[PF] The Low DEX Archer

[Zubrowka74]

Inspired by some posts here I was working into combining the WIS to AC of the monk and WIS to Init of the Inquisitor. The end result would have been DAD for WIS and DEX. But since it seems that both 3.5 and PF gives more candy to the CHA based classes I tried to swixh everything DEX based to either WIS or CHA.

I'm usually reluctant to overuse dipping as I value fluff over crunch BUT for this exercise I thought it would be fun to go against the Pathfinder philosophy of single-classing. This went out of control, to say the least.

For the purpose of this post I went level 11, in theory this would extend the rogue levels up to the 20th (so Rogue 11) but I'm more than open for suggestion. I'm big on fluff but I tried to make the build playable from level 1.

What did I forget / messed up ?

The Low DEX Archer

LG Aasimar devoted to Erastil
Pal 2 / Ora 1 / Monk 3 / Cleric 1 / Inq 2 / Rogue X

Abilities (20 point buy)

STR 12
DEX 8
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 19 (+2 Race, +2 level)
CHA 18 (+2 Race)

Of course any higher point buys would go in WIS + CHA

Classes, Archetypes & Notable special abilities

01 Paladin (Divine Hunter) : Smite Evil
02 Oracle (Lore Mystery) : Sidestep secret ( CHA replaces DEX for AC and Ref save)
03 Paladin : Divine Grace CHA to saves, Lay on hands
04 Monk (Zen Archer) : WIS to AC & CMD, Flurry of Blows
05 Monk
06 Monk : WIS to hit w/ bows, Fast Movement +10'
07 Cleric (separatist) : Feather Domain, Rune Domain, Hunting Variant Channelling
08 Inquisitor (Heretic) : Feather Domain, +WIS to Bluff & Stealth
09 Inquisitor : +WIS to INIT, +Lvl to Track
10 Rogue (Sniper, Sanctified Rogue) : Accuracy, Sneak Attack
11 Rogue : Evasion, Sniper's eye

Feats / Traits

Traits : Killer, Adopted (Elven: Warrior of Old)

01 Noble Scion of War (CHA for INIT)
02
03 Toughness
04 (Bonus : Improved Unarmed Stike, Point Blank Shot)
05 Improved Initiative (Bonus : Weapon Focus [Longbow], Precise Shot)
06 (Bonus : Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master [Longbow])
07 Channel Smite (Bonus : Scribe Scroll)
08
09 Guided Hand (WIS to Hit [Longbow])
10
11 Skill Focus [Stealth]

Saves

+16 Fort
+14 Ref
+21 Will

Skills

Focus will be around Stealth, Bluff and Perception but with that many class skills and bonus it could turn into a partial skillmonkey with at least one level in many skills. I still have to work this out.


Spells

While this build is not for casting, it will nonetheless allow twelve at will 0-level spells and nine 1st level spells, all divine.

Notes

This does not include any gear
+CHA +WIS to AC w/out armor
+CHA +WIS to Init, +14 with feats & traits, +16 on surprise round
+WISx2 to bows brings it to full BAB, +11/+6 at level 11
Divine Hunter with only two levels of Paladin doesnt change anything but flavor
Furter levels would be rogue with a focus on crit fishing

[avr]

Continuing with the rogue base class past character level 10 feels like you've run out of good abilities however, you'd be getting 2nd level rogue abilities at level 11, etc.

How about a prestige class, something like hellknight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight) instead? You get another smite at level one and another domain's abilities at level 3. I don't know your character's fluff or how well it might mesh or not.

Edit: or horizon walker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/horizon-walker). The point is, PrC's are more likely to scale well to your level than a base class you're staring 9 levels behind.

[Zubrowka74]

You are right, although in this case I don't really care about being a Rogue per se. All I want is to increase sneak and crit fishing. These are somewhat behind, yes, but my archery is at full BAB without any magic. That's what matters, not the rogue abilities. Though I could benefit from a PrC that boosts SA, Assassin is out because of alignment. Horizon Walker is not really in line with the abilities I have. Hellknight had full BAB on it's own and d10s, which would be great if it wasn't Paladin-centric. My build doesn't wear armor from the first Monk level. Perhaps there's a PrC out there that I could use. I'll look into that.

[HugeC]

Guided Hand: "Benefit: With your deity’s favored weapon, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier on attack rolls."

Zen Archer: "At 3rd level, a zen archer may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier on ranged attack rolls when using a bow."

Both of these are the same thing; you replace your Dexterity modifier with your Wisdom modifier. You wouldn't get your Wisdom modifier twice.

Contrast with e.g. Dragon Ferocity: "While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus." In this case, it is clear the the feat provides an additional bonus above and beyond the norm.

[Zubrowka74]

D'oh! Nice catch. The X to Y table didn't specify it replaced DEX for Guided Hand where it does so for other entries. I assumed that it added.

This means I still get to full BAB (equivalent) with WIS to hit once - as I built this using Hero Lab and I being lazy I took the math directly from the software output. Soooo, no need for channelling anymore and I get two feats back, Channel Smite and Guided Hand. I can drop the Cleric dip and I can almost drop Monk 3 now.

Now, if only there was a more general way than Smite to add CHA to hit.

On the PrC side I could go Shadowdancer 1 for HiPS. Other options are Gray Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-gardener) (too much hoops to jumps for only +2d6 SA) and... Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar). Again, only two dies of SA but with full BAB and d10s to HP.

[HylianKnight]

1) I can't even tell you how much I love this build. A seemingly random collection of classes that result in an amazingly unique and awesome build, and the fluff potential has really gotten my head whirling. So thanks, I'm definitely going to shamelessly crib from some of these symmetries so thanks for that.

2) Off the top of my head I wouldn't recommend Rogue from here on out. After level 11, you just can't increase your SA fast enough to keep up with the damage output. Having 4d6 just isn't making an impact at 17th level. And Archery is notoriously horrible for sneak attacking in PF thanks to some of the rule changes without consistant access to greater invisibility. HiPS is a bandaid work around, but unfortunately it's so dependent on you being in an area of dim light.

My off the top of my head suggestion would be to look into going through the full Shadow Dancer progression. The key class abilities are Charisma based which looks great for you. I guess the biggest thing is that it allows you to continue your Rogue-ish style in a very cool way, and gives you access to a Str-draining Shadow companion at 3rd level, the ability to use many mid-level Arcane spells thanks to Shadow Conjuration and Evocation with Charisma based DCs.

I'm not sure this is the best option, but it seems like it has potential.

[HylianKnight]

Also, don't forget that you get Precise Shot as a bonus feat at level 1 thanks to Divine Hunter (replacing Heavy Armor Proficiency).

[Zubrowka74]

If I go the Shadowdancer route, will I dare name it "The HiPSter" ?

I could limit myself to Rogue 3 and see if there's any perks to advance the other classes.

[Raven777]

If I go the Shadowdancer route, will I dare name it "The HiPSter" ?

You totally will dare.

[Zubrowka74]

So it shall be written, so it shall be done!

[HylianKnight]

If I go the Shadowdancer route, will I dare name it "The HiPSter" ?

Haha. Brilliant!

Obviously it's your build, but why is Rogue 3 the cut-off? Is there something special about getting another 1d6 to SA and being able to do it form 40ft away instead of 30? But yeah, poke around to see what interests you in the other classes.

One question on the build though, is why Cleric? All you get from it is the weakened Blast Rune, and level 1 hunting channeling (so give up your attack this turn for +1 on your attack next turn). The others 4 (Pally, Oracle, Monk, Inquisitor) all follow the theme of adding your Wis or Chr mod to something, but that doesn't.

Another alternative is to replace that with a level in Sorcerer (Charisma-based arcane class) so as to open up to you the only Archery-focused Prestige Class with Arcane Archer.

[Phippster]

If I go the Shadowdancer route, will I dare name it "The HiPSter" ?

Using dexterity for archery is just too mainstream. I prefer to really let my inner wisdom guide me

[Larsen]

Why not go monk 4 then Ninja ? You can then use your ki pool.

[Zubrowka74]

I was reluctant to place the cleric dip but it was the best way to get channelling without adding Pal levels. All this was to qualify for "Guided Hand" but since I misread the feat it's not required anymore. Out is the cleric dip, out the Channel Smite also.

It's also ironic that I dislike dips and that Pathfinder punishes you for multiclassing too much. Also, hipsters usually pick bits and parts from a lot of different styles and eras.

Anyhow, I'm remaking the build and so far I'm getting Pal 3 / Ora 1 / Monk 3, I'm thinking about Mnk 4 and I'll look into ninja. Invisibility sure is cool. And obscure, kind of. I'll post the results in a new thread.

[Zubrowka74]

Mmmh, I forgot that the ninja's Ki pool was keyed to CHA.

Might go for Pal 2 / Ora 1 / Mnk 3 / Inq 2 / Nin 5 / Shadowdancer 7 or something similar. The Ninja Master Trick "Invisible Blade" is tempting but 10 levels of ninja is quite a lot. And having this online at the 19th or 20th is kind of pointless.

Also, the monk's Ki pool is kind of a waste as it's separate from the Ninja's. Is there some kind of feat that combines them ?

[grarrrg]

Mmmh, I forgot that the ninja's Ki pool was keyed to CHA.

Also, the monk's Ki pool is kind of a waste as it's separate from the Ninja's. Is there some kind of feat that combines them ?

Reread the Ninja entry on Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja)'s:

If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.

TA-DA! All of your problems solved.

Well, your Monk still needs to reach a point that it actually GETS a Ki Pool, which is typically 4th level. But other than that, go crazy.

[ericgrau]

Fluff: Clumsy archer that somehow hits his target purely from his heightened sense of zen awareness. Likewise says a witty comment as he ducks blows in a drunken fashion. And when you pass a save, Fonzie double thumbs up and say "Ehhhhhhhhh, thank you <deity name>". Nobody knows how he succeeds at anything, but mystically he does.

Could be a load of fun to roleplay.

[Zubrowka74]

I'm running into problems with Shadowdancer. The feat tax includes two DEX dependent items : Dodge, which I get easily at Mnk 1 w/bonus feat, and the always useless Mobility (with all the other feats I get I don't generate AoOs). Monk 6 adds more options to the bonus list, one of them being Mobility, another being the tasty Improved Precise Shot. The next bonus feat being at Monk 10, I find this very painful.

I have to find a way to eat my cake and have it at the same time. Getting Mobility and IPS. And still have a playable progression.

[HylianKnight]

Damn, stupid egregious feat taxes. Yeah, short of doing 2 Pal/1 Ora/6 Monk/2 Inq/9 Shadowdancer I'm not sure how to get around that.

Alternatively you can rejigger your physical stat breakdown to give yourself 13 Dex at the cost of Strength.

Putting aside that dilema, if there was ever a reason to make an older character, this would be it (+1 to all mental stats, -1 to all physical at middle age. +2, -3 at Old. +3, -6 at Ancient).

[Zubrowka74]

Nah, all the build's flavoris having a DEX penalty. I have to stick to the principle otherwise why would I bother doing sub-optimal build.

The thing is that multiclassing in PF takes the punch out of the character. Right now I have Pal 2 / Ora 1 / Mnk 6 / Inq 2 / SD 2 at level 13 which is not too bad. SD 9 as you proposed lacks something, mainly sneak attacks. The next 7 levels would be split between Monk, SD and either Rogue or Ninja. Monk 10 would have Improved Precise Shot come on line at level 17, or 15 if I postpone the SD levels. Not too glorious, heh ?

But I'll find a way, I'll make it work.

[ericgrau]

Swarm Fighter 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Kobolds of Golarion) gets mobility without the prerequisites. It's a fighter ACF only for kobolds.

There's also Wave Warden 2 (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Race Guide). It's a ranger ACF for merfolk.

Lion Blade 3 (Pathfinder Companion: Taldor, Echoes of Glory) gets HiPS. You can get in the PrC at 6th level with 3 feats and some skills.

That's all I could find with a couple searches

[HylianKnight]

Yeah, definitely wasn't proposing that as the ideal.

If you really want Sneak Attack dice, then I'd definitely say just pick rogue or ninja and go for it. It's obviously not going to be the best crunch (i.e. 4d6 sneak attack is suppose to be good for 7th level characters, not 15th) but if that's the fluff you're after, take it!

Having 4 classes at level 8 means that the only way to keep up with the crunch is to pick a class designed to be entered into at that time (a.k.a. prestige classes) as any class you advance is going to be lackluster if you're getting abilities aimed at 4th level characters at level 10. Unfortunately the only available Prestige Class that has SA is Master Spy, so you could always look at that. After that is Horizon Walker (seriously, those permanent bonuses, like +4 to Stealth, seem like they have potential).

A lame idea fluff wise, but potential in terms of pure advancement, is just pick up an Archer Fighter. Go crazy with feats because those never stop being useful, and get some cool Archery bonuses along the way.

Full disclosure: I don't know any Pathfinder prestige classes outside of Core and APG.

[Zubrowka74]

Yeah, that's the problem with multiclassing in PF. I could go SD all the way but what's the use having HiPS if you don't sneak ?

Darn, Lion Blade would have been perfect : sneak and HiPS in the same package! Some of the feat taxes are pretty bleak though (Skill focus: Perform...) and you have to be neutral.

Other possible PrCs :

Gray Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-gardener) - I'd have to advance Inquisitor to get 2nd level divine spells.
Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar) - Would fit with the Pally levels, somehow