A question about Zz'dtri

[Justreader]

I don't know if this question has been asked before, but... is Zz'dtri evil or neutral?

[Goosefarble]

Evil seems fairly likely, given the company he keeps.

[Nilehus]

He didn't question getting an imp for his familiar, so most likely evil.

[Kish]

Everything he's ever done has been evil.

[Vinsfeld]

As everybody said, he's probably evil.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'd say N/E.

[Justreader]

i also thing is likely that he is evil, but i dont want to discard the neutral posibility without some examination, and i think the things he does are mostly for the purpose of helping his leader (maybe an evil act) or trying to defeat Vaarsuvius. Also, nale wanted an evil opossites theme, and the evil opposite of a true neutral could be (in his mind) another true neutral (but with his motivation)
But, lack of mercy and selfish vehabior can push him in the evil category

Disclaimer: I dont want to justify the morality of any act, just determine the alignment of a character based on his intentions and the alignments of others.

[Math_Mage]

NE: Non-Entity.

[Shred-Bot]

Zz'dtri doesn't look neutral here, that's for sure. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)

[rodneyAnonymous]

Zz'dtri doesn't look neutral here, that's for sure. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)

Neutral people can commit evil acts. V didn't look neutral zapping Kubota either.

There is in-comic evidence that Z is non-good (because holy word affected him), but that's all. He is a dark elf, and they tend to be evil, though. That seems most probable.

[Faldrath]

Another question about Z: do we know why he's so loyal to Nale? Sabine is Nale's lover, and Thog is Thog, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it has ever been mentioned *why* Z has followed Nale around for so long.

I'm curious because Z could very well be the decisive factor in a fight between, say, Nale and Malack, so I'm wondering how far his loyalty goes.

[Tock Zipporah]

He is a dark elf, and they tend to be evil, though. That seems most probable.

Didn't you know? Now they're nothing more than Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)

[Math_Mage]

Didn't you know? Now they're nothing more than Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)

...said the lying liar who lies.

(He's not wrong, though.)

[rodneyAnonymous]

"...and all the children are above average."

:)

[SavageWombat]

He's at least as evil as V is good.

[Shred-Bot]

Neutral people can commit evil acts. V didn't look neutral zapping Kubota either.

There is in-comic evidence that Z is non-good (because holy word affected him), but that's all. He is a dark elf, and they tend to be evil, though. That seems most probable.

Anyone can commit an evil act, but in Z's case we see him doing evil things, not really doing any good things, and working with an evil group towards evil ends. While none of this is strictly conclusive, it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

[Kareasint]

Anyone can commit an evil act, but in Z's case we see him doing evil things, not really doing any good things, and working with an evil group towards evil ends. While none of this is strictly conclusive, it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

Z also seemed to enjoy turning Celia to stone.

[Tiiba]

Zz'dtri doesn't look neutral here, that's for sure. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)

He didn't kill her. And what reason did he have not to kill her? Xykon would kill her, and I think Nale would kill her.

I said "kill her" four times. No, make that five. Hmm...

[Kornaki]

Flesh to stone is so close to killing as to make no difference in this case. That was also his go-to move against Haley - I'm sure if he had a better one-shot move to use against her he would have

[CowardlyPaladin]

Another question about Z: do we know why he's so loyal to Nale? Sabine is Nale's lover, and Thog is Thog, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it has ever been mentioned *why* Z has followed Nale around for so long.

I'm curious because Z could very well be the decisive factor in a fight between, say, Nale and Malack, so I'm wondering how far his loyalty goes.

he/she has certainly stuck with Nale this entire time, and was against Malak leaving him behind. Z seems remarkable neutral to me

[Razanir]

There is in-comic evidence that Z is non-good (because holy word affected him), but that's all. He is a dark elf, and they tend to be evil, though. That seems most probable.

No, the species consists of nothing but Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin.

:nale: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) <-- Hyperlink

[137beth]

"...and all the children are above average."

:)

I took the "all drow are CG" as a joke on the fact that there are many PC races in D&D which are indicated to be "usually evil" (tieflings, drow, gobliniods/orcs), but most players are good-aligned, and so "most" of the "usually evil" races are good, trying to escape their evil kin, if you only sample PCs.
I mean, we already have the fact that the average ability score is 12-13 among PCs, since the average PC is above average:smalltongue:

[Ron Miel]

Flesh to stone is so close to killing as to make no difference in this case.

Don't forget, Nale also had the scroll to undo it. Maybe Z was just trying to temporarily incapacitate her, intending to release her later.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Another question about Z: do we know why he's so loyal to Nale? Sabine is Nale's lover, and Thog is Thog, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think it has ever been mentioned *why* Z has followed Nale around for so long.


Evil people can have friends.

[Fishnet]

Pretty sure this pegs him as evil

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html

[Kornaki]

Nope, holy word hits everybody who isn't good, so he could be neutral

[Caex]

We don't have much of any solid evidence opposing an evil alignment and a fair bit supporting it, but I am also intrigued by the consistent loyal support (seeming to border on friendship) shown to Nale. None of Z's background has been shown, and none of his motivations beyond loyalty to Nale and hatred of V have been seen. I'm hoping the Giant explores this character in some greater detail.

[Bird]

Don't forget that Sabine warned Nale not to trust "any of them," which presumably includes Z. Does she suspect the drow -- who has a relationship of sorts with Qarr, after all -- of something? He may be less loyal than he appears.

[angry_bear]

For the improved familiar feat the character has to be at most, one step away in alignment. So Z can be either, neutral evil, lawful neutral, or the most likely, lawful evil. It would explain his working with Nale, same alignment, and if Nale hired him, Z is obligated to honour his contract.

Pretty sure chaotic evil isn't an option, I might be mistaken on that though...

[ti'esar]

Zz'dtri actually seems more LE to me than Nale does.

[angry_bear]

Zz'dtri actually seems more LE to me than Nale does.

Honestly if it weren't for the fact that Nale said he was lawful evil earlier on, I'd have said he was neutral evil.

[rodneyAnonymous]

For the improved familiar feat the character has to be at most, one step away in alignment. So Z can be either, neutral evil, lawful neutral, or the most likely, lawful evil. It would explain his working with Nale, same alignment, and if Nale hired him, Z is obligated to honour his contract.

Contracts aside, loyalty itself is a lawful trait.

[Macros]

Yeah, lawful evil seems like a safe bet. Not that he says much about himself to begin with... heck, he doesn't say much about anything. But based on what we've seen, I don't think there's any reason to peg him as neutral.

[Liliet]

Honestly if it weren't for the fact that Nale said he was lawful evil earlier on, I'd have said he was neutral evil.
I`d even put Nale close to Chaotic Evil. Yes, he`s a planner, and his plans involve rocket skates and Sabine with scissors, at least on paper. Elan can do plans like that, too. And he has too little self-discipline for a Lawful person, I think.
I mean, he may not be Chaotic, but he`s certainly not Lawful. No matter what he says. Roy told Miko that no-one in their party was Evil, so?


I think that Z is most probably Evil since he is under Nale`s command. However, Nale`s most callous crimes - murders in Cliffport - happened without Z, and Flesh to Stone isn`t really the same as killing. The spell for bringing back certainly is cheaper. So Z can be Neutral too, just to poke fun at his opposite V, who`s the only Neutral person in vir team as well.

I want more of him!

[Malistrae]

I agree with the other posters. S/He is most likely Lawful Evil, although s/he could be Lawful Neutral (since Evil is essentially the selfish alignment and Z never really displayed any extreme selfishness). Though we lack information about his/her background and motivation, so a certain answer is outside of our reach.

[quasit]

Also note that to some effects like a helm of opposite alignement any extreme alignement (LG,CG,LE,CE) counts as opposite of true neutral, so he could be lawfull evil (imp familiar) while still (somehow) adhering to the "evil opposites" theme.

[PBlades]

Don't forget that Sabine warned Nale not to trust "any of them," which presumably includes Z. Does she suspect the drow -- who has a relationship of sorts with Qarr, after all -- of something? He may be less loyal than he appears.

I wonder? Someone should do a character analysis thread for the LG.

[SavageWombat]

It doesn't count as proof, but the fact that he summoned a NE Piscoloth might be a hint that he's NE as well.

[hamishspence]

I think the commentary in Dungeon Crawling Fools described all the members of the Linear Guild as the Order's "evil counterparts".

[Reddish Mage]

I agree with the other posters. S/He is most likely Lawful Evil, although s/he could be Lawful Neutral (since Evil is essentially the selfish alignment and Z never really displayed any extreme selfishness). Though we lack information about his/her background and motivation, so a certain answer is outside of our reach.

There's nothing in the PHB or SRD that says evil is necessarily selfish, nor, for that matter that neutrality cannot be selfish.

The SRD says evil implies hurting, oppression, and killing creatures. Evil creatures may "lack compassion" and will kill if convenient, or, they may be dedicated to an evil deity or purpose. Redcloak is evil but not selfish (he is willing to sacrifice his own comfort, his life, his very soul and the souls of all mortals of the world for the cause of advancing goblin-kind).

[F.Harr]

He didn't kill her. And what reason did he have not to kill her? Xykon would kill her, and I think Nale would kill her.

I said "kill her" four times. No, make that five. Hmm...

Well, Z transmogrophies. That's her skill-set.

Z's always seemed female to me. I don't know why.


I`d even put Nale close to Chaotic Evil. Yes, he`s a planner, and his plans involve rocket skates and Sabine with scissors, at least on paper. Elan can do plans like that, too. And he has too little self-discipline for a Lawful person, I think.
I mean, he may not be Chaotic, but he`s certainly not Lawful. No matter what he says. Roy told Miko that no-one in their party was Evil, so?


I think that Z is most probably Evil since he is under Nale`s command. However, Nale`s most callous crimes - murders in Cliffport - happened without Z, and Flesh to Stone isn`t really the same as killing. The spell for bringing back certainly is cheaper. So Z can be Neutral too, just to poke fun at his opposite V, who`s the only Neutral person in vir team as well.

I want more of him!

Point.

[JavaScribe]

Z's always seemed female to me. I don't know why.
We're reasonably confident Z's male, since people refer to Z as a him and never a her, OOTS Drow females have the usual characteristics, and he's a ripoff of Drizzt, a male Drow.

[F.Harr]

Then, maybe because I'm being contrarian--and I don't even know it.

You're probably right.

[Szarrukin]

Zz'dtri doesn't look neutral here, that's for sure. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)
Well, it's still better than disintegrating a prisoner, Familicide, or torturing a kobold, and yet, V is Neutral. :P

[Arkhosia]

Zzitri may also be chaotic neutral, which, as described alignment wise, neutrality leaning toward the evil end, but not enough to actually be considered fully evil.

[Math_Mage]

Zzitri may also be chaotic neutral, which, as described alignment wise, neutrality leaning toward the evil end, but not enough to actually be considered fully evil.

I parse this as a suggestion that CN is Evil Lite. It isn't. Chaotic Neutral is neutrality leaning towards neutrality on the moral axis, and chaotic leaning towards chaotic on the ethical axis, as the name suggests. It is no more Evil than TN or LN.

On the other hand, you may be trying to suggest that Z is CN leaning Evil, which seems unlikely. We have much better evidence for him being Evil than for him being Chaotic. Of course, we don't have much good evidence on his ethical alignment at all.

[NCoffin]

I think there's a relatively strong case for Z being Evil, and a somewhat weaker one for Lawful. That said, I don't think there's enough to definitively state either.

The far more interesting question, to me, is the loyalty issue. Why is he so willing to work with (and stay with) Nale? Is there something deeper going on? I don't think we have near enough information about Z as a character to make any real claims, but I'm certainly looking forward to finding out more.

Bird brought up Qarr and a potential link to the IFCC. Very possible and very intriguing, as far as I'm concerned.

Also: for angry bear & ti'esar - in regards to Nale, his alignment has already been discussed at some length (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286525).

[Shred-Bot]

Well, it's still better than disintegrating a prisoner, Familicide, or torturing a kobold, and yet, V is Neutral. :P

Being a statue for all eternity rather than merging with the essence of one's home plane could be one of those "fates worse than death" you tend to hear about.

Besides, Miko's gone, so we don't know where V pings on the alignment radar right now.

[hamishspence]

Besides, Miko's gone, so we don't know where V pings on the alignment radar right now.

This post of The Giant's:

V is True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11664984#post11664984)

was posted 18/08/2011: which is around about the time strip 801 went up.

[angry_bear]

Being a statue for all eternity rather than merging with the essence of one's home plane could be one of those "fates worse than death" you tend to hear about.

Besides, Miko's gone, so we don't know where V pings on the alignment radar right now.

Not to mention it's just more efficient than some spells that might kill a target. Granted the opponent still gets a save, but it still seems to get the job done faster than most damage spells. It's entirely possible that he'd come back to the statue and take a rock hammer to it after dealing with his main targets.

[JCAll]

Don't forget that Sabine warned Nale not to trust "any of them," which presumably includes Z. Does she suspect the drow -- who has a relationship of sorts with Qarr, after all -- of something? He may be less loyal than he appears.

Don't trust the Drow is just good all purpose advise.

[137beth]

Don't forget that Sabine warned Nale not to trust "any of them," which presumably includes Z. Does she suspect the drow -- who has a relationship of sorts with Qarr, after all -- of something? He may be less loyal than he appears.
I don't think Z really understands what Qarr is really doing. I interpreted Sabine's "don't trust any of them" to mean that she actually doesn't trust any of them. Z, after all, is just a pawn for the IFCC as far as she is concerned. Sabine also probably doesn't trust Qarr, even though they supposedly have the same goals, simply because he is an imp.

[angry_bear]

I don't think Z really understands what Qarr is really doing. I interpreted Sabine's "don't trust any of them" to mean that she actually doesn't trust any of them. Z, after all, is just a pawn for the IFCC as far as she is concerned. Sabine also probably doesn't trust Qarr, even though they supposedly have the same goals, simply because he is an imp.

She already chose Nale over the IFCC once. In their own weird way, the two do seem fairly devoted to one another. In the very least, she's devoted to him anyway.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html

[Kornaki]

It would explain his working with Nale, same alignment, and if Nale hired him, Z is obligated to honour his contract.


It might be as simple as this.

:nale: "The contract states that you work for me until we have slain my twin brother... and there's no way I'm letting you off the hook like that chump Roy"

[rodneyAnonymous]

:nale: "The contract states that you work for me until we have slain my twin brother... and there's no way I'm letting you off the hook like that chump Roy"

Pretty sure he is actually loyal to Nale, though. For example, Malack wanted to leave Nale behind, and Z told him to wait.

[137beth]

She already chose Nale over the IFCC once. In their own weird way, the two do seem fairly devoted to one another. In the very least, she's devoted to him anyway.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html

Did she though? Or did she just choose Nale over Qarr? We really don't know what she was "suppose" to be doing, since the IFCC's plan is completely mysterious, so there's no way to know if she was actually siding against the IFCC:smalltongue:

[thereaper]

Who is to say that she must choose between them? Her goal might be to try to make both of them happy.

[Copperdragon]

Who is to say that she must choose between them? Her goal might be to try to make both of them happy.

This is very probably what she thinks. She plans on sticking with Nale and still fulfilling her duty to the IFCC. It is not a bad bet, as she cannot know she's in the story where a conflict here is not unlikely, improbable or based on "A lot of bad things and timing coming together" but guaranteed.
From Sabine's point of view there is not much to assume she cannot handle it. She'd even foil Nale's plan to get the gate (without him noticing) if it comes down to Nale vs. IFCC, as she wants Nale, not "Nale gets the Gate".

Sabine thinks she has it under control and that Qarr is just an annoying Imp. Of course she dismisses him.
And even if she thought "It ends badly", what is she supposed to do? Drop Nale over that? Or drop the IFCC right now and cause a problem she "might" not have to deal with should her worries do not come true?
Of course she just "lets things run" for now due to lack of alternatives.

The Drow has no clue on what Qarr is doing and where he real loyalties lie. He's not seeing himself as "just getting used".

[Justreader]

Then we can consider Zz'dtri belongs to some of the 3 evil aligments and is probably not chaotic until new advice? About sabrine, I think she(?) really loves nale, but i don't see how that can interfere with the fiends goal (for now, i mean)
By the way, is very unwise to understimate the imp.
please forget my english

[David Argall]

He didn't kill her. And what reason did he have not to kill her? Xykon would kill her, and I think Nale would kill her.


What reason does he have for turning her into stone? [Ignoring that of showing the LG was nasty, and that Nale presumably had a convoluted plan.] Presumably Nale told him to dispose of the girl, and he cheerfully did. That does not show any desire to spare the lass. There is little enough chance she would be rescued. In most games, nobody shows much interest in rescuing stoned strangers. And as I recall, she would have to make a system shock roll.
Flesh to stone does have the advantage of "save or suck". Z thus gave her no change of getting off any sort of warning or his missing. It was simply reasonable strategy.
Since the other two ladies were killed outright, any plan to get information or such is extremely defective. You have a base 2/3 chance of losing the information. Nor is it apparent that they have information of high value anyway.
Why did the LG have the right scroll? Why not? NPCs often carry random magic, and a kind DM [contradiction, but it happens] will have them carry a really needed item rather than seriously mess up the plot.

So Z is pretty safely classified as evil. Since he is drow, the base presumption is CE, and there isn't that much evidence of other. The presumed contract isn't much. LE are notorious for twisting contracts to mean what they want, and Z is not going to be bound if he does not want to be. More likely Nale's position is... "...according to section 3, subsection D, paragraph 5, sentence J, footnote 20... I don't have to pay you a copper until I am successful. At that point the bonus money kicks in too, so you are going to be rich, if you are loyal to me now." Since Nale can be quite persuasive, that results in a quite loyal minion.
The imp is a suggestion of a more lawful alignment, but not a very strong one. He is a "familiar", not a familiar. Imps aren't very loyal to their masters in any case, but our boy seems to have none at all. Most likely he was send to act as a spy/agent while acting as familiar and our drow wanted a special familiar enough not to quibble about alignment.

[hamishspence]

And as I recall, she would have to make a system shock roll.

OOTS is 3.5e not 2e: no system shock rolls in 3.5.

So Z is pretty safely classified as evil. Since he is drow, the base presumption is CE, and there isn't that much evidence of other.
As it happens, drow are "Usually NE" in MM.

So, if there's a "base presumption" (and beings with atypical alignments crop up a few times in OOTS) it's for that, not CE.

[Nymrod]

Drow are consumed by unfathomable loathing for their surface cousins. They journey to the world above to kill as many elves as they can and exalt those among them who will kill an elf child; while others love bringing a few home so they can torture them for a long while before sacrificing them to Lolth.

I think Zz'ditri's primary motivation right now is destroying V in any way he can because it is a big part of his culture.

Also the fact that he chose to summon a hydroloth instead of anything else does point out to NE.

[Sunken Valley]

Drow are consumed by unfathomable loathing for their surface cousins. They journey to the world above to kill as many elves as they can and exalt those among them who will kill an elf child; while others love bringing a few home so they can torture them for a long while before sacrificing them to Lolth.

I think Zz'ditri's primary motivation right now is destroying V in any way he can because it is a big part of his culture.

Also the fact that he chose to summon a hydroloth instead of anything else does point out to NE.

It was a piscoloth. Hydroloth's look different.

[hamishspence]

Froglike, in fact.

For some strange reason 3e never statted hydroloths out as I recall- checked MotP, Fiend Folio, MM2, etc, and never found them.

[Kish]

So, if there's a "base presumption"
I think Argall's stated "base presumption" leads rapidly to goofiness.

It's not like Belkar is True Neutral, Vaarsuvius is Chaotic Good, or Redcloak is Neutral Evil, after all.

[hamishspence]

Those three have been seen a lot more though- hence a lot more evidence (including Word of Giant in some cases).

[Szarrukin]

Being a statue for all eternity rather than merging with the essence of one's home plane could be one of those "fates worse than death" you tend to hear about.

...it's still better than being a living toilet.