Greatest Ravenloft Idea Ever!

[mitchewd]

Ok, each player makes a level 6 expert using the standard D&D races and the elite array. Then, run Expedition to Castle Ravenloft; just to see how long they can survive.....

I am doing this with my current gaming group for when we cannot get everyone together...

Watch the movie "Cabin in the Woods" to see what I am thinking of...

[nedz]

This sounds entertaining, but it could be quite short.

Were you aiming for a campaign or a one-off ?

[mitchewd]

This sounds entertaining, but it could be quite short.

Were you aiming for a campaign or a one-off ?

I am thinking more of a series of one-offs where players keep coming back the next day like in "Groundhog Day".

[mattie_p]

Oh, yeah, he didn't mention in the OP that we're restricted to PHB, DMG, and MM1. Only. Feats, skills, etc.

We do get DMG prestige classes once we qualify. Wee!

[Metahuman1]

Ravenlofts easy. Just bless water the mist. I was in a group were the party cleric did this and broke the entire campaign over his knee. (Given the fact that the DM of that game was a complete ass hole whom I hope never to see again for as long as I live, I have no problems with this. No, his ass holeness was not related to the game, it just suffered form it. )

[Karnith]

We do get DMG prestige classes once we qualify. Wee!
So, at level 6, that means Assassin or Horizon Walker? With the eventual options of Blackguard, Duelist, or Shadowdancer? Well, I suppose that some of them are a step up from a core-only Expert, at least.

[Jeff the Green]

You could probably manage. A lot of the creatures have abysmal perception abilities, and those that don't might be amenable to diplomancy. Go into shadowdancer (since you're pretty much always near a shadow), divine crusader and knight of the raven, exemplar, knight of the sacred seal, or similar prestige classes.

[Arcanist]

Ravenlofts easy. Just bless water the mist. I was in a group were the party cleric did this and broke the entire campaign over his knee. (Given the fact that the DM of that game was a complete ass hole whom I hope never to see again for as long as I live, I have no problems with this. No, his ass holeness was not related to the game, it just suffered form it. )

I think you just missed the point of Ravenloft and the DM is simply bending over said point to let his PCs go on a rampage. If he really wanted to, you would be dead already since you effectively just started a game of Rocket tag with the DM.

[Thurbane]

Are you allowed to take the Leadership feat at 6th level?

[mitchewd]

Are you allowed to take the Leadership feat at 6th level?

Yes, but if your followers die it wrecks havoc on your leadership score.

[Metahuman1]

I think you just missed the point of Ravenloft and the DM is simply bending over said point to let his PCs go on a rampage. If he really wanted to, you would be dead already since you effectively just started a game of Rocket tag with the DM.

Actually the cleric was a first time player who just looked at he discription and said "Hey, it says I make water holy, what does that do?"

DM: "It hurts undead."

Player:" And were in heavy mist?"

DM: "It's the setting. Everything everywhere is in mist and pretty much all the bad guys are undead."

Player: "Oh, ok. I cast bless water on the mist and turn it all into holy water."

DM: *Opens mouth, stops, get's a thoughtful look. Eyes dilate, minor noises that aren't comprehensive as language come out, and he plants his head on the table with a thud.* "You just killed the entire setting."

True story. Like I said, the guy DMing turned out to be a major ass hole in every other respect of his life away form the table, so I don't feel bad for him getting walked into a corner by an oblivious new player.

[nedz]

Bless Water, Destroying Ravenloft one pint at a time.:smallbiggrin:

Did the DM read the spell description ?

[mattie_p]

To be clear, this is Expedition to Castle Ravenloft we are talking about running. At least we won't have to worry about undead being immune to sneak attack.

[Sith_Happens]

Three words: Use Magic Device.

[Rhynn]

Player:" And were in heavy mist?"

DM: "It's the setting. Everything everywhere is in mist and pretty much all the bad guys are undead."

Not, like, even remotely. The borders of domains (when closed) are mist.

Also, the spell doesn't work that way:
"This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water."

So, what Arcanist said. The player was wrong, the DM was double wrong.

[Another_Poet]

Ravenlofts easy. Just bless water the mist.

Why didn't I think of that. That's awesome.

A pint of water could be atomized (mist) over a large area... several squares at least.

Strictly speaking, the spell would bless only one droplet (the other water is not touching it) or, RAW, would not work at all ("target: flask of water" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWater.htm)) but I would allow it as GM and likely have it affect one 10 x 10' area.

[Slipperychicken]

Player: "Oh, ok. I cast bless water on the mist and turn it all into holy water."

DM: *Opens mouth, stops, get's a thoughtful look. Eyes dilate, minor noises that aren't comprehensive as language come out, and he plants his head on the table with a thud.* "You just killed the entire setting."


My gaming groups think I'm being needlessly tedious when I stop to double-check spell descriptions mid-session. This is why they're wrong.

[Jeff the Green]

Three words: Use Magic Device.

Wouldn't work. There are exactly three casters (beyond a couple random adepts as enemies) in the module: one you have about a 25% chance of having to kill and the others you have a 100% chance of having to kill. So you're not likely to find wands or scrolls unless the DM deliberately gives them to you.


Yes, but if your followers die it wrecks havoc on your leadership score.

Only once. Multiple cohorts dying is a problem, but throwing swarms of low-level warriors at a problem won't be entirely useless. Give them longbows and have them volley fire. If they can even get adepts as cohorts that would allow them to get some useful wands. Granted, downtime is a bit nonexistent, but there might be ways around that problem.

Also, I think I misunderstood mattie_p. Mitchewd is his DM? So then divine crusader, exemplar, and knight of the sacred seal won't be available. Diplomacy is still a good tactic (get a wand of guidance of the avatar with your starting cash), because at the very least you might be able to convince certain NPCs to help you (notably Ireena, Urik, and Madame Eva, though the other two hags might be available as well). So is stealth. Werewolves and worgs still have scent and bats still have blindsense, but as far as I remember no one else has unusual senses. (And on that note: ring of the darkhidden.)

Also, ranged mounted combat. There are a number of places where this won't work, but there are enough where it will to be worth having at least one character capable of it.

[Arcanist]

Not, like, even remotely. The borders of domains (when closed) are mist.

Actually, if memory serves, the boarders of a closed domain can be effectively anything that would block a PC from further travel. It can be mist, a rushing river, poisonous gas, or even servants of the Darklord. It is ultimately up to the DM how they keep the PCs inside the domain.


Wizard whining
Also, I'd like to point out that the DM clearly didn't read the spell description since it clearly says that it requires a flash. Regardless of this the Land of Mist, Ironically enough isn't always covered from sky to dirt in mist so not ALL Undead would be taking 2d4 damage each round they are exposed to the now blessed atmosphere of Ravenloft. Besides, killing all the Undead in Ravenloft wouldn't make the setting less than it already is since you can effectively run through an entire campaign in Ravenloft without encountering the Undead (we fought Werebeast and Golems). **** was live yo :smalltongue:

[Jeff the Green]

Actually, if memory serves, the boarders of a closed domain can be effectively anything that would block a PC from further travel. It can be mist, a rushing river, poisonous gas, or even servants of the Darklord. It is ultimately up to the DM how they keep the PCs inside the domain.

In Barovia (at least in EtCR) it is mist. And Strahd controls it utterly. If you tried to bless it he'd probably have a way to turn it into unholy water, or acid, or something.

Also, in EtCR, Barovia isn't necessarily a Domain of the Demiplane of Dread. It can be located in Eberron, Faerûn, or any other campaign world. In this case, Strahd can control the mist enough to confuse people into stumbling back into Barovia. Which is stupid, since anyone with 5 ranks in Survival automatically knows which way true north is.

[Arcanist]

Also, in EtCR, Barovia isn't necessarily a Domain of the Demiplane of Dread. It can be located in Eberron, Faerûn, or any other campaign world. In this case, Strahd can control the mist enough to confuse people into stumbling back into Barovia. Which is stupid, since anyone with 5 ranks in Survival automatically knows which way true north is.

Oh my god... I... I don't even... No... No. No. No. No. No. :smallfurious:

Why would you expose such a blatant flaw in the logic behind EtCR? Why? What has the module done to you? Did one of your characters get turned into a Zombie? :smallannoyed:

[Jeff the Green]

Oh my god... I... I don't even... No... No. No. No. No. No. :smallfurious:

Why would you expose such a blatant flaw in the logic behind EtCR? Why? What has the module done to you? Did one of your characters get turned into a Zombie? :smallannoyed:

No, actually I'm running it and greatly enjoying it (see my sig for a player's reaction). You just can't use that particular line. Either make it a Domain in the Demiplane of Dread like it's supposed to be (this is how I'm doing it) or make some other reason why the mist keeps them out. It's solid fog. It's subtly poisonous. It causes confusion magically. Just don't make it so the players just get lost. It's an annoying break in suspension of disbelief.

[Arcanist]

No, actually I'm running it and greatly enjoying it (see my sig for a player's reaction). You just can't use that particular line. Either make it a Domain in the Demiplane of Dread like it's supposed to be (this is how I'm doing it) or make some other reason why the mist keeps them out. It's solid fog. It's subtly poisonous. It causes confusion magically. Just don't make it so the players just get lost. It's an annoying break in suspension of disbelief.

I was joking good sir. Perhaps I needed more blue text :smalltongue:

[Rhynn]

Actually, if memory serves, the boarders of a closed domain can be effectively anything that would block a PC from further travel. It can be mist, a rushing river, poisonous gas, or even servants of the Darklord. It is ultimately up to the DM how they keep the PCs inside the domain.

It varies a bit, but the Mists are the default, and a hugely important part; there are specific creatures that live in the Mists, the Vistani specifically can traverse through the Mists, etc.

The point is, not everything is shrouded in mists all the time (although it certainly goes with the gothic feel to have low ground mist everywhere).

But yeah, at least in the (totally awesome) 3.X semi-official material (where the "core" domains form a normal, connected world, but the domain borders can be closed by Darklords), Richemulot's borders, for instance, are closed by endless rats that eat you if you try to cross.

All the non-core domains are still mist-shrouded, though, and Mists remain important.


Also, I'd like to point out that the DM clearly didn't read the spell description since it clearly says that it requires a flash. Regardless of this the Land of Mist, Ironically enough isn't always covered from sky to dirt in mist so not ALL Undead would be taking 2d4 damage each round they are exposed to the now blessed atmosphere of Ravenloft. Besides, killing all the Undead in Ravenloft wouldn't make the setting less than it already is since you can effectively run through an entire campaign in Ravenloft without encountering the Undead (we fought Werebeast and Golems).

If we want to get all technical, there is always water in the air, so if this stupidly wrong application of the spell bless water were possible, it'd work without mists, too. Can't quite work out how much more "wet" fog actually is than regular air, but whatever.


Just don't make it so the players just get lost. It's an annoying break in suspension of disbelief.

Well, that works fine by me, too. I'm pretty sure in the Arthaus 3.X Ravenloft material, at least one domain's borders just cause you to lose your way and end up back where you started. It's an obviously magical "you got lost" effect.

[Jeff the Green]

But yeah, at least in the (totally awesome) 3.X semi-official material (where the "core" domains form a normal, connected world, but the domain borders can be closed by Darklords), Richemulot's borders, for instance, are closed by endless rats that eat you if you try to cross.

That. Is. Awesome. I made Lady Ashlyn (a paladin you meat) Richemuloise, and that is so going to come up.

[Mithril Leaf]

Old Human Expert 6 with maxed ranks in handle animal, 18 charisma (boosted to 22), a masterwork tool, Skill focus (handle animal), Animal Affinity, a Circlet of Persuasion, and a +2 Cloak of Charisma gives you a nice solid +27 handle animal check. This means you can have raised 3 dire bears in your backstory. You're also easily able to handle most charisma skills. I think this'll work in EtCR.

EDIT: Damn, elite array. Still able to snag dire lions at least.

[Rhynn]

That. Is. Awesome. I made Lady Ashlyn (a paladin you meat) Richemuloise, and that is so going to come up.

Since you liked it, I dug out my Secrets of the Dread Realms (quite correctly, IMO, the 3.5 Arthaus Ravenloft campaign setting book doesn't tell you anything about the Darklords, basically). It has entries for the Darklords of the core domains, and each ends with a Closing the Borders section.

For Richemulot's darklord:

When [darklord] wishes to close [the] domain, thousands upon thousands of rats swarm forth and gather at Richemulot's borders. Though these creatures can be killed, two appear for every one that is slain. Flying creatures, even those with natural flight ability, find their power will fail them if they attempt to soar over the vermin. Creatures foolish enough to willingly wade into the squealing throng are devoured in moments, down to the last drop of blood and sliver of bone.

Richemulot's thing is, of course, wererats in cities and sewers. I might personally prefer a grotesque living "tower" of rats, or a rain of rats from nowhere, for fliers... it's going to be overt in any case. That's the point with a lot of these: the PCs generally would have no doubt that they're been intentionally trapped.

Some other "Closing the Borders" entries...

Mordent

... the Mists rise at the borders of Mordent. Travelers by land or sea who enter these roiling vapors always find themselves returning to Mordent, regardless of their bearing.

Markovia

... brutal winds whip up along Markovia's coast and schools of ravenous sharks gather just offshore. [...] Creatures that manage to overcome the winds must somehow contend with towering waves that can crush galleys and sharks up to Gargantuan size.

Lamordia

... an unrelenting blizzard whips up at Lamordia's borders, even during the middle of summer. [...] Creatures that manaeg to somehow stand up to the winds and march into the bizzard vanish forever, devoured by snow, sleet and unholy cold.

Kartakass

... a gentle lullaby fills the air at Kartakass' borders. Creatures crossing the border fall into a deep sleep (no sving throw), only to awaken in 1d6 x 10 minutes a few feet inside Kartakass' borders. Neither plugging one's ears or magical silence will protect a creature from the song. Even deaf creatures, creatures that do not require sleep, and creatures normally immune [...] are affected by it.

Borca

... an undetectable catalyst permeates the air surrounding Borca. [...] Creatures taht have consumed any liquid from Boca in the last 48 hours become nauseated when they cross the border and will die in 1d4 x 10 minutes unless they return to Borca.

Valachan

... the land itself subtly shifts to redirect travelers back into Valachan. Regardless of their bearing, travelers always become confused in the forest and find themselves journeying back into the domain.


Mists and winds are pretty much the standards. Winds actually seem more common, although the Mists still surround most/all non-Core domains (and probably surround the Core as a whole, although far off).

Some domains (Verbrek, Falkovnia) explicitly can be escaped, because their borders are not closed by supernatural means, but by patrols of wolves and men-at-arms, respectively. Others cannot be closed at all, in some cases because there is no "true" Darklord anymore. (NB: The Arthaus Ravenloft is slightly changed from the original AD&D 2E one.)

Incidentally, Silent Hill is very obviously a Ravenloft pocket domain.

[Jeff the Green]

Since you liked it, I dug out my Secrets of the Dread Realms (quite correctly, IMO, the 3.5 Arthaus Ravenloft campaign setting book doesn't tell you anything about the Darklords, basically). It has entries for the Darklords of the core domains, and each ends with a Closing the Borders section.

A little off-topic, but do you (or anyone else) have any idea of how to get a hold of the 3.x Ravenloft books? I can't even find a list of them, but it's entirely possible I'm just not very good at looking.

[Rhynn]

A little off-topic, but do you (or anyone else) have any idea of how to get a hold of the 3.x Ravenloft books? I can't even find a list of them, but it's entirely possible I'm just not very good at looking.

The Fraternity of Shadows (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/) might help a bit, but the website is pretty poor and hard to navigate. The reviews (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/DrawingRoom.html) seem to have a pretty complete listing of the Arthaus Ravenloft books, though, under "3rd Edition Ravenloft Product Reviews" (everything except EtCR is Arthaus), and Amazon and eBay may help with acquiring them.

Basically:

Ravenloft Third Edition (2001) is the 3.0 book.
Secrets of the Dread Realms (2001) has a ton of useful and necessary information on realms and darklords.
Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide (2003) and Player's Handbook (2003) are the 3.5 updated versions.
Denizens of Darkness (2002) is the 3.0 monster book, Denizens of Dread (2004) is 3.5. I think DoDread added some monsters, too, but not 100% sure.
The Gazetteer Volume 1 through 5 (2002-2004) detail the many domains as an in-character travelogue written for Azalin by a scribe and traveller. (Like Volo's Guides.)
The rest are supplements: Van Richten's Arsenal (2002), Champions of Darkness (2002), Heroes of Light (2002), Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead (2003), the Shadow Fey (2004), and the Mists (2005), Legacy of Blood (2004), and Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends (2005).
Masque of the Red Death (2004) is an update of that setting, which is basically Victorian gothic horror on Earth, where monsters hide from sight using "masques."


It's all great quality as material, although they screwed up the rules sometimes, but IMO the meat of it - the gothic horror - is spot on and worth it. It's frankly better than 2E Ravenloft, which really wasn't very good at doing horror, it was mostly for gothic-themed D&D adventures...


Also, as to mitchewd's original post: I think it's a good idea. I personally always thought the best way to run 3.X Ravenloft would be to use the Arthaus material, but make PCs using d20 Modern, complete with Arcanist etc. being prestige classes but using D&D spell lists (as modified for Ravenloft), because it's a great idea to limit the level of spells available. (I think Arcanist is limited to 5th-level?) Also, no WBL. In a good horror RPG, players should be completely outmatched by the source of horror. Sure, you could take on bakhna rahkna (maybe) and goblyns, but good luck fighting a ghost or vampire - and you're not really supposed to, either.

[mitchewd]

The Fraternity of Shadows (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/) might help a bit, but the website is pretty poor and hard to navigate. The reviews (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/DrawingRoom.html) seem to have a pretty complete listing of the Arthaus Ravenloft books, though, under "3rd Edition Ravenloft Product Reviews" (everything except EtCR is Arthaus), and Amazon and eBay may help with acquiring them.

Also, as to mitchewd's original post: I think it's a good idea. I personally always thought the best way to run 3.X Ravenloft would be to use the Arthaus material, but make PCs using d20 Modern, complete with Arcanist etc. being prestige classes but using D&D spell lists (as modified for Ravenloft), because it's a great idea to limit the level of spells available. (I think Arcanist is limited to 5th-level?) Also, no WBL. In a good horror RPG, players should be completely outmatched by the source of horror. Sure, you could take on bakhna rahkna (maybe) and goblyns, but good luck fighting a ghost or vampire - and you're not really supposed to, either.

I have almost all of the Arthaus books - Van Richten's guide to the walking dead and his guide to the shadow fey are two of my favorites...

I have been running Ravenloft adventures since the early nineties and absolutely love the setting. The challenge is finding a group that wants to play in the setting. The default perspective of most groups is that they are the above-average heroic types and the DM's purpose in life is to script the story so they look like something out of a Michael Bay movie. Yes, they will be in danger, but in the end everything will turn out fine and there is nothing out there that they cannot handle...

...I don't play that way.

Even in my regular Forgotten Realms Campaign, they are hopelessly outmatched. The world is an awful, dreadful place and they need to be careful about their decisions lest they get eaten. Case in point - they are currently in the middle of the Rawlinswood in Unapproachable East on the front of an invasion by the 'Rotting Man's' forces. Just the random encounters in the Rawlinswood run from ECL 5-14. At third level, they had random encounters with: (1) three trolls, (2) 9 Worgs, and a (3) young adult green dragon... They are currently surrounded by his armies in a town of 300 (originally 600) that is under siege. They are 5-6th level.

:)

[mattie_p]

Alright, so it looks like we got a little additional clarification. Prestige classes and PHB classes become available as soon as we start the game.

Which means I don't have to be a dwarven wilderness guide who uses stonecunning as the sole source of trapfinding in the party.