[PF] Request critique of class changes

[JimboG]

So I’m attempting to make a campaign that gets spells and spellcasting characters under control and more equal to the abilities the 3rd and 4th tier classes are capable of, while still staying faithful to the classes themes. (For those who are interested, the campaign is nautical based with a heavy ship battle component and the need to acquire and maintain a sizable crew.)

To do this, I have decided on some modifications to some of the classes, and I wanted to ask your opinion of whether these don’t overly cripple the classes, and if you had any better alternatives. I have not yet tackled the other Base classes because our group honestly doesn’t use them much. With that said, here are my changes:

Cleric: The Cleric no longer has access to his Cleric spells. Instead, a Cleric may choose a deity and receive all four of their domains and their powers. A Cleric’s spells per day are still the same as their spell chart (minus the extra domain spell), but they may only cast spells from their chosen domains, and may cast them spontaneously without the need to prepare them individually. A Cleric may still trade their spell slots for the equal or lesser Healing spells.

Druid: Exactly the same as Cleric, except as noted: when a Druid chooses her Natures Bond, she may choose to have two of the Druid Domains and an animal companion, OR she may choose to have four domains. A Druid may still trade their spell slots for the equal or lesser Summon Nature’s Ally spells.

Bard: Undecided. I’m not sure how to handle the Bard’s spellcasting yet, as I’ve never actually played with a Bard in any campaign and thus don’t have any experience with their abilities. Suggestions are appreciated.

Paladin: Must use the “Warrior of the Holy Light” archetype, which removes spellcasting ability and grants an extended list of additional abilities.

Ranger: Must use the “Skirmisher” or “Trapper” archetypes, which removes spellcasting ability and grants an extended list of additional abilities.

Sorcerer: The Sorcerer must only cast spells from her Bloodline list after they are granted. (Note: I’m pretty sure this is too hard of a change for them and leaves them fairly helpless, so suggestions are appreciated in order to extend the Sorcerer’s abilities while sticking to the trend.)

Wizard: I have absolutely no idea what to do with Wizards, and am considering banning them altogether and tweaking the Adept class to replace them in order to fill in the “learned academic” trope in the world.

Barbarian: Unchanged.

Fighter: Unchanged.

Monk: Unchanged (might be granted Full BAB to make up for the decreased magical options).

Rogue: Unchanged.

[grarrrg]

Cleric: The Cleric no longer has access to his Cleric spells. Instead, a Cleric may choose a deity and receive all four of their domains and their powers.

Major Deities have 5 domains. Lesser ones have 4.

Paladin/Ranger are not really in need of being 'nerfed' spell-wise since you are shooting towards Tier 3 or 4.

Bard may need a slight nerf, but nothing major.

Sorcerers can maybe pick 3 or 4 Bloodlines? But must choose their "2 new Spells Known" each level from amongst them?

Wizards must "ban" at least 6 schools of magic. And/Or reduce their Spells/day.

You don't have any of the other base classes listed, like Witch or Summoner

[JusticeZero]

Honestly, if I was in your place, i'd just ban the T1's outright, possibly also the t2's, and crack open the other PF classes available for more casters to substitute in. It's difficult to tone down the T1's with a quick and dirty fix, since a good optimizer can still do absurd stuff with the nerfed version and a new player will be absolutely clobbered by the changes. It's not like there aren't alternatives to play with.

[JimboG]

Major Deities have 5 domains. Lesser ones have 4.

Paladin/Ranger are not really in need of being 'nerfed' spell-wise since you are shooting towards Tier 3 or 4.

Bard may need a slight nerf, but nothing major.

Sorcerers can maybe pick 3 or 4 Bloodlines? But must choose their "2 new Spells Known" each level from amongst them?

Wizards must "ban" at least 6 schools of magic. And/Or reduce their Spells/day.

You don't have any of the other base classes listed, like Witch or Summoner

You're correct, thanks for pointing that out. I think I'll just cap it at 4 domains regardless, and if they choose no domains, then they just chose 4 they prefer.

For Paladin, you may be right, and I'll consider it, but I wanted to try and keep classes separated between mundane and spellcaster as much as possible and create a bigger gap with the hybrids.

For Bard, any nerf suggestions in mind? Maybe lower their BAB to worst and let them keep the spells?

For Sorcs, I like that Idea! Might make that one the official change after I ponder it for a bit.

For Wizard, the banned school might just work, I hadn't thought of something as simple as that.

The Base classes I haven't addressed because our group just doesn't use them very often, and if they do it'll have to be subject to my approval.

[JimboG]

Honestly, if I was in your place, i'd just ban the T1's outright, possibly also the t2's, and crack open the other PF classes available for more casters to substitute in. It's difficult to tone down the T1's with a quick and dirty fix, since a good optimizer can still do absurd stuff with the nerfed version and a new player will be absolutely clobbered by the changes. It's not like there aren't alternatives to play with.

I agree, and that option is still certainly on the drawing board, but my players are usually kind-hearted enough to not make too much cheese when I ask them, so I wanted to at least try to keep the classes available (albeit highly modified) as long as they minded their Ps and Qs.

[gr8artist]

Just wanted to drop in and provide my two cents, as I will be one of the players in the campaign. I know we talked about it the other night, but I thought I should post my ideas here as well, for critique and review by the GitP veterans.
Regarding the wizard, banning 6 schools slows him down, but doesn't keep him from taking Trans/Conj and still dominating every fight. Or Ench/Evoc and ending every fight in one round solo.
I think nerfing arcane casting time would be a viable solution. After all, the best depictions of magic are when the wizard is charging his spell, standing in the back of the room protected by the paladin, before unleashing a hellstorm on his unsuspecting little adversaries. Make spellcasting a full-round action that takes a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell. Fireball? sure, but you need to survive three rounds of combat first, with concentration checks if you get injured. This lets wizards and sorcerors still serve as the heavy hitters or primary leadership role, while allowing everyone else a chance to shine.
Also, limiting the spells available to us (scrolls and spellbooks, etc.) is a great way to limit the wizard in spell power. Take away his two free spells every level, and make him copy scrolls to grow in power. Limiting the spells available for purchase is an effortless restriction, as most tows would carry the same stuff. (mage armor, shield, etc.) Anything rare would require time and effort to achieve, which makes sense.
Maybe take away half the bard's spells, but double his bardic music bonuses? More singing, less casting?
There's another ranger archetype that gets tricks instead of spells, I believe.
Druid with 4 domains still pretty high-tier. His animal companion alone can get scary, and 4 sets of domain powers to use in wildshape throws a giant wrench into balance.
Sorcerors with extra BL's can get OP/optimized quick, as there are several that increase damage per die at 1st level. Orc/Draconic/Primal elemental would start with a 1d4+3 burning hands. And have claws, ranged touches, and other powers. And letting them pull from 4 BL's will still let them get most of their spells known. What would you do when they get up to 5 and 6 spells known at a level, but only have 4 BL's?
No summoners. Just... no.
Oracles with a smaller spells known list would work well. Same thing as the sorceror, really
Witch... I don't know, more patrons, less spells in her familiar? Or give her an animal companion instead. Maybe 1 domain, 1 patron, 1 bloodline, and 1 specialty school? That could be fun.
Alchemist, use the same fix as the wizard, but let him get more bombs or discoveries, more powerful mutagen, etc.
And no one loves the inquisitor.

[Psyren]

Honestly, if I was in your place, i'd just ban the T1's outright, possibly also the t2's, and crack open the other PF classes available for more casters to substitute in. It's difficult to tone down the T1's with a quick and dirty fix, since a good optimizer can still do absurd stuff with the nerfed version and a new player will be absolutely clobbered by the changes. It's not like there aren't alternatives to play with.

Seconding this. Inquisitor instead of Cleric, a more casty Ranger archetype instead of Druid, Staff+Hex Magus instead of Wizard/Witch, Magician Bard instead of Sorcerer etc. That should rein in the casters significantly.