Ye Olde Majik Shoppe . . . Humbug

[ShriekingDrake]

As a DM, in most of my campaigns (occasionally I run magic as mundane worlds), I am not a fan of the town magic shop, especially the shop that will customize magic items for players or that has a broad panoply of items. I think it takes the wonder out of finding and using magic items, if one only need to go to the local "target" store to buy them. Oh, I don't mind making some scrolls and potions available (or other weaker items that might be useful in a particular region), but other items I feel should be won, negotiated, investigated, pursued, struggled for, etc.. I try to let my players discover, locate, and benefit from many wonderful magic items and I often tailor those items to either the plot or the expressed interests of the characters. I'm curious what others think about this.

[Deophaun]

In my campaigns, the idea of a "magic shop" is an abstraction for the process of finding buyers, sellers, crafters, and even hidden stashes to obtain what the players want. Naturally, it takes a few days or even weeks of "shopping" to find exactly what they want, but unless I see an interesting hook in their shopping lists, I don't distract from the campaign with the details.

I have no fear of removing the wonder from magic items. I want my players marveling at the campaign, not at an entry in the DMG.

[JusticeZero]

I had a post on the subject in my campaign thread (in my sig). Basically, in the lands of the Girdwood, you do have a "magic shop" of sorts, but it involves dealing with the central governments of all the city-states and arranging exchanges and trades and the like to get them. This is pretty reasonable, since the higher end magic is a little bit like buying and selling tanks and guided missiles and the like; by the time you can deal with that stuff, you're pretty darned terrifying on a national scale anyways, but you seem to be on their side at the moment...

[inuyasha]

I always have a scroll and a potion shop, anything else you have to find, make, or otherwise obtain

[Rhynn]

Just posted this in another thread...


Why would shops have anything worth stealing for players past 1st level? Even weapons and armor wouldn't actually be hanging on racks, but mostly made to order - doubly so in case of plate armor of any kind, and good swords. Masterwork items - the only kind of arms & armor players are likely to want after 3rd level or so - certainly will be made to order.

Magic items? Not making those to order is just insane, because you're burning XP to do it! You'd never make them, except maybe for the most common and cheap potions and scrolls, just to sit on shelves. You'd make them to order.

Basically, 1st, maybe (but mostly not) 2nd-level potions and scrolls, and maybe similarly-priced items (50 gp or so) could be bought - not at "shops," but at the house or place of business of the crafter. With such low-traffic items, why sell to a retailer at a lower price (unless you're marking up the retailer's price from the DMG price), especially when that wasn't really done in the medieval era that the games basically mimic? A weaponsmith sells his own wares, why wouldn't the potion-brewer?

Anything more expensive, you'd either have to have the improbable luck to find (maybe the DM can roll up 1d6 completely random magic items to determine the total selling market in a large city for that month), or more likely commission from a high-level spellcaster.

This all works out somewhat more sensibly in Pathfinder, where magic items don't suck XP to create - 3.X kinda handwaves why spellcasters would ever agree to burn XP for a measly 5 gp per 1 XP. But the monetary investment is still so large, you'd be a fool to craft anything past 100 gp or so without making sure you've got a buyer for it first. It's too much of a loss to suck if the item doesn't self or weeks or months, and the money could have been invested better.

[nobodez]

This is likely where Mage Guilds are best, though even they are a stop-gap solution.

Also, unless the PCs are the only group of adventurers, there are shops making 50% gross profit on buying "used" magic items from one group of adventurers, then selling it to another.

[Flickerdart]

Magic items are ingrained in the game's math, and most classes need specific ones to be effective. It's different for everyone, and I don't much care to add more work for myself as a DM, so I just let people buy whatever when they have time and money to do so. Epic quests for items are only interesting when they don't happen literally every single time you need to get something, and the reward is more than just catching up to the game math.

[Rhynn]

Magic items are ingrained in the game's math, and most classes need specific ones to be effective. It's different for everyone, and I don't much care to add more work for myself as a DM, so I just let people buy whatever when they have time and money to do so. Epic quests for items are only interesting when they don't happen literally every single time you need to get something, and the reward is more than just catching up to the game math.

This is, indeed, a giant stupid problem with D&D 3.X.

Edit:

Also, unless the PCs are the only group of adventurers, there are shops making 50% gross profit on buying "used" magic items from one group of adventurers, then selling it to another.

But the initial investment remains ridiculous. You buy an item for 15,000 gp. Are you ever going to sell it? Are you going to sell it within a reasonable time frame? With a monthly interest of 5%, that money would generate the same 100% profit in 14 months in a more reliable venture. Magic item re-sale would be an enormous gamble (unless you're running some kind of ridiculous world where mid- and high-level adventurers run around throwing hundreds of thousands in gold around at everything).

EditEdit: Or, heck, a much more conservative 5% per year and 14 years. That's not bad - for most people, 15,000 gp is years-scale money. That's over a thousand gold a year, which is enough to live on well all year.

[JusticeZero]

... , there are shops making 50% gross profit on buying "used" magic items from one group of adventurers, then selling it to another.
And this is a problem..... Why exactly? It is pretty much standard procedure for many businesses to do that anyways. They have to deal with huge sums of money being tied up in merchandise that might not sell any time soon and the high mark up keeps them from becoming paupers with massive theoretical assets.

[Flickerdart]

And this is a problem..... Why exactly? It is pretty much standard procedure for many businesses to do that anyways. They have to deal with huge sums of money being tied up in merchandise that might not sell any time soon and the high mark up keeps them from becoming paupers with massive theoretical assets.
Character backstory: Merchant is stuck with tons of sweet gear but nobody is buying it, so he decks himself out with the best that he's got and goes to punch dragons for money.

[Philistine]

As a DM, in most of my campaigns (occasionally I run magic as mundane worlds), I am not a fan of the town magic shop, especially the shop that will customize magic items for players or that has a broad panoply of items. I think it takes the wonder out of finding and using magic items, if one only need to go to the local "target" store to buy them. Oh, I don't mind making some scrolls and potions available (or other weaker items that might be useful in a particular region), but other items I feel should be won, negotiated, investigated, pursued, struggled for, etc.. I try to let my players discover, locate, and benefit from many wonderful magic items and I often tailor those items to either the plot or the expressed interests of the characters. I'm curious what others think about this.

This again?

Dude. I'm sure that's a great houserule (since the rules actually do specify magic item availability based on gp cost and local population) for your specific group, but I just have to know - why do you hate mundane characters so much? Throttling back the party's access to magic makes them fall even farther behind the spellcasters.

[BWR]

With the amount of magic floating around in the D&D settings (most of them), magic shops become a fact of life and I can't see how it would be otherwise.

Supply and demand.

Magic is fairly cheap, but not everyone can make their own spells or items. Those who can craft can make a solid living out of selling to those who want it. People who find items they don't need can sell it. It's the very nature of society. There are two ways to remove the magic shop. 1. make magic so rare that no one would ever dream of selling their stuff. 2. pretend everybody has a blank spot in their brains when they start thinking "stuff I have + stuff other people want = profit".
You can always fiddle with the details of what is for sale in any given shop in anygiven country. You don't need to find racks of holy avengers for sale in the Icewind Dale, but a potion or two should be available. In Sigil, you can find everything, etiher in the stores or someone who can easily import it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, generally if the GM isn't going to be providing MagicMarts, I make sure I have access to the magic items anyways, even if it means going Warlock12/Chameleon2 to craft them all myself.

[ShriekingDrake]

Thanks for all the great thoughts, so far.


I want my players marveling at the campaign, not at an entry in the DMG.

My feeling exactly.


Dude. I'm sure that's a great houserule (since the rules actually do specify magic item availability based on gp cost and local population) for your specific group, but I just have to know - why do you hate mundane characters so much? Throttling back the party's access to magic makes them fall even farther behind the spellcasters.

Well, Dude, I'm not sure you've leapt the correct conclusion. I handsomely reward the mundane characters in my campaigns--I just don't let them or their magical allies, ask the piñata to swap the treasures inside for gold; I make the character swing blindfolded.



With the amount of magic floating around in the D&D settings (most of them), magic shops become a fact of life and I can't see how it would be otherwise.

I think it depends on how you like to run your campaigns. I can absolutely see a world in which Magic leaks from every fissure--and I have run such worlds. But in most of my worlds, this is not the case and I think the robust Majik Shoppe is too easy and takes some of the fun out of the game. I like it when the players have to plan, often together, what items they will craft, what alliances they will form in order to get items they need crafted, etc.

[Clistenes]

Well, the way I see it:

-The lowest level magical items can be purchased from very wealthy merchants, who buy them for half their price (usually from tomb raiders, thieves or from the ruined descendants of important people who have to pawn them) and keep them in their vaults until they find a buyer, which can take years. Those wealthy merchants usually have hired muscle to protect them.

-Lowest to low level magical items can be made on commission by temples, wizard guilds or dwarven smiths. They may keep some pieces for their own use, and may be willing to sell them.

-Middle level magical items are treasured heirlooms of temples, noble families, knightly, druidic and paladin orders, etc., or are personal property of powerful wizards, or part of the hoards of dragons. Nobody creates something so powerful to sell it, it's just not practical (since you get the same money and have to invest the same time and xp to create one +10 sword or a hundred +1 swords), you have to fulfill some quest, offer a title or lands, or an even more powerful magical item in exchange.

-High level items are the regalia of emperors and Pope-like high priests. You can buy them, but only from demons, devils, angels, archons, genies, titans, mercanes, witchwyrds and other transplanar merchants.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, even mundane blacksmiths of sufficient skill can craft magic items. So it's not like you need a Hogwarts in every town just so the fighter can get that ghost touch flail he's been pining for.

I personally agree that it's better to have the party craft the things they need, and then ban specific troublemakers. +2 Holy Longswords are fine, but candles of invocation and efreet bottles might require additional effort to craft beyond what is in the book.

[Rhynn]

In Pathfinder, even mundane blacksmiths of sufficient skill can craft magic items. So it's not like you need a Hogwarts in every town just so the fighter can get that ghost touch flail he's been pining for.

Master Craftsman doesn't get around other requirements, though, does it? You can work with someone else, but you still need the spells. It doesn't reduce the amount of magic required, really, it just means that the spellcasters don't need to be the ones with the Craft feats (the craftsman still needs them).

Basically, a weaponsmith with Master Craftsman (Weaponsmithing) can make +X weapons using Craft (Weaponsmithing) ranks as Caster Level, but that's about it. Same for Craft (Armorer).

[Slipperychicken]

ACKS has mechanics for availability of given items, depending on how costly the item is, and how big the market is. Basically, expensive or obscure items only have a %chance to be found in a given market, and even then a truly obscure item will only have 1d4 or 1d2+1 for sale. If the item you want isn't available in the desired quantity for purchase, you have to commission it.

One could probably finagle the tables there to work for a 3.5 game to get a more realistic market for magic items (i.e. a step between magic-mart and no-magic)

[Rhynn]

The ACKS system is pretty dang cool, like the entire game. (Check it out, link in my sig!) The minimum cost for any magic item is 500 gp. Buying them is at double the cost. The very largest cities (Rome, Waterdeep, etc.) can have as many as 7(!) potions of healing for sale! There's 1 sword +1, and a whopping 10% chance of finding something like a sword +2 for sale. Commissioning (or creating them yourself) is pretty much assumed to be the default.

Selling magic items you found isn't automatic either - you only have a percentage chance each month of finding a buyer, and meanwhile you've "tapped" a henchman out of play to hang around bars or high society orgies trying to find one.

[Psyren]

Master Craftsman doesn't get around other requirements, though, does it? You can work with someone else, but you still need the spells. It doesn't reduce the amount of magic required, really, it just means that the spellcasters don't need to be the ones with the Craft feats (the craftsman still needs them).

No, you don't need the spells for magic weapons, armor or wondrous items. All you need to do is raise the DC by 5 to ignore that requirement.

[ShriekingDrake]

The ACKS system is pretty dang cool, like the entire game. (Check it out, link in my sig!) The minimum cost for any magic item is 500 gp. Buying them is at double the cost. The very largest cities (Rome, Waterdeep, etc.) can have as many as 7(!) potions of healing for sale! There's 1 sword +1, and a whopping 10% chance of finding something like a sword +2 for sale. Commissioning (or creating them yourself) is pretty much assumed to be the default.

Selling magic items you found isn't automatic either - you only have a percentage chance each month of finding a buyer, and meanwhile you've "tapped" a henchman out of play to hang around bars or high society orgies trying to find one.

In general, I find this approach appealing. I'll take a look at the link. Thanks for sharing.

[Dimers]

Magic items are ingrained in the game's math, and most classes need specific ones to be effective.

If the challenges in the world are appropriate for a party who aren't decked out in magic items, then this will not be the case. It's world-specific. ShriekingDrake, do you design your encounters with this in mind?

I like to have custom magic item creation available to my players as well as dropping loot that I think they'll find interesting. But I lean toward using the crafters as another way to immerse the players in the world. So there are PEOPLE who happen to have some crafter feats, not just MagicMarts, and the PCs interact with those people when they want something they can't make themselves.

[Rhynn]

No, you don't need the spells for magic weapons, armor or wondrous items. All you need to do is raise the DC by 5 to ignore that requirement.

Ah, right, forgot about that bit and only did a quick skim of the rules.

Pathfinder does introduce a whole 'nuther problem: unless you're optimized for Craft, you're going to fail some of those rolls, making magic items that much riskier, and trafficking in them that much more expensive. If you've got a client who ordered the item, great! They pay all the costs, plus 50% of full price. But good luck recouping your money selling a magic item you made for no client and blew the roll on a few times, especially if there's a competition.

[Flickerdart]

If the challenges in the world are appropriate for a party who aren't decked out in magic items, then this will not be the case.
I don't feel that rebalancing monsters to account for the non-casters in the party having neither the versatility nor numbers to keep up is a productive use of any DM's time. Meanwhile, casters aren't terribly bothered, since most of the important magic items are just replicating spells anyway. It is not always (read: almost never) possible to balance encounters against a party that is stratified between the haves and the have-nots even more than the system already divides them.

[Rhynn]

I don't feel that rebalancing monsters

How about balancing the encounters (or "challenges" as Dimers wrote), which you have to do for any and all campaigns and parties anyway? Nothing to do with re-balancing the monsters themselves.

[Flickerdart]

How about balancing the encounters (or "challenges" as Dimers wrote), which you have to do for any and all campaigns and parties anyway? Nothing to do with re-balancing the monsters themselves.
Mundanes without magic items are even more poorly suited to handling non-monster challenges, because at least they can bash some monsters in the face until they die. When my players have a level of versatility they are comfortable with, I'm comfortable in throwing pretty much anything at them and know that they can solve it in some way or another. Not having to fret over whether Johnny Fighter can engage flying or incorporeal or ranged foes gives me a lot of time to focus on the story and not have to gimp my NPCs and environments just because some people in the party can't handle them.

[Clistenes]

This is, indeed, a giant stupid problem with D&D 3.X.

Edit:


But the initial investment remains ridiculous. You buy an item for 15,000 gp. Are you ever going to sell it? Are you going to sell it within a reasonable time frame? With a monthly interest of 5%, that money would generate the same 100% profit in 14 months in a more reliable venture. Magic item re-sale would be an enormous gamble (unless you're running some kind of ridiculous world where mid- and high-level adventurers run around throwing hundreds of thousands in gold around at everything).

EditEdit: Or, heck, a much more conservative 5% per year and 14 years. That's not bad - for most people, 15,000 gp is years-scale money. That's over a thousand gold a year, which is enough to live on well all year.

I guess that mages and priests know of some place where people from all the planes can gather to buy and sell magic items. Very rich non-spellcasting merchants could have contracts with extraplanar merchants like janni, witchwyrds or mercanes.

In short: That merchant who bought your stuff at half its price sells it for 55 % its price to a more important merchant who sells it for 60 % its price to a mage, who sells it to a mercane, who sells it at the City of Brass' market.

[Flickerdart]

I guess that mages and priests know of some place where people from all the planes can gather to buy and sell magic items. Very rich non-spellcasting merchants could have contracts with extraplanar merchants like janni, witchwyrds or mercanes.

In short: That merchant who bought your stuff at half its price sells it for 55 % its price to a more important merchant who sells it for 60 % its price to a mage, who sells it to a mercane, who sells it at the City of Brass' market.
My favourite "origin story" for magic items appearing is githyanki trying to escape the wrath of their lich queen, who will kill anyone she thinks is getting strong enough to challenge her. Because githyanki can't just sit around and not fight, they put all of that XP towards magic items, crafting literally anything they can think of. This is where useless items like Apparatuses of Kwalish come from.

[Chronos]

I have a few problems with the magic mart concept. First, who's providing security for these items? The PCs pretty quickly get to a point where they could easily rob the magic shops blind and get away with it. Unless, of course, the owner of the shop is even higher level than them... In which case, why isn't that guy going out and saving the world, instead of us?

Second, it really diminishes some iconic monsters. Back in second edition, a dragon's hoard was huge: Once the party had slain a dragon, they could pretty much afford anything money could buy. But this wasn't a problem for game balance, because most things you'd want by that point, money couldn't buy. In third edition, though, with the way WBL is integrated into the game, this is no longer possible. Have you ever calculated the size of the hoard of a 3rd edition dragon? You'd have a hard time making a bed for a human out of that much gold.

Personally, what I'd do is to put a shop in decent-sized cities that sells minor magic items (maybe up to as much as +1 or so). Then, in the biggest city in the realm, there'd be a magical consignment shop. You could bring items to that guy, and he'd keep an ear out for potential buyers. Or tell him what you're looking for, and he'd look out for potential sellers and contact you. For a price in either case, of course. Any items you're selling with him, you're responsible for securing: If he gets robbed, so sorry.

Meanwhile, the DM should be meeting most of the party's wealth needs directly through treasure. When the party gets to the point where a +3 weapon is appropriate, about then one of the enemies the characters face drops one. This also allows the DM to tweak the party balance some on the fly: If the casters are outperforming the warriors, the drops start including less spellbooks and metamagic rods, and start including more weapons and armor. If the wizard is upset with that, he can go to the consignment shop, pay his commission, and hope to get the custom items he wants. This option should be available, but it should be expensive enough that the party should seriously consider keeping their random loot, even if it's not quite exactly what they wanted.

[ShriekingDrake]

If the challenges in the world are appropriate for a party who aren't decked out in magic items, then this will not be the case. It's world-specific. ShriekingDrake, do you design your encounters with this in mind?

I design (and redesign) every encounter with the party (and players) in mind. When I'm the DM, I see it as my job to make the gaming experience as fun as I can for the players. With this in mind, I see no value in putting the players up against an encounter that all the information/cues say they can win, even though I know that they cannot. (Though I certainly have some encounters where the players are supposed to figure out that they cannot win--right now--and run away.) Instead, I try to make the encounters winnable and memorable. That is not to say that I don't allow the consequences of poor play, poor decision-making, or bad luck to intervene. I expect players to be mindful of their resources, the plot/objectives, the information around them, and their characters. This is my long-winded way of saying, that I do indeed keep the characters' available resources in mind.

[Emperor Tippy]

I have a few problems with the magic mart concept. First, who's providing security for these items? The PCs pretty quickly get to a point where they could easily rob the magic shops blind and get away with it. Unless, of course, the owner of the shop is even higher level than them... In which case, why isn't that guy going out and saving the world, instead of us?


MagicMart (Trademarked on thirty planes and three multiverses) uses an Ice Assassin trap to produce the shop owner who receives a permanent telepathic bond (courtesy of another trap) to that planes MagicMart Clearing House (generally sitting somewhere quite obscure, like inside a sun a few thousand light years away). Upon receiving an item request he passes along the information and one of MagicMart's Ice Assassin Solar's uses his 1/day Wish SLA to create the item exactly to the clients specifications before using its at will Greater Teleport to arrive at the shop and deliver it (and collect the payment) before Greater Teleporting back to its storage booth at the Clearing House until it is needed for something else.

Even assuming that you can kill the level 20 MagicMart shop keeper (an Easy Bake wizard who knows all Sor/Wiz spells and will cast for a fee), there is nothing to steal and he will just be replaced one round later.

My response, and to the second part; because its just not worth the hassle.

[Another_Poet]

I tend to lean toward the "private practitioner" source of magic items. For example, PCs in my Castles & Crusades game made friends (cautiously) with Grimelda the Witch, who lives outside of town.

Grimelda can - with time - make or find just about anything the PCs might request, or a dubious substitute for what they request. She also says random cryptic and seemingly prophetic utterances, sends them on side quests for ingredients, tests her creations on them, serves them homemade cookies, and has accidentally poisoned the town at least once.

As long as they stay on her good side, and put up with her eccentricity, there's a wide range of items they could get from her; but they're not always willing to ask.

"You don't have to pay me, dear," said Grimelda, smiling over her mug of tisane. "Someday I'll need a favor, and I know you'll be there. Hee hee!"

[Clistenes]

MagicMart (Trademarked on thirty planes and three multiverses) uses an Ice Assassin trap to produce the shop owner who receives a permanent telepathic bond (courtesy of another trap) to that planes MagicMart Clearing House (generally sitting somewhere quite obscure, like inside a sun a few thousand light years away). Upon receiving an item request he passes along the information and one of MagicMart's Ice Assassin Solar's uses his 1/day Wish SLA to create the item exactly to the clients specifications before using its at will Greater Teleport to arrive at the shop and deliver it (and collect the payment) before Greater Teleporting back to its storage booth at the Clearing House until it is needed for something else.

Even assuming that you can kill the level 20 MagicMart shop keeper (an Easy Bake wizard who knows all Sor/Wiz spells and will cast for a fee), there is nothing to steal and he will just be replaced one round later.

At that point, why would the people who run the organization bother to do it at all? Those people who can make Ice Assassin Solars can make anything they could desire with their own magic. Magical trade would be in the hands of low and middle level mages and outsiders who still can't create everything at will.

An Efreet, for example, can produce an unlimited amount of money and magic items, but only as a gift for a non-genie so it needs to trade. Mercanes and Janni aren't crafters, but they travel the planes with ease and transport expensive wares. Most Celestials and Demons aren't crafters, but they need stuff to fight their wars and buy mortal's souls...etc.

I think most of the high-level magic trade is in the hands of extraplanar beings and planewalking mortals.

[Deophaun]

Also, unless the PCs are the only group of adventurers, there are shops making 50% gross profit on buying "used" magic items from one group of adventurers, then selling it to another.
Abstraction fixes this "problem." A lot of the market cost for a magic item gets eaten up by paying contacts, making bribes, outfitting expeditions, or any number of incidentals, and helps explain why your average PC crafter always seems to get around half the listed price for his goods. Tracking down the right item is expensive in and of itself.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I've found that the best way to handle magic item purchases is via NPCs who will craft the items for the PCs in exchange for raw materials. I find that it's best to only have 75% of the raw materials for any given magic item on the market at once, and the other 25% is something the PC has to spend downtime hunting for or going on an adventure for.

The best part is that those NPCs can be plot hooks for future adventures.

[Psyren]

Ah, right, forgot about that bit and only did a quick skim of the rules.

Pathfinder does introduce a whole 'nuther problem: unless you're optimized for Craft, you're going to fail some of those rolls, making magic items that much riskier, and trafficking in them that much more expensive. If you've got a client who ordered the item, great! They pay all the costs, plus 50% of full price. But good luck recouping your money selling a magic item you made for no client and blew the roll on a few times, especially if there's a competition.

Well, you could always hire a spellcaster to cooperate with you and keep you from bumping up the DC for requirements you can't meet. But honestly, crafting was much harder in 3.5 where you had to burn XP on your creations in addition to gold. Getting gold in 3.x is easy, xp was always much harder.

[GoddessSune]

General Rules: For the most part, only abjuration, divination and transmutation magic is the only type for sale. Almost no enchantment, illusion or necromancy is every for sale, except a couple safe ones. Destructive combat items are not for sale.



Three Types of Shops:
1.The first type of Magic Mart, and the most common is the low spell stuff. Simple, non combative spell effects of less then 3rd level.

2.The Trap. It's a classic in my game to find on Riff Off Street, the Shady Magic Shop. Often all dark inside, run by a lizard man, who will sell you any magic item, sight unseen, for money up front. And amazingly they are all fakes, frauds or cursed items.

3.The last is the high end Magic Shop. Often appointment only. You have to be someone to get in.

[Yahzi]

D&D is generally supposed to be a pseudo-medieval world. In that world, merchants were rare, dealing almost exclusively in imported items. These people are not going to advertise their wares; they will not have a glass storefront for window-shopping. Instead, they will contact you when they think a) they have something you want, and b) you can be trusted.

Lesser items (such as +1 weapons) that can be manufactured by 5th lvl clerics and wizards will be bought and sold by the people who make them. Robbing a 5th level wizard's shop is not usually going to be worth the trouble it causes with local authorities (unless your players are also robbing the local authorities, but then you have a different problem). Higher level items are made by higher level casters, and if you can rob a 12th level wizard's lair, you probably deserve a magic ring or two*.

*An oft-overlooked fact: making a ring requires caster level 12. So basically, for most kingdoms, that's going to be an imported artifact. And Pearls of Power? What 17th level is going to spend his time making 1,000 gp items? Those are things wizards make to improve their henchmen, not their pocketbooks.

[Clistenes]

Lesser items (such as +1 weapons) that can be manufactured by 5th lvl clerics and wizards will be bought and sold by the people who make them.

Even a "lesser" magic item like a +1 weapon costs so much as hiring a hundred 10-level kights for ten days. A +1 weapon would be something that only a rich noble could afford (to show off in tourneys, probably). The guy crafting +1 swords wouldn't be just a good artisan, he would be one of the most respected, better paid people in the kingdoms (he is paid so much for a day of work as five hundred 10 level knights, or 250 knights, if his patron provides the material resources).

Truth is, if you need something or somebody killed, it would be more cost-effective to hire those hundred level 10 knights than to buy a +1 weapon for your 3rd-level henchman.

[Rubik]

Truth is, if you need something or somebody killed, it would be more cost-effective to hire those hundred level 10 knights than to buy a +1 weapon for your 3rd-level henchman.And lo, the shadowpocalypse wiped out the campaign world for want of +1 swords.

[Doorhandle]

Character backstory: Merchant is stuck with tons of sweet gear but nobody is buying it, so he decks himself out with the best that he's got and goes to punch dragons for money.

... Best character ever.


Even a "lesser" magic item like a +1 weapon costs so much as hiring a hundred 10-level kights for ten days. A +1 weapon would be something that only a rich noble could afford (to show off in tourneys, probably). The guy crafting +1 swords wouldn't be just a good artisan, he would be one of the most respected, better paid people in the kingdoms (he is paid so much for a day of work as five hundred 10 level knights, or 250 knights, if his patron provides the material resources).

Truth is, if you need something or somebody killed, it would be more cost-effective to hire those hundred level 10 knights than to buy a +1 weapon for your 3rd-level henchman.

So that's why they're so rare...

Personally, the way I'd roll it is to have it so that even non-artefact magic items never really fall into an unusable state. Even a 1+ sword is much together than any mundane sword, so it could outlive the civilisation that made it, to say nothing of if it was let in a situation that would aid preservation.

The reason there would be so many swords on the market is because that's the looted collection of hundreds of cultures and the efforts of thousands of adventurers. Plus, not every noble would have dozens of knights within easy reach. If the world is more like ours, they'd probably be off in a joust or a tournament hunting, or crusading if they are not already in a war, and in D&D's world they're probably clearing the backyard of goblins or saving maidens from dragons on top of the above efforts.

Granted, that same noble isn't any more likely to have a mage or such a sword within purchasing reach, but it's food for thought.

Also: A supernaturally strong or rich civilisation (like the efreeti) would probably have a larger collection of such weapons because they would have the money spare to make them and their "knights" would be much more expensive if they were to remain capable of doing their jobs.

[Clistenes]

And lo, the shadowpocalypse wiped out the campaign world for want of +1 swords.

Magic Weapon is a first level spell.


So that's why they're so rare...

Personally, the way I'd roll it is to have it so that even non-artefact magic items never really fall into an unusable state. Even a 1+ sword is much together than any mundane sword, so it could outlive the civilisation that made it, to say nothing of if it was let in a situation that would aid preservation.

The reason there would be so many swords on the market is because that's the looted collection of hundreds of cultures and the efforts of thousands of adventurers. Plus, not every noble would have dozens of knights within easy reach. If the world is more like ours, they'd probably be off in a joust or a tournament hunting, or crusading if they are not already in a war, and in D&D's world they're probably clearing the backyard of goblins or saving maidens from dragons on top of the above efforts.

Granted, that same noble isn't any more likely to have a mage or such a sword within purchasing reach, but it's food for thought.

Also: A supernaturally strong or rich civilisation (like the efreeti) would probably have a larger collection of such weapons because they would have the money spare to make them and their "knights" would be much more expensive if they were to remain capable of doing their jobs.

That's pretty much how I think it should be: Most magic items come from ancient ruins, burial sites or are heirlooms from noble or royal families, and most of the rest are brought by extraplanar merchants.

The only problem is, the excess of supply should push down the price of magical items far below the cost of creating them (since the market would be saturated with ancient +1 swords) so I guess there aren't really that many +1 swords around.

[Psyren]

Magic Weapon is a first level spell.

Indeed. A +1 magic sword is 2000gp; an oil of magic weapon is 50gp. The math is pretty easy from there.

[Deophaun]

And Pearls of Power? What 17th level is going to spend his time making 1,000 gp items?
More than you might think. In the time it takes to make a 10,000 gp item, a crafter can make 10 1,000 gp items. Seeing how the price of items is calculated, a wizard is likely going to get more utility out of the 10 1,000 gp items than from the single 10,000 gp item. I doubt your average high-level wizard is firing off his high-level slots on a daily basis. But low level spells--unseen servants to clean the castle, divinations to find his missing spectacles, scholar's touch for quick research, or knock to force open that door that keeps warping--those are a matter of course.

So yeah, that 17th level wizard could take 81 days to make a single 9th level pearl of power... but I'd place more money on him taking half that time to make a bunch of 1st through 4th pearls, if he hasn't already done so.

And if you're commissioning him, his profit margin is the same per day's effort whether he's making a 1st level pearl or a 9th. It's all the same to him.

[Psyren]

Note that the CL 17 in the 1st-level pearl of power is not the CL required to make one. There was a lengthy clarification on this posted by Paizo.

[Jack_Simth]

This is, indeed, a giant stupid problem with D&D 3.X.Kinda.

Magic items are a thing in fantasy. Basically every DM of a fantasy game is going to incorporate magical items into the game, whether the game is designed around it or not. Players will accumulate them.

In 1st and 2nd edition, the game designers designed the game without magic items in mind - they existed, but they were supposed to be rare, special, and your character was expected to be able to operate without them.

They got a lot of feedback that their published magic items were unbalancing games, and that there were no real guidelines on their use.

In 3rd+, the game designers designed the game with an expectation of a certain amount of magic items. Yes, this caused certain flavour changes that lots of people sorely dislike. Beats the alternative, though.



I have a few problems with the magic mart concept. First, who's providing security for these items? The PCs pretty quickly get to a point where they could easily rob the magic shops blind and get away with it. Unless, of course, the owner of the shop is even higher level than them... In which case, why isn't that guy going out and saving the world, instead of us?
Ah, but the magic items aren't out front (or those that are out front are cursed to the point that you wouldn't want them anyway). The shopkeeper takes your order (from the catalogue he keeps on his desk) and your money, puts them in a specially-cursed portable hole (it ejects its contents after three rounds, but is oddly safe for other forms of extra-dimensional storage), and tosses it through a Ring Gate.

On the other end of the Ring Gate, a golem picks up the paper and holds it up (along with the payment), a Wizard in a secure warehouse reads the order through a spyglass, checks the money, and has a golem fetch things from the shelves, put them in the same cursed portable hole, and throw them back through the Ring Gate.

If the shoppkeeper is buying stuff from you, it works the same way - into the hole, through the gate, the Wizard ID's it with Analyze Dweomer, shelves and catalogues things while the Golem fetches the gold, puts it in the cursed portable hole, and sends it back through the gate.

The one warehouse services many shops (anything within range of a Ring Gate... and that can be easily extended via multiple gates). The warehouse, being set up for authorized personel only, is trapped up the wazoo (and careful arrangement and mounting means that you do not have direct line of effect to anything important through a stolen Ring Gate), and the same golems that do fetching & carrying also serve as guards. The majority of the items were not built to order for sale - they just ended up for sale due to people killing the prior owners, deciding they didn't want them, and selling them to the store. The shoppkeeper is a 3rd level expert, at best. He's also salaried (not commissioned), and it's in the best interests of the high-level Wizard running this to arrange for 'examples' of anyone who harasses his employees.





Second, it really diminishes some iconic monsters. Back in second edition, a dragon's hoard was huge: Once the party had slain a dragon, they could pretty much afford anything money could buy. But this wasn't a problem for game balance, because most things you'd want by that point, money couldn't buy. In third edition, though, with the way WBL is integrated into the game, this is no longer possible. Have you ever calculated the size of the hoard of a 3rd edition dragon? You'd have a hard time making a bed for a human out of that much gold.

Personally, what I'd do is to put a shop in decent-sized cities that sells minor magic items (maybe up to as much as +1 or so). Then, in the biggest city in the realm, there'd be a magical consignment shop. You could bring items to that guy, and he'd keep an ear out for potential buyers. Or tell him what you're looking for, and he'd look out for potential sellers and contact you. For a price in either case, of course. Any items you're selling with him, you're responsible for securing: If he gets robbed, so sorry.

Meanwhile, the DM should be meeting most of the party's wealth needs directly through treasure. When the party gets to the point where a +3 weapon is appropriate, about then one of the enemies the characters face drops one. This also allows the DM to tweak the party balance some on the fly: If the casters are outperforming the warriors, the drops start including less spellbooks and metamagic rods, and start including more weapons and armor. If the wizard is upset with that, he can go to the consignment shop, pay his commission, and hope to get the custom items he wants. This option should be available, but it should be expensive enough that the party should seriously consider keeping their random loot, even if it's not quite exactly what they wanted.
As I said: It has some flavour issues that lots of people dislike.


My response, and to the second part; because its just not worth the hassle.
... then you've got the flavour issue of "Why does the person running this bother? They've got a wish-farm that can instantly get them anything they want. Including the cash that they're selling the stuff to get."


Note that the CL 17 in the 1st-level pearl of power is not the CL required to make one. There was a lengthy clarification on this posted by Paizo.
Not that anything Paizo says only applies to Pathfinder.

[tyckspoon]

Not that anything Paizo says only applies to Pathfinder.

It's true of 3.5 as well. A magic item's default Caster Level is *not* a prerequisite to make it.

[Gavinfoxx]

... then you've got the flavour issue of "Why does the person running this bother? They've got a wish-farm that can instantly get them anything they want. Including the cash that they're selling the stuff to get."


Because the entities doing this aren't human. They are magical creatures of law, and are probably led by a deity who is following her portfolio by setting up exactly this thing, and have a vested interest in stabilizing this sort of resource.

[Rhynn]

Beats the alternative, though.

As a player of BECM, AD&D 2E, and D&D 3.0 and 3.5, no, no it doesn't. The old approach is easily superior, in my experience. Some people may have had problems, but they caused them.

Besides, the games were full of guidelines for how frequent magic items should be. They're called treasure types.


Magic items are a thing in fantasy. Basically every DM of a fantasy game is going to incorporate magical items into the game, whether the game is designed around it or not. Players will accumulate them.

Red herring. Countless fantasy RPGs handle magic items better than D&D 3.X. RuneQuest, ACKS (or just about any retroclone), HârnMaster, Rolemaster/MERP, WFRP (1E/2E)...

[gondrizzle]

I hate the whole Magic Mart idea. Any magical item that costs more than about 100gp might as well be read "not for sale" in my games. Magic items are available, but not for "just" gold.

You do favors, you barter, but you can't just buy them. For the "heavy" magical items (enchanted arms and armor, and ESPECIALLY rings) there is no such thing as a "generic" item, either.

My campaign world has an arcane-caster mutual deterrence treaty, though, so getting involved in the politics of the mundane world is very dangerous for them. I also enforce the XP costs, which is why magical items don't get sold very often.

I balance around it, though, by making all magic items special. Your hypothetical "Bastard Sword +2" or whatever would translate to my campaign as a sort of pseudo minor artifact, which would grow with the character who owns it, subject to some plot requirements.

My attitude really belongs more with older editions where magic items aren't very common, but my players like it and it seems to work.

I've always found that the logical extension of the insane amount of magic 3.5 seems to imply leads to a ridiculous magicocracy world like the Tippyverse. Which is cool as hell, but not the kind of campaign world I would want to run.

[nobodez]

I hate the whole Magic Mart idea. Any magical item that costs more than about 100gp might as well be read "not for sale" in my games. Magic items are available, but not for "just" gold.

You do favors, you barter, but you can't just buy them. For the "heavy" magical items (enchanted arms and armor, and ESPECIALLY rings) there is no such thing as a "generic" item, either.

My campaign world has an arcane-caster mutual deterrence treaty, though, so getting involved in the politics of the mundane world is very dangerous for them. I also enforce the XP costs, which is why magical items don't get sold very often.

I balance around it, though, by making all magic items special. Your hypothetical "Bastard Sword +2" or whatever would translate to my campaign as a sort of pseudo minor artifact, which would grow with the character who owns it, subject to some plot requirements.

My attitude really belongs more with older editions where magic items aren't very common, but my players like it and it seems to work.

I've always found that the logical extension of the insane amount of magic 3.5 seems to imply leads to a ridiculous magicocracy world like the Tippyverse. Which is cool as hell, but not the kind of campaign world I would want to run.

While I understand this viewpoint, and as long as you allow the characters to no by restricted by the choices you give them, then this is a perfectly kromulet method.

Myself, I like Eberron and Dragonstar, settings where magic (and technology, though more in the latter than the former) is prevalent to a point where you don't have to explain how the magic got there.

The most important thing is, as a DM, is to enforce the GP value limits from the DMG. A hamlet of 300 people will only have items of maximum value of 100 gp, and only 300 gp of total value (either to buy or sell) on hand. Plus, the DMG only says "Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available …" but as the DM, you can limit it, so if the hamlet doesn't have that high a level of wizard, then you won't have any selection of scrolls available. You need to be in at least a large town of two to five thousand people to even have the possibility of finding a magical weapon available, and even then, you still have the same total gp conversion limit (1/2 max value times 1/10 population, so 1500 gp times 200, or 150,000 gp, for that large town of 2000, but then, how much of that might belong to the 7th to 19th level commoner, the 6th to 15th level expert, or the 5th to 11th level warrior?

Also, make sure that you make them take time to find what they're looking for, and possibly make skill checks (Diplomacy most likely, but other skills, depending on whom might be the source of the item) to get the item at the price they want (they might be able to get it if they fail, but the price might be higher, since the NPC is less willing to part with their magic item).

Another option is to just decouple magic items from the mundane economy. This has been mentioned a few times in this thread already. Just combine the Craft Points system from Unearthed Arcana with the Disenchant Magic Item ritual from (*gasp*) Fourth Edition. Throw in the Resizing ability of the Enchant Magic Item ritual, and you've got everything you need. Just make sure that the DMI ritual creates Craft Points rather than Residuum (at perhaps a similar level to selling magic items, including any appropriate skill checks if you use them for getting more or less than 50% value). Make the DMI ritual a Skill Trick for Knowledge: Arcana, and make sure your players know that it's the only way to get magic items aside from random drops, and you'll have them dropping points in Knowledge: Arcana in no time (though make sure that any value adjustment skill check is based off of a different skill, like Appraise or something). This way you can give your PCs the piles of gold that Dragons should have if following in Smaug's footsteps (paw-steps? claw-steps?), without breaking the magical nature of WBL.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Here's how I run the magic item trade in my games. Taken from a thread on magic item shop security:
I'm with the crowd saying a stockpile of highly valuable magical items all in a 'shop' doesn't make any sense.

You can get minor magic items (as in DMG table 7-27) by going to one of a number of local guilds, unions, or confederacies or even the odd noble house, depending on what exactly it is you're looking for; e.g. the mercanary companies have surplus arms and armor, usually looted from dungeons or off of targets, to supplement funding from jobs, likewise with the thieves guild for your more larcenous tools but not the loot because they have to fence that stuff asap to actually make a profit, the exploration confederacy sells items useful for travel and exploration as well as bits and bobs from the latest expedition that they haven't traded away yet, and the wizard's tower or temple of the god of commerce or artifice will have a broad selection of a bit of everything as well as the tools of the spellcasting trade and can have initiate members craft items on request. None of them will have a standing stockpile though, only a few, mostly random items that they're more likely to trade than to sell.

A +1 weapon is worth 40 trade-bars worth of gold. Nobody except money changers, trading companies, and governments traffic in that kind of cash. The above mentioned companies and guilds will -trade- you their goods for your loot and old equipment and will accept cash if you've got it, but -none- of them will give you cash for your crap unless it's something that they'll have a serious use for. They're going to immediately sell your old stuff to one or another trading company for cash for their own use.

The trading companies don't keep anything at the local office at all and don't do trade in minor items with individuals from the general public. They facilitate the exchange of those goods between the various companies and guilds and supply the governments with items in quantity immensely faster than the governments' crafters can make them. They will, however, deal with individuals for the exchange of intermediate and major magic items as brokers.

The only shops that actually keep a stockpile of magical goods are potion brewers. They don't worry about thieves because their whole stock is labeled in code, the key to which is either stored somewhere very secure after hours or only exists in the shop owner's head. There's also the factor of potions being pretty much unsellable by anyone but the guy who makes them. This is because there's no way to know if the potion you're being sold second-hand is what the seller says it is because he almost certainly didn't make it and if he stole it he might not even know what it is. If you rob a potion maker's shop the best you're going to get is a couple scrolls of spells that aren't on the shopkeeper's list, maybe a schema of a spell for a particularly popular potion, and a crap-ton of potions that you'll have to identify and can't sell. You might also get a few alchemical items, but noone cares about that.

This amounts to WBL and the the community gp limits and ready cash values still being useable (I tend to hand-wave it unless they're looking for something strange) but the magic item trade still making some degree of in-game sense.

[Rhynn]

Not wanting to side-track the conversation, but Smaugian piles of gold are a pipe-dream, basically. We did this discussion a while back, and I actually did the math on volume. Gold is really dense, and even in D&D, really valuable by weight. 100,000 gp is only 2,000 lbs. in D&D 3.X. Gold is 0.697256736 lbs. per cubic inch. Assuming that coins are 50% inefficient (e.g. the pile ends up twice as big as a solid block), that's ~5737 cubic inches, or a hunk ~18 inches to a side. That's 1½' (45cm) to a side. Gold is that heavy.

A million gold pieces would be a pile ~39 inches (a bit over 3 feet, about 99cm) to a side.

This (http://www.usacoinbook.com/us-coins/gold-bar-1-kilo.jpg) is a 1 kg (2.2 lbs.) gold bar. 110,000 gp could be made up of 1000 (a stack 10 high, 10 wide, and 10 deep) of those.

Kinda off-topic, but there we go... and dragon hoards can still be extremely hard to transport because of weight; especially if, say, half of it is made up of silver pieces (100,000gp would turn into 11,000 lbs.!).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not wanting to side-track the conversation, but Smaugian piles of gold are a pipe-dream, basically. We did this discussion a while back, and I actually did the math on volume. Gold is really dense, and even in D&D, really valuable by weight. 100,000 gp is only 2,000 lbs. in D&D 3.X. Gold is 0.697256736 lbs. per cubic inch. Assuming that coins are 50% inefficient (e.g. the pile ends up twice as big as a solid block), that's ~5737 cubic inches, or a hunk ~18 inches to a side. That's 1½' (45cm) to a side. Gold is that heavy.

A million gold pieces would be a pile ~39 inches (a bit over 3 feet, about 99cm) to a side.

This (http://www.usacoinbook.com/us-coins/gold-bar-1-kilo.jpg) is a 1 kg (2.2 lbs.) gold bar. 110,000 gp could be made up of 1000 (a stack 10 high, 10 wide, and 10 deep) of those.

Kinda off-topic, but there we go... and dragon hoards can still be extremely hard to transport because of weight; especially if, say, half of it is made up of silver pieces (100,000gp would turn into 11,000 lbs.!).

Did you guys assume that the gold in question was nothing but pure, elemental gold?

That seems like it would be a mistake to me. Whenever gold was used in ye olden days it was almost always a mostly gold alloy. I started to do the calculations using (I think it was) 24 karat gold; 2 parts gold, 1 part each of silver and copper. Got interrupted and never got around to finishing.

[Gildedragon]

A way to bulk up your coins is by mixing copper into them.

Also, throwing in things like armor, alchemical gold weapons, normal gold-leaf and gold-wire ornamented objects can bulk up your golden object horde significantly. Smaugian still takes some work as it is merely 3,156,000 in coins at most; this is turning all art objects and magic items into cash.

[Rhynn]

Did you guys assume that the gold in question was nothing but pure, elemental gold?

That seems like it would be a mistake to me. Whenever gold was used in ye olden days it was almost always a mostly gold alloy. I started to do the calculations using (I think it was) 24 karat gold; 2 parts gold, 1 part each of silver and copper. Got interrupted and never got around to finishing.

We're talking about orders of magnitude, here: you'd need billions of gold pieces to make up hoards big enough for dragons hundreds of feet long to sleep on. 2 parts gold, 1 part silver gets us to a density of 16.363333 g/cubic cm... instead of 19.4 g/cubic cm, or ~0.59 pounds/cubic inch. That comes out to ~6780 cubic inches for 2,000 pounds at "50% inefficiency," which is a cube 18.9 inches to side. So a change of 5% on each side of the cube.

Even if we increase inefficiency, we're still not going to see even a human bed-sized pile of gold at 100,000 gp, or 1,000,000 gp.

Edit: Heck, let's take silver's density: either this is pure silver (maybe the setting uses a silver standard, which I always found to make more sense anyway), or it's gold heavily debased with even less valuable metals.

10.49 g/cu. cm is 0.37897... or ~0.379 lbs/cu. in.

Let's make coins even more inefficient: they fill up four times the usual space (I seriously doubt that is accurate, but here we go). 1,000,000 such coins weigh 20,000 lbs.

This gets us an impressive (?) 211,081.79... cubic inches. That's 59.54... inches to a side. 1,000,000 silver coins / debased gold coins, which take up four times the space of solid blocks of metal, come out to a volume that fits in a cube 5 feet to a side.

This is getting somewhere! If we halve that, it's 2½ feet high, 5 feet wide, and 10 feet long. That's a (human) king-sized bed! A Medium, maybe even a Large dragon could lie on it.

Now, how many coins are in this (http://www.philpeel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/the-hobbit.jpg) pile?

[Mystral]

In 3rd edition cannon faerun, there is a whole faction whose theme is magic mart. The red wizards of thay, who use slave labour and the work of their apprentices to corner the market in cheap magic items in high demand. In a land where there are this many adventurers, there is more then enough of a market for common magical items, like +1 weapons and armour or minor wondrous items.

[Gildedragon]

We're talking about orders of magnitude, here: you'd need billions of gold pieces to make up hoards big enough for dragons hundreds of feet long to sleep on. 2 parts gold, 1 part silver gets us to a density of 16.363333 g/cubic cm... instead of 19.4 g/cubic cm, or ~0.59 pounds/cubic inch. That comes out to ~6780 cubic inches for 2,000 pounds at "50% inefficiency," which is a cube 18.9 inches to side. So a change of 5% on each side of the cube.

Even if we increase inefficiency, we're still not going to see even a human bed-sized pile of gold at 100,000 gp, or 1,000,000 gp.

Edit: Heck, let's take silver's density: either this is pure silver (maybe the setting uses a silver standard, which I always found to make more sense anyway), or it's gold heavily debased with even less valuable metals.


That's a lot of coins. But the occasional sword implies there's some bulky iron items there. Now swapping the material to mostly copper would reduce the density of the coins.

[Rhynn]

The density of copper is 8.96 g/cu. cm, which is close enough to that of silver that I'm just gonna say "it makes no difference" and "you do the math this time." The difference between gold and silver was almost 50% (down from gold) and look at the results; the difference between silver and copper is only 15% (down from silver).

[Rubik]

That's a lot of coins. But the occasional sword implies there's some bulky iron items there. Now swapping the material to mostly copper would reduce the density of the coins.With the sole exception of copper dragons, what self-respecting draconic overlord would sleep on such base metals?

[CRtwenty]

Did you guys assume that the gold in question was nothing but pure, elemental gold?

That seems like it would be a mistake to me. Whenever gold was used in ye olden days it was almost always a mostly gold alloy. I started to do the calculations using (I think it was) 24 karat gold; 2 parts gold, 1 part each of silver and copper. Got interrupted and never got around to finishing.

There's also the fact that most PCs who have hundreds of thousands of GP to spend are probably lugging it around in some sort of extra dimensional storage space where its weight and volume isn't much of an issue.

Also at high levels I've seen many cases of PCs switching over to gems, since they take up less space. Paying in actual GP at that point would be like buying high value jewelry in pennies.

[Rhynn]

Really smart PCs just carry letters of credit. Credit is an old, old idea.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A really smart adventurer realizes in the mid-levels that money holds relatively little value and starts working with other powerful individuals as and for favors instead.

[CRtwenty]

A really smart adventurer realizes in the mid-levels that money holds relatively little value and starts working with other powerful individuals as and for favors instead.

For magic items and other things, but cash is still useful for building your base and paying your hirelings, some of whom may be able to craft items for you themselves.

[Coidzor]

I have to admit, usually we just use abstraction when shopping in a large municipality during downtime or out and out commission custom items from a crafter.

Call us crazy, but we generally don't find getting one's +1 sword upgraded to a +1 valorous sword all that interesting when it's competing for session time with advancing the plot.

[Krobar]

First, I don't have Ye Olde Magick Shoppe in every city and village across the land. Potions and scrolls can be found in a lot of places, but only the bigger cities have shops wherein more significant items can be purchased or sold. Second, those shops are run by the Mage's Guilds and are protected by the Thieves' Guilds who get a cut of sales.

If someone were to be foolish enough to steal from one, they're immediately going to have two powerful guilds after them, as well as the authorities. These facts are well-known in my campaign world.

[rexreg]

in my world, many potions & scrolls are available for purchase, perhaps through a Church or Thieves' Guild, for example.
Across the continent the players are exploring there might be 2-3 places that could be considered "Magic Marts"; arcane schools & Thieves' Guilds in the largest cities fall into this category. That being said, it will always be easier to find a +2 longsword than a matching pair of +1 ooze-bane rapiers.
At times, certain races might be sources of magic...assuming the party is on very, very good terms w/ that race. Dwarves make great armor...getting them to sell it to you might be a different issue.
By the time a group hits 10th-ish level, any magic items to be purchased oftentimes must be commissioned. This means forking out a large sum of money up-front & then waiting several weeks whilst the item is made.
Selling magic items is easy...33%-50% of list price. But, if one were to bring in 20 +1 short swords, the price/sword just went down significantly.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I have to admit, usually we just use abstraction when shopping in a large municipality during downtime or out and out commission custom items from a crafter.

Call us crazy, but we generally don't find getting one's +1 sword upgraded to a +1 valorous sword all that interesting when it's competing for session time with advancing the plot.

Yeah, that is one reason why the default rules on what magic items you can find in cities of a given size are useful. "This is a metropolis? Okay, I go buy a +3 longsword."

It might be helpful to introduce a merchant guild or NPC early on in a campaign who can help the PCs spend their money later. Then you can say, "I'm going to pay for a sending to Orrin and ask him how soon he can get me a +3 longsword."

[Tvtyrant]

I'll admit that I always have a magic shop. It might be affixed to a temple and only sell church approved items, but every town has one. Even most villages have some sort of peddler going through with lower end magic items, or an adept who makes them as a cottage industry to offset the costs of farming.

I also frequently have banking systems set up that will lend people money to buy such items in return for interest or services rendered. A high level adventurer might borrow several hundred million coins worth to buy an epic staff, but in return they have to kill a political figure who is taxing them to much.

[ShriekingDrake]

I typically try to help my players have a sense of wonder about their items. I want them to feel connected to at least some of the items they find. I will often improve the items over time. A +1 sword will become a +2 sword after a time; it may gain other abilities. Players (and characters) can have a sense of a legendary pairing of character and item. I know there's a book that does exactly this kind of thing, I've got my own way of doing it. Anyway, Im still not hot on the magic marts, but I do appreciate all the interesting comments that have emerged through this thread.

[Cheiromancer]

I will often improve the items over time. A +1 sword will become a +2 sword after a time; it may gain other abilities. Players (and characters) can have a sense of a legendary pairing of character and item. I know there's a book that does exactly this kind of thing, I've got my own way of doing it.

I think this is the right way to go about it. It also fits in well with the "abstraction" idea of Coidzor, an idea that Thomar_of_Uointer also seems to endorse. The biggest problems people seem to have with magic shops involve the security and economic issues they raise. It makes sense to eliminate magic shops entirely, except maybe for some that sell potions and similar low level chargeable items.

I like the idea of items growing in power, hopefully in a way that allows player agency. That is, if they are of a level that their WBL indicates they should have a +2 sword, they can 'discover' a new +1 ability in the +1 sword they already have. I don't really have a good way of going about this, aside from treating WBL in a completely abstract way. But that raises questions about what to do with unwanted magic items that otherwise tie up WBL. And if your items 'grow' automatically, it raises the question of why anyone would ever take the feats to craft magic items.

[Psyren]

And if your items 'grow' automatically, it raises the question of why anyone would ever take the feats to craft magic items.

Should they have to? I would personally only want players to take those feats if being a craftsman/artisan is important to their character, not in order to gain the baseline effectiveness of their WBL. In other words, I would expect a character like a Battlesmith or Ironsoul Forgemaster to be taking crafting feats, and if they did, I would channel most of the party's items through that person so they feel useful - but in the absence of such a party member, I would provide some other way for the players to get the items they need, even ways of customizing or combining items. I would want the psion to have psionic items, the binder to have binding tools and the incarnum-users to have incarnum items without having to (a) scale a mountaintop to find the one other practitioner in the world of their unique abilities or (b) sink half their build into becoming that person.

[Alienist]

Ah, right, forgot about that bit and only did a quick skim of the rules.

Pathfinder does introduce a whole 'nuther problem: unless you're optimized for Craft, you're going to fail some of those rolls, making magic items that much riskier, and trafficking in them that much more expensive. If you've got a client who ordered the item, great! They pay all the costs, plus 50% of full price. But good luck recouping your money selling a magic item you made for no client and blew the roll on a few times, especially if there's a competition.

This isn't really any different from being a 3.5 Artificer, except that the Artificer's DCs are enormously much higher.

Also, I don't see anything saying that the pathfinder item creator can't just 'take 10' on the roll.