Carrying Ammo

[SciChronic]

How do you guys go about carrying ammo for your ranged weaponry without over encumbering yourself?

Specifically i'm looking for way to increase the amount of bolts i can carry around for my light crossbow. I already have quick-loading but i'm looking for ways to carry more ammunition in case the 100 bolts run out. I have 5581 gold pieces left to spend on items and ammo, and can carry another 8 pounds before i go into my medium load.

[koboldish]

Just buy a Heward's Handy Haversack. It's a move action to draw the bolts out, but you should never need more than 100 in a single fight and you can restock your quiver after each battle. Make sure to cover the tips so you don't puncture the inside of the bag.

[SciChronic]

I already have a haversack, and i only have 8 pounds of open space left. Also i'm super wary of having the bolt puncture the bag and then losing 6000gp in various stuff on top of the haversack.

It's not an issue of using all my bolts in 1 fight, its an issue of being in a situation where i'm far from a town for an extended period of time where there could be over 5 encounters between places where i can restock, if the even have enough ammo for me to buy. With rapid shot, burning through 2+ bolts per round of combat, only having 50 rounds worth of ammunition can cause me to run out of ammo rather quick. Especially considering i want to have a small amount of magic ammo stocked in the quickload for pocket situations.

[Grayson01]

Put the Bolts in a Quiver then put them in the haversack. Also look in the DMG PG 265 Quiver of Ehlonna might help, just don't put the Quiver of Ehlonna in the haversack.


I already have a haversack, and i only have 8 pounds of open space left. Also i'm super wary of having the bolt puncture the bag and then losing 6000gp in various stuff on top of the haversack.

It's not an issue of using all my bolts in 1 fight, its an issue of being in a situation where i'm far from a town for an extended period of time where there could be over 5 encounters between places where i can restock, if the even have enough ammo for me to buy. With rapid shot, burning through 2+ bolts per round of combat, only having 50 rounds worth of ammunition can cause me to run out of ammo rather quick. Especially considering i want to have a small amount of magic ammo stocked in the quickload for pocket situations.

[Fyermind]

buy another haversack?

I had a crossbow user who went through bolts very fast.
He threatened a critical on a 15-20. Every threat earned him and extra attack. Every confirmed critical earned him an extra attack. I started each round with 6 attacks. All attacks were doubled. At level 12. Against mid AC targets with half his attacks hitting he unloaded 120 bolts or 12 pounds of iron into his foes every round. If he hit on a 7 he could on average fire indefinitely that round


I found no perfect solution. Wearing multiple quiver's of ehlonna worked the best for me. Getting raptor arrows redesigned as bolts may also be up your alley.

[TaiLiu]

Also i'm super wary of having the bolt puncture the bag and then losing 6000gp in various stuff on top of the haversack.
I'm reading the description of the Handy Haversack, and I don't see the same piercing clause as the Bag of Holding.

[SciChronic]

While quiver of Ehlonna can carry 60 arrows/bolts in one of its pockets, can you place more into the other pockets? and if so, how many?


I'm reading the description of the Handy Haversack, and I don't see the same piercing clause as the Bag of Holding.


A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
advantages and disadvantages of bag of holding apply here.

[ArcturusV]

I don't think that quite follows. It is referencing Bag of Holding in that it's Bigger on the Inside. I don't think it means "Apply all rules from Bag of Holding to this".

[undead hero]

I don't think that quite follows. It is referencing Bag of Holding in that it's Bigger on the Inside. I don't think it means "Apply all rules from Bag of Holding to this".

Let's throw it in a portable hole and find out

[Malroth]

if pathfinder stuff is on the table then I'd reccomend a wand of extended Ant Haul If not Then i'd reccomend a couple jugs of shapesand you form into bolts and then reform after every battle.

[Hruken]

Simple, don't carry it yourself. Buy/acquire a pack mule/horse/dog/hireling or whatever, and make it carry your extra ammunition. Get creative with it. Or convince a fellow party member to carry some extra. Refill your carried supplies in between battles.

[SciChronic]

I don't think that quite follows. It is referencing Bag of Holding in that it's Bigger on the Inside. I don't think it means "Apply all rules from Bag of Holding to this".

they are made using the same spell, and function the same way, its safe to assume that they have the same flaw.

Also, my question still stands about the Quiver of Ehlonna. While one pocket holds 60 bolts, can the other pockets made to hold bows and javelins hold bolts as well? If so, how many?

[Kane0]

Alternatively work with your DM to make a magic quiver that suits you.
Maybe one that replenishes 2 non-magic arrows per round (max 6), with greater version making 4 per turn (max 10).
Or a quiver that acts as a handy haversack/bag of holding but only for one kind of ammunition, not taking anything else and allowing you to draw the ammunition as part of the action to load your weapon.

[kreenlover]

Isn't there a psionic power called bolt?
Oh look. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bolt.htm)
Yes, in fact there is. This seems like the answer to your problems. Get a Universal Item (psionics creation rules, should be 2000 gp, just like a magic item of spell level one)
This allows it to be a use activated item of Bolt. Everytime you need to draw an arrow, it creates another +1 arrow. Forever.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A haversack can store 120 pounds,
10 bolts weigh 1lb
Which means a single haversack can store 1200 bolts. Maybe knock off a 100lbs to account for the weight of the quivers for 1100 bolts.


I don't think that quite follows. It is referencing Bag of Holding in that it's Bigger on the Inside. I don't think it means "Apply all rules from Bag of Holding to this".

It stands to reason that it would follow all the same rules. If you put a sharp object in a non-magical sack you run the risk of if it piercing the side and rupturing the bag. Haven't you ever had something sharp rip open a bag of garbage as you carrying out to the curb? I don't think that should change just because a bag is bigger on the inside for any reason.

However a Haversack is made of tanned leather not cloth so its unlikely for a sharp object to pierce it on accident. Now if you dropped 70 pounds of gold on top of a knife that might do the trick but you probably won't have much issue with most objects.


Also, my question still stands about the Quiver of Ehlonna. While one pocket holds 60 bolts, can the other pockets made to hold bows and javelins hold bolts as well? If so, how many?
Iffy the quiver says it holds this kind of item in that slot, even if the bow slot can hold bolts or arrows trying to figure out how many would be a lot of math. As I said above you can always put the bolts into a regular quiver before placing them in haversack and as I said the haversack is made of tanned leather a much more durable material then the cloth bag of holding.

[Splendor]

Note:
"Bolts: A crossbow bolt used as a melee weapon is treated as a light
improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as
a dagger of its size (crit ×2). Bolts come in a wooden case that holds
10 bolts (or 5, for a repeating crossbow)." - PHB pg 115

So if your using the PHB weight & cost for bolts, you don't ever have to worry about them puncturing anything since they come in a little wooden case.

[Devronq]

buy another haversack?

I had a crossbow user who went through bolts very fast.
He threatened a critical on a 15-20. Every threat earned him and extra attack. Every confirmed critical earned him an extra attack. I started each round with 6 attacks. All attacks were doubled. At level 12. Against mid AC targets with half his attacks hitting he unloaded 120 bolts or 12 pounds of iron into his foes every round. If he hit on a 7 he could on average fire indefinitely that round


I found no perfect solution. Wearing multiple quiver's of ehlonna worked the best for me. Getting raptor arrows redesigned as bolts may also be up your alley.

Whoah um how do you do this exactly? Weapon aptitude and lightning maces i assume? Could i get a build example please

[Uncle Pine]

You could just tweak the Quiver of Plenty or the Quiver of Anariel so that they provide bolts instead of arrows.
Quiver of Plenty is from DM #328 (or Dragon Compendium): it can create an infinite number of steel/silver/cold iron arrows and 5 adamantine arrows per day for a mere 18.000 gp.
Quiver of Anariel is like the deluxe (and way more expensive) version of the Quiver of Plenty: it's from the WotC site, but the page's been removed. I found his description here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10211158&postcount=6) and here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?172874-Wizards-tookdown-the-web-page-with-elven-longbow-quiver-of-anariel-stats).

[SciChronic]

18000gp is a bit much for my ECL 9 character that my concern is over, taking half of his WBL. Also as i stated on the first post i've spent all but about 5500gp, have 8 pounds of carry weight open, and another 8 pounds open in my haversack.

[Uncle Pine]

18000gp is a bit much for my ECL 9 character that my concern is over, taking half of his WBL. Also as i stated on the first post i've spent all but about 5500gp, have 8 pounds of carry weight open, and another 8 pounds open in my haversack.

Oh, sorry then. I missed that :smallredface:

[Crasical]

Efficient Quiver? 1,800 gold, weighs two pounds, never increases in weight no matter what you put into it?

[Kudaku]

You may have mentioned what system you're using but if so I missed it, so I'm going to suggest some pathfinder solutions.

Durable Arrows are normal arrows except they don't break when hitting the target, meaning you can recover them and fire them again. You might need to ask your gm, but personally I'd have no problem with Durable bolts as well.

There is a 1st level ranger/wizard spell that magically replaces all no magical ammunition you fire off from a container - a wand could do the trick I think.

[SciChronic]

i'm trying to keep it down to 3.0 and 3.5, as we don't actually have pathfinder books on hand.

[Harlot]

I already have a haversack, and i only have 8 pounds of open space left. Also i'm super wary of having the bolt puncture the bag and then losing 6000gp in various stuff on top of the haversack.

Is there any reason why you can't have two? One Haversack for your stuff and one for your bolts?

+ I can't see any rule that directly states that you cannot have a haversack inside another haversack. Anyone?

(Yes, there's the haversack/portable black hole problem - but this is haversack in haversack?)
As written, the bolts are in boxes, + the haversack is made of leather, so it'll hold.

EDIT: sorry, just saw that this has been suggested by others. Well, it does seem like the obvious and cheaper solution.

[Crake]

Isn't there a psionic power called bolt?
Oh look. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bolt.htm)
Yes, in fact there is. This seems like the answer to your problems. Get a Universal Item (psionics creation rules, should be 2000 gp, just like a magic item of spell level one)
This allows it to be a use activated item of Bolt. Everytime you need to draw an arrow, it creates another +1 arrow. Forever.

Considering the rules say that activating an item that duplicates a spell (or in this case a power) always takes at least as long as the power would take to cast, for this to be plausible you'd need to have a quickened bolt in it rather than a normal one. So it would be 2000x1(1st level power, your DM might adjust this to 1+3 from quicken)x7(minimum manifester level) so you're looking at 14,000 at the very least, up to 56,000 if your DM is a hard-ass. It's either that or spend a standard action every 2d4 shots to get more ammo. Of course, you can always pick up a familiar who can activate the item for you every round to keep making ammo. Then it would indeed just cost 2000gp

[Kudaku]

i'm trying to keep it down to 3.0 and 3.5, as we don't actually have pathfinder books on hand.

I understand, but for ease of reference - both durable arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-durable) and Abundant Ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) (the spell) are available online, on the PFSRD. You don't actually need the books :smallsmile:

As for 3.5 solutions, I haven't used that ruleset in some time so I don't really have any ideas apart from what's already been suggested.

However... Have you considered attacking the problem from other angles? You could either lower the weight by dropping some items you're already carrying, or you could use various ways to increase the amount of stuff you'd be able to carry. I'm sure some of the 3.x buffs will have plenty of suggestions for either option.

Barring those options, a magical quiver or raptor arrows is probably your best bet.

[SciChronic]

I understand, but for ease of reference - both durable arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-durable) and Abundant Ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) (the spell) are available online, on the PFSRD. You don't actually need the books :smallsmile:

As for 3.5 solutions, I haven't used that ruleset in some time so I don't really have any ideas apart from what's already been suggested.

However... Have you considered attacking the problem from other angles? You could either lower the weight by dropping some items you're already carrying, or you could use various ways to increase the amount of stuff you'd be able to carry. I'm sure some of the 3.x buffs will have plenty of suggestions for either option.

Barring those options, a magical quiver or raptor arrows is probably your best bet.
its an issue of having a 10 for Str and only being able to carry 33lbs without going into my medium load. my armor and equipment put me up to 20 lbs alone, the haversack putting me up to 25. The haversack is actually a pretty standard survival sack with some less than optimal substitutions for books we don't have.

if you want to look at the inventory as of right now:
Aboleth Mucus
Animal Call
Antitoxin(4)
Auran Mask
Bitterleaf Oil(2)
Cablespool
Candle, Focusing
Candle, Insectbane(10)
Chaos Flask(2)
Clearwater Tablet
Defoliator
Earplugs
Expandable Pole
Fast Torch
Flint and Steel
Flour Pouch(4)
Garlic(10)
Grapplinghook, Collapsable
Hammer
Healing Salve
Hearthfire
Holy Water
Gut Mites
Lasso
Magnet
Magnifying Glass
Manacles, Masterwork
Marbles(4)
Needle
Net
Oil
Piton(10)
Periscope, Hand
Rope Climber
Rope Silk
Rust Monster wand
Sack
Shapesand
Slippery Oil
Sparker
Sprayer
Stonebreaker Acid
Suregrip
Tarpaulin, Honeyleather
Taglefoot Bag(3)
Wick, Candle
Magic Bedroll
Troll Gut Rope
Ioun Stone (Continuous Flame)
Everfull Mug
Healing Belt
Quarter Staff
Glass Cutter
100 copper coins
100 silver coins
100 gold coins

weight: 112
The extra coins are for when i skim from loot (i'm a thief).

[Kudaku]

Yikes, someone's read the indispensable haversack thread :smallbiggrin:

I'm reasonably sure you can shave some weight off on that list. Off the top of my head I'd say drop the Quarterstaff (replace it with a lighter bludgeoning weapon if necessary). 4 lb would give you another 40 bolts, which is a good start. 10 pitons is another 5 lb, which could be 50 bolts.

Is there anyone else in your party who has an easier time carrying stuff? Things like the cable spool, grappling hook, silk rope, and pitons are useful to have in the party but you don't necessarily need several of them - if he can carry some of it you'd be in a much better place as far as the haversack goes.

[SciChronic]

the quarter staff was a pickup if there's a situation where what i'm fighting A) is preventing my ranged attacks from hitting or doing damage such form a wall of wind, or B) eats/rusts metal.

My group only has 2 people experienced with D&D, myself, and the DM. The remainder for the group is rather new, so I'm really the only one with the foresight and knowledge to grab everything i did. Also I'm personally of the opinion that i shouldn't say what item each person should grab, as IC we're just meeting, thus there should be some overlap. And My character is a thief, who personally makes sure she's ready for any situation she can think of.

[SciChronic]

The remainder of my inventory includes:

Fancy hat (hat of disguise +2int)
-I'm considering dropping the hat of disguise bit since i have shiftweave, glamered armor, and my chaaracter has something similar to a changelings minor shape change.
Traveler's Cloak
+1 Glamered Mithril Chain Shirt
Shiftweave
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Ring of Arming
-might change this if i can find something cheaper
Healing belt
-yeah i have 2
Silent Shoes
Quickloading Light Crossbow
-i'd like to enhance it more, but money is expensive

[Kudaku]

the quarter staff was a pickup if there's a situation where what i'm fighting A) is preventing my ranged attacks from hitting or doing damage such form a wall of wind, or B) eats/rusts metal.

My group only has 2 people experienced with D&D, myself, and the DM. The remainder for the group is rather new, so I'm really the only one with the foresight and knowledge to grab everything i did. Also I'm personally of the opinion that i shouldn't say what item each person should grab, as IC we're just meeting, thus there should be some overlap. And My character is a thief, who personally makes sure she's ready for any situation she can think of.

Fair enough, replace it with a club then :smallsmile:

I don't have the weight stats available on the items you listed and my 3.5 books have long since been banished to the attic, so I can't really look up the majority of the items you posted. I'm reasonably sure you can still shave a few pounds here and there though.

[Harlot]

Wouldn't a magic item increasing strenght also increase carrying capacity?
Like gauntlets of ogre power (4000 gp.)+2 str. = 10 gb extra carriying capacity
= 100 crossbow bolts.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Wouldn't a magic item increasing strenght also increase carrying capacity?
Like gauntlets of ogre power (4000 gp.)+2 str. = 10 gb extra carriying capacity
= 100 crossbow bolts.

Its from pathfinder but there was this fun magic item for a couple thousand gold that increased your effective carrying capacity as if your strength was eight points higher. It didn't help any other aspect of strength but it effectively tripled your carrying capacity.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can replace your Ring of Arming with a Glove of the Master Strategist from Ghostwalk to save 1400gp. Replacing Glamered with Called (MIC) saves another 700gp while still enabling constant access to your armor. For carrying capacity either buy a pack animal, invest in a strength item or convince your party to pool ressources for a Portable Hole (SRD).
There is also the Easy Travel (MIC, 1500gp) armor enhancement that lets you treat a medium load as a light load.

If you can scrounge up the 11000gp a Belt of Many Pockets (CArc) provides plenty of space for additional bolts at no additional weight.

Unless you find yourself in long range engagements on a regular basis you could also think about ditching the crossbow and getting Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC, 7000gp).

[Diarmuid]

I seem to recall reading about a quiver that would give you endless copies of an arrow that was kept in the quiver.

I read the link for the Anariel Quiver and that doesnt seem like what I remember. I'm not sure if it's the other one that was mentioned but I couldnt find a link for that item's description that work's firewall would allow.

Am I misremembering, or was something like that a real thing? You had to actually have an example of the arrow to be duplicated and if it was ever removed from the quiver you couldnt make any more unless you got another or put it back...or something like that.

[Kudaku]

Its from pathfinder but there was this fun magic item for a couple thousand gold that increased your effective carrying capacity as if your strength was eight points higher. It didn't help any other aspect of strength but it effectively tripled your carrying capacity.

That would be the Muleback cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleback-cords). Another option is the Heavyload belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-heavyload). Unfortunately both are PF-specific :smallfrown:

[SciChronic]

You can replace your Ring of Arming with a Glove of the Master Strategist from Ghostwalk to save 1400gp. Replacing Glamered with Called (MIC) saves another 700gp while still enabling constant access to your armor. For carrying capacity either buy a pack animal, invest in a strength item or convince your party to pool ressources for a Portable Hole (SRD).
There is also the Easy Travel (MIC, 1500gp) armor enhancement that lets you treat a medium load as a light load.

If you can scrounge up the 11000gp a Belt of Many Pockets (CArc) provides plenty of space for additional bolts at no additional weight.

Unless you find yourself in long range engagements on a regular basis you could also think about ditching the crossbow and getting Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC, 7000gp).

both glove options are an issue because my character has gloves of dexterity +2. With called armor, i don't quite feel safe just leaving my armor somewhere, as placing it within the haversack put it in the ethereal plane, thus making calling it do nothing.

the glamered armor and ring of arming were more for being able to move around in disguise less risky if i was caught. that said, i was told that by paying 75% of the cost for shiftweave i could get glamered armor that could look like different sets of clothing, but i don't know if that truly follows the item creation rules, or if it was rules legal to do so.

belt of many pockets is outside of my WBL range.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can add the +2 Dex bonus to any pair of gloves at no additional cost as per MIC rules.

As for the Armor, it ultimately comes down to the playstyle of your group.
If you feel that you you need the ability often enough and that leaving your armor at an inn and calling it when needed is not feasible it may be worth the investment.
OTOH, depending on the campaign that's a good bit of money spent on something that might only come up once or twice.

Even called is only really worth it for heavy armor users imo unless getting ambushed without your armor on is something that happens a lot.

[Allanimal]

the cheapest method would be to hire a henchman or buy a riding dog/mule/etc to haul your stuff.

[Gildedragon]

Glammered armour is unnecesary if you have the ring of arming.

My advice on 75% cost on top of glammered follows magic item creation guidelines as per the srd . But if you can armour up at the drop of a hat...

If you need to hide it: invisibility+permanency
You'll need to provide 1k of xp, and an xpless scroll ought to be ~1125gp

[SciChronic]

i'd rather avoid spending xp, as i'm already a +2 LA race in a ELC9 starting campaign.

doesnt armor that looks like a variety of disguise seem so much more interesting though? the perfect armor for spies. you can seemlessly shift your armor to match those of your surroundings.

side question, if i've bought off 1 of my LA should i consider my WBL as 8 or 9?

[Gildedragon]

WBL is calculated by ECL.
Homebrew race, right? What do you get out of it?

[SciChronic]

Racial Traits
• -2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. Alu-fiends are exceptionally cunning, attractive and can easily feign being charismatic. However, alu-fiends are physically weaker than the other races.
• Medium size
• Alu-fiend base land speed is 30 feet
• Cold, fire, and electricity resistance 5
• Charm Person (Sp): Alu-fiends can use charm person once per day as a sorcerer of their character level. The save is charisma-based.
• Alter Shape (Su): Alufiends have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though under an alter self spell at will, but with the following changes:

o You can only assume the form of medium humanoids.
o There is no limit to the duration, and can be dispelled at will.
• +2 racial bonus on diplomacy checks vs. the opposite sex.
• +2 racial bonus on bluff, hide, move silently, and sense motive checks.
• Darkvision up to 60 ft.
• Outsider: Alu-fiends are native outsiders.
• Racial Feats: Fiendish Bloodline, Improved Energy Resistance, Outsider Wings, Planetouched Animal Affinity.
• Languages: Common and Abyssal, Bonus Languages: Any (except secret languages such as Druidic)
• Level Adjustment: +2

though i'm still working on the race (like favored class). Homebrew forum says its pretty balanced though :smallbiggrin:

the +1 LA Lesser Alu-fiend loses alter shape, and outsider(native) type.

about WBL, i should be ECL9 but i paid the xp for the first LA buyoff making myself ECL8, so which do i go by?

[Gildedragon]

You got rid of first la at class level 6 ecl7-6 by do guidelines you've caught up, class level 8 ECL 9. Next level you buy off your last la, and catch up around 12

[SciChronic]

UA stats you need to reach Class Levels to buyoff, not ECL. So i was ECL8 when i bought off the first LA going to ECL7 paying 7k xp ([current ECL-1]*1000) so i shoudl be ECL8 with 7 class levels and 1000 xp toward my next level. I need to reach ECL10 before i can buyoff again. (paying 9000xp to do so)

[Gildedragon]

Okay so you have 2 main issues: discretion and weight
For discretion my recommendation was the ring, but...
Your group has no issue with homebrew, as such PF materials ought be reasonable. Muleback cords are great for weight issues.
Discretionwise a hat of disguise-like item that affects only gear ought suffice, or a folding plate (PF material) which turns your armor into an amulet and back, adjusted to be light or medium

[SciChronic]

My issue with hat of disguise is that the tactile feel remains the same, so if i wanted it to look like flowy clothing and pose as a courtesan, the moment i loop my arm through someone elses, my cover is blown. shiftweave and glamered armor change the tactile feel though.

Edit:
oh and another caveat for alter shape: your movement speed matches your normal movement speed for each mode of movement, if It is a 0, then you cannot travel using that mode of movement.

this is to prevent just morphing into something like winged elves and flying around.

that said, i would like to find better wording... and my only real issue is with flying and burrowing,

[XionUnborn01]

You could just simply put that you gain no additional movement types regardless of the form taken, and that existing movement types have no increase of decrease in speed if the assumed form has a different speed than yours.