tactics/systems to get players involved in worldbuilding

[Almaseti]

I am an aspiring GM, and I would like to run a game but none of the existing settings appeal to me that much, but I also don't want to create a whole new one by myself. I'd much rather offload some of that onto my players and let them design some of the world for me. I am hoping that will also help get them invested in the world so they don't just default to murder-hoboing.

My main familiarity is with 3.5/PF, but I would be willing to consider an alternative system if it would help accomplish what I'm looking for.

Any advice?

[Iku Rex]

Sounds like you want Dawn of Worlds: http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/rpg/Dawn_of_Worlds_game_1_0Final.pdf .

I haven't tried it myself, but here's a review: http://www.gnomestew.com/tools-for-gms/collaborative-world-building-dawn-of-worlds/ .

[Almaseti]

That looks potentially interesting, I'll have to read it through!

[Thrudd]

I am an aspiring GM, and I would like to run a game but none of the existing settings appeal to me that much, but I also don't want to create a whole new one by myself. I'd much rather offload some of that onto my players and let them design some of the world for me. I am hoping that will also help get them invested in the world so they don't just default to murder-hoboing.

My main familiarity is with 3.5/PF, but I would be willing to consider an alternative system if it would help accomplish what I'm looking for.

Any advice?

Check out the game called Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth and it's supplement, Aria:Worlds. The game is no longer being published, AFAIK, it came out in the mid 90's, but it might still be around. This had some great ideas for world building, including involving the players in cooperative world building sessions. In terms of actual game mechanics it was difficult, the books are not well organized and very wordy, high concept stuff. But the ideas can easily be applied to creating a setting for any fantasy game, really, if you are willing to wade through the dense chapters. It was a great help to me in fleshing out my D&D campaign world. I actually also ran a game of Aria for a little while, before my group broke up after highschool, where the setting and its races were partly created by the players. It was fun just creating the fantasy world together, which we spent more time on than actually RP'ing with individual characters.

The basic idea is to have each player create a race or society of some sort (which will necessarily include the general environment in which this society exists), and then discuss amongst yourselves how those societies might interact and where they are located relative to eachother. If you were playing D&D and using the D&D base races and classes as a template, they could start with a player character idea, and then build backwards from there, creating details of the character's home and family and community. Or they could start with the larger society idea, a tribe or city or religion, and then create a character who fits within it. As the GM, you will need to create the world map, placing the different environments the players create within it in a logical manner (the players could have input into this as well, it is really up to you). Then discuss how the different groups and races interact with eachother, if at all. You can collaboratively come up with a little bit of history for this world. Was there a big war in the past? A natural disaster or some other defining event that all people know about? One thing I think is important to establish for your world up-front, is how magic and magic-users work, what place it and they occupy in society, and having an outline of any deities and religions. For a somewhat standard D&D setting, a second part of the world-building may be to have each player create a deity or supernatural force and a religion of some sort, and then decide how they interact in relation to the people and environments created thus far. Depending on what sort of world you come up with, monster societies may be created with help from the players as well, giving each of them one monster race to detail. Or they could be added ad-hoc as the campaign demands, and the mystery of what they are and where they came from be a part of the story (it is not necessary that goblins, orcs, trolls, etc be common sights in your fantasy world, maybe they are creatures that have only recently started to appear mysteriously and threaten civilization). As the GM, of course it is your job to expand the borders of the world as necessary, add some more options and flesh out the history and some details so that it all comes together, and each of the playable character options in the game is able to fit into the world in a logical way. After the initial jump-start sessions where all the players are involved, I think you will find it easier to continue the world-building on your own, creating more detail and adding new areas and groups to interact with as needed for the game. If you're like me, you might start to like the world-building as much as the actual playing. The good thing about this method is, it will give you some ideas for adventure hooks right away, and will let you start playing without an extended period of time creating your own fantasy world from the top down. Although a ready made setting may be more consistent from the get-go, it can be fun to discover the world at the same time the players do, and let it create itself organically through play. You can put off describing in detail other continents, exotic races, cosmology, planes of existence, etc. until the story needs it (which will happen as the characters become higher level, so try to stay ahead of it by anticipating the types of things they will be capable of a few levels in advance).

[Geostationary]

If you're willing to start with some setting elements and try a game with a rotating GM role, Mystic Empyrean (http://www.mysticempyrean.com/) could be a good choice. You play quasi-deific beings called Eidolons who are literally rebuilding the world. It rotates GM based in part on who built what parts of the setting, and the person who "owns" that part generally gets final say about it. It also uses a card-based resolution system, but it has alternate rules for diced play.

[Almaseti]

Aria seems pretty obscure, but I've found a few interesting things to look at. It seems like a lot of it is making the worldbuilding into a game, which is a really cool concept, though it sort of risks invalidating what planning I have done, though I suppose I could just take what the players make and advance things forward a century or two to get the starting scenario I wanted* if I can just get everyone on board to to the worldbuilding at once. I am a little concerned it might be hard to add new players after the worldbuilding group is done.


* One large empire on heavy decline, many satellite territories rebelling and/or squabbling among themselves, magic is new and strange and on the rise, innate magic users rebelling against social bias, learned magic users suspected of trying to create Tippyverse, too much arcane magic has unpredictable (usually bad) side effects, the true creator gods are dead and sealed away and only weak substitutes exist to fill their shoes.

[Thrudd]

Aria seems pretty obscure, but I've found a few interesting things to look at. It seems like a lot of it is making the worldbuilding into a game, which is a really cool concept, though it sort of risks invalidating what planning I have done, though I suppose I could just take what the players make and advance things forward a century or two to get the starting scenario I wanted* if I can just get everyone on board to to the worldbuilding at once. I am a little concerned it might be hard to add new players after the worldbuilding group is done.


* One large empire on heavy decline, many satellite territories rebelling and/or squabbling among themselves, magic is new and strange and on the rise, innate magic users rebelling against social bias, learned magic users suspected of trying to create Tippyverse, too much arcane magic has unpredictable (usually bad) side effects, the true creator gods are dead and sealed away and only weak substitutes exist to fill their shoes.

Aria is very obsure :)

Sounds like you've got a good start already. The player-assisted worldbuilding does not need to be the complete picture. Tell them the setting outline you have already, it actually may be good for everyone to have a baseline environment to start from. They maybe can each detail one of the rebelling territories, and one of the deities (if you haven't already decided about all of those). As DM, of course you have veto power over anything and reserve the right to modify things to fit cohesively, that will be part of the discussion during the building session. I don't think it is necessary for later new players to be involved in the worldbuilding, unless you want them to be. Tell them about the setting and let them come up with a character concept. If it fits in the already established world, great, if not, let them create a background that explains their character and fit it the new country or clan or city. The world can be a big place, there can always be an unexplored horizon somewhere to add new content. Alternatively, an idea presented in Aria is that occassionally you will create new characters, and advance the game world a generation or more into the future (or the past, possibly), so that it is possible to engage in another session of world building before the adventures begin again. When a new player comes in, it could be agreed on that everyone will roll up new characters (that are possibly descendants of their original characters, or members of the same clan, or related in some way) and the world will have changed a little bit, allowing the new player to contribute their ideas to the setting.
Advancing the timeline before starting play is a good tactic to employ. You can take what the players create and shape it into something more cohesive. The point, for me, is not necessarily to make the world building an element of gameplay, but to engage the players from the beginning so that they care about and are excited about the setting. They have some ownership of it, and understand that through their characters they will still be shaping the world, that its outcome isn't predetermined.
But if you want to have the players roleplay the heads-of-state of various factions and make rolls to determine who wins a battle and who gets assassinated, and who's diplomacy works the best, that might be fun, too, and will provide the background for the setting they will eventually be adventuring in. That would mean creating at least a basic character template for the heads of state, with relevant stats and skills, and setting up the scenario in more detail.

[Totally Guy]

There is a game called Microscope that is a setting building game.

[neonchameleon]

I am an aspiring GM, and I would like to run a game but none of the existing settings appeal to me that much, but I also don't want to create a whole new one by myself. I'd much rather offload some of that onto my players and let them design some of the world for me. I am hoping that will also help get them invested in the world so they don't just default to murder-hoboing.

My main familiarity is with 3.5/PF, but I would be willing to consider an alternative system if it would help accomplish what I'm looking for.

Any advice?

Quite a lot of games do this to an extent - but almost all of them give the PCs resources to affect the metagame if that's a dealbreaker. In fact most of the Forge family (http://eudaimonaiaclaughter.wordpress.com/2013/05/27/forging-motivation-game-design-is-mind-control/) and the subsequent Story-games (http://eudaimonaiaclaughter.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/weaving-worlds/) family (http://eudaimonaiaclaughter.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/we-are-the-loom/) do this. You will be giving up a fair bit of control as DM - most systems that encourage the players to help design the setting give them metagame influence in it.

Probably the best solid game would be Fate Core (http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core/). Simple to play, excellent DMing advice, and both expects and encourages the players to write their own and bits of each others' backgrounds. With a nice clean system, a superb PDF that's pay-what-you-like (http://www.evilhat.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&keyword=fate+core&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&pfrom=&pto=&dfrom=&dto=&x=29&y=13) and some of the best GMing advice I've seen in any game I'd recommend it to anyone even looking outside the D&D family. Seriously, this one has my "Start here" recommendation even if you don't end up using it.

If you take a look at that and decide it's too radical, there's 13th Age (http://www.pelgranepress.com/?p=9764) - "A love letter to D&D" designed by Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo (i.e. lead developers of 3e and 4e). Which gives the PCs some influence/worldbuilding and lets you build the setting around the PCs. The two major factors it gives are that each PC has "One unique thing" which is how they are unique in the setting, and backgrounds rather than skills - to make a skill check you tie what you are doing to your background. (It's also much easier to run than 3e/PF - but so is almost every other RPG I'm aware of - no giving the monsters spell lists or having to juggle that many skill points). It might also be worth just stealing those rules if you want to stick with PF in the end.

If your RP is basically freeform and you prefer it that way, Apocalypse World (http://apocalypse-world.com/) and the rest of the family (IMO only Monsterhearts (http://buriedwithoutceremony.com/monsterhearts/) is superior - and I'd not run it with either of my current gaming groups however awesome the game itself is) run very light and fast. The character sheet, including most of the possible advances fits onto double sided A4 (http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorld-playbooks.pdf) and it plays as fast and inspiring freeform in a post-apocalyptic world, with the first session being designing the world as much as RP (in part based on which character classes people picked).

For something meatier, again where the players design the world in the initial session (and again it's fun and should really involve them), both Smallville (http://www.amazon.com/Smallville-Roleplaying-Game-Cam-Banks/dp/1931567891) (out of print - make sure you get it from someone who says it's in stock - and it's surprisingly good for being a Smallville game) and Hillfolk (http://www.pelgranepress.com/?cat=222) (currently going to press - sorry about this, these are just the games I own and both good) are both dramasystems in which you start off the character creation by the PCs drawing a relationship map covering most of the local setting, then GMing involves setting tension between the PCs.

And if in the end you just want a toolkit to make setting building easier I recommend Vornheim (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/91110/Vornheim%3A-The-Complete-City-Kit) as an effectively systemless book of tricks for easily running an urban fantasy campaign with minimal prep.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I am an aspiring GM, and I would like to run a game but none of the existing settings appeal to me that much, but I also don't want to create a whole new one by myself. I'd much rather offload some of that onto my players and let them design some of the world for me. I am hoping that will also help get them invested in the world so they don't just default to murder-hoboing.

My main familiarity is with 3.5/PF, but I would be willing to consider an alternative system if it would help accomplish what I'm looking for.

Any advice?
OK, there are a lot of good systems out there to get your Players involved in the setting. Personally, I think Burning Wheel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burning_Wheel)or Bliss Stage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/BlissStage?from=Main.BlissStage) are two of the better ones, but perhaps you don't want to learn a whole new system to solve your problem.

In that case you must start with group character creation. All of you need to sit down for an evening and talk about what sort of characters you'd like to make and what sort of things they'd like to do. If you want to lay some groundwork there, use The Same Page Tool (http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/the-same-page-tool/) so that you know where everyone is before they sit down. Sit down and brainstorm until everyone is more-or-less settled on a general direction for the game. By harnessing your Players' interests before you start the game, you have a far better chance of keeping them invested in the resulting game than if you built one without consulting them.

With luck, that gives you enough to build a world out of. If not, there are ways to make it easier:
(1) Start Small
Design just enough of the setting to run your first adventure. This doesn't mean ignore the rest of the world, just don't put much detail into it. This will keep the task manageable and give you room to expand as your Campaign expands.

(2) Make the Setting fit the Game First
You already know a lot about the rules of the world (it runs on 3.PF) and what sort of things you should have in it (the interests of your Players) so decide how the world reflects these facts. If one of your Players is an Elven Cleric, you know that your world has churches where elves are permitted to worship. Ask your Elven Cleric what sort of god he wants to worship and how well he fits in with his church: this can fill in a lot of details you would otherwise have to come up with yourself.
So there's my thoughts. Any follow-up questions? :smallsmile:

[Deadlykire]

There is the Lords of Creation that this forum uses where players take the role of gods and build a world/setting. It was designed for this purpose specifically. There is also a world building subforum that you might look into for material. You don't *have* to create the material yourself, there is plenty of home brewed stuff out there. If you really want the players involved, there are also several PbP variants of such things on these here forums.

I saw one a while back that used the stronghold builders guide (I think) and every player was in control of a nation. They got to spec out the major race, etc etc about the nation. Including technology, alliances, and so forth. You could try such a thing.

You could also run a party of kobold builders or something tasked with hiding and protecting a treasure. Then use their creations as dungeons in the future.

If you've got a group deadset on murder hoboing through your campaign, try a variant Never ending dungeon or similar. It is all combat and specifically designed to have minimal problem solving, lots of combat. It is considerably less work to create such a dungeon where the intent is just constant combat. No need to build elaborate settings/stories if that isn't what your players are keen on.

[Almaseti]

I don't think my group is dead-set on murder-hobo-ing, but I get the impression that murder-hobo is the default mode when a group doesn't feel attached to the world and the story, and I'm new at the DM thing so I don't have a huge amount of faith in my ability to keep my players interested in what I come up with myself. I have been running short games to try to weed out potential players with murderhobo tendencies because that's not the kind of game I'm interested in running.

Giving PCs resources to affect the metagame is something I don't want too much, because I already have an idea of what the parameters of the setting should be.

I'm a little leery of "let each player control a nation" because 1) I want more nations than I'm going to have players and 2) I'm worried about going from competitive to cooperative. On the other hand, making a game out of worldbuilding, with rules and resources, will probably create a much more interesting and complicated setting than freeform.

I am definitely going to give Fate Core a look-over.

[Knaight]

There is a game called Microscope that is a setting building game.

It's also a brilliant RPG and one of the most fun games ever made, so there's that.

[Totally Guy]

It's also a brilliant RPG and one of the most fun games ever made, so there's that.

It sure is, I'm backing the Kingdom kickstarter.

[mcbobbo]

Have you looked at Paizo's Kingmaker AP?

[Cheiromancer]

Speak Authoritatively (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201014) is a way of doing some (mostly small scale) world-building on an as needed basis. It is based on Burning Sky. Check out the examples!

[Almaseti]

Wow, apparently there are a lot of games and systems available for this already! That is super awesome.