Druids and Negative Energy

[JET73L]

I'm looking to play a Sorc/Druid. It was originally meant to run toward Mystic Theurge, without the usual Sorceror/Cleric, Sorceror/Dark Cleric, or even Bard/Cleric that I've seen (secondhand), but I ended up getting surprisingly invested in what I expected to be a couple of disposable aspects of the character. I was curious about having a character with Fell Drain (Libris Mortis), and noticed that my original plan (Sorceror develops first-level powers in a windswept mountaintop village in the middle of nowhere, multiclasses into a Druid once he returns to his village one day to find everyone dead of Mysterious Circumstances[copyright pending, BardCo, 1117 CE, Mortal Plane] so he can prevent it from happening to other communities) would let that slot in quite nicely (his Sorcerous abilities manifest with the Fell Drain feat, which is MORE than likely related to said Mysterious Circumstances).
...er, the difficult part is actually that I'm trying to keep this relatively Canon. Nothing hugely 3rd-party or Homebrew. It would be totally easy to do if I did that, but... no.

Now, my concern is that I'm not sure how to fit this in with my Druid multiclass. I've already looked at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110526) and whatever Druid/Negative Energy threads and Google results I could find, but none of the suggestions I found really caught my interest (especially since I'm hoping to play one of the Dragon 311 classes, preferably Winter Warden but maybe a Wind Walker). Here are things I've thought of to try out:

The character is simply so familiar with a "natural" source of negative energy (some sort of rift, maybe?) that he sees it as a part of nature, and it's actually kind of surprising that there aren't fonts of negative energy all over the world. This also explains why he has Fell Drain in the first place.
The druid sees death and undeath as a part of the cycle of life, simply another side of the coin (this is probably the easiest thing to describe, but the hardest thing to justify. The way I understand it, Negative Energy isn't just sucking out a certain amount of energy, it's actually a kind of anti-"life energy", that is, energy which is negative, not a negative amount of regular energy, and /that/ doesn't seem very natural even in D&D, unless you somehow grew up on a Negative Energy Plane).
The druid sees Negative Energy as just another way for life to, ah, find a way. Like hibernation or an endospore kind of thing. If he had simply level-drained everyone in his village to death, they would have survived in a new form instead of turning up as frozen corpses (and since Wights naturally [heh] create other Wights, it's more "natural" than non-replicating undead). If someone dies to death, all they become is food, but if someone "dies" of level drain, they simply metamorphose. I like this idea, but it might be difficult to convince one of the DMs I know to let me play this way (since a lot of people consider Create Undead to be an inherently Evil action no matter the reason).


Does anyone see any way to cover the problems with any of my ideas? Does anyone see any additional problems I hadn't noticed? Am I completely misunderstanding the nature of Negative Energy? I don't consider the undead that would show up to be a problem (I can probably handle them with certain Level 2 and Level 6 Sorceror spells, and maybe a Libris Mortis or Necromancer Handbook feat). I don't want to just play a Necromancer (it's not Divine anyway, so if I decide to Theurge later I'd have to take a bunch of Divine caster levels anyway), and I don't want to play one of the Druid-esqu or ex-druid classes (like Blighter, or one of those Desert classes that can turn into an undead sand-creature or kill people and turn their corpses into undead sand-creatures).

Oh, and I've been implying "male Human" through this post. He doesn't have to be male, that's just the feel I got for him (so if there's some sort of obscure, first-party Death Amazon or Follower of Hel/Hela druid sect, that could work), but I'd strongly prefer to play a human (since I usually play nonhumans and this feels strongly like a Human character, and even though I've heard that Drow and a few other Undercommon-speaking races deal in deathly druids, I don't know if that would solve the Negative Energy problem on its own... and I'm not really into the idea of playing a Drow or similar race right now anyway, which is probably more important).

P.S.: I intend to keep up with this thread as much as I can, but I have to temporarily borrow my little sister's computer. If she's using it I won't be able to respond until she's done with her Spacebook and her Myface and her image boards. Fair warning, and my apologies if that happens to be the case.

[Bromidrosis]

To quote the PH description of druids:

"While druids accept that which is horrific or cruel in nature, they hate that which is unnatural, including aberrations (such as beholders and carrion crawlers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires)."

While I can see what you're trying to say, arguing that undeath is part of nature is hard to justify in the DnD realm. The natural order of things is life->death->afterlife appropriate to your alignment. Bringing back the dead as negative-energy animated revenants isn't really part of the circle of life/revolving door afterlife.

The idea of a "corrupted druid" that grew up in a negative energy-influenced forest is an interesting idea that would also justify their fell drain ability, but that sounds more like a homebrewed class than a traditional druid, particularly since you don't want to go the Blighter route. You could try this: replace the spontaneous summon nature's ally with summon undead (SC), maybe give your companion the undead template, etc. It could be fun, but it would definitely require DM cooperation to put it together.

[JET73L]

You could try this: replace the spontaneous summon nature's ally with summon undead (SC), maybe give your companion the undead template, etc. It could be fun, but it would definitely require DM cooperation to put it together.
That is an idea I could use. I was focusing on the Level Drain from more of a Character perspective than a Class perspective, but if I rework the whole thing to be a little more negative-energy focused... Thanks. I'll have to see if that could work (with the DM and with a kind of character I'd enjoy playing), but that is a potentially good idea.

I'm still open to other suggestions and comments! (Again, especially if I'm wrong about the nature of Negative Energy.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Fell Drain Spell (LM) and/or Lord of the Uttercold (CA) for negative energy effects. You'll need Kn: Planes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) for the latter.

You can go something like Druid 6/ Sorcerer 1/ Arcane Heirophant (RotW), with the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD).

[eggynack]

Take Fell Drain Spell (LM) and/or Lord of the Uttercold (CA) for negative energy effects. You'll need Kn: Planes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) for the latter.

You can go something like Druid 6/ Sorcerer 1/ Arcane Heirophant (RotW), with the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD).
I don't know the specifics, but wouldn't you be better off with three levels of druid, and you make up the difference with mystic theurge levels? I think that's usually how folks do it.

[erikun]

Well, there is such a thing as a Blighter - former Druids who gain power from destroying nature.

However, if you don't want to go that angle, then you can take the angle that death and negative energy are part of the natural order. Druids aren't going to like undead, but they aren't going to like a Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) running around the Prime Material Plane much more. You could argue that it is the character attempting to "put proper balance to the ways of the Druid" as Druids make use of positive energy (Cure Wounds, Heal) but no use of negative.

Just don't try to Fell Drain plants or do anything good for undead, and you should be able to get away with it. You can check with your DM to be 100% sure, though.

[JET73L]

Take Fell Drain Spell (LM) and/or Lord of the Uttercold (CA) for negative energy effects. You'll need Kn: Planes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) for the latter.

You can go something like Druid 6/ Sorcerer 1/ Arcane Heirophant (RotW), with the feat Versatile Spellcaster (RotD).

Lord of the Uttercold looks really neat. I think that if I don't end up using that as part of this character, I'll probably end up playing someone with Lord of the Uttercold at some point! (That will work especially well if I end up going with Winter Warden, for which I'd end up attaching Snowcasting anyway. That seems more like the beginning of a similar yet distinctly different character, as it seems a bit cheesy when addine everything together... So even if I add Lord of the Uttercold to this character, I may go a different direction with the same feat for a future character!)

Not sure about Arcane Heirophant. Eggynack, I intend to get at least four or five levels in Druid (they have some fun things at level four through seven that Mystic Theurge wouldn't get), but thanks for the comment!


Well, there is such a thing as a Blighter - former Druids who gain power from destroying nature.

However, if you don't want to go that angle, then you can take the angle that death and negative energy are part of the natural order. Druids aren't going to like undead, but they aren't going to like a Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) running around the Prime Material Plane much more. You could argue that it is the character attempting to "put proper balance to the ways of the Druid" as Druids make use of positive energy (Cure Wounds, Heal) but no use of negative.

Just don't try to Fell Drain plants or do anything good for undead, and you should be able to get away with it. You can check with your DM to be 100% sure, though.
Yeah. Definitely not going for Blighter. I'd rather be a Cleric or even a a Paladin (despite the extra levels I'd need to take for Mystic Theurge, if I go that route) than an ex-druid, and especially not something or someone like a Blighter (not that there's anything wrong with them, and I feel a liiiittle bit racist, or class-ist, or something, for saying this, but I'm just REALLY uncomfortable with the idea of playing one even in a hypothetical Evil campaign). On that note, I'm DEFINITELY not going to Fell Drain plants XD (Unless they're Negative Energy plants! Somehow :smalltongue:)

The Ravid, too, is a VERY good counterpoint I could use against "positive energy doesn't disrupt the balance of nature". Ravids seem just as unnatural to the Material Plane as any Daemonic, Demonic, Diabolic, or Celestial creature, and far more unbalancing.

[Spuddles]

Arcane Hierophant would probably be good here.

If you can use PF material, empyreal bloodline lets you use wisdome as your sorcerer casting stat.

As for druids using negative energy, I believe they use a few necromancy spells. Forest Razor does 1d10 negative energy damage to fey, plants, and animals. That spell is in the SpC.

[Harrow]

I don't see how Druids are expected to have anything against Negative Energy. It has it's own Elemental Plane! Undead, especially crafted undead, sure those make sense. But that really just means you have to make sure and clean up after yourself. If you kill something via negative levels, make sure you leave the corpse in such a state that it can't become a Wight, e.g. burn it. You probably shouldn't be building an undead army, and you certainly shouldn't 'pollute' nature by leaving a bunch of Wights behind. But that doesn't mean you can't use Fell drain.

Just remember, Necromancy =/= undead

[Komatik]

I'm quite sad that D&D hasn't done a Golgari-style class yet. Would make for a wonderful theme sorcerer variant if you ask me. Homebrewers, can I has Plantcromancer plz?

[JET73L]

If you can use PF material...
I've never been in a campaign that added Pathfinder to D&D, only the other way around. So... *shrug*



...Forest Razor does 1d10 negative energy damage to fey, plants, and animals. That spell is in the SpC.
Strange use for a Druid spell. If you're still watching this thread, are you sure that's not a Blighter-type ex-druid spell? I could see Core-style Druid spells that might deal negative energy damage to Fey, but not to animals and definitely not to plants.



Just remember, Necromancy =/= undead
That is a very, VERY good point! If I go with the "burn bodies, kill wights" plan, I'll have to refine the character's motives for ever using the metamagic of the feat in the first place, but that wouldn't be as difficult as justifying it the other way if the DM isn't enthusiastic about the idea.


Golgari-style class
I looked that up. Black-green Magic: the Gathering? It would be cool if D&D had stats and info to integrate that (especially as a Druid or Druid subclass, which is basically what I've been trying to do here)! :smallbiggrin:

It looks like this thread has been successful for the reason I made it (special thanks to Harrow), but I'll still keep an eye on it in case interesting stuff comes up or someone asks a question :smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

Get your spell compendium and look up 3rd level druid spells. Pretty sure it's there, though google seems to tell me it may be by a different name.
[edit]
after some looking, here's what I've found:

Junglerazer. Druid3, Sorc/Wiz3. 120ft line, 1d10 negative energy damage. Even comes with a sweet picture of some trees getting ****ed up.

Poison is a necromancy spell, Druid 3, as is Contagion. Blight is a 4th level core Druid spell, necromancy, seems to exist just for killing plants.

Druid 5 has Unhallow, which is evil, helps out undead, but is evocation

Druid 2 has Decomposition (wounds fester in spell area for additional damage), Druid 3 has Infestation of Maggots (con damage over time), and Druid 4 has Contagious Touch (spread disease), and Miasma of Entropy (rot nonliving matter), all necromancy spells.

Arguably, any spell that causes ability damage/drain counts as using negative energy, such as the evocation spell Mind Rot.

[JET73L]

If I go with the "burn bodies, kill wights" plan, I'll have to refine the character's motives for ever using the metamagic of the feat in the first place, but that wouldn't be as difficult as justifying it the other way if the DM isn't enthusiastic about the idea.

I meant to compare this (favorably) to Compels, from FATE. Feel free to level drain an enemy a few times, but if that's what does them in and you don't take the time to burn the body, prepare to deal with a game of "Hunt the Wight" or suffer some story/class/alignment consequences.


[spell info snip]
Ah. Yeah, that makes sense now. I was thinking that it was an area effect spell, not a line spell, which does have its uses (like damaging hillbilly trees[cf:Something*Positive] after some mage or malevolent spirit tries to use the forest against you). With all those other spells, it looks like Druids aren't meant to have anything against negative energy (or if they are, then we've got some serious author clash going on), and it's really a question of finding the right context just like any other class with abilities that skirt their restrictions.

[Spuddles]

Druids don't have anything against negative energy, per se. Technically all living creatures are animated by positive energy, including aberrations. But a druid hasn't any problem casting lesser vigor, healing sting, cure light wounds, or heal (can druids cast heal? that'd be badass).

Virtually all the spells I listed, with the exception of a handful of Core ones, lack an [Evil] tag, suggesting that the stuff they're messing around with isn't negative enough to count on the undead scale.

Otyugh Swarm, which summons a swarm of aberrations, is also a druid spell.

As neutral purveyors of balance, I think of all the divine casters, druids have the MOST leeway in terms of using questionable, evil, or contradictory approaches. Fire opposes Water, Death opposes Life, Hunger opposes Plenty. Negative energy is an aspect of death, and that falls mainly within Necromancy. Arguably, druids use necromancy for death magic, for spreading disease, famine, and wasting. Death, but not undeath.

Enervation that makes wights would probably fall afoul of most druids' philosophies, but using negative energy to drain foes isn't antithetical to druids, unless all you play are treehugging hippy Elhonna worshippers. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. From dust we came, to grave we go.

[Clistenes]

The Wasteland Druid Prestige Class from AEG's sourcebook Undead fits your character perfectly, but you would have to become Neutral Evil.

The Wasteland Druid comes to believe that undead and negative energy are part of the natural order and gets Rebuke Undead, access to the Death, Healing, Destruction and Fire Domain's spells, learns to take undead shapes in addition to animal shapes, gets an undead animal companion and several useful immunities.

So you get a load of power in exchange of being a crazy creep...