Why Play A Shugenja?

[Zombulian]

Basically what the title says. I've been looking into them lately and I'm having trouble figuring out why I would want to play one. They seem like a divine Sorcerer with an even greater restriction on spells castable. I have a feeling I'm misunderstanding how the class works, but the only upside to playing a Shugenja to me right now is being able to call yourself a Shoogy.

[ArcturusV]

Honestly? There's not much if you compare it to other classes. It's definitely a lower tier class, I'd peg it around tier 4/5 border myself. It basically has all the weaknesses of both Divine Casters, Specialist Wizards, Spontaneous Casters and Preparation Casters all at the same time.

And not exactly any of their strengths either.

If you have the option to be a Shugenja, or a Druid, or a Cleric, or a Sorcerer, or a Favored Soul, as far as "Sheer Power" goes, there's no reason to pick Shugenja. If you are worried about needing to gear down so you don't overshadow your team that consists of an OA Samurai, a Ninja, a Ranger and a Paladin, then it's a good option.

I mean, breaking it down:

1) You are a spontaneous caster, with the usual metamagic delays, limits on spells known, slower spell level progression, etc.

2) Like a Specialist Wizard you have to axe out an entire element in order to automatically specialize in an Element. There is no Generalist Option, no "Domain Wizard" equivalent, etc. There is no clear "Automatically weaker" element either that you can feel comfortable dropping, the specialization is fixed so whatever you choose to specialize in automatically determines your barred element. As well you have to have at least half your known spells be of that element, further handicapping you from picking up all the utility across the 3 elements you actually have access to.

3) Note that unlike every other divine caster in existence, the Shugenja isn't actually proficient in Armor or any weapons other than Simple and the Wakizashi. Not so much a concern for higher level play, but it makes them the weakest of the Divine casters at low level, coupled with the d6 hit dice rather than D8.

4) What I think is perhaps the killer for the Shugenja, despite the fact that you are in fact a Spontaneous Caster, you are effectively "Spellbook limited", as Shugenjas cast their spells off holy scrolls, and without those scrolls you cannot cast any spells. So if you don't have your "Spellbook" on hand the moment you want to cast something, you're barely better than a Commoner.

5) Lack of any real class features. Sense Elements is... eh. It has enough limitations upon it between Times Per Day, and the very, very crappy range on it (10 feet plus 5 per level) that I have honestly never seen it even marginally useful.

[BWR]

IMO, the only reason to pick it is if you are playing d20 Rokugan, where that is your only non-evil casting class. Some of the extra rules and spells they have are nifty. Also, if you allow homebrewed conversions of the original R&K stuff they get even better.

[JaronK]

If you want to play a caster that doesn't overpower lots of other classes, the Shugenja can help. That's the big advantage.

JaronK

[Vaz]

Tier 4-5? Are you serious? It's a SAD Full Caster.

Dragonborn Spellscale Fire Shugenja are fantastic for utility, being Spontaneous Casters. You don't even need the Rokugan books to make it a perfectly good Tier 2 character.

Gaining Domain access is easy, and with access to the Hexer from 3.0 (normally reserved for NPC Adepts, Sha'Ir, and Archivist's otherwise), it's brilliant, as you can get Domain Spells, and Sor/Wiz spells.

Something like a Primordial Half-Giant Shugenja 6/Singer of Concordance 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Hexer 10/Contemplative 1 gets you 2 Domains, and full casting, with 5 Sor/Wiz spells, a Turn Undead Pool (on a Cha SAD Caster) for DMM/Domain Devotions etc, and with decent stats; -2 Str,Dex -2, Int +4, Cha +4.

Requires Sanctum Spell for early entry into Singer of Concordance at 6th level, and LA buy-off to fit in all the levels. If these are not allowed, you can swallow the LA, and take Divine Oracle (gain Oracle Domain instead of Singer of Corcordance's choice), which gets you at 9th, 1 Order Spell, 1 Element Spell and 1 Other spell of 9th level (which can be any one of your 2 Domain 9th's Spells, your Hexer 9th spell, or any from the Shugenja list.

[ArcturusV]

That seems more like the power of Templates and PrCs than the power of a Shugenja to me. I can't help but think the Shugenja doesn't really add anything to that character that couldn't have been done better with other options (like Archivist), other than entrance into Hexer, an obscure PrC I've never even heard of before, had to look up, and just reminds me of how relatively broken FR PrCs tend to be compared to other PrCs.

But without the PrC? On it's own? The class is just... not impressive. So there's one obscure PrC out there that makes it a good deal. I'm just not seeing why I wouldn't take it over other classes if I was looking for the answer in Raw Power.

I mean it's good, because it forces you to gear down. Probably next to Healer (Which I've never had the misfortune to have to deal with) or maybe Adept, it's about the weakest Divine Caster base class out there.

[Clistenes]

I would say a Shugenja is tier 3, maybe tier 2, if the DM allows to create a custom school so you can pick the spells from your barred element as school spells. The Shugenja can be good at a thing (Healbot, Blaster, Buffer or utility spells), and can help with some spells when his main talent isn't required too, which makes him a third tier.

Plus you can take a level of a Prestige Class or two that grants you Domains, and later take the Extra Domain feat, so you can learn those spells in place of you favored element's spells.

I think the Shugenja is an nice way to have a "mage" who won't overshadow the rest of the party. It's useful too if you want to create a Charisma-Based Divine Gish.

[Jeff the Green]

I would say a Shugenja is tier 3, maybe tier 2, if the DM allows to create a custom school so you can pick the spells from your barred element as school spells.

You can't do that. Even if you have some of your barred element spells in your school, you can't cast them. It's one of the things that makes them solidly tier 4-3, depending on school and specialization, and keeps them from tier 2.

[Clistenes]

You can't do that. Even if you have some of your barred element spells in your school, you can't cast them. It's one of the things that makes them solidly tier 4-3, depending on school and specialization, and keeps them from tier 2.

Well, you can use Cleric, Wizard and Druid spells, assign an element to each of them and build a school that patches your weaknesses. If you can't learn Flame Strike, Chain Lightning or Meteor Swarm because fire is your barred school, then learn Cone of Cold, Ice Storm, Cometstrike, Cometfall, Frozen Nova, Acid Storm, Acid Fog, Bombardment...etc.

[Yora]

Shugenja is indeed a divine sorcerers. That means playing a priest without heavy armor who outshines fighter in melee combat, and getting rid of that silly spell preparation.
Pathfinder oracles do it better, though.

[Wings of Peace]

Either because your DM won't let you refluff another casting class to match your character concept or because you want to play a handicapped vancian caster and are bad at self handicapping.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, you can use Cleric, Wizard and Druid spells, assign an element to each of them and build a school that patches your weaknesses. If you can't learn Flame Strike, Chain Lightning or Meteor Swarm because fire is your barred school, then learn Cone of Cold, Ice Storm, Cometstrike, Cometfall, Frozen Nova, Acid Storm, Acid Fog, Bombardment...etc.

At that point you're strictly into homebrew territory, which a lot of DMs won't allow and can't be factored into tier discussion. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it because thematically only the fire element has access to blasting.

[Clistenes]

At that point you're strictly into homebrew territory, which a lot of DMs won't allow and can't be factored into tier discussion. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it because thematically only the fire element has access to blasting.

Stone Spike, Master of the Rolling River, Whirlwind, Creeping Cold, Storm of Vengeanze and Disintegrate all deal damage and are Water, Air and Earth spells. Flesh to Stone and Earthquake are attack spells and are Earth spells. You can deal damage with non-fire spells.

About learning new spells, the OA book itself suggest that you improve your spell list researching elementally themed spells.

[eggynack]

Stone Spike, Master of the Rolling River, Whirlwind, Creeping Cold, Storm of Vengeanze and Disintegrate all deal damage and are Water, Air and Earth spells. Flesh to Stone and Earthquake are attack spells and are Earth spells. You can deal damage with non-fire spells.

About learning new spells, the OA book itself suggest that you improve your spell list researching elementally themed spells.
I don't think that's what he meant. There are obviously spells of other elements than fire. His point was that fire, as applies to shugenja, is thematically linked to blasting. It's right there in the text: "Fire spells are destructive and blatant."
The other elemental descriptions are clearly predisposed to not be based on blasting.

[GreenSerpent]

Stone Spike, Master of the Rolling River, Whirlwind, Creeping Cold, Storm of Vengeanze and Disintegrate all deal damage and are Water, Air and Earth spells. Flesh to Stone and Earthquake are attack spells and are Earth spells. You can deal damage with non-fire spells.

About learning new spells, the OA book itself suggest that you improve your spell list researching elementally themed spells.

Aye. It recommends that in the Spell Compendium as well. I see no reason why the following spells couldn't be added (for example):

Water: Tsunami (9th), Mass Drown (9th), Red Tide (8th), Maelstrom (8th), Waterspout (7th), Swamp Lung (7th), Extract Water Elemental (6th), Tidal Surge (6th), Drown (6th), Animate Snow? (6th), Sirine's Grace (5th), Cloak of the Sea (5th), Fireward (5th), Cold Snap (5th)...

Earth: Cast in Stone (9th), Undermaster (9th), Excavate (8th), Bombardment (8th), Unyielding Roots? (8th), Master Earth (7th), Stonehold (6th), Aspect of the Earth Hunter (6th), Wall of Sand (5th), Greater Stone Shape (5th), Ice Flowers (5th)...

Air: Greater Whirlwind (9th), Stormrage (8th), Lightning Ring (8th), Storm Tower (7th), Cloudwalkers (7th), Miasma (6th), Blood Sirocco (6th), Cometfall? (6th), Wind Tunnel (5th), Mass Fly (5th), Cyclonic Blast (5th)...

All taken from the Spell Compendium Druid, with a few from the Sorc/Wiz list. Only did 9th to 5th level, also didn't check with the existing Shugenja list, because I'm lazy. But my point is there's also plenty of potential blasting on other elements.

[marcielle]

Maybe it's meant to be a stab at a(n almost) balanced caster?

[Jeff the Green]

I don't think that's what he meant. There are obviously spells of other elements than fire. His point was that fire, as applies to shugenja, is thematically linked to blasting. It's right there in the text: "Fire spells are destructive and blatant."
The other elemental descriptions are clearly predisposed to not be based on blasting.

Right. The shugenja elements aren't just about which energies you manipulate. They're philosophies. Water values restoration and purification, air trickery and stealth, fire destruction, earth endurance and precise counterstrikes. Adding blasty spells to earth, water, or air (especially the last two) goes way against their philosophy.

[Clistenes]

Right. The shugenja elements aren't just about which energies you manipulate. They're philosophies. Water values restoration and purification, air trickery and stealth, fire destruction, earth endurance and precise counterstrikes. Adding blasty spells to earth, water, or air (especially the last two) goes way against their philosophy.

But, as I said, there are already many blasty and damage-dealing Air, Earth and Water spells, so adding a couple more shouldn't be such a big deal, at least if the character invests time and resources doing the research.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That seems more like the power of Templates and PrCs than the power of a Shugenja to me. I can't help but think the Shugenja doesn't really add anything to that character that couldn't have been done better with other options (like Archivist), other than entrance into Hexer, an obscure PrC I've never even heard of before, had to look up, and just reminds me of how relatively broken FR PrCs tend to be compared to other PrCs.

Just mentioning that Hexer isn't actually a FR PrC - it's from Masters of the Wild, a 3.0e book (that isn't Realms-specific).

[Waker]

Well, I think the advantages of playing a Shugenja versus say a Favored Soul are a few small advantages. You've got a fairly decentish skill list and a few skill points to spend on it. You are SAD (unlike Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman) and your main attribute is Charisma, which can be beneficial as far as multi-classing synergies go (Mystic Theurge, Paladin dips...) As far as I'm aware, most if not all Divine Casters require Wisdom or Wisdom and Charisma as an attribute, Shugenja is the only Divine Charisma based class that I can think of.
I don't think the Shugenja is super powerful, but it's not that terrible a class.

[Alabenson]

Honestly? There's not much if you compare it to other classes. It's definitely a lower tier class, I'd peg it around tier 4/5 border myself. It basically has all the weaknesses of both Divine Casters, Specialist Wizards, Spontaneous Casters and Preparation Casters all at the same time.

And not exactly any of their strengths either.

If you have the option to be a Shugenja, or a Druid, or a Cleric, or a Sorcerer, or a Favored Soul, as far as "Sheer Power" goes, there's no reason to pick Shugenja. If you are worried about needing to gear down so you don't overshadow your team that consists of an OA Samurai, a Ninja, a Ranger and a Paladin, then it's a good option.

I mean, breaking it down:

1) You are a spontaneous caster, with the usual metamagic delays, limits on spells known, slower spell level progression, etc.

2) Like a Specialist Wizard you have to axe out an entire element in order to automatically specialize in an Element. There is no Generalist Option, no "Domain Wizard" equivalent, etc. There is no clear "Automatically weaker" element either that you can feel comfortable dropping, the specialization is fixed so whatever you choose to specialize in automatically determines your barred element. As well you have to have at least half your known spells be of that element, further handicapping you from picking up all the utility across the 3 elements you actually have access to.

3) Note that unlike every other divine caster in existence, the Shugenja isn't actually proficient in Armor or any weapons other than Simple and the Wakizashi. Not so much a concern for higher level play, but it makes them the weakest of the Divine casters at low level, coupled with the d6 hit dice rather than D8.

4) What I think is perhaps the killer for the Shugenja, despite the fact that you are in fact a Spontaneous Caster, you are effectively "Spellbook limited", as Shugenjas cast their spells off holy scrolls, and without those scrolls you cannot cast any spells. So if you don't have your "Spellbook" on hand the moment you want to cast something, you're barely better than a Commoner.

5) Lack of any real class features. Sense Elements is... eh. It has enough limitations upon it between Times Per Day, and the very, very crappy range on it (10 feet plus 5 per level) that I have honestly never seen it even marginally useful.

I don't totally agree with your assessment of the class. Yes, the Shugenja is much weaker than Wizard, Cleric or Druid, but that's not entirely a bad thing. Personally, I'd peg the class at about Tier 3/4 range; while their spell list is notably weaker than the big 3, it still has a notable number of decent options, and Water/Fire both could be seen a "weak" elements that can be safely dropped.

[Vaz]

Edit; this last post came off as a little rude.

What I mean to say is judging anything by T1 is a mistake. T1 is broken, and is enough to control the game. It is a T3 Caster, which can be tailored to whichever role you desire; Transport+Divinations, Healing+Resurrecting, Blowing Stuff Up, and Buffing.

It's not at the same sort of quality as a Druid, Cleric or Wizard, but there's around ~30 other base classes which aren't, either.

It is capable of batting around in the same level as a Warblade, Factotum, Duskblade, Dragonfire Adept etc, and definately capable of getting up to Tier 2 with increased spell access; which is where I was coming from, when I gave it an additional 23 Spells to choose from to allow it to fulfil all roles.

Arcturus, all of your complaints stem from the fact that you've not actually played one. And, in regards to the Hexer being overpowered (and aside from the fact it's not actually a part of the FR setting, but non-specific), you've clearly never attempted to get Lightning Bolt as a Divine Spell.

The Adept is the only class aside from the Shugenja and Sha'Ir that qualifies as entry into the Hexer; and as neither of those latter were 3.0 Material, it was clearly were not designed in mind for PC's. It has a couple of abilities that make it pretty decent (it's Evil Eye Hexes), but my favourite is that it gets Divine Casting of Sor/Wiz only; Lightning Bolt is one such spell, others include Wings of Cover is another. So, not only do you have that issue to get into it, but you need to be of a monstrous humanoid or giant, or a particuarly primitive humanoid; this is again, further DM territory, and the only non-DM territory race with a Cha bonus is a Primordial Half Giant, which has a LA of +1.

The Shugenja itself is a decent class. NOWHERE near the Tier 5 standard you suggested, Arcturus.

[Zaq]

I've spent some time thinking about where to put the Shugenja in the tier system, and I can't come up with a conclusion that satisfies me.

Argument for T2: They've got 9th level spells, they're full casters through and through, and they get to choose their own spell list. Even if they're obviously not on par with the Sorcerer, they can be compared to, at least, the Wilder. They might not get as many spells as they'd like, but those spells are still powerful.

Argument for T3: The fact that they have to specialize means that they can't have all the answers. Spells are still, well, spells, and when they have the right tool for the job, all is well, but they can't have the answer for everything. Still, it's rare for a full caster to be totally without some way to contribute, at least if they don't intentionally pigeonhole themselves into a single trick. Point of comparison: Bard.

Argument for T4: Since the Shugenja has to ban an element entirely and has to devote fully half of their known spells to their chosen element, they cannot achieve broad-based versatility and utility without shenanigans. Every spell they choose has a disproportionate opportunity cost compared to, for instance, the spells known by a Favored Soul. In particular, if a Shugenja wants any kind of utility, they pretty much have to be Fire or Water, since it's really, really hard to entirely give up Air or Earth, as they have the broadest utility. That makes really frighteningly few spells known for your mobility, illusions, buffs, and BfC (in other words, most of the stuff that makes casters good). While they can take utility spells, they don't have the space to actually make themselves good and versatile casters. Point of comparison: Shadowcaster. If a Shadowcaster just learned mysteries like a Sorcerer learns spells, they'd be a perfectly respectable class, since mysteries are pretty cool overall. The problem is that each one carries a disproportionate opportunity cost, between the bizarre use-per-day mechanics and the restrictive path system. The Shugenja has it a little better than the Shadowcaster, but they're a lot closer to the Shadowcaster than they are to pretty much any other caster in this regard.

I can honestly see an argument for any of them.

If I were in a low-op game and someone asked me to play a caster, I could see myself playing a Shugenja. It would probably be easier and more fun than just taking a Sorcerer and making bad decisions, since when I need to tone down my overall power level, I find that I prefer to take a weak class and juice it up to par rather than to take a strong class and intentionally gimp myself. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. They're never going to be on par with Sorcerers, but honestly, that's not really a bad thing.

Of course, Sense Elements is just laughably bad. I've never seen a class feature so clumsily designed that the example given in the book explicitly says that it's not likely to actually be useful, but that's exactly what happens with Sense Elements.

[Zombulian]

Ah I never really noticed that Fire Shuggies get Lightning Bolt. That's pretty dope right there. I don't care so much about tiers, but it was confusing to me while reading the class... Why anyone would play one. It just didn't seem like it had anything special about it (I mean even Healers have some special class features).
But I do definitely understand the feeling of wanting to play a toned down caster, especially in my group.

[BWR]

As I pointed out, you play one because that's the spellcaster you get in Rokugan. The d20 shugenja is an adaptation of the R&K shugenja, with some odd conversion choices, like entirely banning one element instead of reducing proficiency with it.
In R&K, shugenja have an affinity with one element (meaning they cast them more powerfully and get earlier access to more powerful spells), a deficiency (meaning they cast them less powerfully and get later access to them) with another, not necessarily the opposing element, and two elements they cast at normal power.

One fix that AEG presented for the d20 shugenja was the Elemental Versatility feat, which allowed you to learn spells from your barred element as though they were three levels higher (so a fire shuggie could learn Cure Light Wounds as a 4th level spell). Granting this as a class ability would go a little way toward fixing the shuggie and making it work more like its original.

"Way of the Shugenja" and "Magic of Rokugan" have new spells, feats and PrCs for shugenja, helping somewhat.

[ArcturusV]

My bad. When I looked up the PrC, it said "from Forgotten Realms" on my quick web search.

Yeah, I've actually played Shugenjas. They are clearly less powerful, for Divine Casters. I don't MIND playing them, least in a lower power game where I'm not dealing with players who want to be the much higher powered characters. But if I was going into a game where everyone was playing Druids, Wizards, Psions, Sorcerers, Erudites, etc, I wouldn't pick a Shugenja at all. But as I said, if I was playing in a game where we had a Samurai, Ninja, Ranger, Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, etc, yeah, I wouldn't mind throwing in with a Shugenja, and have.

[Zombulian]

As I pointed out, you play one because that's the spellcaster you get in Rokugan. The d20 shugenja is an adaptation of the R&K shugenja, with some odd conversion choices, like entirely banning one element instead of reducing proficiency with it.
In R&K, shugenja have an affinity with one element (meaning they cast them more powerfully and get earlier access to more powerful spells), a deficiency (meaning they cast them less powerfully and get later access to them) with another, not necessarily the opposing element, and two elements they cast at normal power.

One fix that AEG presented for the d20 shugenja was the Elemental Versatility feat, which allowed you to learn spells from your barred element as though they were three levels higher (so a fire shuggie could learn Cure Light Wounds as a 4th level spell). Granting this as a class ability would go a little way toward fixing the shuggie and making it work more like its original.

"Way of the Shugenja" and "Magic of Rokugan" have new spells, feats and PrCs for shugenja, helping somewhat.

Ooh yeah, one of the PrC's from WotS lets you learn Mindblank. So that's cool.

Edit: book also gives variant schools and class features. I like this.