E6 homemade feat

[Yogibear41]

So I've been working on this campaing setting off and on for awhile for E6, and in this campaing setting arcane magic is outlawed in about 85% or so of the world (the gods themselves condemn it, there is some hidden story lore behind that but thats something for another time) so more or less playing a sorcerer is going to be incredibly difficult at times ( no wizards in this world for lore reasons, well there might be a few hidden somewhere :smallsmile:) so I want to give the players a little more incentive to play them.

Anyway I've already decided to give sorcerers unlimited cantrips from the get go and I am thinking of creating a feat requiring 6th level sorcerer(or 6th level sorcerer casting if they take a prestige class) that will also give them unlimited 1st level spells every day (they can still only cast the spells they know)

I plan to urge anyone who wants to play a sorcerer to pick up the battle sorcerer variant so they can wear armor and use weapons better(so they can blend in better and also so they get a little boost to hp) I also plan to let them keep bluff as a class skill if they go this rout (they will probably need it)

So anyway, what do yall think about this feat? it doesn't seem to broken to me besides I never liked the idea of a caster "running out of spells" and this way they will always be able to do something castery that is still decently good.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, I could use this with Arcane Thesis and a +0 and a +1 metamagic to get unlimited metamagicked spells a day. As I continue to level I can make the spell better and better by adding a number of +0 metamagic feats equal to the amount of slot increase a bigger one would need -1. So 2 +0s would make Maximize work, or 1 plus 0 for extend.

So lesser acid orb+ energy substitution electricity+Born of Three Thunders+City Spell + Maximize gets me an unlimited amount of 40 damage spells that do one quarter electricity, one quarter sonic, and half city damage and forces a reflex save against being knocked prone.

Edit: On the other hand you could give them one at-will SLA.

[Yogibear41]

I think im slightly confused by your post, Maximize is +3 to spell level.

If you happen to be talking about that feat that lets you burn two level 1 spells to cast a level 2 spell and so on it will most definently not work with this feat.


Also what book is city spell from? cityscape?


Edit: found the city spell feat, there won't be alot of action inside cities(combat anyway) so this feat will be next to useless.

Then again anything could happen, I just don't expect their to be alot of combat within cities.

[Xervous]

Unlimited cantrips are fine

Battle sorcerer sucks. Learning one less spell at every level hurts the sorcerer who only has so many picks to be made. In E6, it is utterly crippling. At 6th level, you know 3 1st level spells, ONE 2nd level spell and NO THIRD LEVEL SPELLS. You also lose one spell slot of each level. This value lost is 4 feats if you are allowing Expanded Spell Knowledge and Expanded Caster Stamina.


What are you getting for this? 3/4 BAB which amounts to a difference of +1 to hit at 6th level on a class that won't be rolling anything but touch attacks. Light armor proficiency (a worthless feat) and the ability to cast in light armor with no ASF are easily replaced by a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt which has no ACP and no ASF.

Going by averages, the increase in HD nets you 14 HP more than a standard sorcerer. HP is nice, but you can always play smarter, which it is very easy to do as a sorcerer when you can expand your spells know with unusual speed.

AND:

Tvtyrant, you do bring up a good point about arcane thesis abuse, which E6 makes all too easy with its boatload of feats.

[dascarletm]

I second Tvtyrant's point.

Unlimited 1st levels in an E6 game may not be too bad, but may miss the point. Though it is up to you as the DM. Depends on what the other players playing with the sorcerer are. (a warlock for example would feel pretty worthless.)

[Fable Wright]

So I've been working on this campaing setting off and on for awhile for E6, and in this campaing setting arcane magic is outlawed in about 85% or so of the world (the gods themselves condemn it, there is some hidden story lore behind that but thats something for another time) so more or less playing a sorcerer is going to be incredibly difficult at times ( no wizards in this world for lore reasons, well there might be a few hidden somewhere :smallsmile:) so I want to give the players a little more incentive to play them.

Anyway I've already decided to give sorcerers unlimited cantrips from the get go and I am thinking of creating a feat requiring 6th level sorcerer(or 6th level sorcerer casting if they take a prestige class) that will also give them unlimited 1st level spells every day (they can still only cast the spells they know)

I plan to urge anyone who wants to play a sorcerer to pick up the battle sorcerer variant so they can wear armor and use weapons better(so they can blend in better and also so they get a little boost to hp) I also plan to let them keep bluff as a class skill if they go this rout (they will probably need it)

So anyway, what do yall think about this feat? it doesn't seem to broken to me besides I never liked the idea of a caster "running out of spells" and this way they will always be able to do something castery that is still decently good.
First off, recommend Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, as that increases the HP more and grants more weapon proficiencies with no cost. The feat doesn't really seem that broken, especially as there aren't many 1st level spells known. If you really want to incentivize Battle Sorcerers, you should make a feat where they can cast a spell of their choice off of their spell list a few times per day, to make the lack of spells known significantly less brutal on the Sorcerer.

[Tvtyrant]

I think im slightly confused by your post, Maximize is +3 to spell level.

If you happen to be talking about that feat that lets you burn two level 1 spells to cast a level 2 spell and so on it will most definently not work with this feat.


Also what book is city spell from? cityscape?

Arcane Thesis is from the Player's Handbook II, and it allows you to lower the effective slot used by a metamagic feat by 1 per metamagic being applied to a specific spell you pick when you take the Arcane Thesis feat. There are a large number of +0 slot metamagic feats, so if they are applied to an Arcane Thesis feat they lower the cost of a different metamagic feat. Two +0 feats and a +3 feat thus no longer raise it to a fourth level slot, but instead leave it as a 1st level slot. So now I can apply a ton of metamagic to a spell and use it an infinite number of times.

City Magic (I got the name wrong) is from Cityscape, and it converts half of a spells damage to "citydamage."

[Yogibear41]

As far as spells known for battle caster: casters will be able to learn new spells from certain sources, so they will really only be losing out on casting slots in the long run.

[Xervous]

Was there ever a ruling on how many different energy substitutions you can apply to one spell?

[Yogibear41]

Arcane Thesis is from the Player's Handbook II, and it allows you to lower the effective slot used by a metamagic feat by 1 per metamagic being applied to a specific spell you pick when you take the Arcane Thesis feat. There are a large number of +0 slot metamagic feats, so if they are applied to an Arcane Thesis feat they lower the cost of a different metamagic feat. Two +0 feats and a +3 feat thus no longer raise it to a fourth level slot, but instead leave it as a 1st level slot. So now I can apply a ton of metamagic to a spell and use it an infinite number of times.

City Magic (I got the name wrong) is from Cityscape, and it converts half of a spells damage to "citydamage."


Too much RAW and not enough common sense IMO arcane thesis will reduce the cost of each metamagic feat by 1 so a +3 spell will go down to +2 no matter how many +0 metamagics you add on.

[Tvtyrant]

Too much RAW and not enough common sense IMO arcane thesis will reduce the cost of each metamagic feat by 1 so a +3 spell will go down to +2 no matter how many +0 metamagics you add on.

You are going to be common sensing a lot then. Even if we ignore all of the abilities like Arcane Strike that are now ludicrous, you still have to deal with having an infinite number of summons that can run in front of the party and take any traps for it and a party that can gain a perpetual haze of buffs.

At the very least Mage Armor and Protection from Evil on every single party member all the time, plus Enlarge Person for the melee and Reduce Person for the casters.

Spells are really powerful, and even if they only know a few first level spells having an infinite number of slots is extremely potent. Especially if everyone is only level 6.

[Fable Wright]

You are going to be common sensing a lot then. Even if we ignore all of the abilities like Arcane Strike that are now ludicrous, you still have to deal with having an infinite number of summons that can run in front of the party and take any traps for it and a party that can gain a perpetual haze of buffs.

At the very least Mage Armor and Protection from Evil on every single party member all the time, plus Enlarge Person for the melee and Reduce Person for the casters.

Spells are really powerful, and even if they only know a few first level spells having an infinite number of slots is extremely potent. Especially if everyone is only level 6.

Cast an infinite number of 1st level spells, not an infinite number of 1st level spell slots. Casting 1st level spells now just takes no slots. And if you're spending all 4 of your 1st level slots on buff spells, then yes, you would be able to use all of your actions to keep everyone constantly buffed. Also, having a swarm of 6 celestial monkeys in exchange for having no move or Standard actions is not that good a trade.

[Tvtyrant]

Cast an infinite number of 1st level spells, not an infinite number of 1st level spell slots. Casting 1st level spells now just takes no slots. And if you're spending all 4 of your 1st level slots on buff spells, then yes, you would be able to use all of your actions to keep everyone constantly buffed. Also, having a swarm of 6 celestial monkeys in exchange for having no move or Standard actions is not that good a trade.

A round takes 6 seconds. I can have a Celestial Monkey running just ahead of our group and lose 6 seconds out of every 36. I spend about 15% of my time casting, which considering that in a trap environment like a dungeon we would be stopping to make checks anyways, its barely a consideration. In combat 6 seconds are meaningful, out of it 6 seconds is a flicker in time.

Yogibear41 already mentioned that they would be able to learn spells from other locations, so I think it is safe to say that they can cast more than 4. And 1st level spells aside from Grease lose their in-combat luster after level 3, so trading them out for permanent buffs makes sense.

Edit: I'm not trying to fight with anyone. Yogibear41 asked about the feat, I happen to believe that infinite level 1 spells is far too strong for E6. If they were Warlock Invocations, which generally are not very strong, it would be different. Spells were designed to be balanced by their low number of uses, and even that fails to tame them.

[Yogibear41]

Hmm I see your point about infinite buff spells and infinite summons, but at the same time I'm not sure thats a bad thing. I've pretty much already got a full list of all the monsters I want to use and it has a decent number of higher than average CR monsters on it for an e6 game.

The reason I choose e6 is because I want to put a focus on the limits of a characters "mortality" or such, but I already have some long term plans for how players can overcome their mortality one way or another to increase their power long term. This will mostly be done by templates. Now I won't be telling them this of course and in order to earn these said powers they will have to look in the right places and probably do some dangerous things in order to unlock them, but in an e6 world the power boost will be more than worth the danger.

As far as the whole "acquire more spells" aspect I'm putting into the game that won't be a for sure thing either. As I said arcane magic is stricly forbidden in most of the world. So finding a new spell would be akin to finding a magic item(which by the way will be rare on their own account)

I guess to really gauge the power of the feat, an entire overview of how I want to build the world would probably be helpful, perhaps one day after I hash out all the details I will type up a nice long post and put it in the homebrew section.

[Gullintanni]

Unlimited cantrips are fine

Battle sorcerer sucks. Learning one less spell at every level hurts the sorcerer who only has so many picks to be made. In E6, it is utterly crippling. At 6th level, you know 3 1st level spells, ONE 2nd level spell and NO THIRD LEVEL SPELLS. You also lose one spell slot of each level. This value lost is 4 feats if you are allowing Expanded Spell Knowledge and Expanded Caster Stamina.


This is incorrect. Battle Sorcerer reduces spells known for any given level by one, to a minimum of one. Therefore, a level 6 Battle Sorcerer knows 3 1st level spells, 1 2nd level spell and 1 3rd level spell.

Otherwise, correct. Battle Sorcerers in E6 serve one role well, and that is that when paired with a Paladin 2, the combination yields a solid gish. Limited, for sure, but, playable.

Lots of Cha synergy, only loses 1BAB, fights in a Mithral Breastplate and adds a splash of spellcasting.

Mixes well with the Harmonius Knight sub level from Champions of Valor and Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows.

[Fable Wright]

Otherwise, correct. Battle Sorcerers in E6 serve one role well, and that is that when paired with a Paladin 2, the combination yields a solid gish. Limited, for sure, but, playable.

It works as a solid Gish without Paladin. It's one of the very, very few ways to get Arcane Strike in E6, and 1 3rd level spell (and maybe more) 3-4 times per day (with uses increased again with Versatile Spellcaster) is significantly more powerful than what Paladin offers (+1 to hit, +Cha to saves, a small reserve of healing and a weak, 1/day smite). Arcane Strike blows Smite out of the water, and Stinking Cloud, Suggestion, or Haste in each encounter gives a much more powerful boost than high saving throws, which Evil's Blessing can replicate anyways.

[Gullintanni]

I suppose. I enjoy Tier 3 characters, and I find that Pal2/Sorc4 is a resilient, flavorful character that can contribute in a wide variety of situations.

Divine Companion Sorc ACF grants additional healing, Harmonius Knight grants Inspire Courage, which is beneficial for the whole party. With the right perform skill, it can be maintained indefinitely.

Cha to Saves just makes for a more defensive chassis. Comes down to personal preference for me. That and I don't really care about Arcane Strike.

[Fable Wright]

I suppose. I enjoy Tier 3 characters, and I find that Pal2/Sorc4 is a resilient, flavorful character that can contribute in a wide variety of situations.

Divine Companion Sorc ACF grants additional healing, Harmonius Knight grants Inspire Courage, which is beneficial for the whole party. With the right perform skill, it can be maintained indefinitely.

Cha to Saves just makes for a more defensive chassis. Comes down to personal preference for me. That and I don't really care about Arcane Strike.

Any bardic music can be maintained indefinitely. The problem is that it takes a Standard action each round to maintain it as per RAW. Regular Stalwart Battle Sorcerer can use Divine companion better than the Sorcadin, and has more base HP than the Sorcadin from Stalwart. And, again, Cha to saves can be picked up (albeit in a limited capacity) for a feat, of which you have many in E6. I'm not saying it's a bad build, it's just that I don't see what the Paladin levels contribute when you could be tossing Haste around more often than the Paladin version has Inspire Courage uses.

[Gullintanni]

Are you sure?

Inspire Courage isn't called out as requiring concentration, and only those songs requiring concentration require a standard action to maintain. Only Inspire Competence, from my reading, of the bard class, requires concentration. Assuming I'm wrong though, then the correct application of IC is simply to keep it active until combat begins and then immediately cease, for 5 rounds of improved combat ability.

For what it's worth, no DM I play for would permit stacking Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer. It's RAW legal, I know, but it's cheesy in the same way that stacking Domain Wizard and Elven Generalist is kinda cheesy.

Evil's Blessing is also far from bullet proof. It requires a Standard Action activation, which doesn't really help protect you from poisoned arrow traps or a caster who beats your iniative score.

There's no doubt that the Sorcerer brings more spellcasting to the table, and is probably a stronger gish overall for it, but if I was going for a truly powerful gish, Druid 6 probably wins :smallwink: