Protecting shops from PCs

[Clumsyninja23]

How do you guys set up your shops or markets to protect from thievery? At low levels, usually the spell alarm or arming them well could suffice, but once the party (read: the wizard) gets to low-mid levels, it gets extremely hard to protect the items inside the shops well. How do you protect items from being stolen by the PCs every time they come to a new town? What works best for you?

Powerful law enforcers (fighters and divining wizards)?
At source magic protections?

Note: I'm not trying to lock everything down all the time, but that large shop that has things out of the PC's price range (for the moment) looks pretty enticing, but would give them too much wealth at their level.

[Lord Vukodlak]

How do you guys set up your shops or markets to protect from thievery? At low levels, usually the spell alarm or arming them well could suffice, but once the party (read: the wizard) gets to low-mid levels, it gets extremely hard to protect the items inside the shops well. How do you protect items from being stolen by the PCs every time they come to a new town? What works best for you?

Powerful law enforcers (fighters and divining wizards)?
At source magic protections?

Note: I'm not trying to lock everything down all the time, but that large shop that has things out of the PC's price range (for the moment) looks pretty enticing, but would give them too much wealth at their level.

Anything beyond low level magic items aren't kept at shops. When you buy a magic item you go to a broker who then finds someone with that item whose willing to sell or produce the item for you. One of the reasons you sell magic items at half market value is it needs to travel through four or five middlemen and possibly be teleported across the world before it actually reaches its target.

You can also have shelves behind the counter littered with cursed items. The shop owner knows which is which but the thief does not and proper identification takes time a thief may not have. I actually killed a PC who tried robbing a shop he reached into a bag of holding that wasn't really a bag of holding. The mere possibility that one item could have a lethal curse is enough to discourage many PC's from trying to rob shops blind.

*You could also run good aligned parties*

[Matticussama]

I've had to deal with this a lot with my group. Turn them breaking into the shop into a full adventure of its own, with multiple layers of defenses. In my experience, these basic defenses can deter parties up to 5th or 6th level. After that, the shops that have items worth stealing for them should have magical defenses.

Step 1: Town Watch; the party has to sneak past patrols. If the party needs a decent check to actually bypass them (the Town Watch should actually be decent at spot/listen) then it makes it less likely that the entire party will try to break in. Or, if they do, the Town Watch can alert other patrols - thus forcing a large scale confrontation. Level 2 and 3 town watch may not be much one-on-one, but when fighting large groups those numbers can add up.

Step 2: If they manage to hide/move silently, now they have to actually pick the lock. A large shop is going to have more than a single lock on their doors/windows, so it will require multiple checks by the Rogue; probably 2 - 3. If they house expensive magic items, they should probably have Arcane Lock on the doors and windows as well. Trying to use magic to bypass the locks will thus require at least 2 Knock spells; one to bypass the Arcane Lock, and one to bypass the actual locks.

Step 3: Regular guard dogs can count for a lot; they can use their scent ability to detect enemies 30ft away (more if the enemy is up wind). While they're picking the lock, have a guard dog (or dogs) begin barking and causing an alarm. Now not only do they need to deal with the dogs when they enter the shop, but they feel rushed to make sure the town watch doesn't notice. This puts them on a time crunch to add pressure. It might cause them to flee out of fear of getting caught, or if not it puts them in a panic and more likely to make mistakes.

Step 4: Once they get inside the shop, they have to neutralize the dogs quickly and quietly. If they just start hacking and slashing their way through the dogs, this will most likely alert the town guard; then they have to deal with the city's defenses.

If they manage to quietly put down the guard dogs quickly enough, then they get to deal with Alarm spells. Expensive magic items, the safe, potion vaults, etc probably have both Arcane Lock and Alarm. They should be spread out enough that it would take multiple dispel magic attempt to get them all.

Step 5: If they actually manage to bypass level appropriate alarms, dogs, locks, etc then let them reap their rewards. Maybe they have a +3 sword at level 5; that will make them feel really cool! To compensate, you can either throw less treasure at them for a while to compensate (by like 10 - 20% until things balance out) or throw enemies at them who will steal or Sunder items. Don't be too obvious about it; don't have them go specifically after the stolen items. Instead, have them target what makes sense in the fight. If the Wizard with a Wand of Burning Hands is more of a threat to the enemies than the Fighter with a +3 sword, then have them attempt to sunder the wand instead.

[JusticeZero]

Shops don't have anything that valuable. That'd be like selling fully loaded attack helicopters at a yard sale.

[HunterOfJello]

Wizard Assassin Insurance. Stores pay regular fees to professional Abjurers who works as assassins and kill anyone who steals expensive items from their stores. It's magical loss prevention.

The Abjurers use advanced scry and die tactics, scrying on the thieves, buffing themselves up like crazy with their abjurations, then teleport in on them with guns blazing.

[Rhynn]

Why would shops have anything worth stealing for players past 1st level? Even weapons and armor wouldn't actually be hanging on racks, but mostly made to order - doubly so in case of plate armor of any kind, and good swords. Masterwork items - the only kind of arms & armor players are likely to want after 3rd level or so - certainly will be made to order.

Magic items? Not making those to order is just insane, because you're burning XP to do it! You'd never make them, except maybe for the most common and cheap potions and scrolls, just to sit on shelves. You'd make them to order.

[Emperor Tippy]

MagicMart (Trademarked on thirty planes and three multiverses) uses an Ice Assassin trap to produce the shop owner who receives a permanent telepathic bond (courtesy of another trap) to that planes MagicMart Clearing House (generally sitting somewhere quite obscure, like inside a sun a few thousand light years away). Upon receiving an item request he passes along the information and one of MagicMart's Ice Assassin Solar's uses his 1/day Wish SLA to create the item exactly to the clients specifications before using its at will Greater Teleport to arrive at the shop and deliver it (and collect the payment) before Greater Teleporting back to its storage booth at the Clearing House until it is needed for something else.

Even assuming that you can kill the level 20 MagicMart shop keeper (an Easy Bake wizard who knows all Sor/Wiz spells and will cast for a fee), there is nothing to steal and he will just be replaced one round later.

[Waker]

Lord Vukodlak and Rhynn both have the right ideas. Having the sheer crazy power of items available just sitting in a store makes very little sense. If you don't follow the suggestions made by those two (and I would suggest you do) the other option you might try is that the items that are in the store are merely placeholders for the real things. Should a customer say "I like this sword", the shopkeep would then duck through a little portal to an alternate and heavily locked down location where the real items are locked away. While the store itself might only have very light security, this place is a small pocket dimension warded against teleportation and scrying, reinforced by whatever traps and other deterrents you feel are necessary. Each item has a fully detailed description, marked and small pieces of them set aside for the purposes of scrying, the whole vault contains a fairly subtle but distinct scent to allow trackers to follow, every time anyone enters the vault, a small alarm is sent to a separate location where a mage remotely views the room to ensure that it in fact the owner entering the vault.

[Malvanis]

Magical Traps of Forcecage. Trap them inside, and then another one that tells the local constables mentally that there has been a break in. If the shop wealthy enough to afford items that are beyond the price range of mid level PCs, they are wealthy enough to protect those said items against mid level PCs.

[Balor01]

Why is everyone in here so impractical?

On the shops' door there is a small notice: "All thefts will be reported to Bountyhunting guild."

Good luck with that.

[Infernalbargain]

Why is everyone in here so impractical?

On the shops' door there is a small notice: "All thefts will be reported to Bountyhunting guild."

Good luck with that.

Well make sure to add in like a sight thingy for positive identification.

[eggynack]

You could just have the shop's owner be a high level and optimized wizard. How do you think he crafted all of these items in the first place? He keeps high power magic items, in plain view, on a shelf behind him. If the PC's try to steal it, he activates magical traps that create walls of force around the shop, and dimensionally locks the area. I could come up with specific ways to do that kind of thing, and other ways to do other kinds of things, but he's a frigging wizard. Moreover, he's a wizard, in his base, who expects trouble. The PC's would be fools to try to assault that, and a reasonable outcome of a theft should be some amount of death. I mean, at the very least he can set things up such that he's always ready to mailman up anyone who tries anything. Instead of a sign explaining that thefts will be reported to the bounty hunters guild, have a sign that says that thieves have been known to spontaneously combust.

[hamishspence]

Instead of a sign explaining that thefts will be reported to the bounty hunters guild, have a sign that says that thieves have been known to spontaneously combust.
"No shoplifting. Violators should inform next of kin."

[Arcanist]

Why is everyone in here so impractical?

On the shops' door there is a small notice: "All thefts will be reported to Bountyhunting guild."

I prefer Tippy's idea. Just change it to "All thefts will be reported to a Wizard In The Sky (Which is redundant since he already knows about it)."

... Yeah... That is funnier :smallamused: Although, I prefer to not have a MagicMart anymore since It just devolves into people fighting over loot and arguing over if "WBL is to be divided amongst the party or separate amongst the PCs" (YES! That has happened before...) which detracts from the game. You earn your treasure as calculated and as a group and divide it appropriately. I am not going to mommy the party.

[eggynack]

"No shoplifting. Violators should inform next of kin."
Better yet, you could kajigger up a combination of divination and sending of some kind, so that your magical traps inform the next of kin automatically. You're a shop keep, not a monster. Alternatively, you could just set up the shopkeeper spelunky style. Give him a lot of defense, perfect knowledge of when an item is stolen from him, and a shotgun that he can whip out spontaneously. Shoplifters are pursued relentlessly, if they don't die instantly due to a sudden case of buckshot to the face.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I can also recall but not from which book a very nifty cursed magic item. Its curse was activated by theft upon stealing said book the thief becomes trapped within its pages as the protagonist of fairy tales about why stealing is wrong.

[Erik Vale]

MagicMart (Trademarked on thirty planes and three multiverses) uses an Ice Assassin trap to produce the shop owner who receives a permanent telepathic bond (courtesy of another trap) to that planes MagicMart Clearing House (generally sitting somewhere quite obscure, like inside a sun a few thousand light years away). Upon receiving an item request he passes along the information and one of MagicMart's Ice Assassin Solar's uses his 1/day Wish SLA to create the item exactly to the clients specifications before using its at will Greater Teleport to arrive at the shop and deliver it (and collect the payment) before Greater Teleporting back to its storage booth at the Clearing House until it is needed for something else.

Even assuming that you can kill the level 20 MagicMart shop keeper (an Easy Bake wizard who knows all Sor/Wiz spells and will cast for a fee), there is nothing to steal and he will just be replaced one round later.

Is it just me, or have you posted this twice today?

[Seffbasilisk]

I normally have the really cool shops be run by retired adventurers with fully functioning knees.

Sometimes the mundane shops pay protection to the thieves guild who take it as a slight that someone thinks they can get away with it.

Guard dogs, basic traps, heck even things like the owners sleep above the floor, and there's a floorpanel that's worn thin and they step around without even thinking of it any longer...

[ahenobarbi]

They are guarded similarly to how we guard tank-shops and nuke-shops in real world...

[Arcanist]

They are guarded similarly to how we guard tank-shops and nuke-shops in real world...

The base components are separated and construction is only performed immediately upon a shipment is requested? That would make sense...

[Wings of Peace]

You could do something similar to what a lot of jewelry stores do and simply have the stores move their wears to an on site or off site safe after closing.

[Deophaun]

They are guarded similarly to how we guard tank-shops and nuke-shops in real world...
So the magic weapons are left on the front lawn of the seller's business?

[Cheiromancer]

A common premise in a game is that the PC's are the only available group who can face a particular challenge. That is why they are the ones hired to find the McGuffin, fight the dragon, defeat the bandits, rescue the kidnapped children, save the world, etc.. No one else is capable.

When this is the case it strikes me as just wrong that locals are incompetent *except* when the PC's have to be reined in. The city guard is unable to solve the rash of crimes the PC's are attempting to solve, but if the PC's burglarize the wrong place, they are instantly there to arrest them. And with enough high-level support to ruin the PC's day. Talk about breaking immersion.

If the campaign handles WBL by means of special stores to buy and sell loot, so be it. But talk to your players and ask them not to try to break the game by robbing those stores. Add it to the gentleman's agreement, and then you won't have to worry.

In certain circumstances you would be willing for the PC's to try to rob a local treasury/armory. If they are escaped slaves or fugitives in a tough setting, setting. But then you treat it just as a standard adventure, with level appropriate challenges.

[undead hero]

Why is everyone in here so impractical?

On the shops' door there is a small notice: "All thefts will be reported to Bountyhunting guild."

Good luck with that.

Soooo ..


If you steal from me I'll give you free xp!

[icefractal]

A common premise in a game is that the PC's are the only available group who can face a particular challenge. That is why they are the ones hired to find the McGuffin, fight the dragon, defeat the bandits, rescue the kidnapped children, save the world, etc.. No one else is capable.

When this is the case it strikes me as just wrong that locals are incompetent *except* when the PC's have to be reined in. The city guard is unable to solve the rash of crimes the PC's are attempting to solve, but if the PC's burglarize the wrong place, they are instantly there to arrest them. And with enough high-level support to ruin the PC's day. Talk about breaking immersion.This is true. Shopkeepers should take reasonable precautions they can afford, like guard dogs, hidden compartments, trying to get their shop on the most frequent patrol route for the watch, etc. But that's not going to be foolproof, and pulling a "Suddenly, 10th level Paladins" maneuver seems cheap and often makes the PCs prior efforts pointless.

I'd say the big defense is that they don't physically have all those items at the shop. A magic item broker know how to get items when needed - that could mean anything from local connections to a portal to a Mercane trading nexus.

Now when you're talking about powerful items, some of the people involved are going to be quite powerful. If you commission a Wizard to make an Iron Golem, you're talking about someone very powerful in their own right, and you probably shouldn't try to cheat them on the price. And a broker that deals in stuff of that magnitude is presumably competent/protected enough not to be trivially stomped by those on either side of the deal. So it's not unreasonable that someone like that could have some pretty nasty defenses. It just means that a town for which "a small tribe of typical Ogres" is a big threat should not have a guy who sells Vorpal swords in residence.

[Balor01]

Soooo ..


If you steal from me I'll give you free xp!

If by "free XP" you mean being hunted down, amputated, potentially castrated, cured of wounds so you don't die and brought back to the Merchant by Murderhobo party of four levels higher then you, then you will definitely get free xp.

If that "getting free XP means" in your land.

All wards are completelly irrelevant. The best hunter Bountyhunter the guild has at its disposal is Bountyhunter god. Just for those wizards who try to be too smart. But going beyond INT 25 usually means you will not steal stuff you can buy.

But then again WIS is Wizards dump stat.

[Slide]

How to protect them from the PCs?

Don't.

If the PCs steal from an apple vendor in a market and the little old lady catches them, she shrieks, "Stop, thief!" A half-dozen level 1 warriors un-ass their favorite piece of real estate and come over to see what's going on. If the PCs manage to defeat the town guardsmen, congrats! They stole an apple! Oh, they're also probably wanted for six counts of murder.

If the PCs steal from a magic item shop, the response should depend upon the shop. If it sells little magical trinkets worth under 1000 GP, it's approximately the same as if they knocked over your average jewelry store. If it sells magical items worth over a thousand gold and has an actual stock, then whoever owns that shop probably has more wealth than a 20th level (unoptimized) PC.

They will use it in whatever manner they see fit to deal with thieves. Raise Dead + bounty hunter contract? Are those suits of armor in the corners actually golems? Is shopkeeper some mook and the owner is a high-level wizard off in a tower? Is everything insured, and the insurance companies are accustomed to dealing with dragons, necromancers and adventurers?

No matter how it goes down, the adventurers should not be singled out. They'll probably overcome the initial defenses and get out the door with a very impressive haul. At that point, they are no longer adventurers. They are the BBEG, and adventurers start looking for them.

[buttcyst]

The way I run shops is they are only equipped with a few mundane items, mostly useless stuff or things I think are funny. The characters already have weapons and armor and equipment before arriving to most shops above level 1. Instead of stocking the premade magic items, potions, wondrous items, etc..., I have my PCs make requests of the armorer or weapon smith or brewer and they are given an OOC limit to what amount of things they can request or the highest amount of "+" they can add to their existing equipment. with the only magic items in the stores belonging to the PCs. for general goods, I refer the pcs to the equipment sections of books and I grab my percentile and do some funky DM math to see if maybe he has it in the back room, all dependent on obscurity or oddness of the item and the size of the city. Doing it this way, I've had no troubles yet and I like to think that even if some is caused, it is mitigated by the fact that the parties items are also at risk of suffering the same fate as the town (you burned down the shop? your +3 greatsword you were getting enchanted was in there getting reforged... ohhh.... or better yet, your actions as a nut case in town have had you exiled... your +3 greatsword is still at the weapon smiths and your armor is still getting masterworked at the armorers... and you've already paid dearly for their services... and you cannot get back into town... until you make up for your deeds somehow.... had that one happen once to a 5th lvl party, the rogue was killed by the rest of the party... they still didn't get their things back... muahahahaha)

[icefractal]

If by "free XP" you mean being hunted down, amputated, potentially castrated, cured of wounds so you don't die and brought back to the Merchant by Murderhobo party of four levels higher then you, then you will definitely get free xp.

If that "getting free XP means" in your land.

All wards are completelly irrelevant. The best hunter Bountyhunter the guild has at its disposal is Bountyhunter god. Just for those wizards who try to be too smart. But going beyond INT 25 usually means you will not steal stuff you can buy.

But then again WIS is Wizards dump stat.This is exactly what Cheiromancer was complaining about (and I am too). If there's this godly-powerful Bountyhunter guild, that's affordable to any random shopkeeper, then what the hell are the PCs even there for? Army of the undead threatening the kingdom? Undead cause lots of property damage - just have your local shopkeeper call in the bounty hunters against the Lich King. Problem solved!

[The Viscount]

The Bounthy Hunter guild has a strict code of honor. They may only hunt down those who steal from shops.

The best way to protect shops from PCs as mentioned is making it part of the gentleman's agreement. If PCs want to loot from shops, you could consider the agreement broken if you wish retribution.

[jindra34]

This is exactly what Cheiromancer was complaining about (and I am too). If there's this godly-powerful Bountyhunter guild, that's affordable to any random shopkeeper, then what the hell are the PCs even there for? Army of the undead threatening the kingdom? Undead cause lots of property damage - just have your local shopkeeper call in the bounty hunters against the Lich King. Problem solved!
Options:
1. The people involved are loyal to the city/state/whatever, and while they might take efforts to prevent damage/injury/loss of life to it, they don't feel the desire to go out and risk their lives for fame and fortune.
2. They are (mostly) retired adventurers and the whole system is to allow them a comfortable retirement while still providing a sense of them doing work. Which means every shopkeeper pays a little yearly fee, plus costs when something gets stolen.
3. Actually just having them ask for the costs (like expendable magic items used) might be enough. After all, if you see the Lich King or whatever as a big threat, and you(singular or plural) are willing to fund a group to that degree to deal with it, the whole bounty hunter issue becomes a non-issue.

[GoddessSune]

How do you guys set up your shops or markets to protect from thievery?

Well, even just core D&D has a ton of protection type spells and magic items. So it is not so hard to protect a shop. Add in more then core and you have a lot.

Easy one is that powerful items are not kept in the shop, but are 'foxed' in as needed.


I play in the Greenwood style Forgotten Realms, so a 'simple' shop might have a lich guardian, for example. And things like Wardmists.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm with the crowd saying a stockpile of highly valuable magical items all in a 'shop' doesn't make any sense.

You can get minor magic items (as in DMG table 7-27) by going to one of a number of local guilds, unions, or confederacies or even the odd noble house, depending on what exactly it is you're looking for; e.g. the mercanary companies have surplus arms and armor, usually looted from dungeons or off of targets, to supplement funding from jobs, likewise with the thieves guild for your more larcenous tools but not the loot because they have to fence that stuff asap to actually make a profit, the exploration confederacy sells items useful for travel and exploration as well as bits and bobs from the latest expedition that they haven't traded away yet, and the wizard's tower or temple of the god of commerce or artifice will have a broad selection of a bit of everything as well as the tools of the spellcasting trade and can have initiate members craft items on request. None of them will have a standing stockpile though, only a few, mostly random items that they're more likely to trade than to sell.

A +1 weapon is worth 40 trade-bars worth of gold. Nobody except money changers, trading companies, and governments traffic in that kind of cash. The above mentioned companies and guilds will -trade- you their goods for your loot and old equipment and will accept cash if you've got it, but -none- of them will give you cash for your crap unless it's something that they'll have a serious use for. They're going to immediately sell your old stuff to one or another trading company for cash for their own use.

The trading companies don't keep anything at the local office at all and don't do trade in minor items with individuals from the general public. They facilitate the exchange of those goods between the various companies and guilds and supply the governments with items in quantity immensely faster than the governments' crafters can make them. They will, however, deal with individuals for the exchange of intermediate and major magic items as brokers.

The only shops that actually keep a stockpile of magical goods are potion brewers. They don't worry about thieves because their whole stock is labeled in code, the key to which is either stored somewhere very secure after hours or only exists in the shop owner's head. There's also the factor of potions being pretty much unsellable by anyone but the guy who makes them. This is because there's no way to know if the potion you're being sold second-hand is what the seller says it is because he almost certainly didn't make it and if he stole it he might not even know what it is. If you rob a potion maker's shop the best you're going to get is a couple scrolls of spells that aren't on the shopkeeper's list, maybe a schema of a spell for a particularly popular potion, and a crap-ton of potions that you'll have to identify and can't sell. You might also get a few alchemical items, but noone cares about that.