[3.5] Lawfull Good Cleric/Necromancer Questions

[A.A.King]

I'm thinking about creating a Lawful Good Cleric of Wee Jas with as Domains "Death" and "Magic". The idea behind the character is simple. He is a Doctor, a man of science, who studies the dead to save the living. As a cleric he believes in the sanctity of the soul but as a man of science he believes the body has no family once its owner has died and moved on. The reason he became a cleric of Wee Jas and not a god like Pelor who offers you the Healing Domain is because he believes that, in the long run, the study of death itself will help mankind pros pone it more effectively then simple short term healing. This is how he is supposed to combine being Good with creating undead and controlling them.

The question is, can I? Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are all "Evil" spells and I know that Good clerics can't cast Evil spells. I'm just wondering if either

Exceptions are made by the rules (not house rules) for spells which are also domain spells with the result being that I am able to prepare them normally like any other spells.
I can't prepare them as normal cleric spells but I can prepare them as my domain spell, resulting in only being allowed to use them once a day each (and if that is the case, could someone also tell me if that would be enough uses per day to make it worth my while)
I can't prepare them at all not even in my Domain Slot, in which case the question becomes if it would be reasonable to ask for a house ruling stating that the spell isn't "Evil" because my character doesn't see the act as evil.


I'm not trying to create something that is "the best way", just something that is fun but still adequate. I also like to play as much by the rules as possible, only using house rules for situations not covered by the rules or which are technically covered but clearly weren't the kind of situation the writers had in mind when they said "You may never do X". So the question basically becomes, if the worst case scenario is true (that Evil spells may not be prepared by Good Clerics, not even as Domain Spell):

Is the "Evil" mentioned a Universal Norm, or just the average opinion? Does it mean you can't prepare spells the people tell you are "evil" or only not the spells which you as "good" cleric believe are "evil"?

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that you're stuck being completely incapable of casting evil spells, whether they're in your domain slot or not. I'd probably go the house rule path. I've always thought that the thing about animating dead being intrinsically evil was dumb anyway. Otherwise, you could always go lawful neutral.

[Xuldarinar]

As a divine spellcaster, you cannot cast spells opposed to your alignment.


But! The hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II has the following racial:

Evil Exception (Ex): Regardless of alignment or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor and never gains negative levels while wielding evil magic items, such as unholy weapons or demon armor. This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct. For example, using a +1 unholy longsword to slay orcs would not violate a hellbred paladin's code of conduct, though using the weapon to kill another paladin would.

[A.A.King]

I was afraid of that. Feels annoying though, that they offer Domains to alignments who can't use it to its fullest

Hellbred sounds like an interesting option, I will definitely look into that.

[Coidzor]

IIRC, domain spells get around the usual restrictions on clerics casting spells of the opposite alignment.

Anyway, you should probably have a chat with your DM about the Tome of Necromancy (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248) and mindless undead/negative energy being evil.

Create Undead and its greater variant can be evil without animate dead being evil.

[A.A.King]

IIRC, domain spells get around the usual restrictions on clerics casting spells of the opposite alignment.

Anyway, you should probably have a chat with your DM about the Tome of Necromancy (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=34248) and mindless undead/negative energy being evil.

Create Undead and its greater variant can be evil without animate dead being evil.

Sorry, I don't know what IIRC means, so what I'm about to ask may be stupid but: do you have a source for the ruling which states that domain spells get around the usual restrictions, or just generally explain to me why I didn't see it as such immediately myself?

[eggynack]

Sorry, I don't know what IIRC means, so what I'm about to ask may be stupid but: do you have a source for the ruling which states that domain spells get around the usual restrictions, or just generally explain to me why I didn't see it as such immediately myself?
It means "if I recall correctly". I don't really have other stuff to say, so I shall now stop saying stuff.

[ArcturusV]

IIRC: "If I recall correctly".

I don't know if it actually covers the alignment split. I know the general rule is "You can cast domain spells even if they are not normally available to you". But they also have rules for things like you can't have the Evil domain without being Evil, etc. So they probably never really thought "What if a Good person had a domain with an Evil spell?"

But it probably works out that way since there are a lot of Good Gods with domains that include spells like Deathwatch which have the [Evil] tag.

[A.A.King]

Thanks for explain IIRC eggynack and Arcturus V

And I like to think that domain spells will be available even if they are not normally available, and the fact that evil spells can appear on a Good God's domain's spell list helps with that but what it actually says is

"If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot." (PHB p. 180)
And the rule which forbids me to cast Evil Spells says:
"A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one)." (PHB p. 33)

It doesn't say that it removes from the spell list, it just says you can't cast them and the Domain Spell rule just says I can prepare them even if not on my list. But it doesn't say I can cast what I otherwise couldn't cast. Then again, why allow someone to prepare something he can't cast?

Maybe I'm over thinking it too much and the DM certainly isn't the problem, I just need to be able to sell to him. Something which I should be able to do now thanks to all the help. But I just like to get it right. I don't want to play something I feel is inherently flawed if you look at the rules of the world, even if my DM doesn't see it like that. So I'm just looking for an absolutely convincing argument

[eggynack]

Thanks for explain IIRC eggynack and Arcturus V

And I like to think that domain spells will be available even if they are not normally available, and the fact that evil spells can appear on a Good God's domain's spell list helps with that but what it actually says is

"If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot." (PHB p. 180)
And the rule which forbids me to cast Evil Spells says:
"A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one)." (PHB p. 33)

It doesn't say that it removes from the spell list, it just says you can't cast them and the Domain Spell rule just says I can prepare them even if not on my list. But it doesn't say I can cast what I otherwise couldn't cast. Then again, why allow someone to prepare something he can't cast?

Maybe I'm over thinking it too much and the DM certainly isn't the problem, I just need to be able to sell to him. Something which I should be able to do now thanks to all the help. But I just like to get it right. I don't want to play something I feel is inherently flawed if you look at the rules of the world, even if my DM doesn't see it like that. So I'm just looking for an absolutely convincing argument
By that logic, I don't see what's necessarily stopping you from preparing any evil spell, even if you can't subsequently cast it. I think you're probably best off just saying that you want to play a good cleric necromancer, and seeing if the DM's OK with it. I don't think this is the kinda problem that you can solve within the rules, unless they're really obscure and weird rules.

[A.A.King]

That's absolutely true, I didn't think about how distinguishing between being allowed to prepare and being allowed to cast would effect normal (non-domain slot) preparing and casting.

In that case the most logical answer to my original question is that I'm allowed to prepare my "Evil" Domain spells even though I'm a Good Cleric as long as it's in my Domain slot. And maybe, if the DM allows it as such, to simply not consider those spells as Evil at all (but even if not, the domain slot should suffice)
I thank everyone for helping me out. I can now finally work the idea out in greater details :smallsmile:

[Xuldarinar]

If you want to be a good necromancer, but of any race, then I suggest the Deathless Domain from Eberron Campaign Setting.

[Psyren]

For example, using a +1 unholy longsword to slay orcs would not violate a hellbred paladin's code of conduct, though using the weapon to kill another paladin would.

I really hate that line, because it implies that killing orcs is always okay regardless of circumstance. I know they probably didn't mean it that way but still.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in that LG and necromancy are both a-okay in Wee Jas' book, so combining the two should be as well. Though as others have stated you'll likely have to handwave the Evil descriptor from most necromancy spells, or be Hellbred.

[fishyfishyfishy]

If your DM doesn't allow this as a reasonable houserule you can just be Lawful Neutral.