to act out in a public venue. I would still recomend caution when dealing with this individual in a free-form role playing atmosphere.

Talakeal
2013-06-20, 02:06 PM
I think this passed the point of "why is this guy still in your group?" and entered the domain of "why weren't the cops called yet?".

He hasnt done this recently. Besides, in California the cops dont really care about threats or property crimes, i know from personal experience.


I can Hazard a guess that you've lost your other two players due to the attitude/actions of your problem child. If you move your game and exclude him your other two players may be willing to return.


Actually that is very unlikely. The two players who left the group were actually worse problem players, and the player in question didn't start getting really bad until after they left.

Scow2
2013-06-20, 02:08 PM
:smalltongue:Then I add to the suggestion "Move to a New State". Not for gaming, but because California's a terrible place to be :smalltongue:

Toofey
2013-06-20, 03:16 PM
sounds to me like you're playing with a big baby. We all have our moments where we freak out for no reason, this could be that or a simple case wahhhhhh. Talk to the player, hints like this from the GM are essential to keeping games in working order (It's wrong to rail road but every game needs signposts) and the timing of the end of the session is just as arbitrary as continuing on.

Sith_Happens
2013-06-20, 03:42 PM
Actually that is very unlikely. The two players who left the group were actually worse problem players, and the player in question didn't start getting really bad until after they left.

Why stop at two problem players gone when there's still one left?

Talakeal
2013-06-20, 03:47 PM
Why stop at two problem players gone when there's still one left?

I didn't kick them, they left on their own.

Sith_Happens
2013-06-20, 06:04 PM
I didn't kick them, they left on their own.

The end result is the same.

Talakeal
2013-06-20, 06:08 PM
The end result is the same.

No, but the question "why stop" implies that i started something rather than sitting back and let life take its course.

SowZ
2013-06-20, 06:17 PM
No, but the question "why stop" implies that i started something rather than sitting back and let life take its course.

The fact remains that normal people are unlikely to join your game if this guy sticks around. It could be the greatest DM with the coolest homebrew system ever, but I wouldn't give one of my free evenings if it meant sitting on edge waiting for someone to explode.

The Grue
2013-06-20, 06:18 PM
OP, you seem hesitant to act on this matter in any way other than "plug your ears and pretend it's not happening". Forgive me if this is not the case, but this is the impression I've got from your subsequent posts in this thread.

There are two reasons I can see for why you'd be hesitant.


The problem player is someone you consider a friend, and you're concerned that excluding him from gaming will un-friend him
You're concerned that excluding this problem player will entail signing off from gaming, whether because your playgroup drops below some critical mass necessary for fun or because you lack a suitable venue for play


To the first, there's a fallacy that friends must do all fun things together and the failure to do so is a failure of a "friendship test". This is not the case. From your side, you can still easily maintain a friendship if the other guy is no longer included in gaming sessions. And if he decides that you've failed the Friendship Test and cuts off the relationship, then that's his decision and there is nothing you can do to influence it, and you need to respect that he is an individual and is entitled to make his own choices.

To the second, you need to decide whether having regular gaming sessions is more important to you than enjoying yourself. You do not sound like the current atmosphere of passive-aggressive confrontation, theft/destruction of possessions, and persistent risk of saying/doing the wrong thing is not a fun one to game in. D&D is a hobby, it's something you do for fun. So would you rather play D&D, or would you rather have fun?

SowZ
2013-06-20, 06:26 PM
OP, you seem hesitant to act on this matter in any way other than "plug your ears and pretend it's not happening". Forgive me if this is not the case, but this is the impression I've got from your subsequent posts in this thread.

There are two reasons I can see for why you'd be hesitant.


The problem player is someone you consider a friend, and you're concerned that excluding him from gaming will un-friend him
You're concerned that excluding this problem player will entail signing off from gaming, whether because your playgroup drops below some critical mass necessary for fun or because you lack a suitable venue for play


To the first, there's a fallacy that friends must do all fun things together and the failure to do so is a failure of a "friendship test". This is not the case. From your side, you can still easily maintain a friendship if the other guy is no longer included in gaming sessions. And if he decides that you've failed the Friendship Test and cuts off the relationship, then that's his decision and there is nothing you can do to influence it, and you need to respect that he is an individual and is entitled to make his own choices.

To the second, you need to decide whether having regular gaming sessions is more important to you than enjoying yourself. You do not sound like the current atmosphere of passive-aggressive confrontation, theft/destruction of possessions, and persistent risk of saying/doing the wrong thing is not a fun one to game in. D&D is a hobby, it's something you do for fun. So would you rather play D&D, or would you rather have fun?

To elaborate on this, continuing to put yourself under this stress is likely to cause DM burnout. We've all expressed concern that the other players might not put up with this for long, but eventually you might hit a point where you throw in the DM screen even if you think it hasn't reached that point yet. I don't know how you respond to stress, but you sound a little more implosive than explosive to me. Where you are more likely to let all the stress fall upon yourself than vent it on others.

If that's the case, who knows, some people in similar situations end up giving up gaming entirely or at least for a few years. Immature people can kill gaming for others. Not saying this is what will happen with you, but perhaps you should consider it as a possible risk?