One handed longspear. Overpowered?

[TripleD]

My players have a chance to visit the ruins of an Bronze-age civilization. The central mausoleum is guarded by the mummy of a warlord who fights with a longspear and shield.

The problem is that I can't find any way (rule wise) that would let you fight this way. There are three possible solutions I've thought of, but I'm not sure which one is the best choice.

Option #1 - New Weapon


Doru
Type: Exotic Single-Handed Melee
Critical: (19-20) x3
Damage: 1d8
Damage-Type: Piercing

A Doru is a spear with a counter-balance added which allows it to be wielded with one hand. It has a reach of 10 feet and may not be used against an adjacent foe. Like a longspear, may be readied against a charge for double damage.

As with many other exotic weapons (Boolas, Atlatls, etc.) if you are from a culture where Doru's are commonly used, you may treat them as martial weapons.


Option #2 - New Feat


Doru Fighter
Prerequisites: Str 13, Weapon Specialization(Longspear)
Benefits: You may wield a longspear in one hand at no penalty


Option #3 - Ignore It

If a character has a Strength score greater than 13, and Weapon Specialization(Longspear), the may wield a longspear with one hand.


Basically, I want there to be some kind of investment involved for being able to use a one handed reach weapon. Right now I'm leaning towards #1, because it will let my mummy use the spear at no penalty while at the same time deny my players from picking it up and using it right away. I'm just wondering if there's something here I'm not thinking of, or a pre-existing rule I overlooked.

[Rubik]

Two-handers are much better than one-handers in almost every conceivable way, so wielding a longspear one-handed wouldn't be out of the question at all.

[ArcturusV]

Well, you could go something like the Bastard Sword, make it 2 handed normally, but 1 handed with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Just with a standard EWP, not making it a Feat Chain as per your option). That would be somewhat in line as there is already a one handed reach weapon in the game (It is exotic), and the Bastard Sword rule, making it at least feel somewhat familiar. And kinda makes an intuitive sense that the standard longspear and great shield Hoplite put a feat tax in to fight like that.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah.
A one-handed melee weapon cannot be overpowered, so your idea it's only an improvement. I like it, use the option 1 or 2.

[eggynack]

If a player really wants to wield a longspear in one hand, and a shield in the other, I'd probably let him do it without any cost at all. Sword and board is a pretty suboptimal fighting style, so that's enough of a hit on its own that you shouldn't even require the weapon specialization. Far from being overpowered, this option is severely underpowered. You're cutting your potential damage by a pretty significant margin, and you're not getting much in return.

[JaronK]

Note that there's a feat, Shield and Pike style, that allows this without house rules.

JaronK

[Vknight]

Note that there's a feat, Shield and Pike style, that allows this without house rules.

JaronK

Book for myself and op...
This always bugs me people site oh this. And never say the source

[TripleD]

ArcturusV:
That makes sense, and it keeps things as close to RAW as possible. I'll probably end up using that idea as a general rule in the future, although I like the idea of the Dory as loot from the "big boss". Thanks.

[Seffbasilisk]

Book for myself and op...
This always bugs me people site oh this. And never say the source

First result on google.

Dragon Magazine 338. Only downside I see to it, is that it requires a light shield. Other than that, it lets you use a longspear and a shield like you said.

[Vknight]

First result on google.

Dragon Magazine 338. Only downside I see to it, is that it requires a light shield. Other than that, it lets you use a longspear and a shield like you said.

It's the principle of the matter

[TripleD]

Dragon Magazine 338. Only downside I see to it, is that it requires a light shield. Other than that, it lets you use a longspear and a shield like you said.

Hmmm... that's a little bit too far outside of core for my liking. Generally I try to limit my games to the "Complete", "Races", and environment books.

@Eggynack

Good point, and one I've been turning over in my head. The thing is, this isn't sword-and-board, it's spear-and-board. You get an attack of opportunity every time an opponent steps from 10 feet to five feet to attack you. I was thinking that you could combine this with shield-bashing feats to create a memorable (if not particularly effective) encounter.

[eggynack]

@Eggynack

Good point, and one I've been turning over in my head. The thing is, this isn't sword-and-board, it's shield-and-board. You get an attack of opportunity every time an opponent steps from 10 feet to five feet to attack you. I was thinking that you could combine this with shield-bashing feats and 5-foot steps to create a memorable (if not particularly effective) encounter.
I suppose that the real thing that I hadn't considered was that this was for an encounter, rather than for a player. It's possible that you'd toss a justifying feat on the monster, and then let a player get away with just skipping it if that's a path they choose to pursue. Still, this is all really far from being overpowered, so you shouldn't worry too much about it, if that's your primary concern. The damage potential underlying the whole thing is just significantly lower than if he were just two handing it, and he'd be getting the AoO's in that situation anyway. Getting 1.5*strength mod, and a 2:1 return on power attack, just makes a huge difference. If your main goal is to just play a game of infinite defensive keep away, you may want to consider tripping. Toss on some improved trip, knock down, and maybe combat reflexes, and you have a pretty solid build.

[TripleD]

If your main goal is to just play a game of infinite defensive keep away, you may want to consider tripping. Toss on some improved trip, knock down, and maybe combat reflexes, and you have a pretty solid build.

I like that idea. It ties into a campaign point about how the undead warlord is actually a red-herring (big bad is somewhere else). He's there to protect the bodies of the kings and nobles; making him more of a "controlling fighter" who tries to move the combat somewhere else would be subtle hint to give.

[Chronos]

The OP's proposed weapon has another issue, besides being a one-handed reach weapon: It's got both improved crit chance and improved crit damage. (Almost) all other weapons have at most one or the other: Having both makes it pretty much a must-have for crit-based builds. Spears generally fall under the "increased multiplier" category, though for a weapon that already has one unusual advantage (one-handed reach), it might be reasonable to not give either (the popular spiked chain, which also has an unusual property relating to reach, is another 20/x2 weapon).

[Deophaun]

(the popular spiked chain, which also has an unusual property relating to reach, is another 20/x2 weapon).
But the drow scorpion chain is 19-20/x2.

Exotic weapons should be good enough that it's worth blowing a feat to get them. The spiked chain is unusual in that it exactly is on that side of the line where people are willing to consider it (although it doesn't make much sense when you consider you can do almost the same thing with a guisarme and armor spikes.) The proposed weapon here seems appropriate. One-handed reach is unusual, but not all that powerful (two-handed weapons have advantages all their own). The expanded crit-range and higher multiplier are what make it a good candidate for a feat.

[Invader]

Hmmm... that's a list too far outside of core for my liking. Generally I try to limit my games to the "Complete", "Races", and environment books.


How is published WotC material more "outside of core" than homebrewing your own rules to do what you want? :smallconfused:

[Invader]

It's the principle of the matter

Maybe he didn't know where it came from? I know lots of items and feats and information but couldn't tell you what books they were from. As its been pointed out its not to hard to find the information if you're pointed in the right direction.

[Raineh Daze]

Wouldn't Strongarm Bracers work for this? I can never remember. :smallconfused:

[TripleD]

How is published WotC material more "outside of core" than homebrewing your own rules to do what you want? :smallconfused:

My bad. That was a poorly worded reply to you.

What I meant was that I generally don't like to homebrew if there's already an existing feat, and my players and I have an informal agreement about which sources are kosher for feats and prestige classes. Dragon magazine generally falls into out of bounds territory.

But your right, it was hypocritical of me.

[Feint's End]

The OP's proposed weapon has another issue, besides being a one-handed reach weapon: It's got both improved crit chance and improved crit damage. (Almost) all other weapons have at most one or the other: Having both makes it pretty much a must-have for crit-based builds. Spears generally fall under the "increased multiplier" category, though for a weapon that already has one unusual advantage (one-handed reach), it might be reasonable to not give either (the popular spiked chain, which also has an unusual property relating to reach, is another 20/x2 weapon).

You forget two things though. First is that Exotic Weapons are in general never worth the feattax (with Spiked Chain and Minotaur Greathammer being two rare exceptions) and that you can use the Spiked Chain on Enemies standing next to you making usage of unarmed attacks, armor spikes etc unnecessary.

As for Op ... Either let them use Longspears one-handed without a feat at all or use number 1.

[TripleD]

The OP's proposed weapon has another issue, besides being a one-handed reach weapon: It's got both improved crit chance and improved crit damage.

That's weird. According to the online SRD I use, the critical damage for a longspear is x3. I don't have a copy of the paper book with me right now, is that not correct?

I bumped up the crit range because I thought there should be a bit of compensation for:
a) Needing a feat to use it (usually)
b) Losing the two handed damage bonus if it is used in its intended manner (one handed)

[Invader]

That's weird. According to the online SRD I use, the critical damage for a Longspear is x3. I don't have a copy of the paper book with me right now, is that not correct?

I bumped up the crit range because I thought there should be a bit of compensation for:
a) Needing a feat to use it (usually)
b) Losing the two handed damage bonus if it is used in its intended manner (one handed)

It's just x3 in the pub, not 19-20 x3 but I still don't think that's out of the realm of possibilities.

[Renegade Paladin]

In Pathfinder using a polearm as a one-handed weapon with a shield is the third level ability of the Phalanx Soldier fighter archetype. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/phalanx-soldier)

[Chronos]

You don't need to "compensate for" a weapon being one-handed. All else being equal, a one-handed weapon is strictly better than a two-handed weapon. Remember, you can always wield a one-handed weapon two-handed, if you want, and get all the benefits of doing so, but you can't wield a two-handed weapon one-handed without huge penalties. One-handed gives you more options.

Now, one-handed weapons are usually lower damage than their two-handed weapons, so all else isn't equal. That's why the greatsword is preferred over the longsword. But in this case, the proposed one-handed weapon has the same damage as the two-handed equivalent, so that's not an issue.

What it comes down to, is if you have proficiency with both, you'd always be better off using this new weapon rather than a longspear, even if you always intend to use it two-handed.

[Ernir]

I am playing in a game where you can use a spear/longspear one-handed by taking a -2 penalty on the relevant attack rolls. Works out well enough.

[Deophaun]

What it comes down to, is if you have proficiency with both, you'd always be better off using this new weapon rather than a longspear, even if you always intend to use it two-handed.
I would hope so, as that weapon requires a feat to be able to use.

[Siosilvar]

What it comes down to, is if you have proficiency with both, you'd always be better off using this new weapon rather than a longspear, even if you always intend to use it two-handed.

If you spent a feat on it, that'd better be the case, or you've probably wasted your feat.

[ericgrau]

It's fine for a feat or exotic weapon. In high optimization it's fine for anyone with martial weapon proficiency. But then in high optimization everyone is going to be a THF shock trooper regardless so I prefer not to use author oversights as a balance point. It's still ok as a martial weapon in "medium-high" optimization though.