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Gamebird
2006-12-04, 02:43 PM
I've recently had a disagreement with a player over how the Grease spell works. I'm not invested in my ruling on it - I may well be running it wrong. But before I change the "official DM ruling" on the spell, I'd like to run it by you guys.

Here's the spell text that matters:
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex) or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) skill for details).

Now I read that as meaning that when the spell is cast, the creature makes a save. If it succeeds, it is still standing. If it fails, it falls down.

If it succeeded on that initial save, then on its action it can opt to move out of the area of effect without penalty, because moving out isn't moving "within or through". It's like Entangle - if you save, you can leave, but if you don't leave, you make a new save next round.

If you failed on that initial save, then you are prone and get to retry the save each round, or crawl out, with the usual penalties for prone and crawling. Or it could remain prone and make attacks with a -4 penalty.

Whether you succeed or fail, the only people who have to make Balance checks are those who move into or through a greased area after it exists, and who are not already prone. The Balance check is to resist becoming prone. As per Balance checks, they are flat-footed during this. If they fail the Balance check, their movement ends and (if they fail by 5 or more) they fall down. Once on the ground, they aren't flat footed or balancing, but they are prone.

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The player's interpretation was different. He thought that once in the AoE, a creature made a save to determine whether it was prone or not. Each round it remained in the area this would be repeated. So far so good. But in addition, the creature was immediately considered to be balancing even if they made their save (along with the flat-footedness and half movement). Any attempt to leave the greased area required a Balance check and failure on that check stopped movement; failure by 5 or more caused the creature to fall down. Even if prone, a creature was flat footed, balancing, and required a Balance check to crawl out of the AoE.

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So what do you think?

JaronK
2006-12-04, 02:52 PM
Player interpretation sounds right to me. Trying to move out of the grease area is the same as trying to move within it... you're within it as you move out. And yes, you're balancing as long as you're in there, though you might not be balancing terribly well...

JaronK

Gamebird
2006-12-04, 03:01 PM
Another way to sum up interpretations:

My original view:
Foe has a save vs. prone, to be repeated each round.
Foes moving into/through/within the area of effect are reduced to half movement, are flat footed for the round, have a 25% chance of ending movement in the Grease and a 25% chance of becoming prone in the Grease.
Small AoE (10x10)
Short duration (1 round / level)

Player view:
Foe is flat footed (no save) - vulnerable to sneak attacks, loses DEX bonus to AC.
Foe is half move (no save)
Foe has a save vs. prone, to be repeated each round.
Foe has a check to achieve half movement (about 50% chance) and if it elects to make this check, it has a 25% chance of becoming prone even if it made the Reflex save.
Small AoE (10x10)
Short duration (1 round / level)

daggaz
2006-12-04, 03:10 PM
Your player is right. You are within the AoE and *any* attempt to move requires the checks. If you can move far enough in one round under the given conditions (1/2 speed) to leave the AoE, you would only need to succeed at one check. Failing it leaves you either a)stuck where you started still standing and balancing or b)prone, where you started.If it takes more than one round (say 20 feet of grease to cross, 1/2 speed of ten feet) you would need two checks providing you pass them both, in two rounds. Or you could double move in one round (no other actions) but you still need to pass the two checks.

Maryring
2006-12-04, 03:21 PM
Remember though, that five ranks in balance negates being flatfooted while balancing.

Anyway, I think... a mix is right. I think the player is MOSTLY right, I think that when you're prone, you are no longer balancing or flatfooted.

That's my take at least.

Gamebird
2006-12-04, 05:23 PM
If you can move far enough in one round under the given conditions (1/2 speed) to leave the AoE, you would only need to succeed at one check.

No, two checks: the Reflex save and the Balance check.

The 5 ranks of Balance thing hardly matters, because most non-DEX creatures won't have any and high-DEX creatures won't be the target of Grease.

MrNexx
2006-12-04, 05:39 PM
Mental note: Disguise Self is useful for the appearance of wearing heavy armor, so people will target their dex-based attack spells at me... because apparently, everyone can tell when to target what spell at whom.

Gamebird
2006-12-04, 05:53 PM
... because apparently, everyone can tell when to target what spell at whom.

Maybe it's just the people I game with, but the casters are usually very particular about who they cast their spells at. Just like the rogues in my game all instantly knew the target of the Grease spell was flat footed (even though it made the Reflex save) and began to close with it so they could get their extra damage.

There is a level at which you really can't flog your players for using metagame knowledge. Well, I suppose you could, but they'll trot out the usual arguments about how their characters are highly trained adventurers, blah-blah-blah and how they'd know, from training or experience or magical theory or Knowledge: Whatever checks that X, Y, and Z spells work better on clumsy or burdened people and A, B, and C spells work better on frail and/or limber sorts.

Thomas
2006-12-04, 05:58 PM
Nothing wrong with the characters knowing someone's flat-footed. By the books, you know if you're going to provoke an AoO if you do something. (Except, I presume, when you can't see the opponent threatening you.)

Targeting spells right is usually easy. The guy in the robe and the dude with the mace and the holy symbol aren't good targets for anything that gives a Will save; the huge, half-naked warrior isn't a good target for anything that gives a Fort save; and the one in leather armor with a rapier (or, alternatively, dressed in a robe and with no weapons) is a poor target for anything that gives a Ref save.

Surely casters have some basic understanding about whatever the saves their spells grant represent in-character. "Ogres are easy prey for charm spells! Undead are not affected by phantasmal killer..."

Amotis
2006-12-04, 06:01 PM
A bit off topic, but Grease is an awesome spell to apply the metamagic feat, shape spell.
Grease is one of the best underratted spells.

Gamebird
2006-12-04, 06:13 PM
:smallconfused: :smalleek: Underrated?

It's right up there with Entangle for low-level, end-the-encounter spells if the player's interpretation was right. One spell and the enemy is mainly neutralized. Of course, as Logic Ninja made a bit deal of, that's how 3.X is. The previous editions put the power of the game in blowing things up. Third edition and progeny skewed things around with the save progression for monsters, Evasion, SR, built-in resistance to most AoE damage on a lot of monsters, and non-improving save DC so that battlefield control is a much more reliable and devastating way to operate.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just being clear that it is a thing. Anyone who goes for a blasty mage is selling himself short on raw power. That's fine and all.

As a DM though, I am frustrated with spells that neuter the majority of their foes. I must say though that I've been amused as heck in the rare opportunities I've had to turn the tables. Blinding half the party with pyrotechnics was sweet. Fireballing their asses was sweeter still. Even though neither tactic hurt them all that much (it's no fun if they all die), I felt vindicated that they found the treatment as unpalatable as I do.

MrNexx
2006-12-04, 06:19 PM
Targeting spells right is usually easy.

You know, I've been playing ToEE on the computer recently, and it's occured to me... given my inability to control precisely where I'm standing at any given moment (which is a bit more like real combat than D&D), spell targeting gets to be a bitch... and becomes something of a matter of "Yeah, I hope he can take it."

Golthur
2006-12-04, 10:06 PM
Mental note: Disguise Self is useful for the appearance of wearing heavy armor, so people will target their dex-based attack spells at me... because apparently, everyone can tell when to target what spell at whom.
Don't laugh, I've done it, and it's worked - not with spells, but it's the same idea. At the time, it kept me safe from some "kill the wizard" archers at low levels. Who's going to shoot the "tank with the shield", when they can pop the rogue in leather armour?

I've also used the tactic against a (young) dragon, so he thought I was a non-flying tank guy (and thus no threat).

Disguise/alter self is great against class profiling!

Myatar_Panwar
2006-12-04, 10:18 PM
Yes the player appears correct. If you get up after going prone in the grease, you still have to balance to exit the spell.

Skyserpent
2006-12-04, 10:20 PM
Grease + Shape Spell + 120ft Line + light push = :smallbiggrin:

Darrin
2006-12-05, 08:32 AM
Yes the player appears correct. If you get up after going prone in the grease, you still have to balance to exit the spell.

I thought the best way to avoid Grease was to Jump out of it? (Those hulking brute fighters may not have high ref saves, but they do have higher Str and Jump as a class skill.)

Move action to stand (no balance roll), Jump check to get out of AoE?

Wolf53226
2006-12-05, 10:23 AM
I'd rule that they have to make their reflex save inorder to jump, it just make sense, you ever try to jump a decent distance when on a slippery surface, NOT good.

Then again, that might be bringing real world physics into the game, and we all know what that does.

Golthur
2006-12-05, 10:36 AM
I'd rule that they have to make their reflex save inorder to jump, it just make sense, you ever try to jump a decent distance when on a slippery surface, NOT good.

Then again, that might be bringing real world physics into the game, and we all know what that does.
I'd agree with this - either a Reflex save, or (preferred for me) a Balance check in order to jump. They can't jump without having steady footing.

Ethdred
2006-12-05, 10:43 AM
Isn't there some general rule that when exiting an effect (ie moving immediately from an effected square to the adjacent unaffected square) you count as not affected by the effect. So if you had to move to the edge of the Grease, then the player is right, but if you were at the edge, then you could step out without penalty?

We've always played that you only make a Balance check if you move - standing there smacking the fighter is OK.

And yeah, an incredibly useful spell - had my eyes opened when a guy in my group had a sorceror who took it at first level. My initial reaction was 'Where's your magic missile'. Until the first combat!

ilovefire
2006-12-05, 10:54 AM
Grease is a fun, fun spell. THis is probably against the rules, but I'd like like to say that in a game I was, we were fightign a barghest (as a group of five level 2 PCs without a healer, because our Favoured Soul was playing WOW... Grr.), and my Wizard casted grease on it which knocked it down for two turns... and then the rogue tossed a lit tindertwig on the greased spot. the DM ruled that the grease was flammable and did damage as nonmagical fire to all creatures in the area.

It didn't end up killing the thing, but it certainly was fun!

NullAshton
2006-12-05, 11:01 AM
Jumping does work. As there's nothing against you JUMPING. And is incidentally the only way that frenzied berserkers can leave the grease.

MrNexx
2006-12-05, 11:06 AM
I'd rule against it. You can't jump without steady footing.

Golthur
2006-12-05, 11:09 AM
Jumping does work. As there's nothing against you JUMPING. And is incidentally the only way that frenzied berserkers can leave the grease.


I'd rule against it. You can't jump without steady footing.
Exactly. Try jumping off of glare ice (in lieu of a greased floor) some time without getting your footing first and see how far you get :tongue:.

Thomas
2006-12-05, 11:10 AM
Jumping works assuming your DM is an idiot who doesn't think there's anything wrong with people making huge leaps while lying on their back.

Yeah, that's a great prospect.

I'd also definitely make them roll a Balance check or a save or something to jump when standing in the area of a grease spell. Slippery, slippery.

Pegasos989
2006-12-05, 11:16 AM
I would allow jumping. I know it is not logical but I do not think that 1st level AoE spell should completely cripple frenzied berserker (who can't make dex based skill checks...).

Thomas
2006-12-05, 11:17 AM
He can still crawl away from the area of the spell fine. :smallwink:

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-05, 11:22 AM
Jumping works. You stand up, and then jump. Jumping from a standing position isn't that hard, on something slippery or not (and, remember--Physics, D&D, dead catgirls).

Person_Man
2006-12-05, 11:27 AM
In my games, I use your player's interpretation. Reflex Saves + Balance checks. I don't allow a Jump check in place of a Balance check, as you can't Jump without firm footing.

You can crawl out of a Grease area, or just fight from the Prone position at -4. There's nothing stopping you or your enemies from just pulling out a ranged weapon and shooting.

You can also Bull Rush your friends out of it. As hilarious as it sounds, a Rogue with a high Balance check can do it pretty easily, and the other player can choose to auto-fail their opposed check.

PinkysBrain
2006-12-05, 11:30 AM
Just like the rogues in my game all instantly knew the target of the Grease spell was flat footed (even though it made the Reflex save) and began to close with it so they could get their extra damage.
That's not metagaming, that's playing the odds ... most creatures and NPCs are flatfooted inside the area of a grease spell, that's simply an in game knowable fact. A fact which a rogue can be expected to be aware of.

Gamebird
2006-12-05, 11:38 AM
So if you fail your Reflex save and fall prone, are you still flat footed from the Balance check?

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-05, 11:40 AM
If you're prone, you don't need to balance and aren't flatfooted.

grinner666
2006-12-05, 11:42 AM
Actually, jumping is movement and would still require the Balance check. In fact even crawling is movement if you want to go that far ...

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-05, 11:43 AM
Jumping is movement, but it's not across the grease spell, so there's no balance check. It covers the ground; you're in the air the entire time you're moving horizontally.

Pegasos989
2006-12-05, 11:44 AM
Actually, jumping is movement and would still require the Balance check. In fact even crawling is movement if you want to go that far ...

Yeah. And I kinda see the point there as even crawling on very slippery surface can be really hard if you can't get a handhold somewhere.

So, by RAW, frenzies berserker can't get out of it without jumping (or okay, some team help might do)

Yakk
2006-12-05, 11:46 AM
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check.

That is the Balance check.

The creature, in order to be forced to make a balance check, must try to walk within or through the area.

Crawling is not walking -- it is more stable.

Standing still is not walking.

So both crawling and standing targets are not making balance checks. Hence they are not flat footed.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-05, 12:34 PM
I'm inclined to agree, for what that's worth. If the creature is not making balance checks because they aren't moving, then why should they be considered balancing? Likewise a prone creature isn't balancing either.

As for exiting the grease spell, the spell specifically states "within or through". Doesn't say out. Sure I understand the argument that you start moving within, but I also know from real-life experience on ice patches that if there is sure ground nearby, you can reach it, kinda falling onto it.

Merlin the Tuna
2006-12-05, 01:49 PM
Grease is a fun, fun spell. THis is probably against the rules, but I'd like like to say that in a game I was, we were fightign a barghest (as a group of five level 2 PCs without a healer, because our Favoured Soul was playing WOW... Grr.), and my Wizard casted grease on it which knocked it down for two turns... and then the rogue tossed a lit tindertwig on the greased spot. the DM ruled that the grease was flammable and did damage as nonmagical fire to all creatures in the area.

It didn't end up killing the thing, but it certainly was fun!

For some reason, this is a common misconception. The spell Grease is not flammable, but so many people seem to think that it is that WotC actually published a higher level version of the spell that is. I want to say it's in the PHB 2.

Gamebird
2006-12-05, 03:20 PM
For some reason, this is a common misconception. The spell Grease is not flammable, but so many people seem to think that it is that WotC actually published a higher level version of the spell that is. I want to say it's in the PHB 2.

In 2nd edition, the spell created real grease that was flammable. This is where the "misconception" arises.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-02, 03:10 PM
Hi folks. I finally got around to emailing Wizards Customer Service about this question.

My question:
Happy New Years! Okay, my question today revolves around slippery areas such as ice sheets and grease spells. I've seen the following two questions debated endlessly on forums and I'm hoping you can provide an answer. First, the balance skill states that anyone balancing with less than 5 ranks in the skill is flat-footed. So the question becomes what is meant by the term 'balancing'; is it simply being in a slippery area, or is it trying to move in a slippery area? If a creature has grease cast under him, makes his reflex save, then does not attempt to move, is it 'balancing'? Some argue that regardless of whether the creature moves, just being in combat causes its feet to pivot, momentum to shift, etc., so it has to balance. Others argue that since you only have to make a balance check to move in a slippery area, you are only balancing when making rolls for it. The second question is about leaving a slippery area. Can someone with grease cast under them simply just move out of the affected area, or does that still require a balance check? [The first question I'm personally undecided on, but the second I believe should be yes, because the grease spell specifically states within or through]. There are many people out there who play with the grease spell as this killer spell where enemies are instantly flat-footed (and thus rogue-bait) and can't leave the area easily.

Wizards answer:
Hey there Ken! The rules are unclear on this, but in the case of balancing while on a slippery surface, the character is only balancing when moving. Now, a Dungeon Master could house rule that being in combat while in a slippery area would cause the character to be balancing as well, and this makes sense, but that would have to be a house rule as it goes beyond what the rules offer.

A character would need to make a balance check when moving out of, within, or into an area that requires a balance check. So when moving out of an area under the effects of a grease spell, the character would still need to make a balance check. Have fun and good gaming!

Gamebird
2007-01-02, 05:17 PM
Okay. So once targeted by Grease, you have to roll Balance to get out of the area. If you don't try to get out, then you only roll your Reflex save each round to avoid being prone.

Here's an odd thing though:
Bob is the target of Grease. He makes his Reflex save.
Dirk the rogue is standing next to him and makes his attacks. Because Bob hasn't had his action yet, Bob has not moved, therefore he isn't flat-footed because he's not making a balance check. Dirk doesn't get Sneak Attack.
On Bob's turn, he decides to move. Now he makes a balance check. Assuming he is successful, then he moves out of the area. Now he's no longer standing on grease.
Dirk's turn comes up again. Does Dirk now get Sneak Attack because Bob's last action (which technically is entirely over) involved balancing? Or does Dirk's attack only count the current situation?

cupkeyk
2007-01-02, 08:23 PM
Grease has a version in PH2 that is flammable.

I mean, if I see someone wobbling, I am pretty sure they can't defend themselves properly from my kidney skewers, right? They APPARENTLY are flatfooted. that's how flatfooted is, an obvious manifestation of the fact that a person cannot defend himself. Surprise round, kill the ones who have the dumbfounded looks in their faces while digging for green nuggets in the black forest. Being rogue is ultimately fun.

Jack Mann
2007-01-02, 08:42 PM
I think you guys are talking about incendiary slime, which is in Complete Mage, not Player's Handbook II.

Gamebird
2007-01-02, 09:40 PM
Grease has a version in PH2 that is flammable.

I mean, if I see someone wobbling, I am pretty sure they can't defend themselves properly from my kidney skewers, right? They APPARENTLY are flatfooted. that's how flatfooted is, an obvious manifestation of the fact that a person cannot defend himself. Surprise round, kill the ones who have the dumbfounded looks in their faces while digging for green nuggets in the black forest. Being rogue is ultimately fun.

My point is that they aren't wobbling until their action. They might decide not to move, in which case they aren't flat-footed. Only if they move are they flat-footed. But since you don't get to attack them on their turn, while they're moving (barring attacks of opportunity), it's kind of weird. Balancing is not a full round action. It takes place while you're moving. Which means that by the time the rogue's action comes back around, their target is no longer moving, no longer balancing, and therefore is not flat-footed.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-02, 09:45 PM
My point is that they aren't wobbling until their action. They might decide not to move, in which case they aren't flat-footed. Only if they move are they flat-footed. But since you don't get to attack them on their turn, while they're moving (barring attacks of opportunity), it's kind of weird. Balancing is not a full round action. It takes place while you're moving. Which means that by the time the rogue's action comes back around, their target is no longer moving, no longer balancing, and therefore is not flat-footed.

I think it makes sense to rule that anyone whose last action was moving is still "moving". However if they are moving and have left the area of the grease spell they are no longer balancing.

One way for certain you can catch the enemy flat-footed is if they attempt to move, fail the balance check but by less than 5, then make the reflex save. Now for sure they are wobbling.

raspberrybadger
2007-01-03, 12:05 AM
If the rogue goes before his target moves, he has a simple solution: ready an action to hit the guy the second he moves. Then he'll be flat footed just fine.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-03, 12:14 AM
If the rogue goes before his target moves, he has a simple solution: ready an action to hit the guy the second he moves. Then he'll be flat footed just fine.

Then again, if an intelligent fighter standing in slippery grease sees a rogue-ish looking type not attacking, just watching him, waiting for something, he might want to risk the next round's reflex save against falling and just bash the rogue. We had a thread a while back about using sense motive to tell if and what a foe has readied an action for. If an action is readied should be pretty easy to discern, what may be more tricky.