Using the Behir

[hymer]

I'm finding this good ole monster a little, well, boring. I've used it once in a campaign, in which it had made its lair beneath a ruined temple to the goddess of peace. This added an outside interest, which it seemed to me was sorely needed to make the encounter more than perception-initiative-kill-kill-loot.

How have you guys used behirs? Any tricks I might borrow, since I'd like to use this monster more.

[Aran Thule]

Well the Behir but not really smart but would know and use its abilities and surroundings well.
It's clever enough to spot the difference between a bunch of villagers and a well equipped adventuring party.
If facing a foe that it thinks are dangerous, you could try for more hit and run tactics.
Try to grapple one and run off with it, have it drink potions before a fight.

Or have a kobold clan worship it and rig a cavern and tunnel complex with traps which it can avoid by climbing on ceilings.

Or a mix of the two. :smallsmile:

Do hit and runs which if they follow they end up in a worse situation.
For example:
Behir trys to grab or just lightning bolts the party then flees up a steep tunnel, at the top it passes and releases a large boulder that fits the tunnel and threatens to squash anyone following.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's a fiendish one in arguably the most famous printed module - The Red Hand of Doom. And man , that thing can be lethal.

[hymer]

@ Aran Thule: Behir don't seem particularly suited to hit and run tactics. They do have a climb speed, but they're really not too mobile compared to a party with third level spells (or even fourth). Or is that just me?
Thanks regardless.

@ Kuulvheysoon: Unfortunately I don't have access to that (I think). Could you hint at what that behir does to be a challenge?

[Tar Palantir]

@ Kuulvheysoon: Unfortunately I don't have access to that (I think). Could you hint at what that behir does to be a challenge?

It's a grapple monster and its rake attack is disgusting. It has the half dragon template, so it's stats get some bumps and it has wings, but its strategy is mostly bite and grapple poor SOB ->half a dozen claw attacks -> drop the corpse and repeat.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's a grapple monster and its rake attack is disgusting. It has the half dragon template, so it's stats get some bumps and it has wings, but its strategy is mostly bite and grapple poor SOB ->half a dozen claw attacks -> drop the corpse and repeat.

What he said. That thing is disgusting. Both times that I've run RHoD, I've lost a PC to her (?). The first time was a half-orc ranger, the second; a human warblade.

[Tar Palantir]

What he said. That thing is disgusting. Both times that I've run RHoD, I've lost a PC to her (?). The first time was a half-orc ranger, the second; a human warblade.

The only reason my party survived her was that she got greedy and swallowed on party member to try and rake another and get some pressure off of herself. The swallowed party member was still bleeding out by the end of the fight, but if she'd gone for the kill on him first there's not much they could have done to stop her.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Alternatively, you could go the other route. Instead of being a simple "Go and kill it" quest, the party could be hired by clergy of this goddess to see if they can work out a deal with it, to protect this temple while it is being rebuilt and beyond, in exchange, it would get food and a place to live.

Since Behir's are usually neutral rather than evil, it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that it would think about accepting such an arrangement. Remember, while it's not the brightest of the bunch, it's far from stupid so it can certainly see the value in this deal.

[Vaz]

I believe they have a particular problem with Dragons. The story-line could perhaps be another dragon (Brass Dragon or a Blue Dragon, in a humanoid form or otherwise) giving hints to remove the threat of a rival dragon nearby; you could attempt to harness the Behir as an attack dog to help your party take down the more powerful Dragon, and hopefully aid the Quest Giver dragon's cause by removing both potential threats.

I said Blue and/or Brass Dragons, as Behir's have similarities between the former, and all three don't have any love lost between them, but it could fit any setting or dragon pair etc.

[hymer]

@ Tar Palantir & Kuulvheysoon: Thanks for the info!

@ Sgt. Cookie: It's a good idea. Even if a given behir is evil, there is no guarantee thngs will turn violent.

@ Vaz: Good points!

That brings something up: Since behir speak common and have an int score of 7, how do you think they speak? What do you imagine their voices sound like?

[Gildedragon]

Serpentine, slithering bass that crackles and spurts with energy.

[ShriekingDrake]

That brings something up: Since behir speak common and have an int score of 7, how do you think they speak? What do you imagine their voices sound like?

Wallace Shawn

[Saintheart]

What he said. That thing is disgusting. Both times that I've run RHoD, I've lost a PC to her (?). The first time was a half-orc ranger, the second; a human warblade.

Experiences are a bit variable on it, I think...on one hand, when parties hit it in RHOD they're usually level 8-9 or so and thus haven't generally optimised towards an ubergrappler build sufficient to beat its roughly +30 check or so (IIRC, AFB). Most of the time when it hits with its melee attack it'll get a grapple going. Its primary damage-dealing mechanic seems to be designed as: Hit, Grapple, Swallow Whole, Cleave to hit and grapple again.

This is a pretty solid mechanic, with the only balance/weakness at these levels being that it takes more than one round to get through that attack sequence: the monster can't Swallow and Grapple the same opponent in the same round, and while grappling it threatens no squares and therefore can't take AoOs. That means that the party's got a round to wail in with its primary melee types and its sneak attackers to take a few good shots.

Like all big solo monsters, it suffers from being outgunned on the action economy and from poor-ish Will saves. One Slow spell and it's not killing anybody.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Experiences are a bit variable on it, I think...on one hand, when parties hit it in RHOD they're usually level 8-9 or so and thus haven't generally optimised towards an ubergrappler build sufficient to beat its roughly +30 check or so (IIRC, AFB). Most of the time when it hits with its melee attack it'll get a grapple going. Its primary damage-dealing mechanic seems to be designed as: Hit, Grapple, Swallow Whole, Cleave to hit and grapple again.

This is a pretty solid mechanic, with the only balance/weakness at these levels being that it takes more than one round to get through that attack sequence: the monster can't Swallow and Grapple the same opponent in the same round, and while grappling it threatens no squares and therefore can't take AoOs. That means that the party's got a round to wail in with its primary melee types and its sneak attackers to take a few good shots.

Like all big solo monsters, it suffers from being outgunned on the action economy and from poor-ish Will saves. One Slow spell and it's not killing anybody.

Well, it helps that most of my players weren't too experienced while playing - they'd been through a couple campaigns, but were still getting the hang of it. I mean, the ranger had Toughness, of all things.

And it wasn't the swallow whole - it was the Constrict/Rake that was deadly. I flipped a coin to figure out which to use (Swallow or Constrict), and Rangers don't shrug off 2d8+x + 6d6+y all that easily. As for the Warblade... his party underestimated the threat level that she posed. they figured that the Warblade could keep it still and grappling long enough so that they could take it out without using spell slots.

[Fable Wright]

I haven't used one in a game, per se, but I have designed a campaign where they're used with Gorgons, Remorhaz, and Aboleths as the 4 races that created the world, with advanced Behir getting a full suite of SLAs based on weather manipulation similar to the Aboleths' illusion SLAs. The goal would be to try and keep them (along with the Gorgons and Remorhaz) alive to stave off the end of the world, despite the fact that the vast majority are basically predators, and the rest of them, while powerful allies, have pretty much no influence on the masses due to their isolated lifestyles. It's probably not a trick that can be imported into another campaign, but it's something.

[hymer]

it's something.

It certainly is! Thanks for replying.

[Psyren]

You could add a lightning trap to the temple - it won't hurt the Behir and will make things a little harder for the PCs, as they have to shut down the trap while fending off the beast. The trap's also a good reason for the Behir to have come along in the first place - it could have been steadily zapping the local fauna that have wandered in and the Behir would show up for easy meals.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only reason my party survived her was that she got greedy and swallowed on party member to try and rake another and get some pressure off of herself. The swallowed party member was still bleeding out by the end of the fight, but if she'd gone for the kill on him first there's not much they could have done to stop her.


What he said. That thing is disgusting. Both times that I've run RHoD, I've lost a PC to her (?). The first time was a half-orc ranger, the second; a human warblade.


It's a grapple monster and its rake attack is disgusting. It has the half dragon template, so it's stats get some bumps and it has wings, but its strategy is mostly bite and grapple poor SOB ->half a dozen claw attacks -> drop the corpse and repeat.

Just out of curiosity, did you all or your DM's remember that a creature can't rake on the same turn it initiates the grapple?

[Saph]

Just out of curiosity, did you all or your DM's remember that a creature can't rake on the same turn it initiates the grapple?

It can use its Cleave feat to bite and grapple on the same round that it swallows a target, though. Special behir ability.

When I ran RHoD, the sequence of events was:

Round 1: Behir charges, bites and grapples PC 1
Round 2: Behir swallows PC 1, bites and grapples PC 2
Round 3: Behir swallows PC 2, bites and grapples PC 3
Round 4: Behir doesn't have room in its stomach to swallow PC 3 so rakes them to death instead, and gets killed by the remaining PCs on their turn.

I can't remember whether it was 2 or 3 PC deaths, but I think it was 3. Quite scary.

[Tvtyrant]

Use it with some companions so it has time to grapple people without being focused-fired to death. I think it would be amazing with a pair of Bulletes as a hard CR 9-10 encounter.

[inuyasha]

you could do what i usually do with shocker lizards, but i guess behir would work, put a behir with a shambling mound ;) awesome fun

[Kelb_Panthera]

It can use its Cleave feat to bite and grapple on the same round that it swallows a target, though. Special behir ability.

When I ran RHoD, the sequence of events was:

Round 1: Behir charges, bites and grapples PC 1
Round 2: Behir swallows PC 1, bites and grapples PC 2
Round 3: Behir swallows PC 2, bites and grapples PC 3
Round 4: Behir doesn't have room in its stomach to swallow PC 3 so rakes them to death instead, and gets killed by the remaining PCs on their turn.

I can't remember whether it was 2 or 3 PC deaths, but I think it was 3. Quite scary.

Christ! That is nasty! :smalleek:

[Saintheart]

you could do what i usually do with shocker lizards, but i guess behir would work, put a behir with a shambling mound ;) awesome fun

Shocker Lizards and a Shambling Mound certainly sounds like fun, but it probably won't work as well with a behir, considering the behir's breath weapon only functions once per 10 rounds in a 20 foot line.

About the only fun I can think of with the Breath Weapon is to give the behir the Quicken Breath feat from the Draconomicon and have it breathe as a free action when it grapples its first target. Bite the target, Grapple it, then Breathe on it with lightning since the target either can't get a Reflex check or takes it at substantial minuses in the behir's mouth, and then swallow the next round. That'll scare the hell out of your players, I would have thought.

[hymer]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.