OOTS #894 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[SavageWombat]

Wow - Timing!

Nice joke there too.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[horngeek]

...wait what.

[Warren Dew]

Can't say I'm surprised.

Of course, Girard might be lying.

[Domino Quartz]

Oh, wow. The gate is a lie :D.

[Amidus Drexel]

This is brilliant! :smallcool:

[Requiem_Jeer]

Wait, that wasn't nearly a sufficient analysis of the rock. If it was, say, five foot-thick stone encasing the gate, those divinations wouldn't do anything, assuming you have also protected the gate with a means to stop locate object, like the interior of the stone being coated in lead, for a mundane method.

In short, it's a bluff.

[TaiLiu]

Ah! How wonderfully fiendish of our dragon-blooded spellcaster!

[SavageWombat]

Wait, that wasn't nearly a sufficient analysis of the rock. If it was, say, five foot-thick stone encasing the gate, those divinations wouldn't do anything, assuming you have also protected the gate with a means to stop locate object, like the interior of the stone being coated in lead, for a mundane method.

In short, it's a bluff.

All too true. What level is the liar? One level higher than you.

[bibliophile20]

Oh, jeeze. Perfect. Nale looks like he's ready to pop a blood vessel.

[Whiffet]

Wow, good thing I decided to check right before bed.

And I laughed hard. :smallbiggrin: Thanks, Rich!

EDIT: Wait, hold on. Malack just cast True Seeing. And now they're headed back out to where the Order is.

Oh dear.

[internisus]

Hmm... Why is Nale in such a hurry to get back outside? After coming all that way and getting past both the big dream illusion and the green trap circle, I'd at least take five to examine the room.

On the other hand, perhaps it's occurred to him that they have confined themselves to a small space which is easily surrounded.

[Byzantine2]

...Yep. Definitely appropriate.

[shamgar001]

So that's two gotcha's Girard has pulled, assuming this one is legitimate.

Now I'm wondering, since Xykon is following Serini's coordinates, if Girard lied to her too.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I will refuse to believe words written in stone! Refuse I say!

[SaintRidley]

Loving it.

Expecting him to walk back out right into a face full of Xykon.

[RustyVenture]

True seeing is going to be a problem for that illusion Elan put up.

[Wraithlord]

And yet, the gate is actually inside that block of stone :smallbiggrin:. But seriously, I'm rather surprised Girard did this. Mainly because unless his remains aren't buried at the top of the pyramid, why would he have died at a location that wasn't really where the gate actually was? Odd.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Of course. Of course. We all suspected it, but...Oh my god. I just started laughing and nearly woke everyone up. Kudos to you Giant, yet again. I've been endlessly refreshing my page the past several days waiting for this.

Unless, of course, it's still in the pyramid, but somewhere else! Say, wherever V's heading right now.

[Byzantine2]

You know, I wouldn't doubt there are dozens of pyramids in there, all trapped and invisible. And the gate is in none of them.

[Wraithlord]

True seeing is going to be a problem for that illusion Elan put up.

:smalleek: The Order is going to be in trouble the instant Malack walks back out that door...

[Aadst1]

OH MY GOD!!! I laughed so hard I woke up my wife!!!

WELL played, Giant! WELL played!

[Byzantine2]

And yet, the gate is actually inside that block of stone :smallbiggrin:. But seriously, I'm rather surprised Girard did this. Mainly because unless his remains aren't buried at the top of the pyramid, why would he have died at a location that wasn't really where the gate actually was? Odd.

Illusion is all about misdirection. I would call that rather misleading.

[jmucchiello]

When did Nale acquire a walking shrimp minion? And who brings a shrimpman into a desert?

EDIT: Oh, the monster summoning.

Oh, and I don't believe anything written down in the pyramid. Not at all.

[Gift Jeraff]

Dun dun dun?

[ThreadKiller]

I know this is going to be posted a million times, but the last panel made me laugh. Love the reference! :smallbiggrin:

[Byzantine2]

:smalleek: The Order is going to be in trouble the instant Malack walks back out that door...

Does Malak care enough to say, though? I mean, I doubt he considers them a threat, and he just wants this mission over with.

[3WhiteFox3]

I don't buy that it's not here. It just doesn't make much sense. I definitely think that it's a bluff to get people to turn around. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Girard did indeed make several false pyramids and put this sign in all of them, including the one holding the real gate just to confuse people.

[undead hero]

When did Nale acquire a walking shrimp minion? And who brings a shrimpman into a desert?

Oh, and I don't believe anything written down in the pyramid. Not at all.

Looks like a psionic minster that drains int... I forget the name of it... But it was summoned.

Also... Fantastic strip!

[DM=DickMove]

Wait, that wasn't nearly a sufficient analysis of the rock. If it was, say, five foot-thick stone encasing the gate, those divinations wouldn't do anything, assuming you have also protected the gate with a means to stop locate object, like the interior of the stone being coated in lead, for a mundane method.

In short, it's a bluff.

or, just a thin sheet of lead because detect magic and locate object are blocked by it and true seeing cant be used to look through walls.

[Toper]

I wonder if Malack will decide to tell Nale about Roy, Haley, and Belkar when he sees them behind the illusion on the way out. With his enmity for Nale, my guess is no (and Durkon's last request might play a role as well). He could easily tell vampire-Durkon to be quiet (preventing him from speaking up about detected magic).

It's also perhaps worth noting that Malack may not be as certain as Nale that the Gate is elsewhere -- he looks at the block a bit longer, at least.

[DukeGod]

When did Nale acquire a walking shrimp minion? And who brings a shrimpman into a desert?

EDIT: Oh, the monster summoning.

Oh, and I don't believe anything written down in the pyramid. Not at all.

It's a summoned demon

Edit: Link to the relevant strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html)

[3WhiteFox3]

Does Malak care enough to say, though? I mean, I doubt he considers them a threat, and he just wants this mission over with. Would he see any good reason to attack them now? I mean, from their point of view (at least, as far as we know), the mission is over. He may not see it as worth it.

[Alleran]

Somewhere out there, Girard's ghost has this (http://images.wikia.com/fantendo/images/3/3e/Troll_Face.png) expression on his face. And he is laughing.

[ThePhantom]

Heh, "Sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle"
Classic. :smallwink:

[Frosty]

I wonder where the gate is...this is awesome.

[Ron Miel]

True seeing is going to be a problem for that illusion Elan put up.

Malack might see through it, but he promised Durkon not to hurt the other members of OOTS. He won't give them away.

And we still don't know who is Sending to Haley.

[Ezekiel]

"This isn't the gate you're looking for...." Ahahahahahahahaha!!!! :smallbiggrin:

Excellent strip Giant

[Douglas]

Possible slight continuity error: Durkon doesn't prepare Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html). That was pre-vampirism, of course, but unless the vampiric transformation itself allows changing spells prepared on the spot I don't think it's been long enough for Durkon to have had a chance to prepare it.

[jere7my]

It's a summoned demon

A daemon, technically. (Or yugoloth.)

[R_G_R]

Ah... Girard you wonderful bastard :smallbiggrin:
Though right know I would be worried about Xykon... :smalleek:

[Adama]

Wait, that wasn't nearly a sufficient analysis of the rock. If it was, say, five foot-thick stone encasing the gate, those divinations wouldn't do anything, assuming you have also protected the gate with a means to stop locate object, like the interior of the stone being coated in lead, for a mundane method.

In short, it's a bluff.

Nah. For a group of supremely paranoid people, it would make sense to make those preparations... and then have a completely different pyramid that you based your operation out of. The gate is probably in some remote part of the canyon where no one ever goes, that's designed to look like just another rock wall, even to spells that see through illusions.

[Stabbey]

Ah ha ha! Well, I can't say that this possibility hadn't crossed my mind. That doesn't make it any less hilarious, though. Gotta love Illusionists.

[Ghosty]

Time to review Haley's explanation on when to expect a double bluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html)

[Math_Mage]

Possible slight continuity error: Durkon doesn't prepare Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html). That was pre-vampirism, of course, but unless the vampiric transformation itself allows changing spells prepared on the spot I don't think it's been long enough for Durkon to have had a chance to prepare it.

Good point. Maybe he came back with no spells but the equivalent of a day's rest? Since he was dead and all?

[Adama]

I wonder where the gate is...this is awesome.

The corpse they used "Speak with Dead" on said that the rift lay between Girard's Buttcheeks... which I'm going to bet means that there are a pair of small hills that got nicknamed Girard's Buttcheeks.

[WindStruck]

MUAHAHA I just posted something like that a day or two ago!! :smallcool:

The final trick will not be an illusion. It will be some completely random stranger they captured and kept alive for the sole purpose of doing one thing: as soon as anyone comes to free him he is to say, "I'm sorry but your gate is in another ziggurat!" If he doesn't do this, his head will explode due to a magic curse placed on him.

Of course, it will be the absolute truth, as the real gate is hidden in an extremely small, nearby one buried under 400 feet of sand, which would be close enough for the prophecy about which gate Xykon will visit next to be true.

Score! Erm.. well, close enough. Same difference between a giant sign and a prisoner. They get the same message across! :smalltongue:

[Toper]

Malack might see through it, but he promised Durkon not to hurt the other members of OOTS. He won't give them away.
Well, he never actually promised anything, and in fact said that helping Belkar was his "final token to the Durkon that was" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html). He also made no complaints (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) about the plan to slaughter the remaining Order, so he may feel that he's done enough by having once offered them the opportunity to flee.

I imagine he would reveal them for Tarquin, if he were there, but not for Nale.

[jere7my]

The corpse they used "Speak with Dead" on said that the rift lay between Girard's Buttcheeks... which I'm going to bet means that there are a pair of small hills that got nicknamed Girard's Buttcheeks.

That was a joke. "Where does Napoleon keep his armies? In his sleevies!" Same joke. It does not suggest Napoleon had a secret army camp called "Sleevies."

[gallagher]

Well, he never actually promised anything, and in fact said that helping Belkar was his "final token to the Durkon that was" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html). He also made no complaints (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) about the plan to slaughter the remaining Order, so he may feel that he's done enough by having once offered them the opportunity to flee.

I imagine he would reveal them for Tarquin, if he were there, but not for Nale.

Malack knows that Tarquin wants Nale to fail and Elan to succeed. Good Son v Bad Dad is a much better story than Bad Son Kills Good Son Then Tries to Overthrow Bad Dad but Gets Crushed Because He Lacks Foresight.

Malack will probably stand in Nale's way soemhow before meeting up with Tarquin, and not helping him by doing exactly what he says (back outside!) might be a fun way to play with his food, so to speak

[HylianKnight]

Wait, what was Malack about to say before he got cut off?

He's implying he taught Nale something. But Malack is a Cleric while Nale is a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer. So what would he have taught him?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Gotta make a guess now:
The Gate is inside the big box. Girard's most Epic Bluff.

[eusticepious]

This comic is one of the reasons i am losing interest in oots. Cliff hangers like what is going to happen when Malak walks into the next room and the slow pace of plot resolutions are annoying. I know the giant likes to surprise readers, but do we really need another dungeon crawl - seems repetitive and pointless. Couldnt the last frame show Malak's decision.

More and more i want to skip reading for a long while and then maybe catch up later.

Disenchantedly yours,
E.P.

[Adama]

That was a joke. "Where does Napoleon keep his armies? In his sleevies!" Same joke. It does not suggest Napoleon had a secret army camp called "Sleevies."

Except that Durkon explicitly said that the corpse can't lie. And it would be in hilariously good keeping with the premise that the exact words the corpse spoke would have to be true.

[homeslice]

It seems somewhat obvious that an illusionist would do something like this.

[karkus]

Oh noes! Malack has True Seeing active now, and could see right through the wall! :smalleek:

But is he still going to keep his promise to Alive Durkon and not give them away...? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Whiffet beat me to the first part of my post...

EDIT2: Ron Miel and Toper beat me to the second part...

The problem with popular forums like this one is that by the time you write up a response, 20 others have already popped up!

[Kornaki]

And what, exactly, did Malack teach Nale? Based on the large emphasis placed on "things that are randomly cut off are ridiculously important!" I can only assume this will be as well.

Technically speaking Durkon and Malack never said whether they spotted anything with their spells, but I guess if they did they would have probably said something.

I agree that Malack is not so convinced that this isn't the gate. And Nale seems to be overreacting seeing how their strategy once they found the gate was to...? Sit there and wait for Xykon? It's not clear what he thought was going to happen

[jere7my]

Except that Durkon explicitly said that the corpse can't lie. And it would be in hilariously good keeping with the premise that the exact words the corpse spoke would have to be true.

It's not a lie. Girard's rift—meaning the cleft between his buttocks—is exactly where the corpse said it was. It's not the corpse's fault that Roy didn't specify which rift he meant.

[karkus]

Wait, what was Malack about to say before he got cut off?

He's implying he taught Nale something. But Malack is a Cleric while Nale is a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer. So what would he have taught him?

To look before you blunder into a trap (the floor zapper).

[nonamearisto]

It's got to be a bluff. There's no way the entire Draketooth family would spend their lives guarding a fake.

And, I don't know if there is room in this book for a second pyramid with the real gate in it, and if it was squeezed in somehow... it would really be a lot more filler than we've ever gotten from this comic before.

[Nilehus]

Girard, you magnificent bastard.

Still, I doubt the Gate is actually somewhere else. The family upstairs wouldn't have left the gate completely unattended, so it has to be somewhere nearby, at least.

[Aadst1]

You know, in regards to the actions of the Draketooth clan, I believe we are neglecting the knowledge of the OOTS's most charismatic member: Mr. Scruffy! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

[Hamiltonz]

Brilliant :-)

[Mr.Bookworm]

My personal guess is that everyone is still trapped inside of the illusion.

Girard's super-epic-boss illusion seemed waaaaay too easy to deal with. It would make sense, though, if there was another layer to the illusion; an illusion of the world exactly as it is in reality, but with the gate missing.

It certainly seems like the kind of thing a tricksy paranoid illusionist would do.

[Holy_Knight]

Wait, what was Malack about to say before he got cut off?

He's implying he taught Nale something. But Malack is a Cleric while Nale is a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer. So what would he have taught him?

And what, exactly, did Malack teach Nale?
I think he taught him in the general sense, as in Malack was Nale's tutor while he was growing up.

[skaddix]

Lol Could be a Bluff, will be able to tell assuming Xykon actually has the right location he will port in.

[Gift Jeraff]

We're being shown the piscodaemon's fantasy. S/he's getting paid by the hour, so s/he wants this to be as prolonged as possible.

[fluke1993]

:smalleek: The Order is going to be in trouble the instant Malack walks back out that door...
If it was the drow casting true seeing I think they might have a problem, but given his promise to Durkon, it's possible that he won't say a word.

Also I'm with everyone else who thinks V is headed right for the gate, at witch point Evil Inc. (using Impy to spy on V) will invoke their 45 minutes of fun and do TerriNastytm things with the gate.

edit: Holy crap I failed my spot check to notice the ninjas hiding in front of my face.

Also I get the feeling that Nale suddenly figured out why Tarquin is doing what ever it is he's busy doing top side.

[Angulf]

Thank you Nale! But your Gate is at another Piramid!

Awesome job, Giant.

[Vectner]

Wait, how many pyramids were there?

[Nilehus]

My personal guess is that everyone is still trapped inside of the illusion.

Girard's super-epic-boss illusion seemed waaaaay too easy to deal with. It would make sense, though, if there was another layer to the illusion; an illusion of the world exactly as it is in reality, but with the gate missing.

It certainly seems like the kind of thing a tricksy paranoid illusionist would do.

If it weren't for the Sending that Haley got, I'd agree with you. An Illusion powerful enough could get that kind of detail in, but I don't think Xykon was even crossing Haley's mind at the time.

That, and the best bluff is the simplest one. :smalltongue: Girard was worried, above all, about Soon and his paladins. This kind of bluff would work perfectly on the 'fascist paladin lackeys' that Girard thought Soon had. And Nale, of course.

[Kornaki]

Wait, how many pyramids were there?

We have no idea, they went into the first one they ran into (remember it was invisible)

[BobVosh]

Huh, wasn't expecting that.

[Caex]

A part of me has been convinced that this would be the case, but with all the drama that part had been pushed back and covered up. Awesome execution.

[Adama]

It's not a lie. Girard's rift—meaning the cleft between his buttocks—is exactly where the corpse said it was. It's not the corpse's fault that Roy didn't specify which rift he meant.

That's theoretically possible to justify, yes. But locating the rift, and the gate, in between two hills nicknamed Girard's Buttcheeks is much, much funnier. And if we've seen anything, it's that OOTS runs on what's funny, rather than what's possible.

[Haluesen]

That's theoretically possible to justify, yes. But locating the rift, and the gate, in between two hills nicknamed Girard's Buttcheeks is much, much funnier. And if we've seen anything, it's that OOTS runs on what's funny, rather than what's possible.

I gotta say that this is just brilliant. :smallbiggrin: Probably won't be, but it's a funny idea.

So wow everyone. What a twist! :smalltongue: I'm also putting my bets on it being another trick, of a sort. I think the gate is still in the pyramid, but they didn't look everywhere. They just took the most dramatic way they saw. As Haley spoke, "Obvious door is obvious".

[karkus]

You know, in regards to the actions of the Draketooth clan, I believe we are neglecting the knowledge of the OOTS's most charismatic member: Mr. Scruffy! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

The Giant said that that was from Z, though...

[Kornaki]

Being elsewhere in the pyramid has a nice grey area between double bluff and straight truth. If the person reading the sign thinks "hah he's bluffing!" then they'll probably just search in that little gazebo area forever. If they think it's the truth, they leave the pyramid. So the safest bet is to put the gate somewhere else in the pyramid

[Wanderer]

A guess...

...So then there's a pyramid inside the giant block, and the rift is inside it, then?

Message said "another pyramid." Didn't say anything about the pyramid being somewhere else. A recursive pyramid is still "another" pyramid.

[Flame of Anor]

I'm inclined to believe the message (no buttcheeks are apparent in this room), but I think we're going to have a big fight before long. Team Evil has just got to show up soon.

[Living Oxymoron]

Hey, Tarquin, I see what you're doing.

[Anarion]

Wait, what if the wall is just a real wall? It would appear as is to True Seeing, and if, say, something were on the other side of a thick wall, like Girard's Gate, neither detect magic nor locate object would pick it up due to being blocked by the thick walls.

It would be terribly devious for the illusion dungeon's final puzzle to simply be a normal physical barrier to the thing in question.


Being elsewhere in the pyramid has a nice grey area between double bluff and straight truth. If the person reading the sign thinks "hah he's bluffing!" then they'll probably just search in that little gazebo area forever. If they think it's the truth, they leave the pyramid. So the safest bet is to put the gate somewhere else in the pyramid

This works too, and makes me think that V might be the one who ends up stumbling upon the gate.

[Kornaki]

Nale is so eager to leave that room that part of me thinks the trap enchanted him to make him want to leave it or something.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, he only really tears into Malack after going through the trap. It might just be his ego lashing out, but maybe there was something more to it than I originally thought

[Demolator]

I'm really hoping it was a bluff like a lot of people are saying. However, even if it wasn't, it was extremely satisfying to see Nale fail in such a way.

[One Step Two]

I laughed, loudly. Enjoyable comic, I loved the twist, and Nale's expression is priceless.

I have my theories though.


The one thing both Team Evil and the Linear Guild currently lack is both Bard and Trap-finder. For all the power of magic, none of those classes have Trap finding, or search as a class skill.
So I am betting on a bluff. A search check aided by Bardic music might turn something up.
However the Order has more immediate things to worry about.

[Forikroder]

Wait, what if the wall is just a real wall? It would appear as is to True Seeing, and if, say, something were on the other side of a thick wall, like Girard's Gate, neither detect magic nor locate object would pick it up due to being blocked by the thick walls.

It would be terribly devious for the illusion dungeon's final puzzle to simply be a normal physical barrier to the thing in question.



This works too, and makes me think that V might be the one who ends up stumbling upon the gate.

it could even be just a giant cube with a staircase underneath or the gate could be hidden down one of the other passages

[AvangionQ]

Wait, that wasn't nearly a sufficient analysis of the rock. If it was, say, five foot-thick stone encasing the gate, those divinations wouldn't do anything, assuming you have also protected the gate with a means to stop locate object, like the interior of the stone being coated in lead, for a mundane method.

In short, it's a bluff.

I was thinking the exact same thing ... a disintegrate spell would be in order here ...

[Aadst1]

The Giant said that that was from Z, though...

Ahhh, I was not aware of that, thank you. At the time, I was merely a casual OOTS reader, and not a true addict! (One who hits F5 5 times a day!)

[Bird]

If the message is the truth, then it's possible that Team Evil are at the gate, and have been for some time already. Imagine if they'd already cast the goddamn ritual--!

[jere7my]

I'm inclined to believe the message (no buttcheeks are apparent in this room)The corpse already satisfied the terms of the question. Girard's rift was, indeed, located between Girard's buttcheeks, for one perfectly valid interpretation of the word "rift". We don't need to look for something called "Girard's Buttcheeks."

[Malek2991]

I normally don't nitpick, but didn't Durkon say he didn't have Detect Magic prepared at the beginning of this arc (edit: yup I was right on comic 847)... so he either lied to Roy or it has been longer than Roy thought and Durkon's repreped his spells for the day.

[One Step Two]

If the message is the truth, then it's possible that Team Evil are at the gate, and have been for some time already. Imagine if they'd already cast the goddamn ritual--!

Yeah, it's very worrisome.

But it raises the question: With Girards level of Paranoia, would he have told Senri the real location of the gate?

[Forikroder]

If the message is the truth, then it's possible that Team Evil are at the gate, and have been for some time already. Imagine if they'd already cast the goddamn ritual--!

extremely unlikely considering that Hinjo only jsut now got the word to the OoTS, considering all the spells redcloak already had to burn theyre probably gonna need a good 8 hours on the astral plane reinforcing the tomb (at least so tehy can gate back home)


But it raises the question: With Girards level of Paranoia, would he have told Senri the real location of the gate?

if he didnt trust Serini then his trap in the Desert wouldnt ahve warned her that Soon had come calling i think its safe to say Xykon has the real coordinates, but that doesnt mean hell ahve an easy time finding the gate even if he knows which pyramid the gate is under he doesnt have specific directions to it

[DaggerPen]

I literally just clapped my hand over my mouth and laughed until I couldn't breathe.

Girard. Oh, Girard. You magnificent b******.

[Ted The Bug]

Hey, Tarquin, I see what you're doing.

I don't. What is it?

[Commander672]

I bet, after all the magical illusions, this one is the simplest trick of all:

A giant stone box with the gate on the inside. No magic beyond maybe some sort of Locate Object-defeating veil.

It's what I would do, if the DnD rules of those spells permit it. After all the booby traps few would suspect the simple tactic of walling it off. But they would expect a grand and overly elaborate deception such as an entire fake pyramid with traps and guardians.

[jere7my]

That's theoretically possible to justify, yes. But locating the rift, and the gate, in between two hills nicknamed Girard's Buttcheeks is much, much funnier. And if we've seen anything, it's that OOTS runs on what's funny, rather than what's possible.

De gustibus. I think interpreting the corpse's answer as an "up yours" from beyond the grave is much, much funnier. Turning it into a legitimate clue of some sort, even if it's misleading, detracts from that.

[Joseph_Lavode]

It's got to be a bluff. There's no way the entire Draketooth family would spend their lives guarding a fake.

I agree, but it would be interesting if Girard was so paranoid he didn't even tell his own family that it was a fake.

I don't think that, though. I'm guessing it's somewhere else in the complex, with this as an attempt to get invaders to leave and search the rest of the desert.

[Forikroder]

I agree, but it would be interesting if Girard was so paranoid he didn't even tell his own family that it was a fake.

I don't think that, though. I'm guessing it's somewhere else in the complex, with this as an attempt to get invaders to leave and search the rest of the desert.

its possible that while they were living in this pyramid, the gar was in a pyramid filled with so many deathtraps, illusions, phantasms and such that living in it would be completely impossible so they didnt through neccesity

and it would help keep it safe that way even if someone manages to tail a draketooth they dont lead them straight to the gate

[Porthos]

Even if the Gate is buried in concrete in that block. Or even if it is somewhere else in the pyramid, I think this is how I feel right now.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/kaneklapqo6.gif

Just.... Gorgeous.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Hmm... Why is Nale in such a hurry to get back outside? After coming all that way and getting past both the big dream illusion and the green trap circle, I'd at least take five to examine the room.

On the other hand, perhaps it's occurred to him that they have confined themselves to a small space which is easily surrounded.

The latter might be true, but what I think worries him more is the fact that he is now disposable, and that his knowledge of the Gate's location is wrong, then he might just get killed by the vampire.

[Porthos]

Girard the Ultimate Troll?

I think he might just be. :smallamused:

[Darthteej]

I wish I hadn't scrolled down so fast and seen it...excellent nonetheless.

[One Step Two]

extremely unlikely considering that Hinjo only jsut now got the word to the OoTS, considering all the spells redcloak already had to burn theyre probably gonna need a good 8 hours on the astral plane reinforcing the tomb (at least so tehy can gate back home)

I agree with this now that you mention it. Even with the delay Niu may have taken sending it, and the time it takes for Hinjo to get it sent. Redcloak burned a lot of spells, and it would take a day or two to fully enchant his tomb.


if he didnt trust Serini then his trap in the Desert wouldnt ahve warned her that Soon had come calling i think its safe to say Xykon has the real coordinates, but that doesnt mean hell ahve an easy time finding the gate even if he knows which pyramid the gate is under he doesnt have specific directions to it

Did the trap warn Senri? I don't think it did, I think the "us" Girard refers to is his family.

[OctoberRaven]

What if the gate was actually directly under Girard's coffin? That would justify them hiding it under his statue like they did.

[Porthos]

You know... I just realized something. Even if the Gate wasn't in this pyramid (which we can't say one way or the other), Girard's Clan would always know if it had fallen.

Because they were constantly monitoring it via the Color Room near the lunch hall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

I.

I still think it is buried under that slab. But that color wheel gives me a slight pause. Why have a monitoring system for your own Gate when you can just pop downstairs for a look?

If this really was a troll by Girard this whole time, I will be in utter awe. :smallcool:

[WindStruck]

Gotta make a guess now:
The Gate is inside the big box. Girard's most Epic Bluff.

Probably this. Most detecty spells can't penetrate more than a foot or two of stone. It's probably pretty idiotic of Nale to just give up so easily... even if it's unlikely there is a gate inside or under that giant block, why not leave until you're absolutely certain?

[Porthos]

Probably this. Most detecty spells can't penetrate more than a foot or two of stone. It's probably pretty idiotic of Nale to just give up so easily... even if it's unlikely there is a gate inside or under that giant block, why not leave until you're absolutely certain?

Does Z have Disintergrate? Nale might not have a way of getting in that big hunk of rock.

Besides, I tend to think Tarquin, when he hears this story, is going to be a bit more skeptical of all of this.

[Obscure Blade]

Hmm... Why is Nale in such a hurry to get back outside?
I suspect he's worried that there's about to be a big explosion or the ceiling will grow spikes, then fall and squish them. Troll-and-kill is in Girard's style.

[Halleflux]

Nevermind.

[B. Dandelion]

Did the trap warn Senri? I don't think it did, I think the "us" Girard refers to is his family.

"Both her and us." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)

[Forikroder]

I agree with this now that you mention it. Even with the delay Niu may have taken sending it, and the time it takes for Hinjo to get it sent. Redcloak burned a lot of spells, and it would take a day or two to fully enchant his tomb.



Did the trap warn Senri? I don't think it did, I think the "us" Girard refers to is his family.

i believe it specifically said her and us

[ti'esar]

I think it's a double-bluff. But it's awesome either way.

[SaintRidley]

Unless I'm screwing something up. I probably am.

You don't get a will save to disbelieve Elan's illusion of a wall unless you try to interact with the wall.

[DaggerPen]

Being elsewhere in the pyramid has a nice grey area between double bluff and straight truth. If the person reading the sign thinks "hah he's bluffing!" then they'll probably just search in that little gazebo area forever. If they think it's the truth, they leave the pyramid. So the safest bet is to put the gate somewhere else in the pyramid

Very much agreed. I have a feeling that the theories about the Gate being totally inaccessible except by passwall and Vaarsuvius stumbling across it by accident have a lot of merit...

[Porthos]

Here's the thing. Is it possible that Girard was SO paranoid that he had a decoy pyramid staffed with some of his family while another pyramid (with more of his family?) hid the real Gate?

Is someone really that paranoid?

I'd love to say "No." My gut says "No."

But I can't get rid of that nagging feeling.... :smalltongue:

[Saturosian]

Guys, guys! Can we start a new meme here, with the gate in another pyramid block?!

No? ...Okay...

I have enjoyed all of the strips in the latter part of this arc, but this is the first one to make me laugh out loud, and hard, since, well, since Durkon left us.

ADDENDUM: So, is this a bluff, and the gate is elsewhere in the pyramid (or encased in stone? Is that possible, or would the rift, like, I dunno, unmake the stone?) Or was the original message a double bluff? And what about the coordinates Serini had (and Xykon has?) are we going to show up at a dungeon *again*, just to find Xykon already in control of another gate and preparing unspeakable evil? My guess is that the pyramid is real, and the stone is simply a bluff, but I just don't know anymore...

[Porthos]

Very much agreed. I have a feeling that the theories about the Gate being totally inaccessible except by passwall and Vaarsuvius stumbling across it by accident have a lot of merit...

I like this idea as well.

I also like the idea, should he show up, of V casting disintergrate on this hunk of stone just to be sure. :smalltongue:

[Bird]

As has been mentioned, it does seem like Nale is in an awful rush. About the other reactions, though:

--Z looks like he's ready to leave in panel 6, before Nale gives any order. He seems quick to give up, too.

--Malack looks annoyed at the stone in the last panel, and he does want to hasten the end of a confrontation he deems "tedious," but is there any chance that he might see something without telling Nale?

[Rowan Mikaio]

Technically speaking Durkon and Malack never said whether they spotted anything with their spells, but I guess if they did they would have probably said something.


I disagree. I don't think that Malack has any reason at the moment to admit that Nale was successful at anything.

Also, I want to point out that Girard was always under the assumption that it would be SOON who came to find Girard's gate, so I wonder if the double-bluff is that this slab of stone refers to "your gate" and therefore Soon's gate, rather than Girard's gate, being elsewhere. Of course, then we run into the problem that Azure City was not a pyramid, but whatever.

[137beth]

That was simply...perfect:smallbiggrin:

[wingnutx]

Wait, hold on. Malack just cast True Seeing. And now they're headed back out to where the Order is.

Oh dear.

Perhaps he'll keep quiet about it.

[AnvilMAn]

its been a long time since i did the P&P thing but how exactly did durkon cast detect magic when he said in a previous strip he didnt have it prepared? can somebody more familiar with the recent rules explain it to me?

[Oakianus]

I will refuse to believe words written in stone! Refuse I say!

So you're saying that you're not gonna wait...

:smallcool:

...for an engraved invitation?

[gorocz]

I don't buy that it's not here. It just doesn't make much sense. I definitely think that it's a bluff to get people to turn around. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Girard did indeed make several false pyramids and put this sign in all of them, including the one holding the real gate just to confuse people.

You know, if there was some sort of magical gate inside, i would've bet it's a fake... With this, I don't know what to think anymore...


It's not a lie. Girard's rift—meaning the cleft between his buttocks—is exactly where the corpse said it was. It's not the corpse's fault that Roy didn't specify which rift he meant.

Also, the rift was never Girard's to begin with. Only the gate was technically his.


A guess...

...So then there's a pyramid inside the giant block, and the rift is inside it, then?

Message said "another pyramid." Didn't say anything about the pyramid being somewhere else. A recursive pyramid is still "another" pyramid.

Yet it would also be in this pyramid too since the other pyramid is in this one and containment is a transitive relation. I know the text doesn't specify that the gate's not in this pyramid, but it kinda implies it by the use of the word "another".

--------
And one theory of my own:
Well, your gate (as in the in-comic reader's gate, assuming he has one) might be in another pyramid, but Girard's gate might still be here... Why else wouldn't the text say "Sorry, but our gate is in another pyramid.", since the original quote was "...our princess is in another castle."

[DaggerPen]

its been a long time since i did the P&P thing but how exactly did durkon cast detect magic when he said in a previous strip he didnt have it prepared? can somebody more familiar with the recent rules explain it to me?

My personal guess? The spell that skipped the whole "resting in the grave for three days" thing reproduced all the effects of a three-day dirt nap, including replenishing spell slots. Durkula included Detect Magic in this round's spell lineup.

[Everfreefire]

(or encased in stone? Is that possible, or would the rift, like, I dunno, unmake the stone?)

Considering how Soon's gate was set up, I'm fairly certain it would be possible to seal the gate in something, then just surround the whole thing in concrete without any real damage to either the seal or the concrete.

I have to wonder, though...How far underground are they at this point? And if they are underground, how did they manage to properly find the rift the first time, and why would a giant elaborate pyramid make a better way to guard it than just leaving it buried?

[Bird]

Perhaps he'll keep quiet about it.
Possible. The Order may not be standing in the same spot, either -- possible that Roy has maneuvered his party around.

I wonder if there's any chance of Nale getting hit again by the runes on his way out. Roy was worried about that happening to the Order...

[Forikroder]

why are people getting caught up on the wording? Girards not a Paladin and the stone slab can ignore a zone of truth he doesnt ahve to write the truth he could write a straight up lie on it with no consequences


I have to wonder, though...How far underground are they at this point? And if they are underground, how did they manage to properly find the rift the first time, and why would a giant elaborate pyramid make a better way to guard it than just leaving it buried?

in the flashback the rift apeared to be above ground, though Girard could ahve filled the area in magically

as for why build a pyramid: that way you can put traps and dead ends instead of having the only defense be a bunch of dirt

[LuniasM]

When Durkon finally died, Malack made a promise to spare his friends. I can see this going two ways right now:

1. Malack, being Lawful, abides by Durkon's wishes and doesn't reveal the Order to his team.

2. Malack, being on rough terms with Nale, reveals the Order to his team and tells Durkon to stand down. By doing this, he turns the fight into a 3v4 (Durkon's summoned monster could be counted out) and gives them a chance of beating up Nale. Not only does he keep his promise, he gets a show out of it too!

I like the second option better, obviously. There's been a lot of conflict between Malack and Nale in the past few updates, so it would make sense for that to culminate soon.

[SaintRidley]

its been a long time since i did the P&P thing but how exactly did durkon cast detect magic when he said in a previous strip he didnt have it prepared? can somebody more familiar with the recent rules explain it to me?

The two big options are these:

He either got to pick new spells for the day when he got turned into a vampire, or he had left some slots empty today to fill with specialized spells as necessary later and did so during the time lapse while the Order was stuck in the illusion.

[SaintRidley]

I have to wonder, though...How far underground are they at this point? And if they are underground, how did they manage to properly find the rift the first time, and why would a giant elaborate pyramid make a better way to guard it than just leaving it buried?


They're in a desert. Sand shifts, a lot. The rift could easily have been in a space that is now technically underground due to the drifting of sand.

[Niknokitueu]

We all should have seen this coming. Tricky master of illusion, playing a shell game on them all. Just perfect.

Once again I tip my hat to you, sir.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[NMBLNG]

To go along with Haley's double-bluff theory, in order for an illusionist to be effective, at least some of the spells need to be real. A liar needs to say the truth often enough to be trusted as well.

Also, what kind of person would Girard expect to make it past all of his other defenses?

[Porthos]

I will say one thing. There have been a few complaints about the lackluster defenses of the pyramid. About how all of this was 'too easy' for an experienced party to get through.

IF this block in fact is telling the truth, for a certain value of truth, and the Gate isn't in this room, does that satisfy any/some of those complaints?

[skim172]

Heh - I posted that same punchline in an earlier thread. :smallsmile: Although I'm sure I'm not the only one. Awesome.

On-topic, I wonder if Tarkers might've had an inkling about this before he sent Nale in. Maybe he's checking the area for another pyramid right now.

[Saturosian]

Considering how Soon's gate was set up, I'm fairly certain it would be possible to seal the gate in something, then just surround the whole thing in concrete without any real damage to either the seal or the concrete.

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. There would be a gate *first* around the rift. I guess I was thinking the block was the gate or something...Guys, I'm tired.


I have to wonder, though...How far underground are they at this point? And if they are underground, how did they manage to properly find the rift the first time, and why would a giant elaborate pyramid make a better way to guard it than just leaving it buried?

Okay, but now if we're talking about the rift pre-gate, my original concern makes a little more sense, I think. Could the rift have possibly been sucking the sand that fell on top of it through, (to the Snarl's tummy, or the other world, or whatever) so there was a permanent indentation in the sand where the gate was? That would make it easier to find, misuse, etc. Also, even if the rift was buried, that didn't mean the Scribblers weren't afraid that the rift could still grow and weaken the prison further--perhaps they dug it out and put a pyramid there because they didn't want to leave a break in the prison totally unchecked.

(What? No, I'm not just trying to save face... :smalltongue:)

[Vinyadan]

Girard really knew how to turn a treasure hunt into a nightmare.

[JavaScribe]

I will say one thing. There have been a few complaints about the lackluster defenses of the pyramid. About how all of this was 'too easy' for an experienced party to get through.

IF this block in fact is telling the truth, for a certain value of truth, and the Gate isn't in this room, does that satisfy any/some of those complaints?
It means guarding this zone wasn't a high priority, but that still doesn't excuse leaving traps out in the open, disguised only with illusions that can be defeated by True Seeing or undead.

[Giggling Ghast]

Now THAT is a misdirection.

[David Argall]

Where is the gate?
a-right there, in the big rock-Certainly worth a try as long as one is there, but it is so obvious a try. Just about anybody who got this far would test it.
b-in nearby pyramid -Likely, but where is it? Maybe look more at what the stiff said. As suggested, buttcheeks may be cliffs. A few dozen castings of speak with dead may be in order.
c-inside the pyramid-A more likely version of a. And it does make an X vs LG confrontation more likely. But it still makes it pretty easy to find the gate if one decides to check.

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

...Welp. That was certainly a thing that just happened. :smallbiggrin:

[RedWarrior0]

Regarding the coordinates Serini has: they sealed the gates as a team. Though I suppose Soon was there, too, and didn't get the right coordinates.

Unless, of course, the real pyramid is hidden deep under the sand at the coordinates Soon had, even though it doesn't make sense to double-bluff them.

[137beth]

its been a long time since i did the P&P thing but how exactly did durkon cast detect magic when he said in a previous strip he didnt have it prepared? can somebody more familiar with the recent rules explain it to me?

There are a lot of magic items which can allow you to recover spells mid-day, and Malack might have had some spares that he gave to Durkon.
Alternatively, it could very easily be the effect of his transformation.

[Psyren]

Hmm... Why is Nale in such a hurry to get back outside? After coming all that way and getting past both the big dream illusion and the green trap circle, I'd at least take five to examine the room.

On the other hand, perhaps it's occurred to him that they have confined themselves to a small space which is easily surrounded.

I think it's simply that he wants to get there before the Order does (and wakes up some nasty epic gate guardian that can cream his casters.)

Bad news for the Order here though - this is the first gate in the series whose guardian isn't good-aligned. So they may not even get much help out of it. whatever it may be.

[rodneyAnonymous]

There are a lot of magic items which can allow you to recover spells mid-day...

He said he doesn't prepare it. Replenishing spells wouldn't let him cast the spell; he'd need to prepare different spells.

[yuffiek]

Note: We don't see the entire room, It looks quite tall though. Tall enough for a statue of Girard to be on top of that huge block? After all, Soon's gate was tiny enough to be contained in a single sapphire, no reason to think that the Gate is huge and all.

[OctoberRaven]

Why have a monitoring system for your own Gate when you can just pop downstairs for a look?

It might be a spell shared by the other Scribble members.

[Amphiox]

Hmm.

1. a) Perhaps, inside that block is a small pyramid, a different pyramid, another pyramid, and inside that small pyramid is the Gate!
b) "Your gate" says Girard, "is in another pyramid." What he's not saying is "MY (me, Girard's) gate is indeed right here."

2. Malack has True Seeing active and will see the Order hiding behind Elan's illusion once he steps out. BUT that would only be if the Order is still there hiding behind that illusion. It looks like all 5 of the Linear Guild, including both summoned fiends, entered the inner room (very thoughtless of Nale as team leader to allow that). If Roy is on his toes, that gives him a chance to reposition the Order, in flanking positions, outside the door, ready to ambush the Guild on their way out. (Possible title for the next strip would thus be "Sneak Attack!") Perhaps Nale's apparent panic in trying to rush back out is him just realizing that he has left his "six" wide open to ambush.

3. In the last panel, Malack is turned and looking back at the big rock. Is he pondering the possibility of a double bluff? At any rate he doesn't seem to be on the same page as his party "leader" Nale in rushing back out.

[Porthos]

It might be a spell shared by the other Scribble members.

Sure, be logical. :smalltongue: But it is notable that this was the first time we saw that.

Not that I think the Gate is in another pyramid. The more I think about it, the more I think it is in this pyramid (pyramid within a pyramid?), if only to not 'waste' narrative time.

But I am allowing for the possibilty that, yes, Girard really was that paranoid. Even if I don't think it is very likely.

[Rosstin]

Depending on how clever these illusionists are, there could be infinite layers of gate misdirection here... cue the discussions we had a few months ago about how epic spellcasters could hide gates. It's neat to see some of that speculation bearing fruit.

[Joseph_Lavode]

When Durkon finally died, Malack made a promise to spare his friends.

Malack never agreed to that promise. He let Belkar go, but also advised him to get the rest of the Order and leave. I think as far as he's concerned he's given them their warning. He may try again to get them to leave, but he also may just attack.

[t209]

Hey! Mario reference.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"Where is Girard's rift?" "Between his buttcheeks." = "Girard's butt crack is between his buttcheeks."

It was a joke, a metaphorical middle finger. The corpse gave a true but useless answer. There's no way the defender of an artifact would give an actual clue about its location to an invader if that could possibly be avoided.

[SaintRidley]

He said he doesn't prepare it. Replenishing spells wouldn't let him cast the spell; he'd need to prepare different spells.

He doesn't prepare it.*

*when he's alive and working with V. Totally possible he does when his master tells him, I need you to have Detect Magic prepared today. Didn't prepare it earlier? That's fine - prepare it now. You can re-prepare as a result of your transformation/having left a few slots open for emergency preparation.

[rodneyAnonymous]

You can re-prepare as a result of your transformation/having left a few slots open for emergency preparation.

It's possible (but it would be extremely unusual) that the transformation let Durkon re-prepare spells, but you can't just leave slots open and fill them later, can you?

[Amphiox]

Regarding the question of whether or not Girard would have given Serini the correct coordinates to his gate:

Whether he did or not, it doesn't necessarily mean that the coordinates in Serini's diary must be correct. Paranoid Illusionists do not have a monopoly on the deceptive arts. One would expect an Epic Rogue to be as good a liar as anyone, and we certainly can't dismiss the possibility that Serini may have anticipated the possibility of her diary getting into the wrong hands.

For all we know the two of them conspired in it together, and Serini put the false coordinates into her diary in accordance with a decoy trap pyramid Girard deliberately prepared.

[oppyu]

A little late, but...

*laughs hysterically at Nale*

[Cavenskull]

You know... I just realized something. Even if the Gate wasn't in this pyramid (which we can't say one way or the other), Girard's Clan would always know if it had fallen.

Because they were constantly monitoring it via the Color Room near the lunch hall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

I.

I still think it is buried under that slab. But that color wheel gives me a slight pause. Why have a monitoring system for your own Gate when you can just pop downstairs for a look?
Because the monitoring system shows the status of ALL the gates--not just Girard's.

[KillingAScarab]

I don't know much about spellcaster tactics. Why would Zz'dtri cast locate object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm)?


Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails. You cannot specify a unique item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination).

Unless I misunderstand the above, you need to know what the Gate looks like to find it. Plus, it's a 2nd level spell. What would lead a wizard to think it wouldn't be defeated by something guarded by a powerful spellcaster? Is this a display of wizard/sorcerer prejudice outside of Start of Darkness? Perhaps this is simply what Zz'dtri had prepared?

[SaintRidley]

Possible the transformation let Durkon re-prepare spells, but you can't just leave slots open and fill them later, can you?

Just checked the SRD, and it lists that as an option for Wizards (and it's generally expanded to just be a perk of being a prepared caster), but it doesn't say that Clerics can or can't in the SRD.

Although this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050405a) gives a definite yes to Clerics doing it too.

[Gildedragon]

It's possible (but it would be extremely unusual) that the transformation let Durkon re-prepare spells, but you can't just leave slots open and fill them later, can you?

I know wizards can, but believe clerics and druids get their spells at certain times of the day; not allowing for on the fly prep.

Edit: NVM it is stated they can leave slots empty. One assumes it is to prepare later on, though it is not stated.

[ratfox]

That was great :smallbiggrin:

I'm going to bet on Malack not saying anything; I'm also going to bet on the order giving the room a more thorough look and finding out something. Nale is definetely leaving too soon.

By the way, it is true that the natural joke should be "our gate is in another pyramid", instead of "your gate". The simplest explanation is that the Giant did not put much thought into it, but considering the story so far, this train of thought gets me paranoid every time.

[eviljav]

Durkon probably left a slot open and spent 15 minutes preparing detect magic. Or maybe a scroll?

[Scrub]

Just because he says "another pyramid":

a)Doesn't mean he can't be lying

b)Doesn't mean it has to be another Pyramid in the dessert. It could just as easily be a structure located inside the original pyramid

c)Why is there a second room inside of a room?
That makes very little sense in my opinion.
Might be setting up some kind of illusion or gates based on which doors of the center octagonal you go through.


It all just seems to be too obvious and is obviously directed as a ploy to make others leave the Pyramid. Then again....

[eilandesq]

Assuming that--as someone wondered about above--Z either hasn't prepared Disintegrate or doesn't have it on his spell list, there are two high level spellcasters in this world who are well known to rack it and use it: V and Redcloak. If the Linear Guild withdraws (or is defeated in combat, less likely but not impossible), I would deem that it is nearly certain that one of those two casters will use that spell on the cube and reveal Girard's Gate.

[Winter_Wolf]

My first thoughts upon reading 894? 'That was awesome.' Moreso for having read the (relatively) recent thread to the effect of "why do the villians always do this?"

[Messenger]

Would he see any good reason to attack them now? I mean, from their point of view (at least, as far as we know), the mission is over. He may not see it as worth it.Not to mention that he's honorable enough to let them go out of respect for Durkon.

And to put one past Nale. Don't forget that.

[Iferus]

Ah, a Paladin diversion.

[luc258]

There is a big difference between Redcloaks double bluff and the potential Girard's double bluff.
Redcloak's was a nights work.
Girard's is a huge pyramid with heavy maintenance.

If somebody sees through Redcloak's bluff it is not a huge, tremendous problem.
Leaving the gate without fortified defenses is potentially very problematic.
I don't think it is in another pyramid.

[Macros]

I can't really decide if casting True Seeing was bad for the Order or bad for Malack. If the Linear Guild stayed grouped, it would definitely be bad for the Order. But right now, Nale's hastiness coupled with Malack's slow-pacing might mean that when he finds the Order behind their illusory wall, he could be isolated from the rest of the LG.

[Arrowstorm122]

Could go any way now. Is it a bluff, is it inside the room, inside the pyramid, inside the desert, was the buttjoke a hint, does Redcloak and Xykon have the exact right coordinates, or did the halfling just get the coordinates to this place, which seems to be the Draketooth Club Pyramid, at the very least?


Assuming that--as someone wondered about above--Z either hasn't prepared Disintegrate or doesn't have it on his spell list, there are two high level spellcasters in this world who are well known to rack it and use it: V and Redcloak. If the Linear Guild withdraws (or is defeated in combat, less likely but not impossible), I would deem that it is nearly certain that one of those two casters will use that spell on the cube and reveal Girard's Gate.

While Girard could rely on people being fooled, if somebody could crush the cube and reveal the gate, it would be a pretty simplistic defense.

[Messenger]

I wouldn't put it beyond Girard to set his clan up to do the ultimate in misdirection: having them guard a false but over-fortified location, perhaps even to the point of leaving little defense to the actual gate beyond simply hiding it.

Strategically speaking, what purpose does this pyramid serve if the gate is indeed somewhere else? It's a deathtrap. It's hidden in a treacherous environment, got a labyrinthine structure, loaded with traps and illusions, and manned by people dedicated to protecting it. Getting that far and back out without injury and casualties would be a feat. Even with its inhabitants dead, we've seen how dangerous and effective it was.

That said, I don't disagree with the theory that the gate is inside that same pyramid and those words are a lie. The most dangerous liar is the one who can speak the truth as well as lies to gain what he wants.

Additional possibility: the gate is hidden in a more easily reached but conspicuously not-as-well-guarded/protected room in the same pyramid, wherein all who try to find it assume it's somewhere else more secure. In short, one of the upper, more accessible levels.

[ManuelSacha]

Somebody said Girard couldn't cast epic spells, but this looks like EPIC TROLLING to me. :smallbiggrin:

...I'll show myself out. :smallsigh:

[Leirus]

Great strip! Oh, the Draketooths, what terrible, terrible trolls they were, you have to love them!. I hope the get mass resurrected after the end.

This also brings memories to that time when Haley outsmarted Xykon and Redcloack with her "thinking like a rogue" routine, during the invasion of Azure city. It is clear the door is not in that room because of the triple spell search, but I wonder if it still is somewhere in the pyramid. Maybe V will happen upon it.

I also wonder to where is Xykon heading. To this Pyramid? To another location?

[Belsirk]

HE! I'm not sure if Tarquin will laugh for that joke ... however.. Xykon will go directly to the correct one ? (However, as all the family was on that pyramid, seem that one was very important too, or maybe the family is was bigger?)

[HandofShadows]

LOL. I suspected something like that. Girard is all about deception and distraction. The Gate is probably someplace obviouse (not to far away) and we may have already seen it.

[BroomGuys]

Squee. That is all.

[Mike Havran]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u93/Reed_Copperstrand/Girard_new.png Yo adventurers, I herd you like bluffs, so we put a decoy into our decoy so you can get trolled while getting trolled

[Nymrod]

I would like to hug Girard right now, but I am kind of opposed to hugging skeletons:)

[Hopeless]

I have a few queries;

1) The doors leading to the chamber outside that had the illusion wards, how many are there?

If only two then its likely Nale and co will leave via them, but if there's a third then maybe a chance the Order will head out there to avoid being seen once they come outside and that might lead to the actual gate room...

2) Assuming Girard expected undead as the most likely means of breaking through his illusions a simple stone block would prevent them discovering the gate inside.

Most likeliest opening mechanism is some of the wording on that block perhaps a little too simple though!:smallwink:

3) Hopefully Roy will move the others to the otherside of that inner chamber so they can't be seen once Nale and co come back out as well as scope out whats going on since the spellcasters are busy casting spells so they could have an episode with them looking inside behind Nale's group or at least Haley before moving out of sight before they give up their search...

4)This is a pyramid located inside another pyramid already... wasn't there a statue in the opening chamber under which Girard was buried so theoretically this block is located underneath that statue... no I'm grasping at straws with this!

Hey what are the odds the password for that stone block is "Girard"?:smallsmile:

[Ron Miel]

Note: We don't see the entire room, It looks quite tall though. Tall enough for a statue of Girard to be on top of that huge block? After all, Soon's gate was tiny enough to be contained in a single sapphire, no reason to think that the Gate is huge and all.

Picture of Girard's gate
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

[Nymrod]

I am really starting to wonder, what does Nale's puny, puny mind thing it can do if he gets his hands in a pyramid that he was so excited to find it?

[The Succubus]

Girrad Draketooth - Epic Level Troll.

[Lombard]

Picture of Girard's gate
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Perhaps, but don't forget that the person telling the story had never seen Girard's gate before.

[Mastikator]

I can't shake this nagging feeling that because of this they'll have to spend extra time finding another pyramid, which they have a total of zero clues where it could be, though Xykon knows where it is, meaning they probably don't have time on their side anymore, meaning Durkon died for nothing. :smallfrown:

[Edhelras]

I suggest this:

The Gate is actually inside that rather small structure pictured in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0892.html). But when Nale triggered that trap/spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html), he and his teammates got caught in an illusion. In that illusion, he (and his comrades - even undead? a weak point, there...) believe that they enter the central structure, while in fact they're only lost in yet another dream sequence. They believe they did cast those divination spells, but in fact it was just a dream. Which would, incidentally, explain how Durkon could cast Detect magic without having it prepared.

Actually, that discrepancy, and possibly what I feel is a mismatch between the outside dimensions of that central structure, and how large it looks on the inside, could be two possible clues to realize that it's just an illusion, and get another will-save.

But as noted - I'm unsure how it would be possible to catch undead like Malack and Durkon in an illusion like that. Are there any special illusions available for epic illusionists like Girard? It would be rather strange, though, if Girard would rely on hiding the Gate in such a way that an undead character simply could see through it. Surely Girard would be aware of undead and their resistance to his charms.

[Ron Miel]

Perhaps, but don't forget that the person telling the story had never seen Girard's gate before.

Not personally, but he was speaking with knowledge passed on by Soon, who certainly did see the gate.

[Yendor]

Well, that was a nice way of presenting a moderately predictable twist. :smallsmile:

[Rowan Mikaio]

Perhaps, but don't forget that the person telling the story had never seen Girard's gate before.


SOD spoilers

That's true, but his depictions of Lirian's and Dorukan's gates, which we have seen but he hadn't, have still proven accurate. It's likely that the other gates are equally likely to be at least similar to his depiction.

[Clistenes]

Called it!


Question: What if Girard conned all his family into protecting a fake gate, while the real one is hidden somewhere else? He is an illusionist, he believes in using lies and deceit, and you know "you have to deceive you allies in order to deceive your enemies".

Girard had to foresee that a descendant of him would eventually make a blunder or betray the family's task: They were supposed to protect the Gate forever, and it seems impossible that none of them will ever fail...so why not using a fake gate to protect the real one?

Of course, this is a double red herring, and the real gate is hidden somewhere around the pyramid...

...Unless Girard predicted that we would guess that, and that gate around the pyramid is yet another red herring and the real real gate really isn't close to the pyramid. A triple red herring...

...Unless Girard predicted that we would figure that, and the fake gate around the pyramid is in fact a real gate disguised as a fake gate with epic magic...

...Unless...

[LuPuWei]

Bwa ha ha ha! Thank you, G! :smallbiggrin:

[Arceus]

Brilliant joke.

I think that the Gate is in the pyramid, as there is nothing to stop Girard lying. He has done it before, after all. Whether or not it will be V who stumble across it... we shall see.

[gerryq]

There could be another pyramid under the block.

I wonder if Tarquin would have appreciated the joke, given that he wore his 'NOPE' balaclava under his helmet in the heat.

As for Nale, maybe he's channelling some of Elan's genre savvy - could this be a trap (time bomb style)?

[Aran Thule]

4)This is a pyramid located inside another pyramid already... wasn't there a statue in the opening chamber under which Girard was buried so theoretically this block is located underneath that statue... no I'm grasping at straws with this!


Im thinking along a similar line, given we have found pyramids in the real world with small pyramids inside them why should this be any different?
My thought is that the stone block with the writing is the top block of the inner pyramid.

[Yamian]

BTW #847 - Detect Magic was not cas, because V was taking a nap... So not everything was done.

Anyway... You are a well known illusionist. If some will be looking for your gate, they will be prepared for the illusions. So the best thing would be to not rely solely on the illusions. A large stone block can do the trick.

Does anyone have a chisel?

I suppose they are still some unexplored rooms near the place Malack and Durkon fought... Maybe there is another pyramid inside the pyarmid (inside another pyramid)... So there are still places to check.

Or it can simply be true. Why would Girrard do that though? Not mentioning anything would make the attackers search this (empty?) pyramid if just to waste their time and resources.

So I assume the text is a lie. The lawful paladins would most likely go to look for another pyramid outside of this one...

I would break the stone block to pieces and go from there.

Girrad Trolltooth. Fixed that for future generations.

[toughluck]

Amazing comic strip. It looks like Girard was paranoid. So paranoid that he didn't even trust his family to protect the gate. In effect, they were all guarding one big fat lie.

I actually though that the gate is buried under tons of sand and that Xykon will technically be in the vicinity of the gate, but it turns out it will not be found by Xykon.

This, of course, brings up another question: Was Girard so paranoid as to distrust Serini? Will she have the right coordinates, or only the coordinates to the ziggurat?


If it was the drow casting true seeing I think they might have a problem, but given his promise to Durkon, it's possible that he won't say a word.
Aren't undead immune to simple illusions like Silent Image? So, wouldn't Malack and Durkon have already seen the illusion?

[Jiggs]

LOL !!!

Congratulations to everyone who suspected this to be a decoy!


Also, meanwhile in Another Pyramid
:xykon: Hey, shouldn't there be any heros here?
:redcloak: I would think so.
:mitd: Maybe they got lost and went to Another Pyramid? Let's wait for them.

:xykon::redcloak: NO!!

[elros]

EDIT: Wait, hold on. Malack just cast True Seeing. And now they're headed back out to where the Order is.

Oh dear.

If it was the drow casting true seeing I think they might have a problem, but given his promise to Durkon, it's possible that he won't say a word.
Malack and Durkon will not out the Order. The Giant has made it very clear that Malack is about business, and he will certainly not break a promise so just Nale can fulfill his desire to kill them.
I'm just wondering how the Giant will work that in...

[Orzel]

I want a Girard trollface avatar now

[Needle]

Also, meanwhile in Another Pyramid
:xykon: Hey, shouldn't there be any heros here?
:redcloak: I would think so.

This :smalleek:

[Jiggs]

Hmm... Why is Nale in such a hurry to get back outside? After coming all that way and getting past both the big dream illusion and the green trap circle, I'd at least take five to examine the room.

On the other hand, perhaps it's occurred to him that they have confined themselves to a small space which is easily surrounded.

The character of Nale seems to me rather too impatient when expecting sucess to go arround and think when it doesn't present itself as he expects.

[Syncro]

Lol, one of the best trolls ever

[Leirus]

Doubt... if the Door had been somewhere in that giant rock, I gather any of the three spells would have found it? Or were those spells cast upon the message itself? Does it make any difference?

[Nohar]

True seeing is going to be a problem for that illusion Elan put up.

Uh-oh. True. Well, unless Malack decides to ignore the Order (to piss off Nale or to respect the wishes of the "Durkon-that-was"), they are going to have a problem. But, honestly, I'm not too worried. Malack is more concerned by Nale's demise, and I guess he will ditch him as soon as he completed the hidden agenda he shares with Tarquin.

Speaking of which... Where is Tarquin?

[Kish]

Aren't undead immune to simple illusions like Silent Image? So, wouldn't Malack and Durkon have already seen the illusion?
No, undead do not have a permanent True Seeing effect.

[luc258]

Picture of Girard's gate
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Thanks for finding that strip.
Judging from the picture it seems like the gate is on ground level. The sarcophagus of who presumably is Girard is above ground, so the theory of the gate being there is probably wrong.
The question about the cube remains though. They moved down, but we can't tell if the cube room is underground or if they are just at the bottom of the pyramid but still above groundlevel.

[Sylthia]

Guess we have 7 more pyramids to go through, now.

[Obscure Blade]

Speaking of which... Where is Tarquin?Last we saw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) he was in the semi-open area; looks like the spot where Girard's statue is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html).

[DigoDragon]

Of course, this is a double red herring, and the real gate is hidden somewhere around the pyramid...

I think that giant block IS the gate, because I pulled such a stunt on my players once.

After battling through a dungeon filled with illusions to find an artifact, no one in my party suspected that the non-magical wall at the end was the container for the artifact. The wall was just a large glass box covered in stucco.
Some of the greatest illusions aren't magical at all. :smallbiggrin:

[Hopeless]

You know I just had a thought, do we actually know what that ward Nale set off actually does?

Yes it did damage to him but what else?

Girard was an epic sorceror, paranoid yes but still if it was me I'd have it set off something as they entered so they think they've entered the inner chamber when they've been teleported elsewhere and when coming back out find themselves either outside the pyramid outside or in the entry chamber a trick seen in quite a few d&d adventures...:smallcool:

This would mean Nale and co miss the others waiting outside because they've been sent elsewhere and that inner chamber is now empty leaving them perplexed as ot what has happened.

Since Mallack removed the ward this would prevent the order being similarly teleported and in regards to the area being impervious to teleportation that should only apply to anyone other than the creator of the place, wouldn't it?:smallwink:

So that message would be accurate its just there to make them think they're in the wrong place... hmm that might work better if the route they follow afetr leaving matches the area they came through but only as long as their suspicions aren't raised... no it would be funnier if they're teleported outside when they leave that inner chamber:smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

I cannot say I'm surprised, but... men, to see it, it's another whole thing. Priceless! :smallbiggrin:

[Yamian]

Thanks for finding that strip.
Judging from the picture it seems like the gate is on ground level. The sarcophagus of who presumably is Girard is above ground, so the theory of the gate being there is probably wrong.
The question about the cube remains though. They moved down, but we can't tell if the cube room is underground or if they are just at the bottom of the pyramid but still above groundlevel. Good god. There is nothing about building a pyramid around it. OTOH there is nothing about Dorukan's dungeon either....

What if the gate is just somewhere in the desert? And all pyramids are just decoys...

[One Skunk Todd]

Picture of Girard's gate
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

I notice the rolling hills shown there don't seem to match the flat-topped steep-sided mesas of where they are now.

I'm still holding out hope for an inverted pyramid underneath this one though.

And I like how a who-knows-how-many-years-dead Girard still regularly inspires people to yell no no no! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html :)

[Lord Raziere]

hah! Girard. say what you will about his paranoia. but he knows how to misdirect and mislead.

and he has a good sense of humor to.

[Dracon1us]

Priceless...
Giant , you just made your Prestige

after all,


"where is Girard's Rift" ?
"it lay between Girard's butttcheeks"

[Harry Leipzig]

:smallbiggrin: Oh Nale, you've been made a fool of. Again. If only you were a bard like your brother, you would've seen this potentially coming.

I personally subscribe to the theory that it is a physical illusion. The gate is probably inside the monolith. Though there is a good chance that it really is in another pyramid. Still, I'm leaning towards the former.

I know people are throwing around the idea that the figure Haley sees is something related to the ward, but I thought it was an astral projection of one of the Azure city wizards trying to contact the Order on Hinjo's behalf.

[pendell]

*Applauds madly*

That. was. PERFECT! .

Be that as it may, I don't believe the sign. We're too far into the arc to go on a quest to yet another pyramid. The gate is here, I'm sure of it.



Oh, wow. The gate is a lie :D.


*Smack*

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Xelbiuj]

Guess we have 7 more pyramids to go through, now.

Just hope he doesn't have a gargantuan beetle guarding the gate.
lol, I got that D2 vibe too, Mario plus Act 2.

[Michaeler]

Personally I expect the gate to be hidden elsewhere in this pyramid.

That said, so much for this gate being so vulnerable once the guards died...

[OverlordJ]

I've been thinking about if the gate could be inside the block but then Locate Object should have found it, shouldn't it?
And if the block was magical to block Locate Object, shouldn't Detect Magic have found out about it?

But then I thought about it some more. 1 foot of stone blocks Detect Magic.
And the stone block is definatly thicker then that. So if the block is hollow but it's walls are thicker then 1 foot, Detect Magic is blocked. And inside, another spell (maybe something like Polymorph Any Object) could hide the gate from Locate Object.
True Seeing would also be blocked by the normal stone.

So that would be a way to hide the gate inside the block with none of the three spells detecting it. I think.

[Nymrod]

Good god, if there actually are multiple pyramids, how many dead Draketooths are there? The family tree we get to see is pretty limited which suggests that that's it.

Another vote on the gate being hidden inside that block of stone. For one thing, I am sure that if the Order was checking for the gate and not Nale, Roy and Haley would have certainly considered it a bluff and tried to dig through the stone cube anyway.

[Ghost Nappa]

Priceless...
Giant , you just made your Prestige

after all,


"where is Girard's Rift" ?
"it lay between Girard's butttcheeks"

Wait, The Giant used a Sarcastic Confession?

Quick, To Girard's Corpse!

[Lecan]

The corpse they used "Speak with Dead" on said that the rift lay between Girard's Buttcheeks... which I'm going to bet means that there are a pair of small hills that got nicknamed Girard's Buttcheeks.
Right, because that's a thing people do. Just like we nicknamed Florida 'George Washington's wang'.

[The Pilgrim]

Super Mario quote for the win!

Way to go, Giriard. :smallbiggrin:

[Marlowe]

Right, because that's a thing people do. Just like we nicknamed Florida 'George Washington's wang'.

Nah, that's "Andrew Jackson's Raspberry"

[Mr. Scaly]

I think that giant block IS the gate, because I pulled such a stunt on my players once.

After battling through a dungeon filled with illusions to find an artifact, no one in my party suspected that the non-magical wall at the end was the container for the artifact. The wall was just a large glass box covered in stucco.
Some of the greatest illusions aren't magical at all. :smallbiggrin:

:smallbiggrin: That was my guess too. An illusionist of Girard's level would know that.

But hoo boy, is Nale going to be mad about this! I can just picture the sarcasm from Tarquin!

[One Skunk Todd]

Girrad Trolltooth. Fixed that for future generations.

Draketroll gives me a mental image of a half dragon half troll with trollface for a face. :) Although it doesn't roll off the tongue quite as smoothly as Trolltooth.

[Threeshades]

The entire pyramid was a decoy? In hindsight that does seem like exactly what a master illusionist would do.

[Adeptus]

Trololol! http://zamolxismd.org/m/web.tiscali.it/druzya/immagini/trollface_small.png

Though honestly, I don't buy it. The gate will be here, Nale is just being a fool, as per usual.

[feo2]

Great page Giant, and i hate to say this but the Mario gag is off. the line is "Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!". it's a case of Pop Cultural Osmosis. though as it is recognized as mario the sentiment is still there.

[Xelbiuj]

Great page Giant, and i hate to say this but the Mario gag is off. the line is "Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!". it's a case of Pop Cultural Osmosis. though as it is recognized as mario the sentiment is still there.

"Thank You" wouldn't make any sense but in relation to a Mario reference exact quote.

Thank you for slaughtering everyone defending the pyramid?

[Gift Jeraff]

Thank you for testing out our defenses and showing us what needs fixing?

[p59w]

Note: We don't see the entire room, It looks quite tall though. Tall enough for a statue of Girard to be on top of that huge block? After all, Soon's gate was tiny enough to be contained in a single sapphire, no reason to think that the Gate is huge and all.

Maybe the gate is in an item already possessed by the party - perhaps on the collar of - no wait there was a movie doing that already.

[drachefly]

Ha! I was just reading the RSS of today's Captain SNES with Samus Aran calling Golbez a fool in most emphatic terms, and I click through my RSS feeds. Up comes OotS and bam, Nale is getting called a fool.
Awesome coincidence.

As to this strip in itself... I... I would be a bit more quick to check this one out. I wonder whether it's another trap. The folks with low WIS scores seem like they're in an awfully big hurry to leave.

But there are enough pyramids around here, it could very well be elsewhere.

[Mighty_Chicken]

Hah! Villains can be terribly unlucky, too.

[Aenghus]

hmmm

That's a big box. There may be room for a lead lined pyramid in that box.

[Chessgeek]

Bahahaha! Brilliant! It never gets old seeing Nale tortured like this.

[AgentofHellfire]

You know, I have to wonder if this is a case of high-level adventurers expecting really high quality, magic traps falling for the basic and obvious trick in front of them.

[toughluck]

That's a frustum that the block is in, isn't it? A frustum is a cut-top pyramid, so it could technically still count as a pyramid. It's feasible that the block says something true -- the gate is in another pyramid, hidden within this ziggurat.

Or it's buried deep in the sand...

Or the entrance to the structure is a teleport and without knowing the right code word, it puts you in a pocket dimension without you realizing this. It might even have a limitless number of such dimensions, each for a separate group of adventurers.


The Gate is actually inside that rather small structure pictured in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0892.html). But when Nale triggered that trap/spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html), he and his teammates got caught in an illusion. In that illusion, he (and his comrades - even undead? a weak point, there...) believe that they enter the central structure, while in fact they're only lost in yet another dream sequence. They believe they did cast those divination spells, but in fact it was just a dream. Which would, incidentally, explain how Durkon could cast Detect magic without having it prepared.
We see OotS in the same picture as Nale entering the structure, so I'd say an illusion is not possible.

But as noted - I'm unsure how it would be possible to catch undead like Malack and Durkon in an illusion like that. Are there any special illusions available for epic illusionists like Girard?

Girard was an epic sorceror, paranoid yes but still if it was me (...)
Is it established that Girard was an epic sorcerer? As far as I know, and it's been stated in this thread already, he's not.

No, undead do not have a permanent True Seeing effect.

Thanks. I wonder where I got that misconception from. I'd guess cRPGs...

[p59w]

2. Malack has True Seeing active and will see the Order hiding behind Elan's illusion once he steps out. BUT that would only be if the Order is still there hiding behind that illusion..

Doesn't true seeing require you to look in the direction you reveal? They came in a different door - they could be blocked from seeing the illusion by the walls of that little building in the middle, correct?

[Gift Jeraff]

The small pyramid within the pyramid idea seems plausible, what with the geometry theme we got going here. (Rectangular prism inside of an octagonal frustum inside a seemingly hexagonal room.) But we've no reason to even think the slab tells the truth. It could just as easily be inside of a seemingly natural rock in the canyon.

[One Skunk Todd]

Thank you for testing out our defenses and showing us what needs fixing?

Maybe the Draketooths are like the Magratheans:

"It is most gratifying that your enthusiasm for our planet continues unabated. And so we would like to assure you that the guided missiles currently converging with your ship are part of a special service we extend to all of our most enthusiastic clients… And the fully armed nuclear warheads are, of course, merely a courtesy detail. We look forward to your custom in future lives. Thank you."

[snikrept]

I'm guessing Malack sees the gate, or guesses where the gate is, but doesn't respond (much like he saw the trap and let Nale walk into it). Zzdtri's spell is the only one known to have failed.

[RedneckTex95]

That was great. Hahaha!

[Severus Drape]

Wait a minute, where exactly did Durkon get that Detect Magic from?

[Vinsfeld]

Wait a minute, where exactly did Durkon get that Detect Magic from?

Great question :smalleek:

[Deepbluediver]

The small pyramid within the pyramid idea seems plausible, what with the geometry theme we got going here. (Rectangular prism inside of an octagonal frustum inside a seemingly hexagonal room.) But we've no reason to even think the slab tells the truth. It could just as easily be inside of a seemingly natural rock in the canyon.

I'm sure some one has already brought this up, but if Girard's words are true, then why is it necessary to have them be printed so large? It seems to me like a much smaller sign would have done the trick. I suspect that this room is important in some way, even if it's not because it holds the gate. Perhaps a portal (magical or otherwise) to the actual gate?

Also, unless Nale manages to get himself killed on the way back out, this doesn't really put the OotS any closer to beating the Linear Guild, Tarquin, or Xykon. Unless V is about to pop out of the wall somewhere, anyway.


Edit: Reread the comic; a non-magical staircase just leading deeper into the pyramid and covered by a stone block would seem fairly simple and should fool all three spells. (not an illusion, not magical, and wont "ping" on locate object if you're not looking for it).

[toughluck]

I'm sure some one has already brought this up, but if Girard's words are true, then why is it necessary to have them be printed so large?

The same reason why there is a ziggurat with an intricate labyrinth with death traps inside. Style and flair! Or, a very much 'in your face' statement -- one that is sure to let you know that you've failed to find the gate.