I think redcloak is doomed to fail. Here's why.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Xykon could be a multiple phylactory lich. We just don't know it yet. And it could have happened during the retrieval of the first one.

DUN DUN DUN!

Xykon is smarter than he appears. I bet he remembers roys name and uses his charisma score to fool him.

[BenjCano]

Oh, a multiple phylactery lich! That would be amazing. That would make Xykon a lich on par with those other multiple phylactery liches like.....

...

...

And don't forget...

...

...

And there was also...

...


...

Seriously, name a multiple phylactery lich.

[Kish]

Yes, of course Redcloak is doomed to fail. He's a villain, and--

--because you bet Xykon has multiple phylacteries? That's why Redcloak is doomed to fail?

Never mind.

[Math_Mage]

Xykon could be a what now?

[137beth]

Oh, a multiple phylactery lich! That would be amazing. That would make Xykon a lich on par with those other multiple phylactery liches like.....

...

...

And don't forget...

...

...

And there was also...

...


...

Seriously, name a multiple phylactery lich.
You're missing ...., .*_, and $multiple_phylactery_lich$.

[SoC175]

Seriously, name a multiple phylactery lich.Aumvor the Undying, an epic lich from Faerun

[Smolder]

Oh, a multiple phylactery lich! That would be amazing. That would make Xykon a lich on par with those other multiple phylactery liches like.....

...

...

And don't forget...

...

...

And there was also...

...


...

Seriously, name a multiple phylactery lich.

I can think of one... but He Shall Not Be Named.

[Reddish Mage]

This isn't Harry Potter! Oh wait, there's actual D&D lich with multiple Phylacteries?



Aumvor the Undying, an epic lich from Faerun


Still...I don't think Xykon would have gotten so pissed about Redcloak's lost Holy Symbol if he had a spare.

[137beth]

Still...I don't think Xykon would have gotten so pissed about Redcloak's lost Holy Symbol if he had a spare.
Seconded. Even more indicative, I don't think he would have freaked out nearly as much about Soon if there was no chance of him permanently dieing. i mean, if he had another phylactery, then Soon could easily have killed redcloak, and Xykon would escape to his other phylactery. He doesn't really care about redcloak, so he was most likely freaking out about his own potential destruction.

[SoC175]

This isn't Harry Potter! Oh wait, there's actual D&D lich with multiple Phylacteries?





Still...I don't think Xykon would have gotten so pissed about Redcloak's lost Holy Symbol if he had a spare.And the whole thing with Aumvor's epic spell is just silly, since it allows for infinite phylacteries.

[Reathin]

If you're refering to Demi-liches and the fact that their soul gems function as extra phylactery:

1) They're stuck in the body and it's pretty likely the Order would obliterate Xykon's body, so big whoop

2) I won't claim to speak for the Giant's plot, but I don't see Xykon becoming a demi-lich. That's expensive, time consuming work! He's faced, like, one thing that can really hurt him (army of ghost paladin lead by an epic character), not counting Roy knocking him into the gate, so he's not in a hurry to refine his insane strength. Besides, being a skull without a body is less stylish, and Xykon likes him some style.

[Peelee]

I don't see Xykon becoming a demi-lich. That's expensive, time consuming work!

Solely to play devil's advocate, Xykon is an epic-level undead sorcerer who doesn't need sleep and can completely destroy, pillage, and loot, and plunder small towns on his own, and large city-states with an army (which he employs by virtue of being an epic-level undead sorcerer. You could argue he employs the army by virtue of a high-level goblin cleric having their respect and devotion, but he controls the high-level goblin cleric by being an epic-level undead sorcerer, so you'd just be adding a middle-man to the process with such an argument).

And he's pretty much got nothing but time on his hands. He's undead, it's not like old age is creeping up on him anytime soon. Hell, he spent half a year in Azure City/Gobbotopia chilling out and watching O-Chul get hurt.

There are probably dozens or good reasons for him to not be a demi-lich. Time and money are two that are definitely not.

[137beth]

Solely to play devil's advocate, Xykon is an epic-level undead sorcerer who doesn't need sleep and can completely destroy, pillage, and loot, and plunder small towns on his own, and large city-states with an army (which he employs by virtue of being an epic-level undead sorcerer. You could argue he employs the army by virtue of a high-level goblin cleric having their respect and devotion, but he controls the high-level goblin cleric by being an epic-level undead sorcerer, so you'd just be adding a middle-man to the process with such an argument).

And he's pretty much got nothing but time on his hands. He's undead, it's not like old age is creeping up on him anytime soon. Hell, he spent half a year in Azure City/Gobbotopia chilling out and watching O-Chul get hurt.

There are probably dozens or good reasons for him to not be a demi-lich. Time and money are two that are definitely not.

Yea, I'm gonna go with "not stylish" as the main reason for Xykon not to become a demilich.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Xykon isn't as stupid as he appears to be. While he was away redcloak retrieved the real phylactory.

What was xykon doing in the mean time?

Building another phylactory!

DUN DUN DUUUUN!


Don't you get it! Redcloaks plan was revealed in comic! It can't work now! Observe how oots drama works. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html

Xykons not openly monologging to himself about his new phylactories is because it's a secret. (shh)


...but yeah, the fact that his plan is revealed to us means he can't win. There's no drama. Xykon might not be a multiple phylactory lich, but rule of drama folks.

[Math_Mage]

Xykon isn't as stupid as he appears to be. While he was away redcloak retrieved the real phylactory.

What was xykon doing in the mean time?

Building another phylactory!

DUN DUN DUUUUN!


Don't you get it! Redcloaks plan was revealed in comic! It can't work now! Observe how oots drama works. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html

Xykons not openly monologging to himself about his new phylactories is because it's a secret. (shh)


...but yeah, the fact that his plan is revealed to us means he can't win. There's no drama. Xykon might not be a multiple phylactory lich, but rule of drama folks.

...Wut.

Can you please decide what your point is, and argue for it?

[thatSeniorGuy]

Question (SOD spoilers):
Do we have any evidence that Xykon actually knows how to make a phylactery? My impression from SOD (and granted it has been a while since I read it) is that Redcloak was the one who knew how to create a lich, and hence how to make a phylactery. I know that by RAW a lich must create its own phylactery, but it wouldn't be the first time that the Giant has bent the rules. Also, I noticed that the fine gentlepeople in the Class and Level thread have given the Craft Wondrous Item feat for Redcloak, not Xykon.

[Bird]

While I doubt Redcloak will get a happy ending, I don't think that we'll see the goblins going back to living in the dirt, either. Part of the point of OotS is that sentient "monsters" are not just chunks of x.p. to be slaughtered. Maybe PM Jirix will get his Gobbotopia -- while would entail Redcloak succeeding in some fashion.

No way of knowing how that world-in-a-world will shake out, either, but it's easy to imagine ways of it being good for goblins.

[CRtwenty]

Redcloak's actual plan is going to fail, because he's a villian and villians lose to heroes in these kinds of stories. But it's not going to be because Xykon created another phylactery.

I agree that the Goblins lot will probably be improved. They'll likely have to return Azure City to its rightful owners and move somewhere else though.

[Kornaki]

Happy ending... for Elan at least. Just because the story is about how monsters are more than chunks of xp doesn't mean the monsters get to succeed at the end. I'm pretty ambivalent as to which way I think it will go - I think that the goblins being wiped out for their transgressions and ending the comic watching a tear roll down redcloak's eye (or something similar) could be fairly poignant.

Also I would argue that Redcloak's plan has not been revealed to us. We know he has Xykon's phylactery, but wtf is he going to do with it? We really have no idea

[Porthos]

They'll likely have to return Azure City to its rightful owners and move somewhere else though.

Just a hunch, but I wouldn't bet on that happening.

Especially since the Azure City refugees now have a place to live (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html).

[CowardlyPaladin]

If you're refering to Demi-liches and the fact that their soul gems function as extra phylactery:

1) They're stuck in the body and it's pretty likely the Order would obliterate Xykon's body, so big whoop

2) I won't claim to speak for the Giant's plot, but I don't see Xykon becoming a demi-lich. That's expensive, time consuming work! He's faced, like, one thing that can really hurt him (army of ghost paladin lead by an epic character), not counting Roy knocking him into the gate, so he's not in a hurry to refine his insane strength. Besides, being a skull without a body is less stylish, and Xykon likes him some style.

Actually Xykon has almost lost almost every fight he has been in.

SOD spoilers


Lirian killed him, and if she knew how Lichs operated she might have defeated him again, with native allies and whatnot

Durokan could have beaten him if he hadn't lost his temper



Roy getting Lucky

The Ghost Matyrs

and Darth V is she hadn't been an extremely poor planner. Xykon cuts its close pretty often, relying mostly upon his foes tatical errors and the fact that he can simply dish out so much damage.

[Reddish Mage]

While I doubt Redcloak will get a happy ending, I don't think that we'll see the goblins going back to living in the dirt, either. Part of the point of OotS is that sentient "monsters" are not just chunks of x.p. to be slaughtered. Maybe PM Jirix will get his Gobbotopia -- while would entail Redcloak succeeding in some fashion.

No way of knowing how that world-in-a-world will shake out, either, but it's easy to imagine ways of it being good for goblins.

Well here's one. There's no evidence of goblins being non-evil or having the potential to create a non-evil civilization except in SOD. The good teenage goblins went through a very passing phase. Gobbotopia, I don't recall enough detail of it being even a normalized city, most of what we see is the use of human slavery! Also the Giant mentioned that SOD is told from Redcloak's perspective and it may be biased.

The idea of goblins deserving racial equality alongside the PC-races sounds admirable in abstract when we don't look at the behavior of the actual goblins in the strip. In the end though, Redcloak, the prophet of this vision, wishes to enslave, torture and kill humans in kind, and he is willing to kill untold number of goblins to advance the plan, he is even willing to undo all of existence! The only evidence we get of normalized, not obviously evil, goblin-living is in SOD and Redcloak destroyed that for the plan!

I also wonder as to why goblins should get their day and not orcs, ogres, drow or other evil (in OOTS at least these races are evil as encountered) NPC races. If Gobbotopia is going to menace the surroundings lands, its survival and thriving would not be a good thing.

[137beth]

We haven't seen anything to indicate that OOTS orcs are usually evil...
just really really dumb. They were willing to negotiate with Qarr, but they were probably to dumb to realize he was evil to begin with.

[Reddish Mage]

We haven't seen anything to indicate that OOTS orcs are usually evil...
just really really dumb. They were willing to negotiate with Qarr, but they were probably to dumb to realize he was evil to begin with.

Hmm, your right. Those orcs didn't seem too bad in the end. Except for the part about the human sacrifice, but that's a pretty big BUT! I see a similar theme every time orcs show up. It seems the same with half-Orcs. Thog seems like he could turn out ok if he was under the right guidance for long enough, but the violence Thog is capable of without remorse is scary! Therkla is similar, as she was willing to kill Lien without a hint of compassion. The Orcs in OTOOPCs might be a possible exception to this rule. though they did kill the earlier adventurers they think are after their concert seats. I don't consider it much evidence that the hypocritical paladin claims they were listed as chaotic evil and so could be killed, he seems to be making a reference to the Monster Manual were they are listed as "usually evil."

The Giant said on the subject that Thog was supposed to be definitely evil, but child-like and like-able until you see what he was capable of (like putting the blacksmith on a leash and pretending he was a dog; or killing the Sylph). I think the orcs that show up are very similar to the personality and alignment of Thog.

Aside from orcs we have in-comic evidence as to the Ogres being evil from a few encounters. Tarquin mentions the Drow as potential allies and Zz'dtri is evil. Generally, I assume the Monster Manual listing about "evil" races means we can assume any member that shows up is evil unless we get evidence otherwise, at least until I see evidence that OOTS is willing to deviate from this.

[Math_Mage]

Aside from orcs we have in-comic evidence as to the Ogres being evil from a few encounters. Tarquin mentions the Drow as potential allies and Zz'dtri is evil. Generally, I assume the Monster Manual listing about "evil" races means we can assume any member that shows up is evil unless we get evidence otherwise, at least until I see evidence that OOTS is willing to deviate from this.

It's ironic that this assumption is actually preeeeeetty accurate, considering a central theme of this comic has been 'judging individuals by their race is NOT OK.' Of course, the fact that Rich managed to weave that theme into the story WITHOUT manufacturing the umpteenth Drizz't Do'Urden clone speaks to his skill.

[B. Dandelion]

Also the Giant mentioned that SOD is told from Redcloak's perspective and it may be biased.

Wait what?


The events of Start of Darkness are not a narrative being told by Redcloak, except for the crayon pages (which totally are). You are right, your friend is wrong. Everything you see happened.

The caveat is that "not everything that happened was seen," but nowhere is it suggested that this is to create "bias", but only to omit things that aren't relevant to Redcloak's story.


I also wonder as to why goblins should get their day and not orcs, ogres, drow or other evil (in OOTS at least these races are evil as encountered) NPC races.

Goblins seem to be the focal point, but the plan specifically does mention getting a better deal for all the disenfranchised humanoid races. The history book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) says that Gobbotopia is open to a list of creatures that's so long it runs off the page so we can't read the whole thing.

[thereaper]

There's nothing to suggest that a Lich can have more than one phylactery. Indeed, the existence of the demilich (which is effectively a multi-phylactery lich) suggests that they cannot.


Hmm, your right. Those orcs didn't seem too bad in the end. Except for the part about the human sacrifice, but that's a pretty big BUT! I see a similar theme every time orcs show up. It seems the same with half-Orcs. Thog seems like he could turn out ok if he was under the right guidance for long enough, but the violence Thog is capable of without remorse is scary! Therkla is similar, as she was willing to kill Lien without a hint of compassion. The Orcs in OTOOPCs might be a possible exception to this rule. though they did kill the earlier adventurers they think are after their concert seats. I don't consider it much evidence that the hypocritical paladin claims they were listed as chaotic evil and so could be killed, he seems to be making a reference to the Monster Manual were they are listed as "usually evil."

The Giant said on the subject that Thog was supposed to be definitely evil, but child-like and like-able until you see what he was capable of (like putting the blacksmith on a leash and pretending he was a dog; or killing the Sylph). I think the orcs that show up are very similar to the personality and alignment of Thog.

Aside from orcs we have in-comic evidence as to the Ogres being evil from a few encounters. Tarquin mentions the Drow as potential allies and Zz'dtri is evil. Generally, I assume the Monster Manual listing about "evil" races means we can assume any member that shows up is evil unless we get evidence otherwise, at least until I see evidence that OOTS is willing to deviate from this.

We also have in-comic evidence of humans, elves, and half-elves being evil. Heck, the only halfling we've seen (that I can recall at least) is an unrepentant murderer. I guess that every one of them must be too, and so if we see them on the street we should kill them for XP, right?

Not only do we have evidence that this way of thinking is wrong, but it is one of the single biggest themes of the entire comic. That was the whole point of the Darth V arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html).

Heck, we even have the Giant's own words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718471#post12718471) vehemently rejecting this idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718550#post12718550).

[CRtwenty]

We also have in-comic evidence of humans, elves, and half-elves being evil. Heck, the only halfling we've seen (that I can recall at least) is an unrepentant murderer. I guess that every one of them must be too, and so if we see them on the street we should kill them for XP, right?

Serini and Hank would beg to differ, as they appear to be both Good and Neutral respectively.

[thereaper]

Hank worked for the Thieve's Guild, and was trying to have Haley killed. Clearly, Serini must be evil, too, and is simply better at hiding it!

[rodneyAnonymous]

Actually Xykon has almost lost almost every fight he has been in.

Do you mean Xykon could have lost every fight he's been in? Half of those examples are fights he won. It doesn't really matter if Darth Vaarsuvius might have won if s/he had been smarter and the sun wasn't in his/her eyes and the wind was right... s/he didn't.

Plus several fights are left out of that short list, such as the one against Fyron, not to mention the many victories he must have had off-panel, being epic level and all. He's only lost a few fights: round 1 versus Lirian (he won the next round), round 1 versus Roy (ditto), and against Soon's ghost.

Dude is frickin' scary.

[Reddish Mage]

It's ironic that this assumption is actually preeeeeetty accurate, considering a central theme of this comic has been 'judging individuals by their race is NOT OK.' Of course, the fact that Rich managed to weave that theme into the story WITHOUT manufacturing the umpteenth Drizz't Do'Urden clone speaks to his skill.

Yes, and its all the more shocking given the Giant's quotes thereaper has below.


Wait what?



The caveat is that "not everything that happened was seen," but nowhere is it suggested that this is to create "bias", but only to omit things that aren't relevant to Redcloak's story.



Goblins seem to be the focal point, but the plan specifically does mention getting a better deal for all the disenfranchised humanoid races. The history book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) says that Gobbotopia is open to a list of creatures that's so long it runs off the page so we can't read the whole thing.

I love it when I'm proven wrong like this. Thank you B. Dandelion.



Not only do we have evidence that this way of thinking is wrong, but it is one of the single biggest themes of the entire comic. That was the whole point of the Darth V arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html).

Heck, we even have the Giant's own words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718471#post12718471) vehemently rejecting this idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718550#post12718550).


I thought I read all the Giant quotes on the subject, but those are the strongest yet.

I'm not sure I would read the evils of prejudice of fantastic "evil-leaning" species is the "whole point of the Darth V arc," I think there are MANY points of the Darth V arc. I read the point of the familicide spell is that "indiscriminate killing has unintended consequences" one of which is that there can be good black dragons that V may have killed, but that question is theoretical next to the obvious consequence that a huge clan of humans (and their paramours) with some distant dragon blood were very obviously unintentionally wiped out, with potentially disastrous consequences to the world.

However, the fact that V is troubled by the fact he/she never even stopped to consider there might be "good black dragons," suggests it is a takeaway point, and may even be THE takeaway point meant (clan of dead humans aside).

Now from these quotes judging or writing up creatures as evil based on any sort of notion of racial (special? genusial? Phylum?) is wrong, simply wrong, in the Giant's view and everything the Giant is writing is dedicated to this theme. Yet, the points about such racism have been made very subtly in-comic so far.

[Amphiox]

I also wonder as to why goblins should get their day and not orcs, ogres, drow or other evil (in OOTS at least these races are evil as encountered) NPC races.

The goblins are getting their day because they have themselves a God who wants them to get their day. (The drow probably have their own God too, but the drow probably already have had their day. They've got what's implied to be a nation, one big and strong enough that Tarquin is intrigued at the possibility of an alliance with them)

Elan may have set more in motion than he realized when he introduced the Ogres to the Clown Pantheon!

[CRtwenty]

The goblins are getting their day because they have themselves a God who wants them to get their day. (The drow probably have their own God too, but the drow probably already have had their day. They've got what's implied to be a nation, one big and strong enough that Tarquin is intrigued at the possibility of an alliance with them)

Elan may have set more in motion than he realized when he introduced the Ogres to the Clown Pantheon!

He introduced a tribe of Orcs to Banjo and Giggles.

But I fully support the Orcs banding their species behind the Puppet God of Slapstick. Still makes more sense then Warhammer Orcs at least. :p

[Silverionmox]

Well here's one. There's no evidence of goblins being non-evil or having the potential to create a non-evil civilization except in SOD. The good teenage goblins went through a very passing phase. Gobbotopia, I don't recall enough detail of it being even a normalized city, most of what we see is the use of human slavery!

I don't see why being non-evil is a requirement to be called a civilization. The whole desert continent is stitched together with slavery and oppression. And Gobbotopia already has diplomatic recognition and trade agreements, so it's a done deal.

[Ghost Nappa]

I don't see why being non-evil is a requirement to be called a civilization. The whole desert continent is stitched together with slavery and oppression. And Gobbotopia already has diplomatic recognition and trade agreements, so it's a done deal.

I agree. It would make more sense to have being non-chaotic as a requirement. Tyrannical leaders can and have existed, and were very much evil. They were not however, Chaotic.

The larger a society and culture you want to band together, the more lawful you need to be. Otherwise there's a power vacuum when someone dies. You need a proper order of succession and rules and such so that the masses don't rebel when they don't get what they want. (Imagine if an heirless King/Queen dies: who calls the shots?)

You can get by in a "civilization" on Charisma, but that's far less stable than rules and regulations and the second you have an uncharismatic leader, things fall apart.

In theory you need both Charisma and Laws to maintain a society, but you can get for a short while with only one.

[hamishspence]

I agree. It would make more sense to have being non-chaotic as a requirement. Tyrannical leaders can and have existed, and were very much evil. They were not however, Chaotic.

Shojo? Not as tyrannical as most- but still ruling more by his own whimsical announcements, rather than custom and tradition.

It's not too hard to imagine an Evil Shojo.

Now- his society might be more Lawful-leaning (and DMG2 goes so far as to say "Empires are always Lawful- if they become Chaotic, they fall apart".

But that doesn't mean the person at the top has to be Lawful.

[Mammal]

I think Redcloak is "doomed to fail" because he's intended as a tragic figure. His goals are noble, but he will never bring them to fruition, because that is the point of his character.

His goal is "establish equality for disenfranchised races," and he's never really made any progress towards that goal. Those that have succeeded in creating civilized Goblin states or towns have done so, in my opinion, without his help. He's been a destabilizing influence on every Goblin civilization we've seen in the comic.* His departure from Gobbotopia will, in my opinion bring about good things for the City-State. Jirix is capable, and more importantly, not subject to the whims of the Dark One (and Xykon!) in the way that Redcloak is. He has more freedom to make decision from a statesman's perspective, rather than from a holy man's perspective.

Redcloak is intended to be a tragic character in the vein of Oedipus or Hamlet. In my opinion, Redcloak's character arc has similar elements to Hamlet's. He's a justly motivated character, caught up with supernatural forces that may or may not be jerking him around. He kills people he doesn't mean to in his quest , realizes he's crossed the point of no return, and decides that he may as well see his plans to their end. He's a player, but he's almost certainly being played by everyone around him. Hamlet didn't get a happy ending despite being sympathetic "heroes," and I don't think Redcloak is getting a "happy" ending, even if some of his allies do.

Continuing the Hamlet allegory, Redcloak is Hamlet, Xykon is Claudius, and Jirix is Horatio. O-Chul and Hinjo can take turns being Fortinbras, and MitD can be both Rosencrantz & Guildernstern, but I don't know if he'd really want to be either one.

Sorry if that didn't make any sense! It's been a while since I've read Hamlet, and I'm half-asleep.



* In my opinion, Redcloak is hindering Gobbotopia by continually associating it with its brutal origins. The other nations are a lot more likely to accept the existence of Goblin City-State if the guy who slaughtered and ousted the humans isn't constantly hanging around, torturing prisoners and scheming.
SoD Spoiler
And I don't need to go into the effect he has on the Goblin town in SoD

[BardicLasher]

Does Voldemort count as a multiple phylactery lich? He's pretty close.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't see why being non-evil is a requirement to be called a civilization. The whole desert continent is stitched together with slavery and oppression. And Gobbotopia already has diplomatic recognition and trade agreements, so it's a done deal.

The initial point I was trying to make was not that Gobbotopia wasn't viable, but that it wasn't necessarily a good thing for it to succeed. We've not seen in-story evidence that Gobbotopia would be non-evil or in anyway a normalized civilization other than what Red cloak tells us.

[Morty]

Yet, the points about such racism have been made very subtly in-comic so far.

That's because the Giant is doing a better job at it than others who try to tackle this topic, and wield it with all the subtlety of Thog on a sugar rush.

With that said, the fact that it has been built on the ruins of another civilization does not do Gobbotopia any favours, no doubt about that. Even if said civilization had sent crusades to exterminate goblinoids before. Will it become its downfall? Who knows.

I'm not convinced that Redcloak is "doomed to fail", though, mostly because I don't think his goals and motives are guaranteed to stay the same. If he realizes that he allowed himself to become a monster, works towards something else and succeeds (which may or may not involve sacrificing himself), does that mean he'll have failed?

[jidasfire]

Up until recently, if you'd asked me if I thought Redcloak had a shot at the title at all, I'd have said you were crazy, but things seem to have changed for him of late. His interlude in the current arc has shown some serious development on Redlcloak's part, in terms of his power (he has access to 9th level spells), his ruthlessness (he no longer seems conflicted about his evil), and his contingency plans (he's increasingly ready to double-cross Xykon and he has Tsukiko's negative energy protection ring to stop those pesky Energy Drains). He's continually shown that he's able to put together armies of deadly minions at will and he knows how to use them effectively.

All this forces me to wonder if, at his best, he could take Xykon. If Xykon's main technique of spamming Meteor Swarms and Energy Drains is rendered ineffective and he's forced to fight devils and elementals who wear down his spell slots, could he actually lose? Hard to say. I think Redcloak is still the underdog in battle between them, as Xykon always has more tricks up his sleeve, not to mention the Monster in the Darkness as his ace, but the fact that Redcloak stands a chance shows he's come a long way.

[Mammal]

I think Redcloak is still the underdog in battle between them, as Xykon always has more tricks up his sleeve, not to mention the Monster in the Darkness as his ace, but the fact that Redcloak stands a chance shows he's come a long way.

I agree, but I still don't think he's going to "win." Xykon has a contingency plan for Redcloak's betrayal, one I don't think Redcloak will be able to counter. So even if Redcloak gains the upper hand, he'll still die. I think Redcloak would only attack Xykon if he was otherwise occupied against another enemy, so Xykon could die, as well, but Redcloak isn't surviving his hypothetical encounter with Xykon.

[Math_Mage]

We also have in-comic evidence of humans, elves, and half-elves being evil. Heck, the only halfling we've seen (that I can recall at least) is an unrepentant murderer. I guess that every one of them must be too, and so if we see them on the street we should kill them for XP, right?

Not only do we have evidence that this way of thinking is wrong, but it is one of the single biggest themes of the entire comic. That was the whole point of the Darth V arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html).

Heck, we even have the Giant's own words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718471#post12718471) vehemently rejecting this idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718550#post12718550).

Reddish Mage's point is that despite the anti-prejudice theme running through the comic, despite even the Giant's own words on the subject, it's actually pretty hard to find points in the main comic where characters of Often, Usually, or Always Evil races deviate from their racial alignment. The Oracle, Koboldo Montoya, maybe Tarquin's secretary, that one hobgoblin killed by the elven commander...and who else?

There's more of it in the prequels, to be sure. And in the main comic, a lot of the issue derives from not getting many alignment cues for anyone who isn't a protagonist or antagonist. There may have been a bunch of non-Evil hobgoblins in Gobbotopia, but we didn't see them.

[Kish]

Enor.

And I suspect most or all of the orcs on the orc island were more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Evil.

[Math_Mage]

Enor.

And I suspect most or all of the orcs on the orc island were more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Evil.

Right, that would be another visibility issue. And thanks for reminding me about Enor, I completely forgot about him.

Of course then we go find the orcs from OtOoPCs, and Right-eye, and Redcloak's sister, and...etc.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Xykon devotes 8 hours a day building magic stuff only because he can ONLY devote up to 8 hours total.

and so, I suggest to you that after redcloak bungled in losing the phylactory the 1st time, he went ahead and learned how to make another one, or had someone skilled enough to make another one for him.

I don't know who could do it, but he picked another goblin cleric I guess.

Hey, it would make an interesting foil to RC's plan...

[Reddish Mage]

Enor.

And I suspect most or all of the orcs on the orc island were more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Evil.

The orc's human sacrifice, and the sudden attacks on the hero's in Banjo's name is pretty Chaotic Evil behavior. The orc's seem dumb and child-like but that's also Thog's shtick, who is confirmably evil. Visibility is a major problem.

Also, Tarquin's secretary is in it deep despite the bureaucratic demeanor (who was carrying out Tarquin's evil decrees that entire time?) and the Oracle does worship an evil deity and shows a great deal of deference to Mama Black Dragon despite what he may well know she was about to do. That one hobgoblin seemed very nervous, the only read I had on his alignment was "neutral-afraid-this-elf-is-going-to-kill-me."

[Math_Mage]

Xykon devotes 8 hours a day building magic stuff only because he can ONLY devote up to 8 hours total.

and so, I suggest to you that after redcloak bungled in losing the phylactory the 1st time, he went ahead and learned how to make another one, or had someone skilled enough to make another one for him.

I don't know who could do it, but he picked another goblin cleric I guess.

Hey, it would make an interesting foil to RC's plan...
The problem isn't Xykon's time or capabilities. It's the fact that an ordinary lich can't have multiple phylacteries.

[thereaper]

Up until recently, if you'd asked me if I thought Redcloak had a shot at the title at all, I'd have said you were crazy, but things seem to have changed for him of late. His interlude in the current arc has shown some serious development on Redlcloak's part, in terms of his power (he has access to 9th level spells), his ruthlessness (he no longer seems conflicted about his evil), and his contingency plans (he's increasingly ready to double-cross Xykon and he has Tsukiko's negative energy protection ring to stop those pesky Energy Drains). He's continually shown that he's able to put together armies of deadly minions at will and he knows how to use them effectively.

All this forces me to wonder if, at his best, he could take Xykon. If Xykon's main technique of spamming Meteor Swarms and Energy Drains is rendered ineffective and he's forced to fight devils and elementals who wear down his spell slots, could he actually lose? Hard to say. I think Redcloak is still the underdog in battle between them, as Xykon always has more tricks up his sleeve, not to mention the Monster in the Darkness as his ace, but the fact that Redcloak stands a chance shows he's come a long way.

He can't.

Even if Redcloak gained the ability to defeat Xykon before The Plan has come to fruition (keep in mind, after The Plan succeeds, there is no need for them to fight; Redcloak has won), he would not fight him, because that would require him to admit that all of the sacrifices he has made up until this point were unnecessary. Redcloak cannot admit that. The fact that it's all for the "Greater Good of the Goblinoids" is literally the only reason Redcloak can live with himself and the things he has done.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The problem isn't Xykon's time or capabilities. It's the fact that an ordinary lich can't have multiple phylacteries.

It's possible. There's an epic spell called Aumvor's fragmented phylactery in the supplement Champions of Ruin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_of_Ruin) that "either separates the lich's phylactery into multiple objects or expands the phylactery to include multiple objects". Very unlikely though; that's pretty obscure, extremely unusual, and it hasn't been hinted at or foreshadowed at all.

[jidasfire]

He can't.

Even if Redcloak gained the ability to defeat Xykon before The Plan has come to fruition (keep in mind, after The Plan succeeds, there is no need for them to fight; Redcloak has won), he would not fight him, because that would require him to admit that all of the sacrifices he has made up until this point were unnecessary. Redcloak cannot admit that. The fact that it's all for the "Greater Good of the Goblinoids" is literally the only reason Redcloak can live with himself and the things he has done.

I've read Start of Darkness, so I'm up on all that. But things have changed since then, haven't they? Now, I'll go so far as to agree with you that he's not going to challenge Xykon any time soon, but Redcloak has of late changed. Whereas before, he was psychologically beaten down by Xykon because the lich played on his slivers of decency and guilt, I get the impression that now Redcloak is hardened inside to what he has to do. In truth, all Xykon's attempts to wither away Redcloak's soul have worked.

As to whether he will challenge the lich before The Plan is complete, you are likely right that he won't, at least not directly. But his reasons are different. Before, I'd say it was his need to be right, and his need to succeed in the face of all that he'd done, so it would be worth it and he wouldn't feel like a terrible person. Now, it's because Xykon is, to him, a useful, if highly dangerous, weapon. He's said as much. He just needs to control the weapon a little longer, make some plans to destroy it when it's no longer useful, and bide his time until he gets what he wants.

Redcloak has shown less and less concern over the deaths of his people in the course of his plans lately. He was always somewhat bad about that, but in the past, he felt remorse, or at least tried to justify it. These days, his apologies are pro-forma. It's dark development, and doesn't speak optimistically of him becoming a truly redemptive figure. It does, however, mean he's finally become a true player of the game. I'm still not convinced he can win, but as I said, I'm no longer sure he can't.

[cheesecake]

While I doubt Redcloak will get a happy ending, I don't think that we'll see the goblins going back to living in the dirt, either. Part of the point of OotS is that sentient "monsters" are not just chunks of x.p. to be slaughtered. Maybe PM Jirix will get his Gobbotopia -- while would entail Redcloak succeeding in some fashion.

No way of knowing how that world-in-a-world will shake out, either, but it's easy to imagine ways of it being good for goblins.

Must be like the tail end of drizzt novels where obould has his own orc kingdom after conquering outside of mithril haul.

[Reddish Mage]

I've read Start of Darkness, so I'm up on all that. But things have changed since then, haven't they? Now, I'll go so far as to agree with you that he's not going to challenge Xykon any time soon, but Redcloak has of late changed. Whereas before, he was psychologically beaten down by Xykon because the lich played on his slivers of decency and guilt, I get the impression that now Redcloak is hardened inside to what he has to do. In truth, all Xykon's attempts to wither away Redcloak's soul have worked.

As to whether he will challenge the lich before The Plan is complete, you are likely right that he won't, at least not directly. But his reasons are different. Before, I'd say it was his need to be right, and his need to succeed in the face of all that he'd done, so it would be worth it and he wouldn't feel like a terrible person. Now, it's because Xykon is, to him, a useful, if highly dangerous, weapon. He's said as much. He just needs to control the weapon a little longer, make some plans to destroy it when it's no longer useful, and bide his time until he gets what he wants.

Redcloak has shown less and less concern over the deaths of his people in the course of his plans lately. He was always somewhat bad about that, but in the past, he felt remorse, or at least tried to justify it. These days, his apologies are pro-forma. It's dark development, and doesn't speak optimistically of him becoming a truly redemptive figure. It does, however, mean he's finally become a true player of the game. I'm still not convinced he can win, but as I said, I'm no longer sure he can't.


Woa there. The assumption I thought is that unless there was something "good" about Redcloak or his vision, he would fail (since evil always loses). Now you are suggesting, what his move a couple of shades darker means he is in a better position, for what? Ultimate victory? To be on top after Xykon served his use (incidentally, what happens to the blood oath if REDCLOAK destroys Xykon?).

Redcloak doesn't show elements of redemption (on the other hand, neither do the goblinoids, unlike say the Orc islanders, who are very happy with their lot). His project may or may not succeed still, but from a purely story position it doesn't look good. The only thing riding on redcloak's project is that its a sympathetic one (despite the constant evil actions of the goblin underlings).

[jidasfire]

Woa there. The assumption I thought is that unless there was something "good" about Redcloak or his vision, he would fail (since evil always loses). Now you are suggesting, what his move a couple of shades darker means he is in a better position, for what? Ultimate victory? To be on top after Xykon served his use (incidentally, what happens to the blood oath if REDCLOAK destroys Xykon?).

Redcloak doesn't show elements of redemption (on the other hand, neither do the goblinoids, unlike say the Orc islanders, who are very happy with their lot). His project may or may not succeed still, but from a purely story position it doesn't look good. The only thing riding on redcloak's project is that its a sympathetic one (despite the constant evil actions of the goblin underlings).

Not exactly what I was saying. My point was more that he has a better shot at coming out on top of a throwdown with Xykon as a result of his moral shift. Personally, I think if goblinoid equality is ever going to happen, it will be independent of Redcloak himself, especially now. One way it could come about is if, after Redcloak is beaten or just gone for a long time, Jirix says to the world, "Hey, so that Redcloak guy, he doesn't really represent us. We'll agree to drop the slavery if you offer up some trade concessions and legitimize our country." Then people forget the bloodshed of the past, like they do, in favor of peace in the present. Redcloak is going too much in the direction of supervillain, and while Jirix has shown no signs yet that he might throw his benefactor under the bus, since it is unlikely Redcloak will return to Gobbotopia, he may have to do so for political expediency.

[Reddish Mage]

Not exactly what I was saying. My point was more that he has a better shot at coming out on top of a throwdown with Xykon as a result of his moral shift. Personally, I think if goblinoid equality is ever going to happen, it will be independent of Redcloak himself, especially now. One way it could come about is if, after Redcloak is beaten or just gone for a long time, Jirix says to the world, "Hey, so that Redcloak guy, he doesn't really represent us. We'll agree to drop the slavery if you offer up some trade concessions and legitimize our country." Then people forget the bloodshed of the past, like they do, in favor of peace in the present. Redcloak is going too much in the direction of supervillain, and while Jirix has shown no signs yet that he might throw his benefactor under the bus, since it is unlikely Redcloak will return to Gobbotopia, he may have to do so for political expediency.

I don't see why Jirix needs to do anything regarding Redcloak. Redcloak has given up power and doesn't seem to be interested in running Gobbotopia. Redcloak's vision was of Goblin equality, the rest is non-essential political matters Jirix is quite free to make choices on. I also have serious doubts Redcloak will even ever get to return to Gobbotopia.

EDIT - Also, its not a moral shift. Redcloak merely revealed to Tsukiko what we always known his plan was. We always knew he was merely using Xykon to get the gate.

[Math_Mage]

Xykon and Redcloak have had years decades to think about how they're going to betray each other once the Plan is complete. Nothing about that has changed, and each of them must know what the other is thinking. Redcloak's deception is just another move in the same game. What Xykon doesn't realize, as far as we know, is that the completion of the Plan is the betrayal. One gets you ten he figures it out before the Plan is executed, though.

[Reddish Mage]

Xykon and Redcloak have had years decades to think about how they're going to betray each other once the Plan is complete. Nothing about that has changed, and each of them must know what the other is thinking. Redcloak's deception is just another move in the same game. What Xykon doesn't realize, as far as we know, is that the completion of the Plan is the betrayal. One gets you ten he figures it out before the Plan is executed, though.

I'll take that bet. There's no indications Xykon knows what Redcloak is planning or even that Redcloak is planning a betrayal. If Xykon had any inclination the Snarl is useless to him, he would have killed Redcloak and found something else to do.

[thereaper]

SoD makes it very clear that Xykon is expecting a betrayal from Redcloak somewhere down the line.

Having Tsukiko try to figure out the ritual implies that he suspects it may not be what he was led to believe.


I've read Start of Darkness, so I'm up on all that. But things have changed since then, haven't they? Now, I'll go so far as to agree with you that he's not going to challenge Xykon any time soon, but Redcloak has of late changed. Whereas before, he was psychologically beaten down by Xykon because the lich played on his slivers of decency and guilt, I get the impression that now Redcloak is hardened inside to what he has to do. In truth, all Xykon's attempts to wither away Redcloak's soul have worked.

As to whether he will challenge the lich before The Plan is complete, you are likely right that he won't, at least not directly. But his reasons are different. Before, I'd say it was his need to be right, and his need to succeed in the face of all that he'd done, so it would be worth it and he wouldn't feel like a terrible person. Now, it's because Xykon is, to him, a useful, if highly dangerous, weapon. He's said as much. He just needs to control the weapon a little longer, make some plans to destroy it when it's no longer useful, and bide his time until he gets what he wants.

Redcloak has shown less and less concern over the deaths of his people in the course of his plans lately. He was always somewhat bad about that, but in the past, he felt remorse, or at least tried to justify it. These days, his apologies are pro-forma. It's dark development, and doesn't speak optimistically of him becoming a truly redemptive figure. It does, however, mean he's finally become a true player of the game. I'm still not convinced he can win, but as I said, I'm no longer sure he can't.

His need to succeed has not changed. The fact that he views Xykon as a necessary part of The Plan has not changed. The only thing that has changed since his realization that Hobgoblins are still Goblinoids is that the loss of his eye has made him colder. Under that surface, it's all still the same.

[mhsmith]

Well, no matter what else happens, he's at least brought about a goblin kingdom. So long as that doesn't come undone, even if everything else falls apart he's still succeeded in a fairly major way. I don't know if that changes his sunk cost thinking or not, but it's at least plausible.

[Nymrod]

The only thing needed to make a phylactery is Craft Wondrous Item. We know that Xykon spends a lot of time crafting magic items. If you are going to spend time doing that, that is the one feat you want to take. Xykon is also cunning. Making a complex plan is a sign of high intellect. Realizing that Redcloak might betray you though, and preparing for it, doesn't. Xykon will never pull off a Xanatos' gambit or anything similar. But he knows that it can happen and he is prepared to deal with it with brute force (and on the matter of Redcloak betraying him, he already has; that's what the MitD is there for, even though Redcloak probably doesn't know).

The Reasons You Suck speech that Xykon gave to Redcloak at the end of SoD still stands completely imo. It's just that Recloak has rationalized that away as he has everything else. And this is probably Rich's point; any natural creature is never evil in a monolithic way; we have a conscience and when we do evil acts we try to appease them by rationalizing them away. Unless you are an actual psychopath, that's the way it works not just for humans but for goblins and drow as well (and drow, one of the most evil of the natural mortals, contain or simply kill their psychopaths because they are destabilizing; even their society will not accept them).

Redcloak fully accepts that some sacrifices will have to be made for the plan to work; he gave up his brother for it. In my view he is far more morally contemptible than Xykon; at least Xykon is undead! Redcloak destroyed the lives of everyone around him just so as not to admit that he was wrong.

And this is why I think Recloak will in the end succeed. Not by the Plan. But by killing Xykon and leaving the legacy of Gobbotopia. He doesn't need the Dark One to save the goblin race and he doesn't need Xykon. All he needs is to face reality.

P.S. There is a reason why some creatures are listed as evil in the Monster Manual. For some, they are actual incarnations of evil so yeah, what did you expect (and even they can change). For most though, it is not that they are naturally evil. Rather they are products of their culture.
Orcs live in a culture of might makes right. You have to fight for your food, you are bullied non-stop, you live in abysmal conditions. The only time life becomes somewhat easier is when the tribe goes pillaging and for a while you actually have enough food that you are not hungry. If you want to be an adult, you are expected to kill. Refuse to do so and you will be killed yourself.
Also remember that religion is very important in D&D for most "monstrous" races. You have to watch the sacrifice of sentients from a young age and everyone you know seems to celebrate that.
So yeah, that's my take on alignment in D&D.

[GrumpyEye]

Not exactly what I was saying. My point was more that he has a better shot at coming out on top of a throwdown with Xykon as a result of his moral shift. Personally, I think if goblinoid equality is ever going to happen, it will be independent of Redcloak himself, especially now. One way it could come about is if, after Redcloak is beaten or just gone for a long time, Jirix says to the world, "Hey, so that Redcloak guy, he doesn't really represent us. We'll agree to drop the slavery if you offer up some trade concessions and legitimize our country." Then people forget the bloodshed of the past, like they do, in favor of peace in the present. Redcloak is going too much in the direction of supervillain, and while Jirix has shown no signs yet that he might throw his benefactor under the bus, since it is unlikely Redcloak will return to Gobbotopia, he may have to do so for political expediency.

Why would it be independent of Redcloak, that guy is like george washington and the pope wrapped up in one neat package for goblins. He is the high priest of the goblin god, not some random priest but the guy who wears the red mantle which make the user immortal and give them knowledge of the dark ones divine plan. Redcloak Undoubtedly represents goblin kind. Also take into account he is one of the few goblin leaders to effectively take over a human nation. A human nation which is shown to actively hunt out and kill goblins. How can this guys not be some sort of mythical figure to a fledgling goblin nation?

I do think it is unlikely he returns to Gobbotopia, I think he dies helping the dark one's plan succeed, just not succeed in the way he thinks it will. I see a messy death for RC at Xykons hands, and him becoming the god, because he can honestly say hes done more for goblin kind then the dark one, he founded a goblin nation, the dark one didnt make it back from the negotiating table.

[AgentofHellfire]

I also wonder as to why goblins should get their day and not orcs, ogres, drow or other evil (in OOTS at least these races are evil as encountered) NPC races. If Gobbotopia is going to menace the surroundings lands, its survival and thriving would not be a good thing.


Do you mean why'd the giant pick them as the antagonist race? Easy.

Orcs, ogres, trolls and like races just aren't overall intelligent enough to form a society and plans to become the dominant one--and while the Giant certainly has voiced his condemnation of the stereotyping of fantasy races, this pretty much is how he portrays full orcs, ogres, trolls, etc.

As for the Drow, they don't as much need a day in the sun if their corebook fluff still mostly holds. They're already the major power in the Underdark, after all, and really don't suffer the same mistreatment besides.

[veti]

The idea of goblins deserving racial equality alongside the PC-races sounds admirable in abstract when we don't look at the behavior of the actual goblins in the strip. In the end though, Redcloak, the prophet of this vision, wishes to enslave, torture and kill humans in kind, and he is willing to kill untold number of goblins to advance the plan, he is even willing to undo all of existence!

It's true, there is a tricky circle to square here. Goblins are 'not necessarily evil', but almost all the ones we actually see are. Gobbotopia is unquestionably an evil state, and if it's not wiped off the map within about six months of Xykon and Redcloak leaving it - I will have to assume that all nearby human governments are either thoroughly corrupt, or have a collective average WIS score in the region of 7, because as-is it's a demographic time bomb just waiting to explode over all their lands.

And yet - the moral of SoD was that it's not OK to treat intelligent races as mere XP fodder.

So at the moment, the human choice is between 'ethnic cleansing' and 'being lawful stupid'. Seems to me that neither of these is a plausible end-point for the story, so someone is going to have to come up with a third way. I find it hard to imagine Jirix doing that - he just hasn't had enough screen time or character development to make it plausible.

[Morty]

The way I see it, Gobbotopia is another step in a vicious circle the "PC races" and the "monster races" are locked in from the moment the latter were created. The goblinoids et al are put on crappy wastelands and hunted down for XP, so they retaliate by raiding and invading. Which makes the PC races to look at them as the enemy and hunt them down some more. The difference is that now the goblinoids managed to take and hold some ground - but they forcibly took them from humans, most of whom had never hurt a goblinoid in their lives.

So I also think that if the "monster races" are to see a happy ending, another way will need to be found. Everything Redcloak does, whether it's the Plan or the conquest of Azure City, just perpetuates the cycle of hatred that has been going on since the goblins sprung into being.

[Nymrod]

The way I see it, Gobbotopia is another step in a vicious circle the "PC races" and the "monster races" are locked in from the moment the latter were created. The goblinoids et al are put on crappy wastelands and hunted down for XP, so they retaliate by raiding and invading. Which makes the PC races to look at them as the enemy and hunt them down some more. The difference is that now the goblinoids managed to take and hold some ground - but they forcibly took them from humans, most of whom had never hurt a goblinoid in their lives.

So I also think that if the "monster races" are to see a happy ending, another way will need to be found. Everything Redcloak does, whether it's the Plan or the conquest of Azure City, just perpetuates the cycle of hatred that has been going on since the goblins sprung into being.

Or you know, Redcloak applied the doctrine of manifest destiny, which is the excuse behind all imperialism in our world and the reason we get to post on the internet and read comics instead of having to work or starve to death cause when we got born we scored big on location.

[Ramza00]

Question (SOD spoilers):
Do we have any evidence that Xykon actually knows how to make a phylactery? My impression from SOD (and granted it has been a while since I read it) is that Redcloak was the one who knew how to create a lich, and hence how to make a phylactery. I know that by RAW a lich must create its own phylactery, but it wouldn't be the first time that the Giant has bent the rules. Also, I noticed that the fine gentlepeople in the Class and Level thread have given the Craft Wondrous Item feat for Redcloak, not Xykon.

That is my point, Xykon can make a phylactery but Redcloak is the one with the actual knowledge checks that knows how the phylactery actually works, the benefits of being undead, and the (non core) possibility of multiple phylacteries.

Xykon is a sorcerer he doesn't need no stinking knowledge checks. That is why he has minions :smallwink:

[Nymrod]

That is my point, Xykon can make a phylactery but Redcloak is the one with the actual knowledge checks that knows how the phylactery actually works, the benefits of being undead, and the (non core) possibility of multiple phylacteries.

Xykon is a sorcerer he doesn't need no stinking knowledge checks. That is why he has minions :smallwink:

Xykon is a sorcerer with epic spells. Thus he has ranks in Knowledge (Arcana); at the very minimum 10 of them but most likely maxed out.

Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery is most certainly not core and I think it is about as likely that Rich would allow such cheese in his comic as it is for Goldman to become a communist or Kim Jong Un to join Psy and dance Gangnam style live on the next MTV awards.