Powerful Build for Paladins?

[Darrin]

I was reading through Champions of Valor for another thread, and ran across this in the Wary Swordnight substitution levels:

"Tougher than Small (Ex): When a Wary Swordknight is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), she is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her."

By my reading... this sounds like Powerful Build for Paladins. The weapon size penalty is a modifier based on the wielder's size, so... if you're medium-sized and wielding a large-sized weapon, no weapon size penalty. Thus, there is a way to get Powerful Build without resorting to Level Adjustment. You have to be a halfing, worship Arvoreen, and give up Aura of Courage (although if you need immunity to fear, you can get it back via Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Dream domain).

Thoughts?

[Gwendol]

Looks like the text on wielding larger weapons is missing though, although it isn't an unreasonable request to grant as a DM.

[Darrin]

Looks like the text on wielding larger weapons is missing though, although it isn't an unreasonable request to grant as a DM.

That's what "subject to a size modifier" covers. You're medium-sized and wielding a large weapon, so you're subject to a modifier. Based on the text, you're then treated as one size larger.

[Reverent-One]

I believe you're misreading it and that it simply removes those modifiers from opposed checks. The "or" in this case is in regards to which modifiers it allows you to ignore on those opposed checks.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, that's my understanding as well; it's in relation to opposed checks, not everything size-related.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm sorry Darrin, but Ive got to agree with the other guys here. It's missing this line from the actual Powerful Build trait:
A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.As well, this ACF requires that one also be a halfling (at least, it does in my copy of CoV), so it really just brings them up to melee par with Medium creatures.

But for a melee paladin halfling? I'd pretty much say that this level is a no-brainer, especially because it gives you more skill points (4+Int), as well as Listen/Spot as class skills (for that level).

[LanSlyde]

He also neglected to mention that you have to be a halfling. So unless you have managed to pull some crazy shenanigans. Your back to basics (medium) on grapples, trips, etc.

EDIT: aaaaand swordsaged...

[Darrin]

I believe you're misreading it and that it simply removes those modifiers from opposed checks. The "or" in this case is in regards to which modifiers it allows you to ignore on those opposed checks.

Ah, I see where I got confused. I was reading it as:

Clause 1) subject to a size modifier
Clause 2) subject to a special size modifier for an opposed check

You're saying:

Clause 1) subject to a size modifier for an opposed check
Clause 2) subject to a special size modifier for an opposed check

Hmm. I'm somewhat confused how a "special size modifier" would be any different from a non-special size modifier. Is there anything that's actually specifically called a "special size modifier"? Bleah. (I still like my way better...)

[Reverent-One]

Yep, that's what we meant. I don't know when a "special size modifier" is used either though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yep, that's what we meant. I don't know when a "special size modifier" is used either though.

Have no fear, kobolds to the rescue!


Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character.

[Reverent-One]

That's actually more of the same (as it's the same power in reverse), it references what happens if a character is subject to a special size modifier, but I don't know of anything that actually subjects a character to a special size modifier (not that I claim encyclopedic knowledge of 3.5).

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's actually more of the same (as it's the same power in reverse), it references what happens if a character is subject to a special size modifier, but I don't know of anything that actually subjects a character to a special size modifier (not that I claim encyclopedic knowledge of 3.5).

That's what I mentioned - an opposed Spot vs. Hide check lets kobolds use a 'special' size modifier for their Hide (as it's not their normal size).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Both grapple and hide use a special size modifier for their related checks, as opposed to the standard size modifier used in relation to attacks and AC.

[Darrin]

Both grapple and hide use a special size modifier for their related checks, as opposed to the standard size modifier used in relation to attacks and AC.

Mystery solved, then.

I am aware that this is grasping at straws... but is "opposed roll" defined in the rules anywhere? Isn't an attack roll "opposed" by the target's AC?

Hmm. The PHB and the Rules Compendium uses the term "opposed check" instead of "opposed roll". Yeah, that's not gonna fly.

[Tvtyrant]

I was reading through Champions of Valor for another thread, and ran across this in the Wary Swordnight substitution levels:

"Tougher than Small (Ex): When a Wary Swordknight is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), she is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her."

By my reading... this sounds like Powerful Build for Paladins. The weapon size penalty is a modifier based on the wielder's size, so... if you're medium-sized and wielding a large-sized weapon, no weapon size penalty. Thus, there is a way to get Powerful Build without resorting to Level Adjustment. You have to be a halfing, worship Arvoreen, and give up Aura of Courage (although if you need immunity to fear, you can get it back via Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Dream domain).

Thoughts?

It would be interesting to combine with Stone Blessed and the Goliath Sub level of Barbarian. You become physically large, and then can be treated as huge if you would like.

[Gwendol]

It would be interesting to combine with Stone Blessed and the Goliath Sub level of Barbarian. You become physically large, and then can be treated as huge if you would like.

Yup, was thinking along the same lines. Some workaround for the alignment restriction will have to be figured out (paladin of freedom workable here?).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yup, was thinking along the same lines. Some workaround for the alignment restriction will have to be figured out (paladin of freedom workable here?).

RAW, no. You have to give up your Aura of Courage, and Paladins of Freedom don't get that - instead, they get an Aura of Resolve.

[Jeff the Green]

RAW, no. You have to give up your Aura of Courage, and Paladins of Freedom don't get that - instead, they get an Aura of Resolve.

You could potentially swap out rage for whirling frenzy or ferocity. You can't rage if you're lawful, but you can frenzy or become fierce.

Also, I'm not sure that the fact that it replaces AoC means you can't take the level as a PoF. The only requirements are the ones set out in the 'Requirements' section (halfling, Arvoreen as patron, taking 3rd level of paladin).

[Person_Man]

Yeah, my reading is that it basically allows Halflings to count as one size larger for opposed checks, such as Grapple, Bull Rush, and Trip. And nothing else.

If you're looking for a cool obscure Paladin stuff, I suggest the Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level from the Champions of Valor web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). Gives a Gnome Paladin 6 Hide in Plain Site, plus Hide and Move Silently Skills.

If you're looking for a way for a small character to count as bigger without actually increasing size, I suggest Binder. The Zagon vestige grants Improved Grapple, Constrict, and you count as Large for the purpose of your opposed Grapple checks. Not +1 size. Large. So even if you're a Tiny character, you're still Large for Grapple checks.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You could potentially swap out rage for whirling frenzy or ferocity. You can't rage if you're lawful, but you can frenzy or become fierce.

Also, I'm not sure that the fact that it replaces AoC means you can't take the level as a PoF. The only requirements are the ones set out in the 'Requirements' section (halfling, Arvoreen as patron, taking 3rd level of paladin).

Odd. In my copy of CoV, the last sentence of Tougher Than Small (Ex) reads as follows;
This benefit replaces the standard paladin's aura of courage class feature.