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View Full Version : Restricted Pistols, Maneuvers and Gold! Oh my!



Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-17, 10:51 PM
Just got started a few days ago with a d&d group whose DM a number of you might be familiar with from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280386) topic.

Basically in this campaign three main things happened I was wondering what people here would think of it.

1. Restricted Pistols
This is an advanced tech campaign, so pistols are allowed in.
Note: Before suggested, PF guns are already brought forward and turned down

Now we have a gun using character in this campaign, and the DM ruled that if the character uses the rapid reload feat to make reloading a free action, he may only reload once for 2 shots that turn (assuming they also had the needed BAB), and he then wouldn't be able to TWF them.

Looking at the stats between the two:

{table=header]Weapon|Dmg (M)|Critical|Range|Damage Type
Pistol|1d10|x3|50ft|Piercing
Longbow|1d8|x3|100ft|Piercing
[/table]

Note: Counted as Martial in this campaign, so no proficiency feat to consider for this specific comparison.

Gains one dice size (avg +1 damage) for half the range.
Fair for a specialized build, but then you need to consider the more expensive (and heavy) ammo, the need for Rapid Reload to be able to fire as often as a bow. Plus a bow if composite can add strength to damage where a Strength of 12 makes it do the same as a pistol right there (and the +1 applies to critical's).

Basically, for a futuristic weapon it's already weaker and the DM has nerfed it even further, in a world where it's claimed to be a common weapon.

2. Maneuvers

I entered this game as a Swordsage/Warblade Gestalt (we're all gestalt in this game).
The reason for Gestalt was a rule set in place saying players couldn't play as Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers or Druids so people could:

a) Be marital without being overshadowed
b) Not everyone goes to heavy caster to be relevant

Note: They are mostly sticking with core for simplicity (no rule, just most of the players don't like looking out of book too much in this group), but this rule would of also extended to other major casters like Psions and Artificers.

DM take's this to try to disallow any ability that seems magical in nature... This originally was going to lead to the banning of Gnome and Drow, Paladins losing lay on hands etc. But this was backtracked when argued enough. But when it came to manuevers the DM is ruling stuff like no maneuvers like teleportation or greater invisibility because 'It isn't able to be explain in this world'.

Note: World is powered by wizards, with heavy magic users everywhere and Clerics on demand for healing and resurrections. Magic is not lacking in the realm.

3. Gold

Normally in D&D as you advance in level your overall wealth increases, allowing you to buy better gear etc.

In this campaign we had started at level 8. When we had reached level 9 by the end of the night we had less gold than we started with.

This was for the following reasons.

-Never given treasure after monster fight
-Penalizing players for playing it smart
Ex: Rents out room for night, storm is so strong only one player can actually move outside. We only rent it for one night in case the storm clears the next day. The DM says in this world such big storms are common and clear up very quickly usually. Next day storm is not gone, when we go to check out a room again the only room left costs 400 gold.

Room ends up having 8 beds which we do not need them all so the room is split with some NPCs to try to make the lost money back (gain 600 gp from it). Only to notice next day the NPCs trashed the whole room requiring us to pay thousands of gold in damages.

(Cannot run, slay the inn keeper etc. Well, technically we can but the DM had the city under heavy security and DM fiat so doing so leads to almost instant arrest, loss of all items and gold and probably death).

Xervous
2013-06-17, 11:01 PM
My mouth would be past talking
My legs, already walking
As I packed my dice
Tried to stay nice
And left the group that was flopping.

Gildedragon
2013-06-17, 11:02 PM
1: not a problem. Bring this issue up with the DM, or stick to the longbow, or xbow. Besides as a warblade-swordsage ranged is not your forte.

2: within their prerogative, i assume this would mean a ninja classed character would not be able to use ghost step. if you can get magic items then you're in the clear. Regardless, that means that two schools are restricted; not that big of a problem. Probably swapping swordsage for crusader would be a good choice, so as to minimize overlap or redundancy IIRC

3: this may be a problem, but needn't be the case. Wait a bit longer, and inquire about the lack of treasure. If the encounters are getting to challenging because of gear, do point it out.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-17, 11:05 PM
My mouth would be past talking
My legs, already walking
As I packed my dice
Tried to stay nice
And left the group that was flopping.

And made my own group... with blackjack and hookers.

I'd actually stick around for a while and see what kind of other crazy rules the DM would come up with, then post them on Gitp for the lulz.:smallwink:

Basically Gwazi, I've read threads from you about this guy before and I'm absolutely dumbfounded as to how you still manage to involve yourself in these games. If I had to play with a DM even half as bad as what you've described before, I'd never open another D&D book again.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-17, 11:14 PM
My mouth would be past talking
My legs, already walking
As I packed my dice
Tried to stay nice
And left the group that was flopping.

lol. This makes me laugh. :smallbiggrin:


1: not a problem. Bring this issue up with the DM, or stick to the longbow, or xbow. Besides as a warblade-swordsage ranged is not your forte.

2: within their prerogative, i assume this would mean a ninja classed character would not be able to use ghost step. if you can get magic items then you're in the clear. Regardless, that means that two schools are restricted; not that big of a problem. Probably swapping swordsage for crusader would be a good choice, so as to minimize overlap or redundancy IIRC

3: this may be a problem, but needn't be the case. Wait a bit longer, and inquire about the lack of treasure. If the encounters are getting to challenging because of gear, do point it out.

I'm not the one using guns I should note.
It's another player using them, who is not an optimizer (or that knowledgeable about how d&d works).


And made my own group... with blackjack and hookers.

I'd actually stick around for a while and see what kind of other crazy rules the DM would come up with, then post them on Gitp for the lulz.:smallwink:

Basically Gwazi, I've read threads from you about this guy before and I'm absolutely dumbfounded as to how you still manage to involve yourself in these games. If I had to play with a DM even half as bad as what you've described before, I'd never open another D&D book again.

I would say it's the only group I have... but it's not.
I would say it's the only local group I have... but it's not.

It is the only local group that uses 3.5 however and the only group that has my friends in it that I knew from High School. I think that's the reason I stay in.

Xervous
2013-06-17, 11:24 PM
I've got a strong feeling that the dm is not your friend. Perhaps its one letter away, fiend?

Gildedragon
2013-06-17, 11:40 PM
Mmmm. then enlighten him. Or suggest to the DM to have pistols be at least as powerful as the longbow
oooor just tell the player about the longbow, and don't suggest the DM the pistol matching. Cause it'll nerf bows. Just point them out to the player. Discretely.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-17, 11:48 PM
Mmmm. then enlighten him. Or suggest to the DM to have pistols be at least as powerful as the longbow
oooor just tell the player about the longbow, and don't suggest the DM the pistol matching. Cause it'll nerf bows. Just point them out to the player. Discretely.

It has been pointed out to the player already, and I have already highlighted the issues to the DM. He's taking advantage of the free action rule where it says:

Free actions consume a very small amount of time
and effort, and over the span of the round, their impact is so minor
that they are considered free. You can perform one or more free
actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM
puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. For instance,
calling out to your friends for help, dropping an object, and
ceasing to concentrate on a spell are all free actions.

JusticeZero
2013-06-18, 03:05 AM
So Gwazi, what you need to do is to dump this game and start one of your own that is actually halfway tolerable. You can invite your friends to the game. But seriously I have better things to do with my time than be abused by a hysterically bad GM.

ahenobarbi
2013-06-18, 04:47 AM
1. As already posted it's not really a problem. If people want to use weaker weapons so be it (I'd at least make pistols a simple weapon).

2. Kinda weird. World is full of magic but you can't have it? Smells like DM wanting to railroad you.

3. Ouch. So the DM does enjoy screwing players over.

You have plenty options, what comes to my mind:


Keep playing as it is, because you're happy with it. Most likely not (otherwise you wouldn't start this thread).
Talk with everybody what kind of game they want to play. Chances are other players are unhappy with DMing style too. However you must think yourself if it's worth trying. If you DM is a reasonable person it probably is. However if it's likely to ridicule you because you brought matter up or deny issue at all then it's most likely not worth trying.
Play with new rules. Kill the inn keep. If authorities come after you so be it (remember to ask why they found you 2 rounds after you attacked the poor lad nut couldn't find folks who trashed the room in the first place). You can coordinate with other players. This will most likely end the group.
Leave the group.

Rhynn
2013-06-18, 05:17 AM
Sounds like the DM would be happier running a different game. I'd recommend Conan d20, The Riddle of Steel, Warhammer FRP (1E and 2E are great), or even older editions (or retroclones, see sig) of D&D.

There's no shame to it: many RPGs are better than D&D 3.X.

All of those RPGs do better at no magic (or balancing spellcasters), TROS and WFRP have good rules for firearms, and none of them tie wealth to PC power/ability the way D&D 3.X does.

Alternatively, your DM is going to be bad at running any game, and you need to switch.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-18, 02:52 PM
1. As already posted it's not really a problem. If people want to use weaker weapons so be it (I'd at least make pistols a simple weapon).

2. Kinda weird. World is full of magic but you can't have it? Smells like DM wanting to railroad you.

3. Ouch. So the DM does enjoy screwing players over.

You have plenty options, what comes to my mind:


Keep playing as it is, because you're happy with it. Most likely not (otherwise you wouldn't start this thread).
Talk with everybody what kind of game they want to play. Chances are other players are unhappy with DMing style too. However you must think yourself if it's worth trying. If you DM is a reasonable person it probably is. However if it's likely to ridicule you because you brought matter up or deny issue at all then it's most likely not worth trying.
Play with new rules. Kill the inn keep. If authorities come after you so be it (remember to ask why they found you 2 rounds after you attacked the poor lad nut couldn't find folks who trashed the room in the first place). You can coordinate with other players. This will most likely end the group.
Leave the group.


1. I relize it's not a big issue. But it bugs me how the player is going for a certain concept which is only being made a weaker option because the DM is throwing limitations at it. Kills creativity in my mind if concepts are just made weak by the DM, it's one thing it is was less effective by RAW, less effective due to DM fiat though is another issue in my mind.

2. The DM isn't consistent either.
When he originally tried the "No magic abilities at all" crap it was called out on and highlighted how it would destroy the system all together. So it get's retracted, then tries it again and it get's called out on. So it was retracted again, then in the middle of the campaign it get's called in again.

3. He calls it fun, and it's his idea of a challenge...
My idea of challenge = Tricky challenging scenarios that make you think to get through
His idea of challenge = Stack on the penalties and throw in some Player Control God like characters to keep them in line

Only reason I'm still playing is cause it's the only group that my friends from high school are still in
Wording's a little confusing there for me, I'm reading it as if you're suggesting I try DM'ing. Correct me if I'm wrong though. The Players aren't happy either, but they're even more afraid to cause conflict in the group by addressing such issues. I'm not sure if I'd make the best DM though because I tend to not be able to plan a world, story etc well enough. Plenty of times getting lost and unsure on how to continue it.

Also, if I were to DM, the current DM here probably wouldn't be allowed to play. Not out of spite or anything, but because last time I tried DM'ing something after a campaign of his died due to DM bull****, he blamed me for it and went out of his way to make a character and roleplay in a way that would completely kill the campaign. And if he continue's his DM'ing style to the point he causes the players to switch groups I'm not going to give him another chance to kill the campaign the players switch to.
Killing the inn keeper would be re-winding the session now. The authorities wouldn't be as fast as 2 rounds (maybe), but he's set up the world in a way that cities and such are so big, military is so big and advanced that there is really nothing a player could do to stop them if they wanted. It's the DM's way of controlling the players and keeping them in line.
That is tempting, but like said above. I'd still rather be able to play d&d with my high school friends who still want to have an enjoyable game.

Xervous
2013-06-18, 04:03 PM
His campaign sounds all kinds of railroady, like the kind where you are pressed against an industrial cheese grater in an airtight compartment to ensure that every single atom in your possession is processed and transported through the system, making all the appropriate stops before its final destination.

lordzya
2013-06-22, 10:42 AM
The way to use pistols correctly is like a pirate. Quick draw many pre-loaded ones. Then you can twf with them. Just need to equate it in game balance as the same as throwing weapons.