Factotum, Legacy Tricksters and ToB

[Piggy Knowles]

So, I've been messing around with a fairly simple build stub for a factotum/initiating combo. The goal initially was just to get both Cunning Surge and 9th-level maneuvers on a build, but that being done, I decided to see where else I could take this.

I don't have anything too much to say about this, but using at least four levels of Legacy Champion (or Uncanny Trickster) alongside at least 9 levels of initiating classes means you can wind up with IL 17 and still have eight levels to spare. As I was poking around, I thought I'd see if anyone else had any thoughts on fun things that could be done with this.

Here is the initial build:

STANDARD VERSION:
Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10

FEATS: Least Legacy and a whole boatload of FoI

Use Legacy Champion to advance Warblade. End result is a factotum 8 with an IL of 19 and 9th-level maneuvers.

After messing around with it a bit, I thought of some other options that could be fun...

CHAMELEON VERSION:
Factotum 8/Warblade 1/Chameleon 2/Legacy Champion 6/Uncanny Trickster 3

Same as above but add in Able Learner.

End result is IL 17 for 9th-level maneuvers, plus a dip into Chameleon for the floating bonus feat. Kinda meh, I think I prefer the more straightforward 8/2/10 build.

Mo9 VERSION:
Factotum 8/Warblade 4/Master of Nine 4/Legacy Champion 4

Required feats: Adaptive Style, Least Legacy, IUS, Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Martial Study.

LC advances Mo9. Crazy feat-heavy, meaning there's not really any room for FoI. But it does get a metric crapton of maneuvers, dual stance and counter stance. That's got to be worth something, right?

These are just my initial thoughts and about two minutes of poking around. Anything else fun that can be done with this?

[thethird]

I've explored that way in the past.

Consider using legacy champion to advance uncanny trickster for extra skill tricks. :smalltongue:

Or enter a loop... :smallamused:

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, I was thinking that the Chameleon version should do just that. Unfortunately though, as much as I love Uncanny Trickster, Legacy Champion is just better suited for this overall unless you happen to have an odd number of available levels (which leads to non-optimal end results anyhow, since you round down).

[Chronos]

This is assuming you can find a DM who will allow Legacy Champion to advance IL faster than the class it's emulating.

[Piggy Knowles]

This is assuming you can find a DM who will allow Legacy Champion to advance IL faster than the class it's emulating.

Sure, that goes without saying. It works by RAW but, as is the case with most Legacy Trickster shenanigans, could easily be called out as foul play by a DM. (Although advancing Master of Nine past fifth level would still be fun for the ridiculous number of maneuvers from any discipline, even without getting +1.5 IL for each level.)

But assuming that it hasn't been rule zero'd, what other fun things can be done with this?

[123456789blaaa]

Your first build is quite similar to this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14842767&postcount=53)except yours has more IL. You could take some pointers from it.

[prufock]

Can someone fill me in on what I'm missing here? Because my calculations are (I think) only giving me ILs of 14 (standard), 13 (chameleon), and 13 (Mo9).

[Piggy Knowles]

Build 1:

Factotum 8/Warblade 2/Legacy Champion 10

Actual warblade levels: 2
Effective warblade levels from legacy champion: 8
Non-initiating class levels: 18

2+8+(.5*18)=19

Build 2:

Factotum 8/Warblade 1/Chameleon 2/Legacy Champion 6/Uncanny Trickster 3

Actual warblade levels: 1
Effective warblade levels from legacy champion/uncanny trickster: 7
Non-initiating class levels: 19

1+7+(.5*19)=17.5, rounded down to 17

Build 3:

Factotum 8/Warblade 4/Mo9 4/Legacy Champion 4

Actual warblade levels: 4
Actual Mo9 levels: 4
Effective Mo9 levels from legacy champion: 3
Non-initiating class levels: 12

4+4+3+(.5*12)=17

....basically, this abuses the fact that legacy champion and uncanny trickster are not technically initiating classes, and therefore get half their levels counted when calculating IL. So, every level that LC/UT uses to progress an initiating class essentially boosts your IL by +1.5.

[prufock]

Ahh, so you're doubling down on Legacy Champion, I get it now, thanks for explaining. Clever, but questionable to say the least. I'm not even sure it works RAW, because it seems like some clauses contradict each other, and I don't know which should take precedence. I see what Chronos meant, anyway.

But if we're going by RAW, the prestige class note in Initiator Level says that they usually add the full prc level to IL, so Legacy Champion should really get 10+8 over 10 levels, shouldn't it? I think it's fairly obvious that this was meant to apply only to classes in ToB, but it doesn't say that and gives a general case.

[Darrin]

But if we're going by RAW, the prestige class note in Initiator Level says that they usually add the full prc level to IL, so Legacy Champion should really get 10+8 over 10 levels, shouldn't it? I think it's fairly obvious that this was meant to apply only to classes in ToB, but it doesn't say that and gives a general case.

No, each level of Legacy Champion (1-10) counts as +0.5 IL. This assumes that the text in ToB about prestige classes advancing full IL only apply to those classes that advance maneuvers/stances (that is, every PrC in ToB except Bloodstorm Blade).

Legacy Champion levels 2 to 6 and 8 to 10 also advance the class abilities of one of your other classes. When you apply this to a Martial Adept class, you get +1.0 IL just as if you had gained a level of Swordsage, Warblade, etc. This is just the same as if you had used Legacy Champion to advance a spellcaster: they get additional spells per day and +1 caster level, just as they would for gaining another spellcaster level.

(This trick is how I got my Archon of Nine build to get all nine 9th level maneuvers by ECL 20.)

[magwaaf]

my dm won't run a gestalt game because i let slip my factotum/warblade build idea

[prufock]

No, each level of Legacy Champion (1-10) counts as +0.5 IL. This assumes that the text in ToB about prestige classes advancing full IL only apply to those classes that advance maneuvers/stances (that is, every PrC in ToB except Bloodstorm Blade).
That's what I mean, the text does not say that, it just says "prestige classes usually do X." RAI, sure, but RAW I think PrCs should apply a 1:1 ratio unless otherwise stated.